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Speaker 1: Do difficult workplace conversations terrify you to the idea of

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Speaker 1: having to tell a colleague something they won't like make

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Speaker 1: you just want to pack up for the day and

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Speaker 1: go home instead. If that's the case, then Dom Price

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Speaker 1: might have the mindset, flip and strategies that you need

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Speaker 1: to approach these conversations with enthusiasm instead of trepidation. I'm

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Speaker 1: very excited to have Dom back on the show once

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Speaker 1: again to get to the bottom of what seems to

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Speaker 1: be a real problem in a lot of workplaces. Dom

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Speaker 1: is the resident work futurist at at Lassion, one of

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Speaker 1: the largest software companies in the world, and has responsibilities

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Speaker 1: spanning seven global R and D centers. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: talk to Dom about having difficult conversations at work and

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Speaker 1: was honestly surprised by some of the insights he shared.

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Speaker 1: In this episode, we discussed the common thing many of

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Speaker 1: us do that makes these conversations more difficult than they

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Speaker 1: need to be, the simple thing he says we'll make

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Speaker 1: these conversations even easier, and the unique way he prepares

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Speaker 1: but difficult conversations that many of us don't do. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and

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Speaker 1: strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor, Amantha Imber.

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Speaker 1: It seems like in the past six months, every second

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Speaker 1: conversation I have with a client at invent Him is

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Speaker 1: about how their organization's culture is overly positive and no

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Speaker 1: one actually feels comfortable having challenging conversations and driving accountability.

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Speaker 1: That I wanted to know, is this just in my

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Speaker 1: sphere of experience or is this something that Don has

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Speaker 1: noticed as well?

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Speaker 2: A conversation with someone from Inventing that I was having

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Speaker 2: right about this, like the cancel culture has reached the workplace,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, and I don't think I've

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Speaker 2: been aware of it, which probably makes sense. I'm a

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Speaker 2: middle aged white guy with privilege, right, so I'm securing

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Speaker 2: my role, right, I've been at the company for eleven years.

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Speaker 2: I Am not worrying about where the next meal comes from. Right,

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Speaker 2: So I'm in a position where I just have to

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Speaker 2: admit my privilege. It's easier for me to speak up

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Speaker 2: and have that conversation. But when they mentioned the cancel culture,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I suddenly turned a different lens on it,

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Speaker 2: and I put it on myself and I was like,

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Speaker 2: where have I filtered? Where have I not spoken up?

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Speaker 2: And I actually suddenly found a list and there was

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Speaker 2: a list. But I was like, oh, there's times when,

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Speaker 2: if all things were equal, I probably should have spoken

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Speaker 2: up and said something. But I did the thing that

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Speaker 2: I tell everyone else not to do, which is, you know,

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Speaker 2: I just someone else will do it it's fine, or they

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Speaker 2: know they're self aware, they don't need me, or now

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Speaker 2: it's not a good time, I'll do it next time, right,

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Speaker 2: And so I did all the rationalization that we all

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Speaker 2: have kicks in every now and then, and if I

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Speaker 2: look back, it's because I sent right. It's a sense

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Speaker 2: and a belief that the consequences were too high, so

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Speaker 2: it wasn't worth it.

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Speaker 1: So can you give me an example of where you

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Speaker 1: did hold back and what the consequences were in your mind,

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Speaker 1: whether that be real or perceived consequences.

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Speaker 2: So there was there was a specific workshop that was

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Speaker 2: the very first memory that triggered me, right, And I

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Speaker 2: remember sitting there and thinking it was going off track,

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Speaker 2: probably like midway through the first morning, and in my head.

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Speaker 2: And this is a fascinating thing about this topic. It's

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Speaker 2: the voice in the head which me, and you know,

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Speaker 2: is highly irrational, very mean, and quite cutting. Right. It's

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Speaker 2: not a support at all. But the voice in my

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Speaker 2: head is saying, if you speak up now, you know,

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Speaker 2: how are you going to be perceived? It's you again,

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Speaker 2: it's you doing that thing you do. And so I'm

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Speaker 2: having a whole chat in my head. And the net

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Speaker 2: result of that chat was don't speak up right, let

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Speaker 2: the workshop run its course. Now I think I was

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Speaker 2: half right and half wrong. I needed to let it

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Speaker 2: run a little bit and maybe I could navigate or

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Speaker 2: be suggestive. I didn't need to bang the table and

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Speaker 2: go this is a complete waste of time. Now you're

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Speaker 2: all idiots. I started gonna, that's not what I was suggesting,

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Speaker 2: but I misconstrued how my words would be interpreted so

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Speaker 2: much that it was safer not to say anything and

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Speaker 2: hope that the workshop works itself out, which again me

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Speaker 2: and you know, very rarely happens. Right. You don't cause

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Speaker 2: correct well by accident, you cause correct on purpose. So

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Speaker 2: I ended up waiting till the end of the first day.

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Speaker 2: When I had a moment with the person facilitating I

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Speaker 2: was like, hey, and they're like, how do you think

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Speaker 2: it's going? Really good, right, I was like, ah, not great,

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Speaker 2: and so I finally got the confidence up to say

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Speaker 2: something and the look of horror on their face and

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Speaker 2: the only words they said back, which destroyed me, they

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Speaker 2: were like, I just wish you'd said something earlier. Then

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Speaker 2: I could have done something. And I was like, oh no.

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Speaker 1: Not having the difficult conversation has massive consequences. So I

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Speaker 1: want to ask, why is this so much now? Why

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Speaker 1: was I not hearing and maybe you weren't hearing back

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three, because we're recording this in October

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. What is happening now that is making

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Speaker 1: this so hard to have these conversations.

