Speaker 1: It's in the news today, but it was actually on
Speaker 1: TV Reload the podcast last week Nebline. Welcome back guys
Speaker 1: to TV Reload. My name is Benjamin Norris, and on
Speaker 1: this podcast I go behind the scenes with the biggest
Speaker 1: players in television. Each episode you will get a front
Speaker 1: row seat with content makers like executive producers, writers, editors,
Speaker 1: and casting agents, plus the talent that we see on
Speaker 1: our screens. TV Reload reloads the shows that you are
Speaker 1: currently watching and gives you a better insight into our
Speaker 1: television industry and our streaming services. Today, on the podcast,
Speaker 1: I have director Nick Sweeney who is here to discuss
Speaker 1: his latest HBO documentary called Santa Camp, which premier is
Speaker 1: today on Foxtel. The feature film is a heartwarming true
Speaker 1: story following one organization's journey to incorporate more diversity in
Speaker 1: the Santa industry. Santa Camp is about Santa's in America
Speaker 1: going on a summer camp each year. But I can
Speaker 1: tell you it is so much more than that. I
Speaker 1: personally came across this documentary and fell in love with
Speaker 1: it. It's not just a Christmas film explores the themes about
Speaker 1: diversity and inclusion in a way that I really didn't expect,
Speaker 1: and I also fell in love with these different Santas,
Speaker 1: which I'm sure you will too. I will ask the
Speaker 1: director Nick, how we came across this story, where and
Speaker 1: what were the biggest surprises he unearthed. Along the way,
Speaker 1: we will talk about the need for community and where
Speaker 1: we are at with ignorance towards minorities. However, let's get
Speaker 1: started with today's guest. I'd like to welcome Nick Sweeney
Speaker 1: to TV reload.
Speaker 2: How could this exist? How has nobody done a documentary
Speaker 2: about this? The issue we run into is that people
Speaker 2: just have a very specific idea of what Sander Struld
Speaker 2: look like. When I started making a documentary about Christmas
Speaker 2: and Santa Clauses, I had no idea that I would
Speaker 2: be standing face to face with white supremacists.
Speaker 3: I want to be able to be black Santa for
Speaker 3: other families.
Speaker 2: There's all this pressure that people have around you know
Speaker 2: what their Christmas should be and what the censor should
Speaker 2: look like. Have you always seen Santa's being white? Yes,
Speaker 2: the variety of stanswers that come at any differentiation. For
Speaker 2: a lot of misunderstanding of prejudice just comes from the
Speaker 2: fact that people aren't really exposed to people that aren't
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 3: If I saw a Translanta when I was a kid,
Speaker 3: and what.
Speaker 2: I made a difference for you? Yeah, I think audiences
Speaker 2: don't want to feel lectured or preached to or you know,
Speaker 2: judged by the things that they're watching.
Speaker 3: Heinick, Thanks for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Then, you know, Santa Camp is an interesting idea for
Speaker 1: a documentary because I don't even think I realized what
Speaker 1: I was in for.
Speaker 2: I had no idea that this thing even existed. Like
Speaker 2: I had been interested in how Santa Clauses learned to
Speaker 2: Santa Claus and I had started looking at these different
Speaker 2: Santa schools that they have in America, and it being America,
Speaker 2: of course there was a summer camp for Santa Clauses,
Speaker 2: and you know, a real summer camp, like a summer
Speaker 2: camp where they sleep in bunk beds and where they
Speaker 2: go out on the lake and where they sit around
Speaker 2: a campfire telling stories. And as soon as I found
Speaker 2: out about that as a documentary filmmaker, my mind just
Speaker 2: started spinning, like how could this exist? How has nobody
Speaker 2: done a documentary about this? Like where is this? How
Speaker 2: many of them are there, and so I made contact
Speaker 2: with the organizers of it, this established Santa Claus group
Speaker 2: called the New England Santa Society. And I mean, all
Speaker 2: of this just sounds so like surreal and far fetched,
Speaker 2: but it's all real. And so I made contact with
Speaker 2: them and I just asked them all these questions, like
Speaker 2: how many Santas go and they were like around one hundred.
Speaker 2: I was like, what, Like what do they learn? And
Speaker 2: then they told me about some of the courses and
Speaker 2: then I was like, and is there anything this year
Speaker 2: that be a little bit different, Like is the Santa
Speaker 2: industry changing? And they said, yeah, we've been getting requests
Speaker 2: for Santas from different backgrounds, like requests for black Santas
Speaker 2: or Santas who are LGBTQ, and you know, we don't
Speaker 2: have those people in our membership, so we've been wanting
Speaker 2: to do outreach. And as soon as they told me that,
Speaker 2: I was like, Wow, this is about so much more
Speaker 2: than just this completely ridiculous and insane summer camp. This
Speaker 2: is about this like big thing that's happening in the world.
