1
00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,840
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

2
00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:10,760
Speaker 1: poor parent who just want's answers.

3
00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:11,040
Speaker 2: Now.

4
00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:13,680
Speaker 1: Hello, I'm doctor Justin Colson here with my wife and

5
00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,800
Speaker 1: co host, missus Happy Families, Kietie. Thank you for being here.

6
00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:18,160
Speaker 3: Thank you anyway.

7
00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,040
Speaker 1: We're the parents of six kids. I've written six books

8
00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,239
Speaker 1: about raising happy families, and today on the podcast, something

9
00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:23,799
Speaker 1: pretty big.

10
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,800
Speaker 3: I'm pretty excited about our interview today. We're going to

11
00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,160
Speaker 3: talk to someone who's been on Oprah. Do you know

12
00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:31,360
Speaker 3: how big a deal that is?

13
00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:33,400
Speaker 1: I haven't been on Oprah, so I don't know what's

14
00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,479
Speaker 1: a big deal. I'd love to be on OPRAH. That

15
00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:36,680
Speaker 1: would be I would.

16
00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,080
Speaker 3: Love you to be on Oprah too. That means I

17
00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,560
Speaker 3: might actually get to meet her. Time magazine has described

18
00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,960
Speaker 3: him as being perhaps the country's most outspoken critic on

19
00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:50,199
Speaker 3: education's fixation with grades and test scores, and Justin, he

20
00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,800
Speaker 3: probably is one of the biggest influences on you of

21
00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:55,200
Speaker 3: any author. I know.

22
00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:57,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. If I was to put a list

23
00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,280
Speaker 1: together of people that I would love to interview for

24
00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,800
Speaker 1: this podcast, this guy would be very told the list,

25
00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:02,480
Speaker 1: and we've got him.

26
00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:04,760
Speaker 3: So I'm pretty exciting.

27
00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,440
Speaker 1: I'm ecstatic Alfie Kohane is the name of the person

28
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:09,920
Speaker 1: we're speaking to in just a sec He's a very

29
00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,600
Speaker 1: very well known author and writer around parenting and education

30
00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,160
Speaker 1: in those kinds of areas. In nineteen ninety three, Alfie

31
00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,840
Speaker 1: wrote a book that was called Punished by Rewards, and

32
00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,920
Speaker 1: that was pretty much the central reason that I left

33
00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,840
Speaker 1: my radio career and went back to school to study psychology.

34
00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,839
Speaker 1: Alfie is the reason that I am, in many ways,

35
00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,800
Speaker 1: who I am today. His influence has been far reaching,

36
00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:36,840
Speaker 1: and he's affected not just me, but our family and

37
00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,480
Speaker 1: obviously thousands and thousands and tens of thousands, if not

38
00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,960
Speaker 1: millions of parents around the globe. So so excited to

39
00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:43,560
Speaker 1: be able to talk to Alfie today.

40
00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,000
Speaker 3: You know, I actually remember when you brought that book

41
00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,240
Speaker 3: home and you wanted me to read it. It's not

42
00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,440
Speaker 3: a book for the fainthearted. It was a really, really

43
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,880
Speaker 3: intense book. But I remember how excited you were about

44
00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,880
Speaker 3: all of the concepts you were learning, and specifically actually

45
00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,320
Speaker 3: having an opportunity to talk to Alfie on the phone

46
00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,400
Speaker 3: for the first time. I remember that.

47
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:05,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, not only did I talk to him, but then

48
00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:06,680
Speaker 1: a few years later he was in Australia, and I

49
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:08,160
Speaker 1: got to hang out with him. In fact, I drove

50
00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:09,880
Speaker 1: him from the central coast of New South Wales down

51
00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,120
Speaker 1: to Sydney because he needed transport, and I was the

52
00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,000
Speaker 1: one that contacted the organizers and said, what do you need?

53
00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:16,440
Speaker 1: How can I help? And they said, oh, we really

54
00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,600
Speaker 1: need someone to take him for a drive. I said

55
00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,920
Speaker 1: I can do that. So that was pretty epic. And Alfie,

56
00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:22,920
Speaker 1: we've got you here right now, Alfie, can.

57
00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,280
Speaker 3: I start Hubert? I'd love to ask you a question

58
00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:30,640
Speaker 3: when we think about punishment and discipline together, why is

59
00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,440
Speaker 3: punishment such a lousy way to discipline our kids?

