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Speaker 1: If you're looking for ways to encourage your kids to

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Speaker 1: learn about saving and smart spending, check out Kit, a

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Speaker 1: pocket money app and card built by Combank. It teaches

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Speaker 1: kids about earning money through chores and saving in buckets

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Speaker 1: or what Kit calls stacks. Kit is free for eligible

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Speaker 1: Combank Yellow customers, t's and C supply, or just fifty

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Speaker 1: dollars a year for up to five children. Download the

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Speaker 1: app or visit haykit dot com dot Au. You can

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Speaker 1: also download kits free pocket Money one oh one guide

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Speaker 1: from the kit website at Heykit dot com dot Au

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Speaker 1: TMD available on the website. Consider it appropriate for you.

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Speaker 1: The last couple of weekends, we've had some really fascinating

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Speaker 1: conversations about kids money, pocket money, delayed gratification, and how

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Speaker 1: to help children to understand things like interest and spending

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Speaker 1: and all those kinds of things. Today, one more discussion

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Speaker 1: that I think is going to be really really fascinating

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Speaker 1: for you. If you have a child of Internet age

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Speaker 1: where they want to get online and spend roebucks, or

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Speaker 1: they want to buy stuff online, they can't help it

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Speaker 1: with TEAMU all that sort of stuff. That's our conversation today.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast, Real Parenting Solutions every day.

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Speaker 1: It's Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. My name is doctor

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Speaker 1: Justin Coulson and once again today joined by Ishko, Managing

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Speaker 1: director of Kit, a pocket money app for kids teaching

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Speaker 1: kids about money. Thanks so much for being with me again.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me again, Justin.

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Speaker 1: So let's kick on straight away. I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about kids and what's going on in their online lives.

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Speaker 1: Increasingly people have figured out how to monetize the online world,

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Speaker 1: and our children are all too often victims of that.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty common for kids to be spending money in

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Speaker 1: online games. Sometimes they realize it. Sometimes they don't talk

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Speaker 1: to me a bit about what's going on with kids

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Speaker 1: in the online gaming world when it comes to either

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Speaker 1: their cash or your credit card.

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Speaker 3: I think the thing about online games and spending and

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Speaker 3: online games is that it's really easy and with all

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Speaker 3: that spending happening digitally, you know, the kids are immersed

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Speaker 3: in the game and they just want to keep going,

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Speaker 3: or they want to play with and connect with their friends,

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Speaker 3: and if they just continue to click buy, it's really

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Speaker 3: easy for them to lose track of what they're spending.

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Speaker 3: Particularly in online gates, you've got these micro transactions where

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Speaker 3: it might be two dollars here, three dollars there, and

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Speaker 3: before you know it.

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Speaker 2: They've spent one hundred dollars.

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Speaker 3: So what's really important to help your kid with their

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Speaker 3: online spending, firstly, is just to make it really visible.

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Speaker 3: So if your child's got their own payment method where

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Speaker 3: you can separate it out from your own credit card

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Speaker 3: that's paying for these things, that's great because if they

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Speaker 3: run out of money, they've got no more money, and

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Speaker 3: they will very quickly realize that when those transactions get declined.

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Speaker 3: I know the one We did a survey a little

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Speaker 3: while ago and show the one and two parents so

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Speaker 3: that their kids had spent money on their credit card

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Speaker 3: without their parents' permission.

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Speaker 2: So it's very common.

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Speaker 3: So you're not a poor parent if this happens to you,

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Speaker 3: it happens to many people. The other thing you can

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Speaker 3: do is try and make a link between in game

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Speaker 3: currency and real life. So what these online games tend

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Speaker 3: to do is try to obscure the relationship between real

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Speaker 3: money and what's happening in the game.

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Speaker 2: So you know, you're spending.

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Speaker 3: Eight dollars fifty and you get five hundred robucks, Like,

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Speaker 3: it's really easy to say five hundred here, a thousand

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Speaker 3: there and then just completely lose track of what that

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Speaker 3: actually means in dollar rounds. So bring it up to

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Speaker 3: your kid and say, you know, in the last couple

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Speaker 3: of weeks, this is what you've spent. Now, how do

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Speaker 3: you feel about that? And what could we have bought

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Speaker 3: with that money if it was in the real world,

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Speaker 3: Just to get them to have a think about that

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Speaker 3: value and whether they feel like they're getting value for money.

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Speaker 3: The other thing that you can talk to them about

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Speaker 3: is online games are really sophisticated advertising machines and it's

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Speaker 3: not necessarily the fault of kids.

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Speaker 2: So things like flash sales and.