Speaker 1: People who are listening to this now they probably haven't
Speaker 1: seen this documentary, so which just you just have to
Speaker 1: watch this movie because it's so much more than what
Speaker 1: you think you're getting into. And I can imagine that's
Speaker 1: how you were. You're like, this sounds amazing, But I
Speaker 1: don't even think you would have known what you were.
Speaker 3: Going to unearth by making, oh, this story.
Speaker 2: No, I mean, when I started making a documentary about
Speaker 2: Christmas and Santa Clauses, I had no idea that I
Speaker 2: would be standing face to face with you know, white supremacists,
Speaker 2: like the groups that you know were involved in the
Speaker 2: January sixth insurrection. And I had no idea that I
Speaker 2: would be, you know, hearing some of the stories of
Speaker 2: what the Santors that we follow go through, which is
Speaker 2: very heartbreaking. One of those incredibly heartbreaking stories is the
Speaker 2: Black center that we follow. His name is Chris. He's
Speaker 2: a huge Christmas fan and he had put up an
Speaker 2: inflatable black Santa Claus on his lawn and received a
Speaker 2: racist letter about it, and he was, you know, he
Speaker 2: was so shocked by this and taken aback that his
Speaker 2: way of pushing back against that racism was to go
Speaker 2: to Santa Camp and become Santa Claus himself for his community.
Speaker 2: So I certainly never thought that this would be as
Speaker 2: kind of multi dimensional. When I started making it, I
Speaker 2: thought it might be a fun Christmas film. I never
Speaker 2: thought it'd be you know, it's very high stakes and
Speaker 2: dramatic and sometimes it's very heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: Well to me, this isn't a story about Santa or Christmas.
Speaker 1: I think it's about division and communities and the example
Speaker 1: of how far we still the examples of how far
Speaker 1: we still have to go when it comes to tolerance
Speaker 1: and equality. And that's not what you think you're going
Speaker 1: to get when you're going to watch a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of men and women go to Santa Camp.
Speaker 2: It's really not. I think people see Christmas movie and
Speaker 2: they think it's going to be like Reese with a
Speaker 2: Spoon loses her job in the city and goes home
Speaker 2: to the town that she grew up in and falls
Speaker 2: in love with her high school sweetheart. And that's not
Speaker 2: what Santa Camp is. And I'm really grateful that we
Speaker 2: got to make a Christmas movie that really like up
Speaker 2: ends people's expectations and hopefully makes them laugh and cry.
Speaker 2: I still cry sometimes, Actually quite a few times, I
Speaker 2: find myself weeping at some of the things that we
Speaker 2: show in the film.
Speaker 1: What do you think, though, do you think that people
Speaker 1: are set up to be surprised by the themes in
Speaker 1: this film.
Speaker 2: I think people will be very surprised by what they
Speaker 2: see in the film. I think they kind of will
Speaker 2: go in and expecting it to be about, you know,
Speaker 2: these what they might think are kind of one dimensional
Speaker 2: Christmas performers, right Like, people might see this film and
Speaker 2: think it's going to be you know, about bleaching your
Speaker 2: beard or you know, dealing with kids that pee on
Speaker 2: your leg, which are obviously, you know, real problems that
Speaker 2: Santa's do have to think about. But I think they'll
Speaker 2: be surprised to see how kind of big and important
Speaker 2: the themes that we follow are. And I mean another
Speaker 2: theme that's really fascinating is within the Sansor society that
Speaker 2: organizes this summer camp, the Missus clauses have been calling
Speaker 2: for equal pay and equal billing. And it's incredible that
Speaker 2: within this sensor community these same issues that affect women
Speaker 2: all throughout the world. These issues are bubbling to the surface.
Speaker 2: And yes they may be dressed as Missus clauses and
Speaker 2: they may have like Christmas bells on, but they're still
Speaker 2: talking about these real issues that affect people like equality
Speaker 2: and representation and equal pay, and it's really fun to
Speaker 2: see how they like grapple with these issues in the film.
Speaker 1: I just assumed that you wanted to go into this
Speaker 1: land of Christmas to talk about, you know, because this
Speaker 1: it unearths so much about equality and inclusion, and I
Speaker 1: just thought you must have gone, oh, this is a
Speaker 1: really safe or interesting space to get people to understand
Speaker 1: some of those themes a little bit better. But that
Speaker 1: isn't the way that you came into it.