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Speaker 2: I think there's a few dynamicxit player. I think just generally,

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Speaker 2: we've spent so long talking about psychological safety that we've

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Speaker 2: not realized it's a set of actions, it's not a

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Speaker 2: set of words. So I think that's and I've seen

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Speaker 2: that play out right, And I know we've spoke about

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Speaker 2: this before. I seen it in saying you know, we're

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Speaker 2: in a safe space, and you're like, you know, you

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Speaker 2: don't get to say that and create it right. It's

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Speaker 2: how I feel, not the words to come out of

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Speaker 2: your mouth, right, So yeah, a bit of a like

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Speaker 2: red flag number one. I think psychological safety as a

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Speaker 2: term is banded around, but probably not that well understood

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Speaker 2: in terms of the actions you take to create it.

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Speaker 2: I also think, like in all honesty, I think we're

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Speaker 2: still building the muscle of how to work in a

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Speaker 2: distributed world. I don't think it's entirely natural for many

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Speaker 2: of us. Right, I'm forty six years old. So if

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Speaker 2: you think, like when the pandemic hit, I was like

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Speaker 2: forty one, So I'd worked for twenty one years in

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Speaker 2: predominantly office environments, right, always in multinational organizations around the world.

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Speaker 2: But I had a desk and an office and a screen, right,

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Speaker 2: and that was the mechanism of work. And for the

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Speaker 2: last sort of four years that's not been the case.

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Speaker 2: That that's four years to learn a new way of

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Speaker 2: working after twenty one years of that way being ingrains.

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Speaker 2: So I think we've not done enough unlearning. And I

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Speaker 2: think the pengdulum swing of return to office no flexibility, No,

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Speaker 2: it's hybrid like that whole pendulum swings that sort of

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Speaker 2: not helped. And then just thirdly, I think the cancel

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Speaker 2: culture has crept in and I spoken about a wonderful

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Speaker 2: conversation with a lady by an Mfmy Penn recently. She

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Speaker 2: was saying that she's been coaching a whold of like

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Speaker 2: middle aged guys who were like, I don put my

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Speaker 2: hand up and go for promotion because I'm a middle

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Speaker 2: aged white guy. And I was like what she explained it.

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, we've kind of we've had the reverse.

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Speaker 2: So the example I'd give, and I saw this firsthand

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Speaker 2: with one of my customers recently, one of the senior

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Speaker 2: leaders is like they had a diversity and inclusion person

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Speaker 2: that just took great enjoyment in pointing out the one

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Speaker 2: thing that you got wrong. And so one of the

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Speaker 2: leaders had put out of communication it was ninety nine

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Speaker 2: percent right, one percent wrong, and they got pulled over

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Speaker 2: the coals for it being wrong. Is wrong, Like it

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Speaker 2: wasn't a fully inclusive communication. You got it wrong. So

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Speaker 2: that leader's just stopped communicating. They've not changed how they communicate.

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Speaker 2: They're like, there's no point I feel do it that

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Speaker 2: well and still get pulled over the coals. I just

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Speaker 2: won't do it again. And they're in a leadership position,

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Speaker 2: So just think about it. If this is a leader

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Speaker 2: who should be storytelling to tell a story to build

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Speaker 2: awareness and context and psychological safety, and they decide not

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Speaker 2: to because they think the consequences are too high. You've

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Speaker 2: just lost psychological safety. So no one's going to speak

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Speaker 2: up anymore. Like it. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. So

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Speaker 2: I like in it. And I know you've got kids

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Speaker 2: as well. When when me and Becker first had their kids,

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Speaker 2: and then we had a conversation which was, let's start

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Speaker 2: every situation with forgiveness. We're tired, this is our first

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Speaker 2: time of being parents. We're going to get it wrong.

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Speaker 2: Don't shout at me for getting it wrong. Try and

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Speaker 2: understand what happened and how it went wrong. Right, So

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Speaker 2: starting with forgiveness that feels normal in a relationship, but

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Speaker 2: in the work context, I'm going to start by pointing

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Speaker 2: out the thing that you're missing, not the things that

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Speaker 2: you've gotten. That just seems like a dangerous precedent to me.

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Speaker 1: I would love to get into how you approach difficult conversations,

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Speaker 1: and I might share some of the things that I do,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think that I am doing it particularly well.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely an area where I need work so I'm

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Speaker 1: keen to learn from you, dom, I would love to

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Speaker 1: know to start with, what are the main types of

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Speaker 1: difficult conversations that you're finding you're having and maybe others

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Speaker 1: at lassiean and needing to have in the workplace.

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Speaker 2: It's almost always a derivation of feedback, right, And it

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Speaker 2: could be feedback in there, here's something you did or

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Speaker 2: didn't do. It could be feedback in that. Every now

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Speaker 2: and then, yeah, I work I saw for with this

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Speaker 2: as well. We don't all have one hundred percent of

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Speaker 2: self awareness. So every now and then it's on telling

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Speaker 2: you something that you've not act knowledge door scene yet

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Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, like, I don't know how that's

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Speaker 2: going to go down. So it's normally pointing something out

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Speaker 2: that is somewhat controversial or fueled in some way. Right,

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Speaker 2: it's a hot topic where you're nervous about the consequences. Right,

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Speaker 2: it feels like there might be recourse. That's why it's fascinating,

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Speaker 2: because one of the first things is just reframe, Right,

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Speaker 2: it's just conversation. The fact that we label it difficult

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Speaker 2: conversation or crucial conversation, suddenly we've upped the odds and

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Speaker 2: you're like, oh no, this is now a difficult conversation

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Speaker 2: I must go and prepare for said in whose eyes?

