WEBVTT - Zach Heinzerling: On the Rafa you never knew 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:04.480 Hello, and welcome to the sitdown. I'm Viv Christie, managing 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:06.920 editor for Australian Tennis magazine. 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.720 And I'm Metrolope, a writer and editor for ozopen dot com. 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:11.920 And Viv, why are we sitting down this week with 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:13.360 Zach Heinzelin. 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:15.920 Well, Matt, Zach is the manner of the hour really 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:18.640 in the documentary space. He is the director of Raffa, 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:22.360 the documentary that was released on Netflix during Roland Garros. 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:26.479 And in this fascinating documentary, he takes us really behind 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:29.400 the scenes, showing us Raffa the person as well as 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:32.159 Raffa the player, which he talks to a lot of 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.160 people that we've never heard from before in Rafa's life, 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:39.360 his family, his team members, he's inner circle really and yeah, 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.320 it gives you a perspective that you probably have never 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:44.479 really appreciated on Raffa's career before. 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:47.480 Yeah, and that's including us. I mean we watched this obviously, 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:49.400 and we've both worked in the tennis space for a 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.840 long time, covered the majority of Raffa's career and I think, yeah, 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:55.200 that was something that struck us about this documentary about 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:57.160 how much we didn't know it was going on behind 0:00:57.200 --> 0:00:59.120 the scenes, and we knew of the challenges, but we 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:02.080 didn't maybe know the extent of what they were. And yeah, 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:03.960 the various hurdles he had to overcome and what he 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:06.600 was playing through in a twenty plus year career. So 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:08.600 it was really fascinating to dig into that with Zach 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:10.880 and find out what made the cut and what was 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:14.880 left out in this incredible dot Ok. Zach Heinzelin, thank 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:16.759 you very much for joining us today on the sit 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:18.280 Down Podcasts. Great to have you. 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:19.679 Thanks for having me. 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:22.039 Where in the world do we find you now? We 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:24.440 were talking off camera, but for our viewers some context 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:27.040 is always good. Where are we at the moment? 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:32.560 Right now, I'm in Martha's Vineyard where I'm here for 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.920 a few weeks with my family on the holiday. 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.640 Very fantastic. That's a lovely part of the world from 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:43.479 what we hear. And the reason you're joining us today 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:46.679 is because you are the director of The Raffa Dooco, 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:49.600 which came out on Netflix just under six weeks ago. 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:52.480 I think now we've both watched it, but we really 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:55.040 wanted to pick your brain about that, and first of all, 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:57.800 we wondered, like, what's the reception being or the feedback 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:00.120 being for you. Since it's been out in the world. 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:04.560 It's been good. I think, you know, it's hard to 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:12.400 know exactly, you know, Netflix doesn't share you know, a 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:16.640 lot of the numbers, but in general, they seem very happy. 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:22.760 I'm super proud of it. The response from you know, 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:29.720 the documentary community and peers has been very positive, and critics, 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:34.160 you know, seem to highlight the things that I was 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:41.519 you know, most focused on and proudest of. So those 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:47.120 are all, yeah, positive indicators. So yeah, I think everyone 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:48.240 feels really good about it. 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:50.480 That's fantastic that. I'm sure that must be a bit 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:52.440 of a nerve wracking experience, but it sounds like it's 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:55.440 been mostly positive in that in the weeks since it's 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.600 been on Netflix. We would love to know how the 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:01.840 documentary was seed like who approached to who had the 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:03.919 idea for it, how did it all kind of come together. 