60
00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:39,680
Speaker 2: Because punishment teaches power, It undermines the possibility of moral

61
00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,240
Speaker 2: growth in children. If I say to kids, do this,

62
00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,760
Speaker 2: or here's how I'm going to make you suffer, which

63
00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,079
Speaker 2: is what punishment is, and by the way, you can

64
00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,760
Speaker 2: call it consequences, it's still the same thing. It says

65
00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:53,720
Speaker 2: to kids, do this or here's what I'm going to

66
00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:58,080
Speaker 2: do to you. Then kids are first of all thinking

67
00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:03,160
Speaker 2: only about themselves how do I avoid the punishment, never

68
00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,880
Speaker 2: about the impact of their actions on others. All use

69
00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:16,160
Speaker 2: of consequences punishment focuses kids narrowly on self interest, and secondly,

70
00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,320
Speaker 2: what they have modeled for them is that someone who

71
00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,040
Speaker 2: has more power than they do can coerce them into

72
00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,760
Speaker 2: doing whatever or she wants. And that's the main lesson

73
00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:31,399
Speaker 2: that kids learn. Sometimes they take it out on others

74
00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,280
Speaker 2: that very same day when they come across peers who

75
00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,640
Speaker 2: have less power than they do. So punishment is a

76
00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,200
Speaker 2: way of doing things to children, and the only way

77
00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,240
Speaker 2: we help kids become good people is by working with them.

78
00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,480
Speaker 2: To put it slightly differently, the only thing you can

79
00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:53,720
Speaker 2: ever get from any kind of punishment, from forceable isolation

80
00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:59,280
Speaker 2: which is euphemistically called time out, to withdrawal of privileges

81
00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,720
Speaker 2: or yelling, spanking, whatever it is, the only thing you

82
00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:08,000
Speaker 2: can ever get is temporary compliance at an enormous cost.

83
00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that reminds me of a story that I love

84
00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:12,320
Speaker 1: to tell. When I was about fifteen years old, I

85
00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,680
Speaker 1: was in the kitchen. My little sister was driving me

86
00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,600
Speaker 1: up the wall, and I said a word that we're

87
00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,120
Speaker 1: not supposed to use in my family. You know, we

88
00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,360
Speaker 1: had some very strict rules around the kind of language

89
00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,440
Speaker 1: we use. And I called my sister a stupid idiot.

90
00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,720
Speaker 1: I said something like, oh, shut up, your stupid idiot,

91
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,080
Speaker 1: My mom heard and came dashing into the kitchen and said, justin,

92
00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,040
Speaker 1: we don't speak like that in this house. You need

93
00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,600
Speaker 1: to say sorry to your sister right now. And so

94
00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,560
Speaker 1: here's a false apology. So I'm obviously being dishonest when

95
00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,920
Speaker 1: I apologize. But I looked at my sister and I said,

96
00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,800
Speaker 1: to a fine Carena, I'm sorry, you're a stupid idiot,

97
00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,159
Speaker 1: which obviously made a lot of sense to my fifteen

98
00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,800
Speaker 1: year old brain, but it infuriated my mum, who, with

99
00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:53,800
Speaker 1: the best of intentions, said, you go to your room

100
00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:55,799
Speaker 1: right now and you think about what you just said.

101
00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:57,720
Speaker 1: And you know, Alfie, I went, I had.

102
00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,880
Speaker 2: A child in history, ever often in a constructive way,

103
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,720
Speaker 2: after being forcibly isolated. What you're thinking about in that

104
00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,200
Speaker 2: room is how unfair it is that you're there, how

105
00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,240
Speaker 2: you're misunderstood, and how you're going to get back at

106
00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,760
Speaker 2: your sister when your mother isn't looking. Never can you

107
00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,680
Speaker 2: get a response by simply making kids unhappy, by taking

108
00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,800
Speaker 2: things away from them or putting them in their rooms

109
00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,080
Speaker 2: or or whatever, and forced apologies, Well, that teaches kids

110
00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,000
Speaker 2: to lie. Yeah, what all say things that they don't believe?

111
00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:31,240
Speaker 1: What I was going to say is that I went

112
00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:32,520
Speaker 1: to my room. I sat on my bed, and I

113
00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,359
Speaker 1: thought carefully about how I was an impediment to my

114
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,360
Speaker 1: family's happiness, and I resolved to be a bit of human.

115
00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,320
Speaker 1: But I didn't really I did exactly what you said.

116
00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,520
Speaker 1: I was furious about my mom and how she didn't

117
00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,560
Speaker 1: understand me. It really ruptured my relationship in that moment, right,

118
00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,200
Speaker 1: and boy boy, I couldn't wait to get back at

119
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:50,520
Speaker 1: my sister when mom wasn't watching.