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Speaker 2: Is it difficult? Like we've already labeled it a bad thing? Right,

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Speaker 2: so mindset wise, God knows chemically what's going on in

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Speaker 2: our brain. When you're like, I'm now sitting you down

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Speaker 2: for a difficult and I imagine this. Someone did that, Amantha,

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Speaker 2: I'm now going to sit you down for a difficult conversation,

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Speaker 2: You're like, why is it difficult? What's difficult about it?

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Speaker 2: So I actually the reframe of like, either if I

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Speaker 2: don't say this what happens as you said before? Or

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Speaker 2: other than that, I think about it as a gift.

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Speaker 2: If it's someone's not seen some and I'm helping them

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Speaker 2: build more awareness, and I'm doing it with good intent,

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Speaker 2: I'm not doing it for one upmanship or for maliciousness,

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Speaker 2: then that's a gift. It genuinely should be a gift.

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Speaker 2: And if I reframe it like that, my words are

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Speaker 2: very different.

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Speaker 1: What else are you doing to prepare for that conversation?

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Speaker 2: Lots of questions? If you know me well enough to

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Speaker 2: not I suffer with an abundance of confidence, which can

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Speaker 2: be quite destructive and so I'm always like, oh, if

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Speaker 2: I've seen something and I've used the halo effectacy again

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Speaker 2: and again and again, what biases am I applying to

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Speaker 2: this That might may or may not be true, but

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Speaker 2: they're certainly influencing the way I'm seeing it. I always

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Speaker 2: think that for any stimulus you put in the middle

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Speaker 2: of a room, if hundred dollars stood around a circle,

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Speaker 2: we're all looking at the same thing, but we've got

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Speaker 2: a different view. And so I have to check my

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Speaker 2: biases every now and then and then. Normally the hardest

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Speaker 2: question to answer, but one that's full of wonderment is

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Speaker 2: what might be going on for that person right now.

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Speaker 2: It's not that you can ever answer that, but it's

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Speaker 2: just one of going You probably know a fraction of

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Speaker 2: a percentage of what's happening with them, so be careful.

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Speaker 2: I don't don't make assumptions about what's going on with them,

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Speaker 2: and therefore charging with answers, maybe charging there subtly, but

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Speaker 2: with questions like what is going on right now? How

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Speaker 2: are you going? Like? So, the question I asked this person,

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Speaker 2: I was like, how did you think that the workshop went?

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Speaker 2: And they were like amazing, And I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: good good in that case, would you like my view?

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Speaker 2: Because as a participant, But my question to them was,

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Speaker 2: what are you seeing that made you think it was amazing?

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Speaker 2: Because I'm genuinely curious about that you They weren't lying.

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Speaker 2: They genuinely thought it was So I'm like, you explain

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Speaker 2: your world and it'll make me more aware of what

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Speaker 2: you what signals you took in. Too many of us

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Speaker 2: enter the conversation to go. So I'm going to persuade

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Speaker 2: you why I'm right and you're wrong. And that's not

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Speaker 2: a difficult conversation. That's a one way conversation, versus tell

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Speaker 2: me more about your situation, your world, what's going on?

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Speaker 2: How did you find that that that's bringing them into

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Speaker 2: the conversation. It's a completely different model.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because I can see how that can apply

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Speaker 1: to giving someone feedback. But I wonder when it is

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Speaker 1: an objectively hard conversation, like let's just say it's pay

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Speaker 1: review time. Someone hasn't hit their targets and you're there

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Speaker 1: to tell them you're not getting a pay rise for

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Speaker 1: another twelve months. Like that is not a fun conversation.

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Speaker 1: There is no way of spinning that to go. But

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Speaker 1: what's your perspective. Do you maybe think this is the wrongnesta?

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Speaker 1: How is it different in those instances where I think

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Speaker 1: we can agree this is objectively not a good conversation

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Speaker 1: to be having for anyone.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I'm just like an absolute narcissist, but I've had

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Speaker 2: those conversations in my career and I don't mind them

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Speaker 2: because the normal normally based off a fact like this

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Speaker 2: was your target. You did not hit that target. So

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Speaker 2: I think facts are friends. Right when you've got a fact,

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Speaker 2: you're like, oh, this isn't my opinion anymore. It's not

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Speaker 2: I don't think you made your target. You didn't make

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Speaker 2: your target. But you're like, cool, okay, so that didn't happen,

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Speaker 2: and the consequences of that are and then normally it's

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Speaker 2: a reset to go how do you feel about that?

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Speaker 2: Because I always want to check in with the person

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Speaker 2: as that make you feel if they're like I expected

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Speaker 2: it and you hadn't in my target, but you're like okay,

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Speaker 2: or they're like I didn't meet it and I still

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Speaker 2: think I should have had one hundred percent pay around

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Speaker 2: you're like, okay, that's a different problem to solve, but

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Speaker 2: I need to know your perspective is a very important

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Speaker 2: data point. But then that's a flip of a conversation

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Speaker 2: to go do you want an invite? Do you want

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Speaker 2: to have a career conversation about what thriving looks like

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Speaker 2: here and how we can work together to do that,

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Speaker 2: or don't you That's a genuine option, and because sometimes

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Speaker 2: people are like, nah, I've reached my pinnacle or I'm

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Speaker 2: done here. I don't like it and I want to

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Speaker 2: move on, Like, oh, there's no point me shouldar coating

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Speaker 2: into the bad news. You're done here and let's have

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Speaker 2: a chat about how we help you gracefully exit and

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Speaker 2: what's next. Or they're like, no, I'm in here's the

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Speaker 2: circumstances that meant I didn't nail it last year. How

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Speaker 2: can we have a conversation about what that looks like

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Speaker 2: if I'm thriving. I think what makes that conversation harder,

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Speaker 2: Maanther is how long we leave it for. It's the

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Speaker 2: time difference between missing the target and having the chat.