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:15.000 Yeah, So David Ellison, who runs sky Dance, he and 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:18.800 his dad owned the Indian Wells Tournament and Rafa would 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:24.120 go there every year and there became friendly and I 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:28.240 know David had asked Rafa many times in the past 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:30.799 and Raffa had always said no, you know, he's a 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:35.440 very private person. You know, he's never done a documentary, 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:39.160 his family's never been on camera. He's not really interested 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:46.400 in that you know kind of presentation of his life 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:51.000 and and sort of media spectacle that it entails. But 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:55.600 since it was his last it was going to be 0:03:55.640 --> 0:04:00.640 probably his last season and David, he started trusted his 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.920 team and David in uh, deciding that it was going 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:08.720 to be you know, now or never, and kind of 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:11.560 went into it, you know, knowing that it probably would 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:15.680 be uncomfortable for him, seeing as he is quite private 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:19.840 and uncomfortable for you know, his close ones. But went 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:26.080 into it knowing, you know, knowing that and and really 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:29.159 you know, opened up in a way that that was 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:30.040 pretty surprising. 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:36.599 Definitely, Yeah, Zach, congratulations, It's it's just such a fabulous watch. 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:40.039 I honestly couldn't stop watching pot me up late at night. 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:45.000 But the narrative, you know, obviously focused on his last 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:47.640 year on tour, but I guess also what it takes 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:50.680 to become such a great of the tennis world. Was 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.400 that the angle that you had in mind when you set. 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:57.440 Out, We have an angle in mind. You know, I 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.240 didn't know that much about Rafa. You know, I I 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:05.440 think like a lot of American even tennis fans, you know, 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:09.320 he's always been sort of an enigma. You know, he 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:14.479 has not been this sort of household name. You know, 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:18.440 he doesn't you know, speak English that well. He's never 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:22.200 really been someone who's wanted to be a global celebrity. 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:26.560 So I think as a result, and in the US, 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:30.880 you know, tennis is you know, it's a it's a 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.159 big sport, but you know, it's not among you know, 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:39.000 it's not like football or basketball, baseball. So I think 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:43.359 his popularity in the United States was you know, not 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:48.719 as big as you might think. And for me, you know, 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:51.200 I didn't really know much about him. I didn't know 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.440 you know, everyone says though he's you know, he gives 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:56.840 one hundred percent, he goes after every ball. You've heard 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:01.080 about the sort of warrior mentality, and his uncle Tony 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:07.360 and this kind of you know, disciplinarian, very intense. He's 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:12.839 always just seems very intense and serious about everything and 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:16.720 and guarded. So there wasn't necessilly an angle in mind. 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:20.680 I think my my first thought was, you know, well, 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:24.719 what what is there? What more is there? And I 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:29.200 quickly found that you get a lot more from watching 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.839 Rafa in his day to day and with his family 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:37.359 and team than you would in any interview. You know 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:42.400 that he might give because he shows you know himself 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.520 through his actions, I think, and his actions are usually 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:49.159 louder than words. It's it's sort of how you know, 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:52.880 how he respects the game, how he plays, how he 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:59.279 treats others. You know, his it's kind of way of 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:04.440 being I think is very unique for a celebrity athlete 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:09.400 of his caliber. And I sort of knew that if 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:14.160 I could, you know, be around him in moments of 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:19.040 you know, an intense emotional turmoil, which would be inevitable 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:21.920 because of this being his last season and him having 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:25.760 to decide when to retire, you know that that could 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:29.040 be a way, in a way inside, a way to 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:34.840 see you know, a deeper, truer version of himself. So 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:37.440 as far as the story, we really didn't know. You know, 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:40.200 we thought it would be his last season. We were 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.560 expecting it to be some you know, or we hoped 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:47.880 it would be some heroic you know, walk off home run. Well, 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:51.080 I guess that's not a good analogy in Australia, you know, 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:56.400 that sort of heroic where he you know wins ex 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:04.200 Tournament wins is fifteenth Rolngeros and and retires. But soon 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:09.160 after we started shooting, he was injured in Australia and 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.000 dropped out of the Australian Open. And from there we 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:14.360 really didn't