120
00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,520
Speaker 2: Right, And the alternative to anticipate maybe where you're going

121
00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,000
Speaker 2: next and said, no, we have very limited time that

122
00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,800
Speaker 2: is offered to many parents. Instead of using sticks, use tarrots.

123
00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,200
Speaker 2: Instead of controlling them by making them suffer if they

124
00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,080
Speaker 2: don't do what you want, give them a doggy biscuit

125
00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,440
Speaker 2: if they do do what you want. But rewards are

126
00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,760
Speaker 2: just the flip side of punishment. So if I threaten

127
00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,680
Speaker 2: to punish a kid, I'm saying, do this, here's what

128
00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,520
Speaker 2: I'm going to do to you. If I reward children

129
00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,280
Speaker 2: or offer to reward them, I'm saying, do this and

130
00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,240
Speaker 2: you'll get that. So in the first case with punishment,

131
00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,840
Speaker 2: kids come to ask the question, what do they want

132
00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,240
Speaker 2: me to do? And what happens to me if I

133
00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,760
Speaker 2: don't do it? If you offer a reward for good behavior,

134
00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:44,720
Speaker 2: which typically means mindlessly obedient, not generous or thoughtful, but

135
00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,880
Speaker 2: then the question kids come to ask is what do

136
00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,440
Speaker 2: they want me to do and what do I get

137
00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,680
Speaker 2: for doing it? And so the research is very clear

138
00:06:55,400 --> 00:07:00,400
Speaker 2: that rewards like punishments, can only get temporary compliance, and

139
00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:06,400
Speaker 2: in both cases they retard moral and social and intellectual development.

140
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:11,720
Speaker 2: Because we have hundreds of studies showing that the more

141
00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,840
Speaker 2: you reward people for doing something, the more they tend

142
00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,360
Speaker 2: to lose interest in whatever they had to do to

143
00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,600
Speaker 2: get the reward. So, on the one hand, if you

144
00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,880
Speaker 2: want to destroy children's interest in reading, for example, you

145
00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,160
Speaker 2: would offer a prize for reading a book because now

146
00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,720
Speaker 2: you've taught them that reading is something you would never

147
00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,720
Speaker 2: want to do, and it becomes devalued. They say, well,

148
00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,080
Speaker 2: you know, if this was so much fun, they wouldn't

149
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,000
Speaker 2: have to bribe me to do it. But the other

150
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,200
Speaker 2: reason that it devalues that that kids lose interest in

151
00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,840
Speaker 2: whatever they're rewarded for doing is because it's control. If

152
00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,160
Speaker 2: I punish a kid for doing something, it's obvious I'm controllingum.

153
00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,320
Speaker 2: But what a lot of parents don't realize is if

154
00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:01,320
Speaker 2: they reward kids, and that includes verbal rewards good job,

155
00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,560
Speaker 2: I really like theau dot dot dot. This is just

156
00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:09,080
Speaker 2: a verbal doggie biscuit and all rewards are just sugar

157
00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,880
Speaker 2: coated control, and kids don't like being controlled. So we

158
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,960
Speaker 2: have research that shows that almost anything that kids are

159
00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,760
Speaker 2: rewarded for doing becomes less appealing to them. They have

160
00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:26,200
Speaker 2: less commitment to it over the long haul of Several

161
00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,480
Speaker 2: studies have shown a couple of just in the last

162
00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:33,719
Speaker 2: few years that children who are frequently rewarded or praised

163
00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:38,720
Speaker 2: by their parents are less generous and helpful than other kids,

164
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,880
Speaker 2: and the effect is most pronounced if they're rewarded or

165
00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:48,160
Speaker 2: praised for being helpful. So you are undermining with the

166
00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:53,840
Speaker 2: use of any kind of reward, including praise or punishment,

167
00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:59,080
Speaker 2: including time out. The only alternatives to this are not

168
00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,959
Speaker 2: quite so east need to script or to have a

169
00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,560
Speaker 2: one size fits all when you do this, when your

170
00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,320
Speaker 2: kid does this, you should do that. So it's frustrating

171
00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,600
Speaker 2: because you actually have to think, as opposed to being

172
00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,880
Speaker 2: scripted out by a parenting expert. But rewards and punishments

173
00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,120
Speaker 2: always as they say, of doing things to children forms

174
00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,040
Speaker 2: of control. What helps us to become the best parents

175
00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,720
Speaker 2: we can is to figure out ways of working with

176
00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,240
Speaker 2: them to solve problems.