Speaker 2: I actual actually made a very controversial and complicated documentary
Speaker 2: about abortion rights before Santa Camp. That documentary was called
Speaker 2: Aka Jane Rowe and it was about the woman behind
Speaker 2: Roe v. Wade and reproductive rights, a heavy subject matter,
Speaker 2: and I had thought after that, let's do something really
Speaker 2: fun and accessible and bright, And that's what I thought
Speaker 2: Santa Camp was going to be. I didn't think it
Speaker 2: was going to be this big, thoughtful, like, I really
Speaker 2: didn't think that this film was going to be about
Speaker 2: the most important issue in the world, you know, representation
Speaker 2: and diversity. Like I thought this would be fun because
Speaker 2: I had just made a very political documentary for the
Speaker 2: last one, and you know, I was a little exhausted
Speaker 2: by that. I thought Santa Camp was going to be
Speaker 2: a little more fun, and it is.
Speaker 3: It is still has you haven't let that go.
Speaker 1: And I think that's the beauty in the intelligence behind
Speaker 1: this is that it is.
Speaker 3: Enjoyable to watch.
Speaker 1: Even the emotion when you do find yourself tearing up
Speaker 1: with what's happening, It's still an emotive and enjoyable film
Speaker 1: to watch. There's nothing uncomfortable to me. I did learn
Speaker 1: a lot, and I've wanted to ask you do you
Speaker 1: think that, you know, educating people is getting harder and
Speaker 1: harder now that the term woke kind of has a
Speaker 1: bad connotation to it.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think, and you know a little bit on
Speaker 2: your previous question about you know, what were the intentions, Like, obviously,
Speaker 2: these issues around representation and equality are very intriguing to me,
Speaker 2: and so when I found out that the censor of
Speaker 2: society were thinking about these things and kind of figuring
Speaker 2: out how to adapt CENTA to you know, the year
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, I was definitely intrigued by that. It's
Speaker 2: not something that we shied away from. And I think
Speaker 2: your question about like, is it hard to cover these
Speaker 2: things when there is a kind of stigma or backlash
Speaker 2: around the idea of wokeness. Yeah, I think audiences don't
Speaker 2: want to feel lectured or preached to or you know,
Speaker 2: judged by the things that they're watching. And I think
Speaker 2: think we're very lucky in this film because the characters
Speaker 2: are so fun and interesting and wild and they're liars,
Speaker 2: you know. The characters that we follow go on these rollercoasters,
Speaker 2: you know, like the Santa with the disability that we
Speaker 2: follow early in the film, he says he wants to
Speaker 2: be in a parade and that's his dream, and you know,
Speaker 2: we see the twists in terms of his story as
Speaker 2: he tries to make his dreams come true. And so,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't think this film feels like it's
Speaker 2: educating people. I think it just feels like a very entertaining,
Speaker 2: immersive trip through the wild lives of some unconventional clauses.
Speaker 3: It would bother me if the word work here.
Speaker 1: I am bringing it up again and again, But it
Speaker 1: would bother me if people were thinking that this movie
Speaker 1: is like a woke film, because it's not.
Speaker 3: You know, it's not what that is.
Speaker 1: And that's why I was interested to know about your
Speaker 1: relationship with that term.
Speaker 2: Well, I am Pakistani Australian and I'm gay. I feel
Speaker 2: like I, you know, have seen firsthand through my life
Speaker 2: experiences how important representation is. But I also really do
Speaker 2: see this backlash to the idea of anything that feels
Speaker 2: educational or preachy, like audiences really get turned off by that.
Speaker 2: And I think we've seen that with a lot of
Speaker 2: recent things, like you know, the movie Bros. For example,
Speaker 2: where I think, you know, audiences really show up for
Speaker 2: that film. And so it is certainly something that you
Speaker 2: think about when you're making a movie like Santa Can.
Speaker 2: It's something that the producer Stacey, and the editor Lese
Speaker 2: and myself really thought about, you know, like how do
Speaker 2: we make this about the characters that we're following rather
Speaker 2: than any sort of like social issues feel which I
Speaker 2: think can turn people off.
Speaker 1: I've been walking around talking about Santa Levi and Santa
Speaker 1: Chris and Fin set A Finn. Yes, I loved all
Speaker 1: of them. I just thought they were such gorgeous characters.
Speaker 1: But I thought that, you know, the transcend element was
Speaker 1: interestingly placed up against the person of color Santa and
Speaker 1: the special needs Santa, because you are sort of cross
Speaker 1: polat across a few different broader topics, but each one
Speaker 1: of them kind of helped unearth a little bit more
Speaker 1: understanding out of the audience with the other story stacked
Speaker 1: up against it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, each of the Santor's experiences are so different.
Speaker 2: I mean, this film takes place across three completely different
Speaker 2: parts of America. We've got Chris, who's a black Santa
Speaker 2: and he's in the South, and then we've got Levi,
Speaker 2: who's a transgender center he's in Chicago and the Midwest.