know what the story was going to be 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:17.600 or if, you know, if he was going to continue 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:22.320 with the documentary or with the season. There were a 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:27.640 lot of unknowns at that point. But then you know, 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:31.400 things shifted and the story actually became much more about 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:36.599 why can't he stop playing? Not so much when is 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:41.199 he going to play intel or when will he you know, decide, 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:46.840 But he kept, you know, continuing on and soldiering on, 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.679 even though it seemed like even amongst his team there 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.000 was a lot of doubts whether his body, you know, 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:58.080 could sustain another season. And that became the question why 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:01.839 what is it about him that makes him incapable of 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:06.080 stopping at the end of a career, because that is 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:10.520 actually all of the same, you know, reasons why you know, 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:14.640 he was the great player that he was. So that 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.440 became the way that we sort of blended the present 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.880 and the past through that question up, well, what makes 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:24.439 him keep going? You know, why can't he stop. 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.360 Yeah, it was. It was so compelling. That's kind of 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:30.640 that that narrative of why didn't he stop? 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.400 Yeah? I found Yeah, and also that I think you 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.840 also said about going back into his past. We was. 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:40.920 I think one of the big takeaways from this documentary 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.400 is how much file footage you had access to and 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:45.320 vision of him of when he was a little kidd 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.800 with his family. Did you guys know in the team 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:50.400 that you would have access to this incredible archive or 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:52.880 did that kind of go oh, we do have this, 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:54.959 So that actually gives us another storytelling in. 0:09:55.600 --> 0:10:01.760 Yeah, I credit the archival producer Knnie Honeycut. It's you know, 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:08.800 really diving into the Spanish television broadcast archive. Rafa himself 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:12.280 didn't really have any archive, you know, his family there 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:17.200 there were a few home videos that we found, but 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.720 they were not meticulous about, you know, documenting his career 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:23.160 by any means. I think the fact that he was 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:28.320 gifted at a young age and played in tournaments you know, 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:32.439 and was in the sort of the Spanish Championships, et cetera. 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:35.880 You know, from age eight on, there was more footage 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:41.200 of him young than you know other players. Rafa you know, 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:45.120 is kind of known for how quickly he became, you 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.559 know how he was on the tour at age sixteen 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:51.880 and playing guys much much older. So a lot of 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:55.959 footage existed, but you know, it's it takes a lot 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:58.120 of time to go throw that footage and sort of 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:02.200 find the moments that feel you know, one of the 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.680 moments I love most from the archive is he's asked 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:09.520 at I think he's like eight years old, he's just 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.640 won this championship, and he's asked, you know, how do 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.600 you feel you've just won, you know, this championship and 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.640 a young Raphis says, well, you know, just because you 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:21.800 won this championship doesn't mean you're going to be good. 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:24.880 You still have to you know, keep training, and and 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:28.800 for an eight year old to say that, you know, 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:30.840 you knew that there was something in his mind that 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:35.200 was saying the voice of his uncle, which we sort 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:39.200 of later discovered. But but something about that response, you know, 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:42.760 almost felt like premeditated or or you know, that it 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:47.719 was coming from somewhere else, and that kind of mentality, 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:50.640 you know, he had to sort of never you know, 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:55.240 sort of you know, revel in your accomplishments and but 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:58.840 always be looking for what's next, how do I how 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:04.400 do I get better? You know, never being overconfident, you know, 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:08.679 really is part and partial with with his style of 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:12.760 play and and and you know his spirit. His career 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:13.520 of course. 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.600 You know, it spanned over twenty years, more records than 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:19.719 we can probably even count or remember. How how did 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:21.240 you decide what to leave out? 