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Speaker 2: Because you missed the target, having that chat is in context, Hey,

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Speaker 2: who's your target? We set? That's fair, Like, let's have

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Speaker 2: a meaningful conversation about why did you miss what the ups,

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Speaker 2: what were the downs, what the circumstances. That's a great

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Speaker 2: time to have that conversation. Three months later, when you

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Speaker 2: book a meeting with the person, that's an ambush. It's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is a fate to complete. You missed, you don't

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Speaker 2: like it's over, and so I don't think that's a

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Speaker 2: particularly engaging conversation. I that's when I used to work

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Speaker 2: with it. So bad news doesn't get better with time,

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Speaker 2: and it doesn't, but we just leave it too long

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Speaker 2: with the hope that something magical will make it better.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't, so it then feels like an ambush and

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Speaker 2: it's too late. I can't cause correct, I can't do

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Speaker 2: anything different.

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Speaker 1: We will be back with Don soon, and when we return,

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Speaker 1: we'll be discussing the unique way he prepares for difficult

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Speaker 1: conversations and his advice on what you can do to

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Speaker 1: safely have a difficult conversation with someone in a higher

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Speaker 1: position than you. If you're looking for more tips to

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Speaker 1: improve the way you work can live. I write a

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Speaker 1: short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have

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Speaker 1: helped me personally. You can sign up for that at

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Speaker 1: Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. You mentioned that

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Speaker 1: you ask like or you think about in preparation for

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Speaker 1: the conversation, asking questions like do you write these down?

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Speaker 1: Because I know you're a natural question asker. I can

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Speaker 1: very well see you just going in and improvising brilliantly

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Speaker 1: in these conversations. But do you actually prepare, like sit

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Speaker 1: down and write the things that are on your mind,

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Speaker 1: the things that you're curious about, even do a role play.

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Speaker 1: Does any of this happen in your world?

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Speaker 2: No, not in a glamorous way. What I do do

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Speaker 2: is I write down themes for my style of learning

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Speaker 2: and work. Questions can be my enemy because if I

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Speaker 2: have questions written down, I will ask them even if

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Speaker 2: the answer to the previous question made the next question

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Speaker 2: nulanvom right, because I'm like, well, it's here that's getting

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Speaker 2: you like, that's weird. It's like I'm working with a

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Speaker 2: machine now versus saying thematically, what do I want to cover?

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Speaker 2: So like thematically, what I want to cover right now

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Speaker 2: with you is what's happening at home or life in general.

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Speaker 2: I want to cover the specific of you're working your task,

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Speaker 2: and I want to cover the fact that you missed

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Speaker 2: three months off because you had to sick leave. Right,

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Speaker 2: they're the things I want to cover, And under the

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Speaker 2: banner of those, I want to ask the most open

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Speaker 2: question possible, not leading questions, but open questions. I want

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Speaker 2: to give you an honest chance to share and portray

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Speaker 2: your view the world. Again, you're not right, I'm not right.

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Speaker 2: You're not wrong, I'm not wrong. We can have a

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Speaker 2: difference of opinion. But with those questions, I'm like, these

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Speaker 2: are the three themes, right, the three data points. Let's

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Speaker 2: talk about them. Which one do you want to start with?

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Speaker 2: Is normally like my first question because I want them

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Speaker 2: to pick. I don't want to say I want to

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Speaker 2: start with your sales technique, right, because I think that's

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Speaker 2: the most important. I want then say, you know what,

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Speaker 2: the thing I really want to start with is the

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Speaker 2: home situation. Here's my environment right now in my life

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Speaker 2: and what's going on. You're like, ah, okay, that gives

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Speaker 2: me a rich context as to why other things are happening.

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Speaker 2: But letting them build their own adventure there gives me

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of answers that they're not giving me

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Speaker 2: that if I ask a specific question, I might get

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Speaker 2: a specific answer but I don't know the answer I

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Speaker 2: would have got if I'd asked the broader question. And

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Speaker 2: so when I treat these as a genuine two way conversation,

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Speaker 2: and for that, I have to give myself the permission

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Speaker 2: of time, which we don't give ourselves. Were like, I've

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Speaker 2: got ten minutes to have a crucial conversation your crap right,

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Speaker 2: versus going, I've got an hour for this. And it's

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Speaker 2: not that I've got a single objective in mind to

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Speaker 2: make you think that you're bad. I just want to

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Speaker 2: cover the data points and have a rich tapestry for

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Speaker 2: conversation and agree some kind of next steps. And so

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Speaker 2: when I give myself time to do that, and I've

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Speaker 2: been questions in those themes, that feels like a nice

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Speaker 2: structure for me versus these are the specific questions I

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Speaker 2: want to ask, because I find I get specific answers

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Speaker 2: which often satisfy what I wanted to hear.

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Speaker 1: M It's funny, don't we prepare in such different ways?