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Speaker 3: You know that false sense of urgency of oh, we've

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Speaker 3: got fifty percent off on this today, you need to

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Speaker 3: do this in the next day. Getting your kids to

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Speaker 3: realize that some of these things may make them feel

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Speaker 3: like they need to act on it right away, but

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Speaker 3: it's actually a technique for the game to try and

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Speaker 3: get more money out of you. So helping them realize

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Speaker 3: that and then if all else fails.

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Speaker 1: Frontal controls, Yeah, yeah, I want to talk a bit

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Speaker 1: more about the insidious nature of the marketing and getting

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Speaker 1: caught up in the game. So I'm not a gamer.

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Speaker 1: I haven't played games for a long, long time. Last year, though,

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Speaker 1: we went on an overseas trip and I thought, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be sitting around in airport's a lot. There's

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Speaker 1: only so much reading I'm willing to do. And if

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Speaker 1: I've got a fourteen hour flight, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: read for fourteen hours. I might download a game just

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Speaker 1: to I don't know, play on the phone and do

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Speaker 1: a bit of that. And I found that if I

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Speaker 1: was sitting in an airport for a layover or whatever,

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Speaker 1: it was just it became really easy to pull the

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Speaker 1: game out. But I started to care about the game

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Speaker 1: a lot. I mean, you know what I do for

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Speaker 1: a living. I talked to parents about how to make

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Speaker 1: sure that the kids don't get captured by games in

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Speaker 1: this sort of scenario, but I found myself falling prey

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Speaker 1: to it. I didn't actually spend the money, but almost

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Speaker 1: a couple times there was this there's the value pack.

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Speaker 1: You get all of these special skills, and you get

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Speaker 1: all of this extra coinage, and you get all this

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Speaker 1: like it's a big value pack and it's only fourteen

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Speaker 1: ninety nine, and I just knew if I bought the

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Speaker 1: Value Pack, I'd be able to accelerate through at least

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Speaker 1: twenty or thirty more levels really really fast, and I'd

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Speaker 1: feel so good about my life because and I remember

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Speaker 1: thinking to myself as I pulled away from the buy

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Speaker 1: now button and thought, what am I doing? Like as

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Speaker 1: if I care that much that I want to spend

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Speaker 1: fifteen bucks on this stupid game. I remember thinking to myself,

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Speaker 1: it almost got me. And I've got the PhD in psychology,

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Speaker 1: I'm nearly fifty years old. It must be so tough

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Speaker 1: for kids when they're playing these games. All they're friends

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Speaker 1: playing these games. They want to level up. They know

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Speaker 1: their friends are on this other level. They can't quite

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Speaker 1: get there, And for the nine ninety nine or the

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Speaker 1: four ninety nine or the forty nine ninety nine, they

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Speaker 1: can have this skin, or they can have this weapon,

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Speaker 1: they can have this goal, or they can have this

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Speaker 1: power boost or whatever it is, and suddenly they're where

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Speaker 1: all their friends are. That's got to feel really, really good,

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Speaker 1: because there's so much status associated with how you play

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Speaker 1: the game.

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Speaker 3: Yes, totally spot on, And I think what's even more

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Speaker 3: insidious about some games. On top of these sort of

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Speaker 3: advertising techniques, there's also the fact that these platforms are open.

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Speaker 3: So if you think about Roadblocks and you know you

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Speaker 3: can actually make money on Roadblocks by designing games, But

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Speaker 3: at the same time, you have strangers who we're talking

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Speaker 3: to your kids and saying you can make why don't

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Speaker 3: you come and work for me. We can make lots

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Speaker 3: of money, And suddenly you're in a totally unregulated employment

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Speaker 3: market with people you may not know. So there really

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Speaker 3: is not very much in the way of knowing that

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Speaker 3: the user as a child and putting the right sort

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Speaker 3: of safety mechanisms around it. So I think justin I

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Speaker 3: think you getting sucked into the game is totally the

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Speaker 3: way for parents to really understand exactly what kids are

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Speaker 3: experiencing and how it makes you feel.

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Speaker 1: Just to be clear, they didn't get me. I was

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Speaker 1: able to resist, I was able to.

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Speaker 2: Expand, but PhD came in handy.

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Speaker 1: I guess it was tempting for a minute there. While

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Speaker 1: you're on this idea of earning money online. First of all,

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Speaker 1: I reckon what you've just said about how kids can

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Speaker 1: make money on Roadblocks and on other games. They can

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Speaker 1: stream on Twitch and they've got their YouTube channels and

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Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff. Obviously, you've got to work really, really,

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Speaker 1: really hard to make any decent money, but there are

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Speaker 1: some kids that are out there making some genuine money

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Speaker 1: by what they're doing online. Can you talk a bit

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Speaker 1: more about both the ways that children are earning money

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Speaker 1: online and what parents need to know about it outside

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Speaker 1: of the safety issues that you've just described.