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:28.200 Yeah, that's a good question there. It's funny because Rapa 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:32.199 wanted a fifth episode after seeing the four episodes. He 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.400 was like, well, you know, there are all these other 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.520 matches that you know are important to my career. And 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.120 you know, yeah, he played over twenty years. There's there's 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:48.720 countless great matches, you know. I My feeling was that 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:52.920 there almost was too much tennis in the in the project, 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:55.400 you know, and we really wanted this to be a 0:12:56.200 --> 0:13:01.400 global audience and and not necessarily only tennis fans, you know, 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:04.560 so it became much more about the person. And you know, 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:08.800 there are the iconic matches, you know, his first, his 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:13.599 first Grand Slam, the Wimbledon's against Roger feder the Australian 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:17.640 Open against Djokovic, but then later in his career there 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.800 are certain you know, like the twenty twenty two Australian 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:25.960 Open match was you know, one of the greatest comebacks 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:31.160 of his career and a hugely important match to sort 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:34.600 of understand at age, you know, I think he was 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.840 maybe thirty five, thirty six, you know that he still 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:44.280 had at playing against Medevedev, who was much younger, when 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:47.840 the question of his longevity had always been top of mind. 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:52.120 With Rafa, you know, I think with Novak we maybe 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.920 expected his career to be a bit longer. I think everyone, 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:59.000 Rafa included, thought that his career would end, you know, 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:02.240 much earlier, as is true of most you know, tennis 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:08.319 players you know, usually retire in their early thirties. Anyway, 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:13.320 there were matches that, you know, for whatever reason, mostly 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:19.240 because of the structure that we chose, of the episodes 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:24.080 you know, just didn't didn't make the cut. But you know, 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:29.200 for me, I prefer living in fewer matches longer and 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:34.520 understanding what's at stake, what's really going on in this match, 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.200 How do we use the match to analyze the you know, 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.200 the sort of mental strategy of what's the difference between Novak, 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:45.120 who's super confident in Rafa who almost uses this this 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:49.080 kind of humility or lack of confidence as a motivation, 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.360 you know, and then with better or how do we 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:57.320 see his game on grass and see how we can 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:02.760 analyze Rafa's differences and gain a better understanding of him 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.560 more so that you know, when you won twenty two 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.360 Grand Slams, there's gonna be a lot of you know, 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:13.520 trophy raises. But it's just I'm less interested, you know, 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.640 I think another filmmaker probably would have made something different. 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:23.640 You know, I read it's funny when you talked about 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.560 how it's kind of nerve nerve or I'm not sure 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:28.760 how you used it, but when you release it. 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:33.760 Yeah, you'll ye. How you respond to the reception. 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:39.320 Yeah, exactly. And I tend to sort of focus on 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:44.280 any negative reaction more than a positive one. And the 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.640 positive ones are nice. But then I like to see 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:52.920 what people are saying, maybe maybe criticisms. And I found 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.200 if there was one, it was that, you know, that 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:02.920 there was so much about his struggles with his body, 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:09.120 you know, and at times was hard to watch because 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:12.200 of it, and for someone who did win so much, 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:17.880 you know, expecting more of a sort of celebratory feel, 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:22.840 and you know, I think again, you know, I think 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:27.520 it's just my interests were more in that struggle, more 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:31.360 in the messiness, more in what makes you know this 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:37.480 guy human? You know, I think you know, we all 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.400 know he was a great tennis player. We all you know, 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:46.240 we could endlessly talk about probably like or breakdown matches 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:53.160 more strategically and show highlights. But for me, the idea 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:58.520 that at such a young age he had this foot 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:05.439 disease was sort of the key you know, reveal of 