Speaker 2: And then we've got a cluster of Santors in the
Speaker 2: New England area. And so, you know, each of their
Speaker 2: experiences are very different. And the way that for example,
Speaker 2: Chris the Center who's black, experiences racism and relation to
Speaker 2: being a you know, a black Santa is very different
Speaker 2: to what we see with Levi the transgender center, who
Speaker 2: when he puts on a event in Chicago where LGBTQ
Speaker 2: kids get to meet him, the Proud Boys show up,
Speaker 2: and you know, for anybody who doesn't know it doesn't
Speaker 2: kind of follow that part of US politics. The Proud
Speaker 2: Boys are a white nationalist group who were involved in
Speaker 2: the January sixth insurrection, and you know, they are known
Speaker 2: for brawling. You know, it's it's easy to find videos
Speaker 2: of them online in these huge street fights, you know,
Speaker 2: punching people, and you know, many of them may be armed.
Speaker 2: And and so I think that the way that each of
Speaker 2: the Santas experience is pushback to the idea of censors
Speaker 2: who break the mold. There are similarities there, but there
Speaker 2: are big differences as well. I think intolerance is intolerance
Speaker 2: however you see it. But it is very interesting in
Speaker 2: the way that each of the different centers experiences experiences that.
Speaker 2: And then Finn, who is a center with a disability,
Speaker 2: the way that he encounters intolerance is by people not
Speaker 2: believing that he can be, not believing that he's going
Speaker 2: to be a you know, a good sanser for kids.
Speaker 2: And what they encounter is, you know, when they try
Speaker 2: to get gigs for Santa Finn, the center with the disability,
Speaker 2: which is spina bifita, they just people just don't call
Speaker 2: them back, you know, they try to get these gigs
Speaker 2: and people just kind of you know, find an excuse
Speaker 2: or say they'll call them back and never do. So,
Speaker 2: you know, the way that people experience discrimination is it's
Speaker 2: very different, but always very interesting and heartbreaking to see.
Speaker 1: I love though, that kids don't know the difference, and
Speaker 1: that there's something very beautiful in that. You know, there's
Speaker 1: always these parents up in arms, Oh God, what are
Speaker 1: the kids going to think about this transcender or what
Speaker 1: are they going to think about Santa with the disability,
Speaker 1: all of these sorts of things. But children don't pick
Speaker 1: up on that. And so there's a lot of ideals
Speaker 1: that we have within ourselves that create this fear that
Speaker 1: are completely unnecessary.
Speaker 2: So much of what the people that oppose the quote
Speaker 2: unquote unconventional senses that we follow are doing. So much
Speaker 2: of that opposition is this idea of we need to
Speaker 2: protect the kids. The kids are going to be confused
Speaker 2: or the kids are going to be indoctrinated. And I
Speaker 2: think that what you see in the film is that
Speaker 2: the kids really don't care. They want a Santa who
Speaker 2: shows them love and brings them joy and listens to
Speaker 2: them and understands them. And I think in that sense,
Speaker 2: this film kind of illustrates that, you know, being Santa
Speaker 2: is from the heart. It's not about skin color or
Speaker 2: you know, orientation or things like that. And I will
Speaker 2: say one of the things that I do remember after
Speaker 2: we started filming, had this kind of flashback to when
Speaker 2: I was young and all I wanted for Christmas was
Speaker 2: this special edition barbie that came with Asari because my
Speaker 2: mother's from Pakistan, and even at the age of like
Speaker 2: seven or eight, I was too afraid to ask Santa
Speaker 2: for that, Like I did kind of sense that it
Speaker 2: was not the right thing to be asking Santa for
Speaker 2: as like a young ay kid. So I think that
Speaker 2: there is something to be said for Santas who are
Speaker 2: like us. I think we do have an idea of
Speaker 2: who we are at a very young age, and so
Speaker 2: having Santas that have that kind of natural empathy can
Speaker 2: hopefully be a good thing for young kids.
Speaker 1: Do you think in some ways that we've become too
Speaker 1: fascinated with putting things in boxes and creating rules unnecessarily,
Speaker 1: you know, I think the origins of fear have something
Speaker 1: to do with our ideology that things need to be
Speaker 1: perfect or they need to be the way that we've
Speaker 1: always seen them.
Speaker 2: It's such a good question, and I think that Christmas
Speaker 2: is this holiday that people really think has to be
Speaker 2: perfect and the same, and they have to see the
Speaker 2: perfect santswer to get the perfect photo and then have
Speaker 2: like the perfect gifts and the perfect Christmas lunch or dinner,
Speaker 2: and so there's all this pressure that people have around,
Speaker 2: you know, what their Christmas should be and what the
Speaker 2: santor should look like. And I think, maybe you know,
Speaker 2: that is part of the reason why people are so
Speaker 2: I guess, you know, opposed to anything that breaks the mold.