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Speaker 2: We don't want to.

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Speaker 3: Say the digital world is all bad, because one of

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Speaker 3: the benefits of the digital world is that there are

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Speaker 3: lots of new ways that kids can earn money online.

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Speaker 3: Now we know that there are children who make their

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Speaker 3: own asser crafts like Bracelet's Haven Bracelet's personalized items that

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Speaker 3: they can then sell on eBay or at sea. You

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Speaker 3: mentioned before, if your kids are thirteen plus and with

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Speaker 3: the right parental supervision, they can stream on Twitch or

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Speaker 3: create YouTube channels. All of them need a certain number

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Speaker 3: of subscribers to be able to monetize and earn money

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Speaker 3: from it. The most important thing that parents need to

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Speaker 3: know about this firstly is that if your kids are

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Speaker 3: going into these things, firstly, what are the legal and

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Speaker 3: state based kind of rules around this.

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Speaker 2: So typically there is either.

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Speaker 3: A requirement for your child to be a certain age

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Speaker 3: or that you as a parent need to manage the

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Speaker 3: account or supervise them. Secondly, if your child is selling things,

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Speaker 3: and I know the social media ban will be coming

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Speaker 3: in later this year, but if they are, if you are,

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Speaker 3: for example, facilitating sales on Facebook, Marketplace or things like that,

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Speaker 3: to be really careful of who you're speaking to, and

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Speaker 3: always for selling things in person, to do that safely

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Speaker 3: and never share your personal information with other people. And

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Speaker 3: then finally have to think about if their primary motivation

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Speaker 3: is money. So it could be that they just love

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Speaker 3: doing it and they want to make money, and that's

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Speaker 3: totally fine if they want to spend their time doing that,

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Speaker 3: but if they're going into this saying I want to

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Speaker 3: make more money so that I can save up to

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Speaker 3: buy something that I want, help them realize how much

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Speaker 3: time they're spending on it.

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Speaker 2: If it's not something that they love.

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Speaker 3: To do intrinsically and they're spending lots of time and

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Speaker 3: not making lots of money, it's definitely worth having that

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Speaker 3: conversation around what are the other options? Because I see

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Speaker 3: kids that do bake sales and they do extremely well

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Speaker 3: baked sales just sort of down the corner from where

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Speaker 3: I live.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got a daughter who loves the baked sale,

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Speaker 1: and we've sat down with her and done the mats, like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: it costs this much for the flour and for the

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Speaker 1: cake mix and for the chocolate chips and all this

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Speaker 1: sort of stuff, and we've done this many hours of

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Speaker 1: baking and cooking and whatever else. And this is how

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Speaker 1: much money we've had with revenue. But once you take

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Speaker 1: the costs away from the revenue, here's how much you

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Speaker 1: actually made. Here's so many hours you work. We work

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Speaker 1: it out at an hourly rate, and start to have

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Speaker 1: the conversations around is this a good way for you

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Speaker 1: to earn money or would you be better off just

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Speaker 1: mowing my lawn and getting twenty bucks? And the kids

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Speaker 1: are like hmm. You can see the way they start

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Speaker 1: to think about it. Clearly, the opportunity for scale online

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Speaker 1: is amazing, which is why so many kids want to

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Speaker 1: do it, and they love the status that comes with it.

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Speaker 1: Some research shows that kids want to be influencers more

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Speaker 1: than they want to be movie stars these because the

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Speaker 1: influencers have more followers and get more status, which I

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Speaker 1: find fascinating it can be helpful for kids to learn

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Speaker 1: the basics of how finances work, especially in this digital

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Speaker 1: age of invisible money. Kit is a pocket money app

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Speaker 1: and card built by Combank. It helps kids learn about

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Speaker 1: money through earning, saving, and spending pocket money, as well

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Speaker 1: as by playing fun games and quizzes. Kit is free

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Speaker 1: for eligible Combank Yellow customers, t's and C supply, or

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00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,480
Speaker 1: just fifty dollars a year for up to five children.

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Speaker 1: Download the app or visit heykit dot com dot a U.

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Speaker 1: You can also download Kit's free pocket Money one O

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Speaker 1: one guide from the Kit website at Heykit dot com

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Speaker 1: dot AU TMD available on the website. Consider it appropriate

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Speaker 1: for you. I don't know if this is one that

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Speaker 1: you can answer or not, but I'm really curious about

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Speaker 1: AI becoming more sophisticated and making scam realistic. Are you

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Speaker 1: seeing anything in terms of scams and kids being online?