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:09.040 information for the whole series and for me, as someone 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:11.480 who didn't really know that that existed, that the fact 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:20.480 that he played on you know, a malformed, deteriorating left 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:24.359 foot for his entire career was the thing for me 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:29.159 that was most revelatory and sort of set the course 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:31.480 of his career as this one that could end at 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:37.399 any moment. And that's a mentality I think that you know, 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.359 he played with in every match, and so you can't 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:50.040 separate you know, sort of Rafa's body from Rafa's tennis. Yeah, 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.760 and that's sort of a long, a long answer to 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:57.240 your question about matches, but it's more the answer is 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:01.119 more what I'm interested in, you know, as a filmmaker. 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:06.400 Yeah, definitely showed that more human side, you know, Yeah, 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.320 had watched Raffa for so many years and didn't even 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.439 know that. I guess the seriousness of that, that injury. 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:14.800 And I was the same. 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.879 You were alongside Raffa in some of his most difficult moments, 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:22.840 as you mentioned earlier, the injury in Melbourne when he 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:25.160 learned that he couldn't fly the a historian open what. 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:25.720 What was that like? 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:32.359 Yeah, I mean that injury specifically. I mean it happened 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:37.280 in Brisbane, but then he sort of went to Melbourne 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:41.280 and went to the doctor there and the doctor delivered 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:44.919 the news that it was a tear, and a severe 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:46.919 enough tear, you know where he wasn't going to be 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:51.280 able to play. And you know, that was like six 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:54.720 or seven days into shooting. So at this point, you know, 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:58.080 I had not developed much of a relationship. Of course, 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.520 you know, we knew each other, but he he was 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.040 from day one. He was in practice mode. You know, 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:06.560 he was very much you know, this was his comeback 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:10.080 in the season, and I was there and following him. 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.239 So in that moment in the car, I was, I 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:16.320 was filming. I was, you know, because I do some 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:19.280 of the filming myself. When it you know, when the 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:24.359 space is small and requires kind of a small footprint, 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:31.080 and you know, I just remember feeling, you know, in 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:38.199 those moments you form a connection, you know, because you 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:44.320 witness someone going through something, and when that person sort 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.159 of understands that you witness that you and you've seen 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:51.920 another layer of them, there's kind of you know, a 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:56.879 bond that's formed, you know, not necessarily because of anything 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:00.200 that you did, other than you know sort of of 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:04.520 you know, be there and capture it in in a 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:12.199 in a way that is as inobtrusive and as you know, 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:16.560 sort of sensitive as you can be. You know, I 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.760 always felt like I never wanted to ask anything of Rafa, 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:23.960 and so we we didn't do interviews while he you know, 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:26.879 was during the season. We waited until after the season. 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:29.320 During the season we were merely there to sort of 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:33.000 shadow him and watch, you know. We we didn't want 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:36.760 to stop his routine. We didn't want to interrupt in 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:40.640 any way, which was difficult because if you missed something, 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:43.520 you know, there was no like redo, there there was 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:46.520 no like let's get that from another, you know. It 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:50.040 was it was like on the fly, you know, go go, 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:57.560 go go, And you know, Rafa I think understood that 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:03.199 if you know, if this was going to be a 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:07.760 real version of him that those moments, you know, needed 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:11.800 to be seen and you needed to understand what it 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:18.040 is like to get that news and uh, you know 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:24.560 understand kind of the heartbreak and the sacrifice because it 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.920 it makes the you know, the winds that much more impressive. 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:32.040 It makes the and it helps you understand. Yeah, like 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:34.639 you know, what does it take and what is it like? 