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Speaker 1: Like I feel like I'm pretty good at improvising, I

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Speaker 1: even studied it for many years of my life. But

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Speaker 1: when I know that I have a difficult conversation and

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Speaker 1: I like your point about Well, if you're framing it

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Speaker 1: in your mind that it's going to be a difficult conversation,

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Speaker 1: then that's not helping anyone. But sometimes the reality is

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Speaker 1: I know that I'm here to deliver some news that

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Speaker 1: is going to be hard to take, and that is

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Speaker 1: objectively going to be a bit of a crappy conversation.

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Speaker 1: I think I go the other way. I do a

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Speaker 1: lot of preparation and I sort of I write down

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Speaker 1: different possibilities. I think about what can I control, And

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Speaker 1: something I always want to be in a difficult conversation

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Speaker 1: is I want to be clear because I feel like

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Speaker 1: clarity is very helpful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, vagaries don't help anyone in those conversations, No.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like people err on the side of

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Speaker 1: being vague and indirect because that almost feels like the

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Speaker 1: easier option.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, feel safer.

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Speaker 1: It does. It does. So I will write down what

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Speaker 1: are the key messages that I feel like I need

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Speaker 1: to clearly deliver in this conversation. And it's funny. I

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Speaker 1: love how you are giving the person that you're having

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Speaker 1: that conversation with a lot of autonomy to choose their

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Speaker 1: own adventure. I'm learning from that because in my mind

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, what is the best structure to get across

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Speaker 1: these things that feel difficult that I need to get across.

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Speaker 1: And I think, you know, some conversations it is more

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Speaker 1: about feedback and it can go in different ways. But

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Speaker 1: maybe more recently, I've had to have a few tough

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Speaker 1: conversations that it's like I've got news to deliver. It sucks,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like I need to create a bit

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Speaker 1: of a guidebook for myself and then I will role

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Speaker 1: play with my partner if it's a really difficult conversation

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Speaker 1: that I'm feeling stressed about. And I feel like I

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Speaker 1: spend an inordinate amount of time preparing for these conversations.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's making me any better at them.

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Speaker 1: I think it's maybe increasing my nerves because of the

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Speaker 1: weight that I'm putting on it. Would you give me

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Speaker 1: dom about this process, because it's like leagues apart from yours.

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Speaker 2: I think the first headline is preparation is not bad.

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Speaker 2: I'd hate someone to take away from this conversation that

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Speaker 2: just goes your instinct and fly by the seat your

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Speaker 2: pandag that's going to create a hold of really wacky,

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Speaker 2: like messed up crucial conversations. So I think a little

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Speaker 2: bit of preparation goes well. I prepare with themes, understanding

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Speaker 2: and context. I get my facts. I've always got my

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Speaker 2: bully point facts written down that I want to make

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Speaker 2: sure I cover. But but I'm doing a very different

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Speaker 2: type of prep to you. So I think, regardless of

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Speaker 2: what kind of personality style you are, preparation's good. Over

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Speaker 2: preparation isn't good. And there isn't a moment when you

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Speaker 2: go at that minute you over prepared. I think it's

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Speaker 2: when you think you can control the conversation, and that,

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Speaker 2: for me, is this massive red flag. And I've fallen

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Speaker 2: into this trap before of thinking it's my conversation and

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Speaker 2: it's not. It's our conversation. And if I'm role playing

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Speaker 2: and they have no idea what I'm role playing for

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Speaker 2: and they only get that in the first thirty seconds,

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Speaker 2: and they would tell you, I don't worry. I spent

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Speaker 2: all night rehearsing when partner, I've got this. I've got

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Speaker 2: it down to fifty five minutes. Right, No, right, Like

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Speaker 2: that's that's not a conversation anymore, that's a broadcast. So

430
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,919
Speaker 2: I think preparation is good, but we need to just

431
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,719
Speaker 2: be honest that these conversations are very rarely perfect, and

432
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 2: so how do you let them take on some level

433
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 2: of organic and natural course. And for that, I'm like,

434
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,440
Speaker 2: I need to open my ears and close my math.

435
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 2: Occasionally some prep goes well, but I'm like, I need

436
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,920
Speaker 2: to be open to the idea that this conversation might

437
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,440
Speaker 2: be derailed and that could be a good thing.

438
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 1: I'm hearing that. I feel like maybe I maybe I've

439
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,199
Speaker 1: gone too far in over preparing. I sometimes think this

440
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 1: in my partner comments, he said, Oh my gosh, the

441
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 1: amount of time you spend preparing for conversations that are

442
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 1: going to be challenging. I've never seen anyone spend that

443
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:52,119
Speaker 1: much time preparing.

444
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 2: What drives you to do that? I get what you're doing.

445
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 2: What's the driving force?

446
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question. I think that you know,

447
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 1: for reasons that I'm sure emerge in just like my

448
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,920
Speaker 1: upbringing and my experience as a child, I think I

449
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 1: have a fear of the person that I'm speaking to

450
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 1: about the difficult thing getting really angry with me. And

451
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 1: that like when I figured that out, actually figured that

452
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,199
Speaker 1: out in therapy because I was talking to my therapist

453
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 1: about a really difficult conversation I was preparing for and

454
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 1: he said, what do you think is going to happen?

455
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 1: And I said, I think they're going to scream at

456
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 1: me or that's what that's my deepest fear, and that

457
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 1: really happens in most workplaces. Well, I guess not. You know,

458
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 1: there is ani workplaces that would happen.

459
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 2: It's also like it's still in mine.

460
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think I have a fear of being maybe

461
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 1: misconstrued or misinterpreted, and I think that feeds into that

462
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 1: cancel culture where I've experienced that in the past, where

463
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 1: I've just I've got one small thing wrong and it's

464
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 1: just had really big consequences.