Speaker 2: Like they have these very cookie cut of notions of
Speaker 2: whose ants should be and what Christmas should be, and
Speaker 2: they are very threatened by anything that goes against that,
Speaker 2: whether that's a transgender center or a black center. And
Speaker 2: I hope that people can relax a little bit. I mean,
Speaker 2: we see the Santra Society and the film. They're the
Speaker 2: real deal, s answers like they fit the mold of
Speaker 2: what people expect Santa to be, and a lot of
Speaker 2: them are old guys, and they manage to get their
Speaker 2: heads around this idea that Santa can be anybody, and
Speaker 2: so the rest of us should be able to as well.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I was giggling to myself, but that's because
Speaker 1: I find Christmas to be so funny, because people get
Speaker 1: so stressed out with trying to make the perfect Christmas
Speaker 1: lunch that goes wrong every year, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: There's just so much room for error with Christmas and
Speaker 1: the expectation of holiday as well. You know, it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, it gets to the end of the year
Speaker 1: and I've got to go on holidays, and it has
Speaker 1: to be the best holiday that I can go on,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And as soon as you
Speaker 1: start doing that to yourself, it's just leaves so much
Speaker 1: room for comedy in my mind.
Speaker 2: Well, it's so interesting that you say that, because what
Speaker 2: we open the film with is the these slow motion
Speaker 2: montage of babies having tantrums on Santa's lap and they're inspired, yeah,
Speaker 2: thank you, And they're inspired by these amazing Jill Greenberg
Speaker 2: photos from the nineties. She was a photographer that you know,
Speaker 2: she took these photos of toddlers and kids in these
Speaker 2: kind of tantrum states and they're quite amazing photos. And
Speaker 2: when we were thinking of how we would, you know,
Speaker 2: open the film, we were like, oh, what if we
Speaker 2: did something that you know, what if we just sat
Speaker 2: there with a Santa for a whole day and just
Speaker 2: filmed everything that happened and just kind of play some
Speaker 2: of that in slow motion, And of course a lot
Speaker 2: of the kids when they put on Santa's lap, they
Speaker 2: just lose it. They start screaming and throwing their shoes
Speaker 2: and crying and you know, like just howling and reaching
Speaker 2: for their parents, and which I obviously think is hilarious because,
Speaker 2: you know, not just because it just looks so funny
Speaker 2: with you know, these kids dressed up in their best
Speaker 2: outfits for their yearly photo, but also because the comedy
Speaker 2: of failure in the sense that the families have such
Speaker 2: high expectations for these photos. Like they've waited all year
Speaker 2: and they've got all dressed up and gone to this
Speaker 2: place to have a photo with Santa, and they want
Speaker 2: it to be perfect. And they wait in the queue
Speaker 2: and they finally get to the front and as soon
Speaker 2: as they sit on Santa's lap, their baby just starts
Speaker 2: screaming and have tears down their faces. So there's something
Speaker 2: very comedic about that.
Speaker 1: You know, it is because Nick, the reason why it's
Speaker 1: so funny is because the type of people that take
Speaker 1: their kids to sit on a Sander's lap and the
Speaker 1: type of people who want to put up a photo
Speaker 1: of the perfect family. I mean, maybe that's my relationship
Speaker 1: with it, but there's just so much pressure for their
Speaker 1: kid to behave like a seal, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: and to portray the perfect image of family. And I
Speaker 1: just think, no, wonder, these kids are freaking out. They're
Speaker 1: not trained animals. They're not going to sit there and
Speaker 1: in a moment capture the idea of what you want
Speaker 1: other people to think of your family. I mean, I
Speaker 1: might be reading into this a little bit much, but
Speaker 1: that's what I think.
Speaker 2: No, of course, I mean, if you put that much
Speaker 2: wh pressure, if you build up to that one moment
Speaker 2: where you know you have a few seconds to get
Speaker 2: to get a perfect photo with Santa, of course everything
Speaker 2: is going.
Speaker 1: To go wrong. I wanted to ask you a question
Speaker 1: about something that's happening in the state to the moment,
Speaker 1: and I just thought this movie made me think about
Speaker 1: broader things, and with what was happening with the shooting
Speaker 1: in America this week, I was wondering, do you think
Speaker 1: that confusion and fear is responsible for some of those
Speaker 1: recent crimes against the LGBTI community.