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:37.880 And and why is it hard? And and all these 0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:41.000 things that we talk about and sports there is all 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:44.480 this sort of like motivational you know, go one hundred 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.240 percent or you have to you know, go that, but 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:49.200 but what does that actually mean? You know, what is 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:51.960 one hundred percent for one person versus another? Or like 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:57.000 you know what. So it's those kinds of of of 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:01.359 you know, messier parts that I think a lot of 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:05.440 athletes don't want you to see because they do chip 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:09.159 away at the armor of the kind of you know 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:14.280 the warrior who you know sort of you know, slays 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:21.040 the dragon. I think when you see Rafa kind of 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:24.840 tearing up, you know there's a vulnera but there's a 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:29.280 there's a sensitivity there that exists. You know that that's 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:32.920 for some athletes, you know, they don't necessarily want to 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:36.199 reveal that side of themselves. But that's honestly what I 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:39.199 like love most about Rafa is that he just feels, 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:45.080 you know, more human to me than and I've done 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:50.040 profiles and other athletes and and you know, and in 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:54.879 celebrities in general, and I feel like Rafa because of 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:57.080 where he's from, because of his family, because of the 0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:03.760 kind of like ethos, you know, and upbringing that he had, 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:07.439 he's just very himself. He's very real, and he's and 0:23:07.480 --> 0:23:13.000 he's very down to earth, and he experiences emotions, you know, 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:16.040 in a similar way. I think that to a lot 0:23:16.080 --> 0:23:20.240 of us, and and the fact that he was willing 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:24.480 to show that was was very brave in and of itself. Yeah. 0:23:24.880 --> 0:23:28.800 Absolutely, we would also love to know. Yeah, because you 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:31.520 kind of refer to previous projects you've done, there's been 0:23:31.680 --> 0:23:34.840 some sporting projects you've worked on. I think there was 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:37.720 the HBO series twenty four to seven earlier in your career, 0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:41.280 which had a sporting focus following teams and athletes getting 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:44.440 prepared for sporting events. But a lot of your other 0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:47.199 work has been not in the sporting space, and certainly 0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:51.400 not in tennis. Has it kind of shifted your attitude 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:53.080 to like, are you more of a tennis fan now? 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:55.480 Are these? Are there kind of other tennis projects you'd 0:23:55.480 --> 0:23:58.160 like to explore or was this kind of a one 0:23:58.160 --> 0:23:58.480 off for you? 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:03.720 Don't know. I I did work in sports early in 0:24:03.760 --> 0:24:09.040 my career, in sports documentaries, not necessarily because I was 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:11.879 a fan of sports, just because it was the place 0:24:11.920 --> 0:24:15.000 that I found a job and in entrance into the 0:24:15.040 --> 0:24:22.600 documentary world. You know, I I do like tennis. My 0:24:22.720 --> 0:24:24.760 dad was a good tennis player, so I grew up 0:24:24.800 --> 0:24:29.400 playing tennis as a kid. You know. Obviously that helped 0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:32.000 me in some ways just to sort of like understand, 0:24:32.160 --> 0:24:35.560 you know, the game, and and came in with a 0:24:35.720 --> 0:24:39.560 curiosity and excitement about the project. But you know, and 0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:43.320 I think it is a it's a beautiful game to watch. 0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:46.600 I think it's a great game to profile somebody because 0:24:46.640 --> 0:24:49.119 it's an individual sport and and you know, you know, 0:24:49.160 --> 0:24:51.520 all of these other sports, you know, whether we profile 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:55.320 a soccer player or a basketball player, you know so much, 0:24:55.359 --> 0:24:58.879 so much of their accomplishments are always depending on you know, 0:24:58.920 --> 0:25:02.359 their teammates, Like how how how great would have Michael 0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:06.080 Jordan been without Scottie Pippen? You know, we will never 0:25:06.240 --> 0:25:10.280 know you. You certainly know how good Rafa uh you 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:15.439 know was And the fact that it's you know, you 0:25:15.720 --> 0:25:20.040 out there against somebody else in this arena, all eyes 0:25:20.080 --> 0:25:24.400 on you. Everything is exposed, every weakness that you potentially 0:25:24.400 --> 0:25:26.800 have is exposed. You know, it makes for a very 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:31.600 dramatic kind of uh you know battle, you know, almost 0:25:31.680 --> 0:25:37.199 like boxing a spectacle. And I think that that is, 0:25:38.200 --> 0:25:41.360 you know, from a filmmaker's perspective. You know, it allows 0:25:41.400 --> 0:25:45.080 you to kind of be you know, bigger with with 0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:48.200 the way that you present it. I mean the Federal 0:25:48.280 --> 0:25:50.800 match specifically, you know, like the music is really big. 0:25:50.880 --> 0:25:54.840 There's just that there's this epicness to the way that 0:25:54.880 --> 0:25:57.760 it's presented. And you know, I can't think of a 0:25:57.800 --> 0:26:00.440 lot of other sporting events like that where had the 0:26:01.040 --> 0:26:03.720 lead up, you have the rivalry, the one versus one. 0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:06.600 The personalities are so different, you know, I don't know 0:26:06.800 --> 0:26:10.160 of ones in history that really matched that kind of 0:26:10.720 --> 0:26:14.119