465
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, the nineteen right, and the one said exactly, it

466
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 2: can be paralyzed. Yeah, because when you've put so much

467
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,360
Speaker 2: of your and your heart and soul kind of person, right,

468
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 2: you've run your own business, you've scaled up a business,

469
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,360
Speaker 2: you care about your people. When you're doing that, it's

470
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 2: not all about profit. There's a lot of care involved, right,

471
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 2: And when you do that, and so one goes, here's

472
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: the one thing you got wrong. I just want to

473
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 2: flip the table and take those people down because you're like,

474
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 2: why can't you account for the bits that went well.

475
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 2: I'm happy to have the chat about the one percent

476
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 2: that went wrong, but can we have the context of

477
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 2: when it went wrong and how and all the things

478
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 2: that went well, because otherwise it seems a little bit

479
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:27,160
Speaker 2: overly negative.

480
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 1: I mean, imagine if people started doing that dom I

481
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 1: feel like that would be quite transformative. Something else I'm

482
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 1: curious about, something I am aware of in myself, is

483
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 1: that just in those few minutes before I entered the

484
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: zoom call or the team's call or whatever channel I'm

485
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: having this difficult conversation through, is that I feel my

486
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 1: nerves and I've started using different breathing techniques just to

487
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,199
Speaker 1: calm myself down, just in those three to four minutes

488
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 1: before I connect with that person. Do you experience nerves

489
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: before these conversations? Yeah, I can't imagine you experiencing nerves.

490
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 2: I can't explain it. I do the other scenarios where

491
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 2: I feel nerves or nervous excitement, like when people explain

492
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: the negative nerves that the anxiety, the heart poplitation. I

493
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 2: don't think I've ever had that, or not in my

494
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 2: recent memory, ever had that. And the weird thing for

495
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 2: me is I'm actually the opposite of that. If I

496
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 2: can give them one insight that makes them more rounded

497
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: as a leader, that's the gift of the session. If

498
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 2: they hate me at the end of that, so be it.

499
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 2: I can't control their mood and feelings towards but I can't,

500
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 2: So I'm going to like I can influence it, can't

501
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 2: control it, but I can control whether I'm honest with

502
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 2: them or not. So if I'm honest with them and

503
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: I give them the gift of a bit of feedback

504
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 2: or an insight or a lesson or something that says, hey,

505
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 2: I think if you can find a way of building

506
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 2: this into your liding style, I think you become a

507
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 2: more rounded leader. And here's why. Here's the example, here's

508
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,959
Speaker 2: the scenario. Then I've done much job right. So it's

509
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 2: like a weird flip moment. But the nerves, I don't

510
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 2: know why. Maybe it's a weird childhood thing. I just

511
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 2: don't get nerves in those scenarios.

512
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: What you're saying around the reframing what you're about to

513
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: say as a gift. I like that, But what if

514
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 1: it's genuinely not like what if it is just an

515
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: objectively crappy conversation like I'm sorry, we have to let

516
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: you go, or your performance is not up to scratch,

517
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: you are fired. Are you still finding a way to

518
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: see that as a gift because you're freeing them up

519
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: for the thing that they're meant to be doing. Like,

520
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: how are you viewing that?

521
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 2: The gifts in things? Sounds geeky right when you apply

522
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 2: to overy scenario, it sounds a bit tripe, right, But

523
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 2: I'm like, where do we use the word positive in

524
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 2: any negative situation? Are there some positives we can take

525
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 2: from it? Yeah? There are. Now whether you look at

526
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 2: those positives or not completely up to you. If you

527
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 2: don't just live in the negative, I think you're going

528
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 2: to spiral down. So that's your choice. But my choice

529
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 2: would be to lay in a little bit and not

530
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: false positivity, but like honest positivity, which is, hey, it

531
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 2: didn't work out here. Here's why my suggestions you would

532
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 2: be the next time you're looking for a job in

533
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 2: a different environment, look for these kind of facets. I

534
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 2: think you might do it a little bit better in

535
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: this kind of environment rather than this one that didn't

536
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: really suit you. Right, they're not going to like that,

537
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 2: but I think that gives them something directionally to say,

538
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 2: you still need work, if you still need to keep

539
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 2: a roof over your head and feed your family and

540
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 2: whatever else. So when you go out for work, can

541
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 2: I give you a suggestion about where you might find

542
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 2: that right or next time? Your attitude in these scenarios

543
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 2: meant that you were hard to work with, so no

544
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,360
Speaker 2: one worked with you. Maybe have a think about why

545
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 2: you're turning up like that. Is there some where you

546
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 2: can get help from? Right? Is it some kind of

547
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 2: counseling service or mentor or coach or like you said that,

548
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 2: therapy where you can go and understand why you are

549
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 2: the way you are. So with the harshest feedback of had,

550
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:44,959
Speaker 2: even though it hurt, and even when it was from

551
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 2: someone that I didn't like, still had a grain of

552
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 2: truth in it. Now I could easily use the power

553
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 2: of rascalization and go, I don't like that person, So

554
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 2: I'm going to choose to ignore it, or you go,

555
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 2: or I can partner the fact that I don't like

556
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 2: them and go. They still felt that way enough to

557
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 2: say it out loud. So maybe there's a grain of

558
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: salt in it, and maybe I should be a little

559
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: bit reflective about why it happened in that way.

560
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: How about during the conversation. And I know you're not

561
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: the biggest fan of frameworks, but you know sometimes they're

562
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 1: useful when it comes to delivering feedback.

563
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 2: In a tough conversation. Having some structure, like even if

564
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 2: it's like I want to spend twenty minutes here, ten

565
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: here and ten here, like anything.