Speaker 2: I think that in recent years there's been a huge
Speaker 2: amount of hatred and you know, divisive sentiment directed towards
Speaker 2: the LGBTQ community. I've seen it as a gay man myself,
Speaker 2: just in the way that you know, in certain parts
Speaker 2: of America you do feel afraid walking around and being,
Speaker 2: you know, to use an elegant phrase, you know, to
Speaker 2: be visibly overtly gay, which I think that I am,
Speaker 2: and I have certainly felt that more in recent years.
Speaker 2: I didn't feel that when I first moved here ten
Speaker 2: years ago, and I think that it was truly shocking
Speaker 2: to me in the context of the film. You know,
Speaker 2: when we started following Levi, who was a transgender Santa,
Speaker 2: we just did not expect that there was going to
Speaker 2: be the type of opposition to him that we see
Speaker 2: in the film. We never thought that there would be
Speaker 2: protesters or white nationalists showing up to his event, an
Speaker 2: event that was purely designed to give young queer kids joy,
Speaker 2: and young queer kids and kids whose parents are that
Speaker 2: was who the event was directed at. So certainly it
Speaker 2: has felt more palpable in recent years, and I think
Speaker 2: even even with that, I was still very shocked at
Speaker 2: what happened in the film. I was very shocked to be,
Speaker 2: you know, standing face to face with the brown boys
Speaker 2: and what you see in the film when they show
Speaker 2: up The first thing that we heard was them yelling
Speaker 2: keep Christ in Christmas, and then they started talking and
Speaker 2: talking about all of the you know, opposite that they
Speaker 2: had to this idea that Santa would be portrayed by
Speaker 2: a trans person. They were very upset about that. And
Speaker 2: then at one point one of them starts saying, you know,
Speaker 2: and the Bible that I read says that this is
Speaker 2: a sin. And all I could think was that Santa's
Speaker 2: not in the Bible.
Speaker 3: I loved that in the movie.
Speaker 2: You know, it's at I kind of yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: I kind of blurted it out. And they weren't pleased
Speaker 2: with that, but yeah, I mean, Santa's not in the Bible.
Speaker 2: And it's very shocking that anyone would care.
Speaker 1: There's something so embarrassing and disgusting when you see violence
Speaker 1: and abuse because someone feels threatened by seeing another person
Speaker 1: getting joy from being who they are, or getting joy
Speaker 1: from something that is actually non threatening at all to
Speaker 1: anyone else.
Speaker 2: It was very strange and very surreal, I've got to
Speaker 2: say it was. It was a very weird moment, and
Speaker 2: they were all, you know that these protesters were also
Speaker 2: talking about how a transgender Santa is. It's proof that
Speaker 2: communism and Marxism is taking over the country, and I
Speaker 2: just remember thinking, like, how these two things in any
Speaker 2: way related just made no sense, but it was very strange,
Speaker 2: and I just, you know, at one point they proudly
Speaker 2: started singing a Christmas carol, which isn't included in the film,
Speaker 2: but yeah, it's very, very strange. And it's one of
Speaker 2: those moments of which there were many in the making
Speaker 2: of this film where I just thought, you know, if
Speaker 2: we weren't here with a camera and nobody would believe
Speaker 2: that any of this happened, because it just sounds so
Speaker 2: far fetched and strange.
Speaker 1: It's kind of the magic of the documentary, though, Is
Speaker 1: there a way in which we can try and change
Speaker 1: the world, you know, without having so much hate and
Speaker 1: fear being pushed up against us.
Speaker 2: I think so much of so much of people's insecurities
Speaker 2: or resistance to the idea of there being other people
Speaker 2: who are not like them comes from their lack of
Speaker 2: familiarity with it. And I hope that with Santa camp
Speaker 2: By seeing these wonderful characters that we follow, you know,
Speaker 2: and their challenges and their victories and their you know,
Speaker 2: light moments and dark moments, I hope that by seeing
Speaker 2: that that it humanizes them for the audience and they
Speaker 2: get a sense of what people who are not like them,
Speaker 2: what those people's lives are like, because I think that
Speaker 2: a lot of misunderstanding or prejudice just comes from the
Speaker 2: fact that people aren't really exposed to people that aren't
Speaker 2: like them. I hope that's where it comes from.
Speaker 1: I think it's fear, like I see it in my
Speaker 1: own life, and I think I hated about myself. But
Speaker 1: in places that I have fear myself, like I'm worried,
Speaker 1: is usually the places where I do the worst things,
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? So, I think when
Speaker 1: we are fearful, we behave badly. And I think that
Speaker 1: those things are quite tightly married together.
Speaker 3: And so yeah, when you.
Speaker 1: Have people who are just so scared of change that
Speaker 1: fear is a breeding ground for them to behave badly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that. I mean. The reaction to the
Speaker 2: diverse sensors that we see in the film is so extreme.