177
00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,360
Speaker 3: I mean, what about those parents who would say, but

178
00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,000
Speaker 3: I just can't get my kids to do anything without

179
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,680
Speaker 3: a reward. You know, those parents who are using reward

180
00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:45,320
Speaker 3: charts or other ways of coercing the children to do

181
00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,400
Speaker 3: the household chores. Some parents would actually say that the

182
00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,880
Speaker 3: kids are more motivated by using them.

183
00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,240
Speaker 2: Right, And the question is not how do we motivate kids?

184
00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,560
Speaker 2: The question is how are kids motivated. For the last

185
00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,520
Speaker 2: few decades, psychologists have helped us understand that there are

186
00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,120
Speaker 2: different kinds of motivation, and the kind matters more than

187
00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:13,679
Speaker 2: the amount. Specifically, psychologists talk about the difference between intrinsic motivation,

188
00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,320
Speaker 2: which means you do something because you want to do it,

189
00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,599
Speaker 2: because you get a kick out of it, it's satisfying,

190
00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,360
Speaker 2: and extrinsic motivation, which is where you do it to

191
00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,319
Speaker 2: avoid a punishment or to get a reward. And what

192
00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,320
Speaker 2: we know from research as well as experience, is that

193
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,360
Speaker 2: the two tend to be inversely related. So the child

194
00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,600
Speaker 2: who seems quote motivated to do it in order to

195
00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,520
Speaker 2: get the gold star, the ice cream call, and the

196
00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:43,320
Speaker 2: good job whatever has more extrinsic motivation, and as a

197
00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:47,880
Speaker 2: direct result, is now less committed to being a helpful person,

198
00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,679
Speaker 2: less interested in whether his actions around the house are

199
00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,560
Speaker 2: making other people feel good. So I guess when I

200
00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,240
Speaker 2: see the When parents say you know they work, I

201
00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,079
Speaker 2: always ask work to do? What? What's your goal? You

202
00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,400
Speaker 2: can get mindless obedience in the short run if the

203
00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,160
Speaker 2: reward is juicy enough or the punishment is awful enough.

204
00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,440
Speaker 2: What you can never get is a child who is happy,

205
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:20,880
Speaker 2: more ethical, more compassionate, or caring, more of an independent thinker,

206
00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,480
Speaker 2: all of the things we parents want in the long

207
00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,600
Speaker 2: run for our goal. Rewards like star charts and stickers

208
00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,040
Speaker 2: in the life actually get in the way of those

209
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,040
Speaker 2: more ambitious, meaningful, long term goals.

210
00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,880
Speaker 1: If I'm not going to use punishments and I'm not

211
00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,480
Speaker 1: going to use rewards, what does Alfie Kohne and the

212
00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,200
Speaker 1: research suggest would be the best way to respond to

213
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,400
Speaker 1: this child who is just driving me up the wall?

214
00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:53,600
Speaker 2: Talk less, ask more. There's no one size fits all solution.

215
00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,120
Speaker 2: As I indicated before, everything will depend on what's going

216
00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,520
Speaker 2: on in this child's environment and in this child's head.

217
00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,200
Speaker 2: Five different kids who are seen as difficult or troubling

218
00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,760
Speaker 2: or making us go crazy and pushing our buttons, maybe

219
00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,960
Speaker 2: doing it for five completely different reasons, and each of

220
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,600
Speaker 2: those reasons calls for a different course of action. I mean,

221
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,319
Speaker 2: this is the thing when I wrote my book Unconditional Parenting,

222
00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,960
Speaker 2: which is get specifically to looking at parenting punished by rewards,

223
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,560
Speaker 2: also looks at schools and workplaces as well as families.

224
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,520
Speaker 2: But I had to end the working with section the

225
00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,480
Speaker 2: what do we do instead? You know, break the bad

226
00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,439
Speaker 2: news that I'm not going to give you a magic formula.

227
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,720
Speaker 2: If a child is acting this way rolling the eyes,

228
00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:44,800
Speaker 2: because frankly we're saying stuff that deserves an eye rolling,

229
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,040
Speaker 2: then the problem is not the kid. The problem is

230
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,360
Speaker 2: with what we have been doing that we need to rethink,

231
00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,080
Speaker 2: and we need to come to the child and say

232
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,720
Speaker 2: I'm really frustrated sometimes by your attitude here, and I

233
00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,160
Speaker 2: want to hear where it's coming from. And then you

234
00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,000
Speaker 2: have to listen for the answer without getting defensive or huffy.