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Speaker 1: A kid's getting done here.

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Speaker 3: So you might think that all people are the most

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Speaker 3: vulnerable to scams, but actually the largest coport of people

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Speaker 3: who fall victims to scan tend to the younger people

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Speaker 3: because their entire lives and a lot of the purchasing

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Speaker 3: that they do happens online. What we see with some

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Speaker 3: kid kids when it comes to those who fall for scams,

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Speaker 3: it tends to be either they're purchasing from merchants who.

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Speaker 2: Don't deliver the product, or deliver one that's inferior.

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Speaker 3: And often you know fake shops that get set up

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Speaker 3: really quickly with AI now and they can either be

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Speaker 3: copying a legitimate brand or they might be creating something

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Speaker 3: that looks like a legitimate store and advertise themselves on

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Speaker 3: social media online and it just ends up being completely fake.

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Speaker 3: The second thing we see is that there's often competitions

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Speaker 3: or promises for free robucks. For example, if you just

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Speaker 3: fill out this survey or fill out this competition, just

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Speaker 3: your credit card details here to enter. AI makes it

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Speaker 3: really easy for these scams to look realistic and make

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Speaker 3: it hard the kids to realize that it's fake.

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Speaker 2: So the golden rule that I always say, if you

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Speaker 2: don't listen to.

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Speaker 3: Anything else, the golden rule is if it sounds too

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Speaker 3: good to be true, it probably is. If someone's giving

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Speaker 3: you free roebucks, before you share your info, ask why

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Speaker 3: do they want that info? So when buying online, I

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Speaker 3: always say check if it's a legitimate merchant. So look

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Speaker 3: at the domain name, for example, is that the actual

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Speaker 3: same website as the merchant that it says it's going

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Speaker 3: to be if you haven't purchased from it, if you've

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Speaker 3: never heard of a brand before, be really careful, and

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Speaker 3: you know, always keep that door open to get your

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Speaker 3: kids to check with you if they feel that something's

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Speaker 3: not quite right or they think that's not quite right,

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Speaker 3: Just have that conversation so that you as the adult,

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Speaker 3: can help us that out as well, because it's hard

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Speaker 3: for adults too. Some of the scams, because they're impersonating

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Speaker 3: really well known companies, it can really look legitimate and

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Speaker 3: look like the actual company.

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Speaker 2: So contact the company directly.

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Speaker 3: If you're not sure, but also have a look in

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Speaker 3: your emails and texts so I know that those scams

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Speaker 3: around the hey mom scam, it's the same thing.

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Speaker 2: You know, if you get someone online he's impersonating a.

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Speaker 3: Parent and saying, Hey, I'm mum stuck here and can

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Speaker 3: you just send me some money. Having something that you've

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Speaker 3: agreed upfront around you know, maybe it's a password.

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Speaker 2: It's like, if it's really me, you could say this

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Speaker 2: and then you know that you're not being scammed.

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Speaker 1: It's such a valuable conversation. We've covered so many things

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Speaker 1: that really matter here. I really appreciate where this has

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Speaker 1: gone fundamentally. When I look at the online world, I

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Speaker 1: look at the way it targets all of us, adults,

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Speaker 1: kids alike, it really feels to me, whether it's Ai

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Speaker 1: instant Robucks or instant fame or instant whatever, to me,

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Speaker 1: it's a world of instant gratification. Over the last couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks, both with you when we spoke two weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: and also Nicole last week, as we've talked about money skills,

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Speaker 1: the concept, the construct, the idea of delayed greatify keeps

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Speaker 1: coming up again and again and again. I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's really pertinent here as well. When you look at

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Speaker 1: the most successful savers and you've got access to all

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Speaker 1: of this data. With what you're doing with the pocket

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Speaker 1: money up for kids with kid, what do you see

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Speaker 1: happening when it comes to teaching delayed gratification, Because clearly

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Speaker 1: there are some kids that are doing it really, really well.

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Speaker 3: But I say, I will say there's an element of delayed

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Speaker 3: gratification that comes down to personality. And I know a

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Speaker 3: lot of parents get really surprised and these I've got

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Speaker 3: two kids, it's that same family. One kid never spends

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Speaker 3: any of them money. All they want to do is

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Speaker 3: just have it sit there and watch it grow and

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Speaker 3: they're just super proud of it and they won't spend

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Speaker 3: it ever. And then you have the other kid that's

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Speaker 3: out just having fun with their friends, spending and getting

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Speaker 3: it to.

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Speaker 2: Zero and this money in it.