566
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: Like that just helps tell me what structure or framework

567
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: or kind of guidelines do you use when you're thinking

568
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: about how to deliver feedback to someone in a way

569
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: that they're really going to hear it.

570
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 2: The first most important thing for me is context, like

571
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 2: either me providing them context about why we're having the

572
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: conversation and all them providing me with context about where

573
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 2: they're at. And then as early as possible, and like,

574
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 2: here's a set of facts. So the truth is, we

575
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 2: had a workshop together and the objective of that workshop

576
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 2: was to get all of our stakeholders aligned on our mission.

577
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 2: How did you feel that when and I said, Okay,

578
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: what does the feedback sey? Because you feel like it

579
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 2: went well well, but let's present the other fact. What

580
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 2: did the feedback say from the stakeholders? Oh, sixty percent

581
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 2: and forty percent weren't that bothered. Okay, the data is

582
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 2: telling us that we didn't quite get there. If we

583
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: had our time again, what could we've done differently to

584
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 2: get more stakeholders on board of that workshop? Which stakeholders

585
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 2: do you think we missed? And then normally it's me

586
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 2: giving them some feedback around if to get that higher?

587
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: Here's three suggestions, right, here's something that we could do

588
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 2: better to drive that. What help do you need the

589
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 2: next time you want a workshop? Because this is going

590
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: to happen again. That's always the part of the conversation

591
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 2: that I think gets missed. So I think we call

592
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 2: it a difficult conversation. Can we think about the bit

593
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: in the middle that here's why I have to tell

594
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: you the workshop didn't go well? We forget about why

595
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: do you think the workshop didn't go well? And we

596
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 2: forget about that, how can I help you do a

597
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 2: workshop better next time? We forget about those bits and

598
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 2: go I'm pre plaed to give you some really bad news.

599
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 2: And so I think just just that that is, as

600
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: a rough structure for me, is a conversation, and it

601
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: doesn't flow in a linear fashion, right, I jump around,

602
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: But they're the elements that I'm trying to bring in

603
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: for any the observation I share, there's got to be

604
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 2: a so what next time this happens, what are we

605
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 2: going to do differently? And if the answer is nothing,

606
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 2: you've clearly not heard the feedback.

607
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,239
Speaker 1: So there's the shared context, there's the facts, there's the

608
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: feedback that emerges from the facts.

609
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 2: It has normally got like an asterisk of behavior as well.

610
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 2: That's what I'm trying to bring in behavior, right. So

611
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: and that workshop example, it's like when you didn't engage

612
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 2: with this specific stakeholder, that's why I think they didn't

613
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,479
Speaker 2: score the workshop positively, right, They didn't feel like they

614
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 2: were engaged properly. So that the behavior was you spoke

615
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 2: to these three people that you know well, you forgot

616
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 2: about the fourth person that you didn't know as well.

617
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: Did you realize you did that in the workshop you

618
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: spent more time with ABNC and not enough time with D.

619
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: So then you're giving them advice and working at if

620
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: they essentially need help implementing that advice. Is there a

621
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: point where you're asking them to come up with their

622
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: own solutions? Does that happen between the feedback giving and

623
00:29:59,080 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: the advice give?

624
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,959
Speaker 2: Typically Yeah, it's normally the question of h the statement,

625
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 2: this is going to happen again, So how did we

626
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 2: achieve a different outcome? Or if you had your time again,

627
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 2: how would you do it differently? Again? Going back through

628
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 2: that scenario can be quite helpful because it's not abstract,

629
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: it's real. It happened right as you could go, Oh,

630
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 2: if I had my time again after lunch, I think

631
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 2: I would have done another icebreaker and got I would

632
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: have sent those people were engaged, or I could have

633
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 2: done a reflective exercise just before lunch. We could have

634
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 2: done thumbs right, has a one feeling, And if I

635
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 2: would have picked the people that were thumb sideways not awesome,

636
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: not awful, I would have grabbed them at lunch time

637
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 2: and checked in why and course corrected right. See like, oh,

638
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 2: can we do that next time? Because they all sound

639
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: very dual. Yes we can. Cool, let's do those next time.

640
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: So now we set a new expectation of how we're

641
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 2: going to perform, rather than you didn't perform, So we

642
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 2: use the inspiration, right, the trigger of it didn't go well,

643
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 2: that's the trigger. The purpose of the conversation, though, isn't

644
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: that the purpose of the conversation is how do we

645
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: make it better next time? That's the only point of

646
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 2: having a conversation. If all I do is tell you

647
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 2: about it something I've just buried you. I've not made

648
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 2: you a better person. I've made you a worst person.

649
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: What do you do after the conversation, Because that sounds

650
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: like a really productive conversation that you're having. What is

651
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: your role as the feedback giver in making sure that

652
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: behavior does change for the better and that you're not

653
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: sitting with that person a month later with the exact

654
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: same feedback.

655
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was one a while ago, probably about year ago,

656
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: except the person Just so you know, that wasn't an

657
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: enjoyable conversation for me. I don't want to be having

658
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: this conversation again in six months time. So what do

659
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 2: I need to do or what do we need to

660
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 2: do like this? There's accountability on both us here because

661
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: I don't want to be doing this dance again. It's

662
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 2: it's not a great use of my sumon and I

663
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 2: think it's a great use of yours. Neither is there

664
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 2: in a great mood after it. It was important, but

665
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 2: it wasn't a high five or round bouncy conversation. And

666
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 2: then what we came out with there was we agreed milestones,

667
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 2: so it wasn't just actually it's like, hey, here's the

668
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: things I'm going to go away and try in the

669
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: next four weeks. Let's check it in in four weeks time.