235
00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,959
Speaker 2: And then when there's a particular problem, like we want

236
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,280
Speaker 2: to get to the house clean, I don't know about

237
00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,760
Speaker 2: using a different technique to get the kids room clean.

238
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,080
Speaker 2: I mean, it's the kid's room, isn't it. Why would

239
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:14,960
Speaker 2: the kid have to keep it up to our standards?

240
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,120
Speaker 2: In other words, the premise of the question here ought

241
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,840
Speaker 2: to be called into question. Don't ask how do I

242
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,400
Speaker 2: get the kid to do X? If I can't use

243
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,720
Speaker 2: punishments and rewards, begin by asking whether X really needs

244
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,160
Speaker 2: to be done. But if we're convinced it does, like

245
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,200
Speaker 2: everybody should pitch in with stuff around dinner, then I

246
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,200
Speaker 2: would be asking the child, you know what's the problem here?

247
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,640
Speaker 2: What can be done? What do you think you can

248
00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:47,400
Speaker 2: do in order to help help things go smoothly whenever possible.

249
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:53,120
Speaker 2: Kids learn to make good decisions by making decisions, not

250
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:57,240
Speaker 2: by following directions, and so we end up getting kids

251
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,960
Speaker 2: who are happier to participate because they feel trusted and

252
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:07,480
Speaker 2: respected as a result of our asking about their experience

253
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,640
Speaker 2: and responding appropriately, rather than mindlessly and unilaterally trying to

254
00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,400
Speaker 2: impose our demands and agenda on them.

255
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,280
Speaker 1: It sounds like something that I share with parents is

256
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,520
Speaker 1: what I call the three ease of effective discipline. And

257
00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,080
Speaker 1: when I say discipline, I mean discipline is teaching and

258
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,600
Speaker 1: guiding and instructing. It's helping our children to internalize those

259
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,640
Speaker 1: things that matter most. So I talk about how we

260
00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,680
Speaker 1: need to explore their world, explore why they're struggling with

261
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,160
Speaker 1: this question that we've asked, which helps us to understand

262
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,000
Speaker 1: whether it was a good question or a good behavior

263
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,400
Speaker 1: or requested in the first place. And then we explain

264
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:43,440
Speaker 1: what our rationale is so that they can at least

265
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,200
Speaker 1: see what our perspective is, and then we empower them

266
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,040
Speaker 1: to work together with us to find a solution that's

267
00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,680
Speaker 1: mutually agreeable. It sounds to me like that's the kind

268
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:52,080
Speaker 1: of process that you're describing.

269
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,760
Speaker 2: Uh yes, but with not to throw away, but to

270
00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,280
Speaker 2: really linger on the problem on that one ask. In fact,

271
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,040
Speaker 2: that a lot of times when kids don't do what

272
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,920
Speaker 2: we've told them, the problem is with what we've told them,

273
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,000
Speaker 2: and so we have to begin by being willing to

274
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,160
Speaker 2: question the premise, whether it's what we're asking of them

275
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 2: is reasonable, whether it's developmentally appropriate, and so on, and

276
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,720
Speaker 2: then to keep checking back with them if let them

277
00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:25,080
Speaker 2: propose a solution, and then let's talk about it later

278
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:26,240
Speaker 2: to see how it's going.

279
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like effective exploration is the central pillar there. Alfie,

280
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,480
Speaker 1: this has just been such an awesome conversation. Thank you

281
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,440
Speaker 1: so much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure

282
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,280
Speaker 1: speaking about the problems of punishment and rewards being used

283
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,360
Speaker 1: as a way to get our kids to do what

284
00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:42,480
Speaker 1: we want them to do.

285
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,000
Speaker 3: I reckon we need to get Alfie backy In Justin,

286
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,920
Speaker 3: that was just such a worthwhile conversation. Jack.

287
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,120
Speaker 2: We could have you back, Elphie sure be happy to

288
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:50,520
Speaker 2: do it.

289
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:51,640
Speaker 3: Thanks so much.

290
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,480
Speaker 1: For listening to the podcast. If you'd like more info

291
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,320
Speaker 1: about how we can make your family happier, please jump

292
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,440
Speaker 1: on to our website, happy families dot com dot au.

293
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,040
Speaker 1: Find us on Instagram and on Facebook. Doctor Justin Coulson's

294
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:04,920
Speaker 1: Happy Families