Speaker 2: You know, Chris, a Black Santa, simply puts an inflatable
Speaker 2: black Santa clause on his lawn and gets a racist
Speaker 2: letter about it. Who would who would bother to take
Speaker 2: the time to sit down, type out a letter, a
Speaker 2: racist letter, send it to somebody, you know, over a
Speaker 2: lawn decoration. And the same goes for Levi the transgender Santa.
Speaker 2: Like the idea that somebody would feel so passionately that
Speaker 2: that a trans person can't portray Santa clause that they
Speaker 2: would like drive across town, make save Santa posters, which
Speaker 2: we see them carrying in the film, and protest about it.
Speaker 2: Is like, it's it's very it's it's just a lot
Speaker 2: of effort to put in to making somebody feel othered,
Speaker 2: and it's very surprising to see.
Speaker 1: I thought the phone call was the thing that really
Speaker 1: I was like listening to this woman with such conviction
Speaker 1: and and such you know, anger and hate, you know,
Speaker 1: being bothered to ring someone and leave such a such
Speaker 1: a long voicemail.
Speaker 3: Like I was like, what is wrong with this person?
Speaker 1: And I'm like worried for her, you know what's happening
Speaker 1: in her life that she feels that that's where she's
Speaker 1: going to take that energy and that's where she's going
Speaker 1: to put it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the phone call that you're talking about is so
Speaker 2: shocking and so strange. It's this very long message that
Speaker 2: somebody leaves on the organizer of the Meat Transgender Santa
Speaker 2: events voicemail, and it just goes on and on and
Speaker 2: on and talks about communism and pedophilia and grooming, like
Speaker 2: all of these kind of go to concepts that are
Speaker 2: used to demonize other people. And I remember, you know,
Speaker 2: sitting there and listening to it and just being completely perplexed.
Speaker 2: But also there was a part of me that wondered,
Speaker 2: is that is the person leaving business is just very bored.
Speaker 2: Do they just not have a lot else to do?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean what happened was when that
Speaker 2: when the Meat Transgender Center event was first announced in Chicago,
Speaker 2: the event posting went viral amongst people that were opposed
Speaker 2: to transgender people, and you know, the comments, some of
Speaker 2: which we see in the film are just really shocking.
Speaker 2: They're very hateful. And then that group of people then
Speaker 2: mobilized and you know, decided to turn up and protest.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's confronting. It's very confronting. It's not what
Speaker 2: you expect in a Christmas movie. And you know, a
Speaker 2: lot of the movie is very fun and funny and
Speaker 2: light hearted and slapstick, and you know, some of the
Speaker 2: stances talk about, you know, when kids poo on them
Speaker 2: when they're sitting on Santa's lap. Like, there's a real
Speaker 2: mix of different emotions from the very serious.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I focused on the serious because there's been
Speaker 1: some stuff that I'm like, I mean, Nick, I could
Speaker 1: talk to you about this movie for a very long time,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that at this point you probably feel
Speaker 1: like I almost have. But I think there's so many
Speaker 1: things to talk about. I mean, I could see your
Speaker 1: love of Christmas and the love of tradition and your
Speaker 1: fascination with that throughout the whole film, even at its
Speaker 1: bleakest points, and I wanted to ask you. You know,
Speaker 1: these days, it's quite common to have parents tell their
Speaker 1: kids that Santa doesn't exist because they believe it's important
Speaker 1: to never misinform their children. You know, what do you
Speaker 1: think of that common practice now with parents being like
Speaker 1: not even allowing their kids to ever believe in Christmas
Speaker 1: because they're worried that, you know, the kids are going
Speaker 1: to come back to them years later and say, you
Speaker 1: lied to me.
Speaker 2: It's so interesting and it's funny. When we started filming,
Speaker 2: the Santa Society were actually concerned about the opposite. When
Speaker 2: we first said to them we would like to film
Speaker 2: at this camp, they were like, yeah, but if you
Speaker 2: film with us, then kids are going to watch this
Speaker 2: and see that Santa's not real because there's like a
Speaker 2: hundred of us sitting in a class learning how to
Speaker 2: be Santa. And when they said that to me, I
Speaker 2: was like, Oh, I didn't even think of that, And
Speaker 2: I just didn't really know what to say because I
Speaker 2: was kind of like, it's.
Speaker 3: Not a show for children.
Speaker 1: It's what you say to people, like when people say
Speaker 1: to you about, you know, R rated films, law adult
Speaker 1: films late at night, and you're like, what are my children.
Speaker 3: Going to think?