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Speaker 3: So there is definitely a genetic element to it, but

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Speaker 3: there are things that parents can do to improve a

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Speaker 3: delayed gratification. So if you think about it, it's that

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Speaker 3: core skill that makes you good at money.

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Speaker 2: So if you think.

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Speaker 3: About saving money, investing money, it's always about foregoing that

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Speaker 3: thing that's right in front of you and the thing

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Speaker 3: that you really want right now for a future benefit.

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Speaker 3: So as a parent, that role modeling is super important.

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Speaker 3: So what we say as parents ends up becoming that

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Speaker 3: internal dialogue of our kids. So what do you say

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Speaker 3: when you're facing temptation? Are you the kind of parent

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Speaker 3: that's like, hey, treat yourself, or are you not a

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Speaker 3: parent of hmm, that looks nice. I'm going to think

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Speaker 3: about it. You know, I don't need to buy that

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Speaker 3: right now, or I'm okay to wait for a sale.

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Speaker 3: Secondly saying no and following through. So this is my

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Speaker 3: tip for preventing nagging, which is if your kids are

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Speaker 3: nagging you for something and you say no, and then

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Speaker 3: they nag you some more and eventually you cave and

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Speaker 3: say yes, that's just saying whenever you want something, we

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Speaker 3: need to do is continue to nag it you get

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Speaker 3: the s So following through with what you say you

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Speaker 3: do really helps. Also, delayed modification isn't a massive concept,

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Speaker 3: so I call it like a muscle that you can

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Speaker 3: strengthen over time. So if you can practice, you know,

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Speaker 3: set your kid up for success. Help them to wait

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Speaker 3: for small periods of time. So either give them a

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Speaker 3: regular pocket money cadence where it's weekly, and as they

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Speaker 3: get used to having to wait a whole week to

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Speaker 3: get their money, then fortnightly, and then monthly like an adults,

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Speaker 3: they become sort of older teenagers. They get that muscle

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Speaker 3: of knowing that money doesn't come whenever they need it,

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Speaker 3: but they need to wait for it if they've done

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Speaker 3: their chores and to wait for that payday, and then

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Speaker 3: they get better at then waiting longer periods of time

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Speaker 3: and then being able to budget and think about what

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Speaker 3: they're going to do with that money, and then when.

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Speaker 2: All us fails, you can also set control.

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Speaker 3: So if you do have that child, for example, that

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Speaker 3: spends all their money at once, you could say when

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Speaker 3: you get your pocket money each week, what we're going

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Speaker 3: to do collaboratively is say we're going to split fifty

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Speaker 3: percent into a savings account that I'll keep for you,

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Speaker 3: and then fifty percent that you can spend, so that

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Speaker 3: way they don't get tempted, they understand the importance of saving,

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Speaker 3: and you're setting them up for success.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the approach that we've typically taken with our kids.

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Speaker 1: We help them to set goals, we organize percentages and

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Speaker 1: do it. Of course, if you can do it automatically,

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Speaker 1: that makes it a lot easier.

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Speaker 3: Ish.

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Speaker 1: This has been such a I think such a helpful

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Speaker 1: and important conversation. Really appreciate your time. Thanks for chatting

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Speaker 1: with me, Thanks Dosh having me du Justin ish Coo

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Speaker 1: is the managing director of kit, a pocket money app

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Speaker 1: for kids teaching kids about money. If you'd like more

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Speaker 1: information and resources, will link to things in the show

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Speaker 1: notes for you. The Happy Families podcast is produced by

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Speaker 1: Justin Ruland from Bridge media. Mim Hammonds provides our admin,

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Speaker 1: research and other support. And if you'd like more info

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Speaker 1: and more resources about the things that we've talked about today,

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Speaker 1: or just about making your family happier, you'll find it

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Speaker 1: all at Happyfamilies dot com dot au. Kit is a

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Speaker 1: pocket money app and card built by Combank. Kit helps

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Speaker 1: kids learn all about money, from earning, saving, and spending

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Speaker 1: their pocket money through to learning about money by taking

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Speaker 1: quizzes and playing fun games. It's guilt free screen time

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00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:57,439
Speaker 1: that helps them develop financial confidence. Kit is free for

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Speaker 1: eligible Combank Yellow customers, tease se supply, or just fifty

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00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,919
Speaker 1: dollars a year for up to five children. Download the

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00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,960
Speaker 1: app or visit haykit dot com dot a U. You

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00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,880
Speaker 1: can also download Kit's free pocket Money one oh one

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00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 1: guide from the kit website at heykit dot com dot

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00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,159
Speaker 1: au TMD available on the website. Consider it appropriate for

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Speaker 1: you