670
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 2: I was like, Oohl, what progress do you think you

671
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 2: will have made in four weeks that I can hold

672
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: you account before, Like, you help set my expectation of

673
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: what I should see, because you're not going to have

674
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 2: miraculously changed, but like, what does progress look like at

675
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 2: that milestone? And then at the two months and the

676
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 2: three and we agreed that that was a healthy conversation.

677
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 2: That they also included some feedback for me in there

678
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 2: that they didn't feel I'd been particularly clear in my expectation.

679
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 2: I was like, good feedback. And then we talked about

680
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 2: the anti pattern. So I was like, Hey, the anti

681
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: pattern here is next time you're in a workshop, I

682
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 2: dive in and run it. That's the anti pattern. No

683
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 2: one's won there, I've used my time on something that

684
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 2: I should be doing. You've lost control of the situation,

685
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 2: so you feel kind of disengaged, right, kind of not

686
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 2: very empowered, and we should agree that that's the anti pattern.

687
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: Anti pattern. I've never heard that term before. Anti pattern.

688
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, we use it all the time to go, how

689
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 2: do we call out the inadvertent bad behavior or the

690
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: negative thing? Right? So it's just a healthy way of going.

691
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 2: Every way of working has a set of consequences that

692
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 2: we can't always see. So you're like, oh, let's see them,

693
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 2: let's call them out. What might go wrong here? And

694
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: therefore let's call that out now it reduces the chance

695
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: to be happening.

696
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: I want to circle back to something that we touched

697
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: on right at the beginning, which is around psych safety.

698
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: How then have you coached, say, other people you know

699
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: within your workplace or people that you help where they

700
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: maybe need to have a difficult conversation with someone that

701
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: is higher up in the hierarchy. But they're saying, dom,

702
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: I just don't feel psychologically safe. What advice do you

703
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: give them?

704
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: It's normally a question of what's your intended outcome here?

705
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: What's the real goal? Then it's taught me through this situation,

706
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 2: give me the examples what happened like, and that's me

707
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 2: sense checking their examples to their goal, right, which are

708
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 2: almost always out of kill tech, Like my goal is

709
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 2: it's a gift, don't want to help them be a

710
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: better leader. And you're like and then I'm like cool,

711
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 2: like taught me to the example of like and they

712
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: said this, and they said that, and you're like, that's

713
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: basically you've become a gossip. You're trying to diminish the person.

714
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 2: So is there's clearly a power issue dynamic or a

715
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,439
Speaker 2: political dynamic here that you're not talking to me about that.

716
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 2: That's there, right, And that's part of the coaching to go, Hey,

717
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: if you went into that conversation that way, everyone's a loser. Right.

718
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 2: So there's the lose loose scenario. They feel like crap,

719
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 2: they've lost all faith in you. You're not going to

720
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 2: give me on a project again. They don't want to

721
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 2: work with you that's going to pay rise. Like, that's

722
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 2: a lose lose. What does the win win look like? Right?

723
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 2: And what might be the scenarios where you help them

724
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 2: and they help you, and where your relationship has improved

725
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 2: from that conversation not deteriorated. And that's hard because when

726
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 2: you look at those conversations play out, the majority of

727
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 2: them are deterioration of relationship versus going if my intent

728
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 2: here is to build bonds and fix the relationship. How

729
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 2: might I turn up to help do that? Right? And

730
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 2: it's it's kind of the old school olive branch. I

731
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 2: often in those situations like I'm going to go first, right,

732
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 2: So I'm going to walk up to that person go hey,

733
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 2: I know this. Few scenarios where we work together and

734
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 2: I've pissed you off, I want to level that, like,

735
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 2: here's what happened, here's why, here's a situation. I'm not

736
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 2: right for doing it, but it happened, and I go that. However,

737
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 2: one of the things I've really loved to talk to

738
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: you about is that's okay. Is a few of the

739
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 2: things I've found how you've interacted that haven't got the

740
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 2: best out of me. Is that a conversation you'd be

741
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: will't haveing it? And if so? When right? But I've

742
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: gone first with my olive branch, so I've presented some

743
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: safety whereas I think sometimes we turn in those conversations

744
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: like we're perfect, I'm amazing, I'm here to let you

745
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: know your frailties. That's not cool, that's that's not going

746
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 2: to work. Like I'm great in you're mediocre, And it's

747
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 2: just a matter of time until I tell you that

748
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 2: that's not a relationship building conversation, it's a relationship destroying conversations.

749
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 2: So I think we're going to be really careful with

750
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 2: language and intent.

751
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: I love that Dom, Dom. I wish I'd had this

752
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,439
Speaker 1: conversation many years ago. I feel like there have been

753
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: many instances where I would have loved to have channel

754
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: your advice. So thank you so much for sharing so generously.

755
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: I know I'm definitely taking a lot of practical tips.

756
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 2: I can't wait for your feedback.

757
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: I hope you'll love this chat with Dom as much

758
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,919
Speaker 1: as I did. I know that I'll be trying out

759
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: a few of these techniques and ideas when preparing for

760
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: my next difficult conversation.

761
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 2: And if you're.

762
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,439
Speaker 1: Keen to find out more about Dom, you can find

763
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: a link to his website and social media channels in

764
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: the show notes.

765
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: If you like.

766
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: Today's show, make sure you hit follow on your podcast

767
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How I

768
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 1: Work was recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery People,

769
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: part of the Cool and Nation