Speaker 1: Well, your children shouldn't be up late at night watching
Speaker 1: R rated movies, Like you know, this is a film
Speaker 1: not for children.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's for kids that are
Speaker 2: kind of like ate and up, which is I think
Speaker 2: I understand is the agent which they stopped believing in Santa.
Speaker 2: In terms of parents not even telling their kids that
Speaker 2: Santra exists, I do get that. And one thing that
Speaker 2: I have heard that is similar to that is that
Speaker 2: I have heard actually a lot of black families saying
Speaker 2: that they don't teach their kids that Santa is real,
Speaker 2: because traditionally there's been so little representation if their family
Speaker 2: is in the idea of Santa. There's an actress, Gabrielle Union,
Speaker 2: who I saw a quote from recently, and she was
Speaker 2: saying that like, she never taught her kids about Santa
Speaker 2: because she didn't want her kids to think that some
Speaker 2: white guy had broken into their house. And you know,
Speaker 2: I can see why a lot of diverse families wouldn't
Speaker 2: be that interested in kind of perpetuating this notion of
Speaker 2: Santa when there is so little diversity around him. And
Speaker 2: I should say, for the record, we see in the
Speaker 2: film the Santas themselves talk about the fact that Santa Claus,
Speaker 2: actually Sint Nicholas, is from Turkey. One of the Santas says,
Speaker 2: Santa's from Turkey originally, and he probably would have been
Speaker 2: olive white. So you know, Santa's always changed.
Speaker 1: And it's fine, Yeah, it's okay, yeah, and we all
Speaker 1: evolved exactly. I'm so sad that I'm almost running out
Speaker 1: of time because I have so many other things that
Speaker 1: I'm miss wanting to talk to you about. But everyone
Speaker 1: who joins the podcast gets asked this question, which is
Speaker 1: what's something from behind the scene, something that we won't see,
Speaker 1: kind of like a behind the scene secret.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So when we got to when we found out
Speaker 2: how huge the campsite was where Santa Camp takes place.
Speaker 2: Once we saw it on a map, we were like, oh,
Speaker 2: we're going to need golf carts to get around this place.
Speaker 2: And the Santas themselves bring in some of their own
Speaker 2: golf carts, but we hired our own golf carts for
Speaker 2: the production crew. Because the things that were happening were
Speaker 2: spread out over this huge area. We were always rushing
Speaker 2: around like we didn't want to miss anything, and we
Speaker 2: had three different crews that were each kind of like
Speaker 2: assigned to different things, and we were communicating in walkie
Speaker 2: talkies and we'd be like, you know, quickly get to blah,
Speaker 2: or like, something's happening by the lake, and we would
Speaker 2: drive down there. And at one point the producer and
Speaker 2: I were driving in such a rush that the golf
Speaker 2: cart I almost drove us over the edge of a
Speaker 2: cliff because I got the accelerator and the break confused
Speaker 2: and actually drove like up onto the steps of one
Speaker 2: of the cabins, and the golf cart only stopped moving
Speaker 2: forwards because it like got stuck on the steps and
Speaker 2: it was like kind of like teetering like that while
Speaker 2: the wheels were still spinning. And if it had not
Speaker 2: been teetering, then it would have gone forwards and gone
Speaker 2: over the edge of this ravine. And I mean, I
Speaker 2: think we would have died.
Speaker 3: So that was I shouldn't be laughing.
Speaker 1: You're like, I know we're going to say that I
Speaker 1: think we were going to die, And I'm like, well.
Speaker 2: We were about to go over the edge of a
Speaker 2: ravine in a golf cart at Santa Camp And I
Speaker 2: just imagine like what the obituary would have said. It
Speaker 2: would have just been so ridiculous, Like it would have
Speaker 2: been one of those obituaries that people share and laugh about.
Speaker 1: Like it's not how we want the documentary to end, Nick,
Speaker 1: with the end of the movie being that the documentary
Speaker 1: filmmaker is no longer with us. This is dedicated to
Speaker 1: God Black. We've got a Santa's floating.
Speaker 3: In the river. We need the footage, we need them
Speaker 3: down there, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. They could have been a very different film.
Speaker 3: Nick.
Speaker 1: I just want to say how much I enjoyed talking
Speaker 1: to you today. And talking to you about your film.
Speaker 1: I hope people check it out. It is out on
Speaker 1: FOXTELD today. It's a brilliant HBO documentary series. And for
Speaker 1: anyone that wants to join the conversation, please hit me
Speaker 1: up because I think I'm going to be talking about
Speaker 1: Santa Camp for a very long time.
Speaker 3: Nick. Thanks, thanks so much, and all the best.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I hope that everybody you know
Speaker 2: gets some Christmas joy and some emotion out of it
Speaker 2: as well. And it's been a pleasure talking to you.