Speaker 1: Welcome back to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris and
Speaker 1: on this podcast I'll be going behind the scenes with
Speaker 1: the biggest players in television. On today's episode, I have
Speaker 1: Brett Bowman, who is a story producer on TV shows
Speaker 1: made here in Australia and the US of a specializing
Speaker 1: in reality TV. He has worked across some of the
Speaker 1: biggest shows we've ever seen on Australian screens. His job
Speaker 1: is to collaborate with executive producers and editors and find
Speaker 1: the stories that are the most interesting that will end
Speaker 1: up on your TV. He has some of the best
Speaker 1: storytelling and scriptwriting skills in the business, which makes producers,
Speaker 1: TV networks and production studios line up to work with him.
Speaker 2: He knows more.
Speaker 1: About the reality stars on his shows than they probably
Speaker 1: know about themselves, which is pretty creepy but also very
Speaker 1: fascinating to unpack. So I'd like to welcome you to today's guest.
Speaker 1: It's Brett Bowman.
Speaker 2: So I'm a story producer in the sense that I'm
Speaker 2: a post producer.
Speaker 1: For the first time in the history of for Shark.
Speaker 2: And obviously you've got story notes and stuff and you
Speaker 2: pick out this is going to be the focus of
Speaker 2: the episode.
Speaker 1: Like I'm tolerating you in here.
Speaker 2: It's like a jigsaw puzzle and we put the pieces
Speaker 2: together the winner of Big Brother. These sorts of shows
Speaker 2: cast people who are kind of alphers.
Speaker 1: To find out who else is going into the jungle.
Speaker 2: It's always better to be honest about who you are
Speaker 2: than try to be something you're not.
Speaker 1: Hey, mate, how are you are you?
Speaker 2: Well? I'm good? How are you I'm I'm really well. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You've worked on I'm a celebrity, Love Island, The Block,
Speaker 1: Big Brother, The Voice. What is it that producers get
Speaker 1: when they hire you for a job.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I love television, I love working in TV,
Speaker 2: and I think probably a sense of humor. Like I
Speaker 2: know when we used to work on The Block, people
Speaker 2: would be like, oh, yours is the funny episode.
Speaker 1: So, as a story producer in reality TV, you're responsible
Speaker 1: for following and developing storylines throughout the day. Can you
Speaker 1: give me an example of how that works on a
Speaker 1: reality show?
Speaker 2: Yes, So I'm a story producer in the sense that
Speaker 2: I'm a post producer. So a normal story producer is
Speaker 2: like in the field, say you're on married at first site,
Speaker 2: You're there at the wedding, you're there at the honeymoon,
Speaker 2: you're there at the dinner party, whatever, Whereas I'm more
Speaker 2: you've filmed it all and now we make the story
Speaker 2: again in post. What's going to go to where? So
Speaker 2: it's different for different shows. Like when I've worked on
Speaker 2: the Block, you get given an episode which might be
Speaker 2: two or three days, and you watch all the footage
Speaker 2: and obviously you've got story notes and stuff, and you
Speaker 2: pick out this is going to be the focus of
Speaker 2: the episode. We'll follow these teams doing this doing that,
Speaker 2: Whereas something like Love Island, you're making the show as
Speaker 2: it's being made in the villa, so like literally you're
Speaker 2: responding to everything that happens, and we know that this
Speaker 2: happened this morning, and we'll probably have to follow and
Speaker 2: see where that goes. So we know, oh, by the
Speaker 2: last act of tonight's show, we know we're building towards this.
Speaker 2: If there's an event like a you know, new bombshells
Speaker 2: are coming in or something like that, so it's like
Speaker 2: jigsaw puzzle and we put the pieces together to make
Speaker 2: it all fit.
Speaker 1: Well, you're working on the cube at the moment, so
Speaker 1: that series hasn't obviously come to an end. You're still
Speaker 1: working on that post production of putting that whole show together.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So we filmed a couple of weeks ago in
Speaker 2: a big block and I was there for some of
Speaker 2: the filming, and then I could stream from the office
Speaker 2: because I'm a supervisor on the show, so we could
Speaker 2: get pickups on the run. You can just make more suggestions,
Speaker 2: like if he's doing a throw to break you go,
Speaker 2: can you do it this way? Or we might need
Speaker 2: to spread this game over to an ad break. I
Speaker 2: haven't seen a better position.
Speaker 3: Eight lives through three games, four games away from a
Speaker 3: quarter of a million dollars? Are they brave enough to
Speaker 3: step into the qube once again?
Speaker 2: To find out? Next week we'll see that. It's more
Speaker 2: that sort of thing in something like The Cube, because
Speaker 2: there's not a lot of story there. Obviously, the story
Speaker 2: is can they beat the Cube? Yeah? And then often
Speaker 2: you'll have little things for the characters, and so like
Speaker 2: threading that Nan and Grandson story beat throughout their journey
Speaker 2: to see if they can beat the Cube, or you know,
Speaker 2: it varies within each character.
Speaker 1: You know, what's interesting about The Cube was that, you know,
Speaker 1: we got that cliffhanger where their storyline is going to
Speaker 1: continue over to the next episode. Is there a choice
Speaker 1: in post production that you go, oh, this is a
Speaker 1: good hook. You know, we want them to come back
Speaker 1: for episode three, so we're going to choose their storyline
Speaker 1: to break those episodes apart.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you want to be able to drag people across
Speaker 2: to the next step and see so we have like
Speaker 2: all the couples all you know, they're all shot, and
Speaker 2: we figure out where they go. Like, these guys could
Speaker 2: be good to start the episode. These are someone who
Speaker 2: you want at the end. These we could They've done
Speaker 2: enough games that we can stretch them across a thing.
Speaker 2: And someone like Connie and Hayden. There's such interesting characters.
Speaker 2: It automatically makes a good promo. People are going to
Speaker 2: want to see if they can beat the cube and
Speaker 2: win a quarter of a mill. It's kind of a
Speaker 2: no brainer.
Speaker 1: How did you end up falling in love with unscripted reality?
Speaker 1: I mean, you and I both around about the same age,
Speaker 1: so we've grown up with scripted content on television. What
Speaker 1: was it that made you fall in love with unscripted reality?
Speaker 2: It was easier to get into Does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Not that I don't love it, but in Australia it
Speaker 2: feels like I did eight weeks as a storyliner on
Speaker 2: Neighbors and it was super tough because that show is
Speaker 2: a machine and I don't think it's enough credit that
Speaker 2: it deserves. So just the shit output of episodes, you know,
Speaker 2: it's a movie a week if you were to add
Speaker 2: it up, and then reality is just something that we
Speaker 2: just make more of it, so you end up kind
Speaker 2: of falling into that. But I also love it, Like
Speaker 2: I grew up watching the original Big Brother and so
Speaker 2: to work on Big Brother wen Channel nine brought it
Speaker 2: back was like a dream come true for me and
Speaker 2: still ranks as one of my favorite television experiences. And
Speaker 2: then that's kind of evolved into a show like Love Island.
Speaker 2: You get to often travel like I've been to Africa,
Speaker 2: I've been to span You just get something different every time,
Speaker 2: like I've done. And even when I moved to the States,
Speaker 2: there was I've worked on shows that we would never
Speaker 2: make here purely because we're a much smaller market than
Speaker 2: the US is.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's what's fascinating about And we're going to
Speaker 1: get into that in a little bit, because it is
Speaker 1: fascinating to see what those markets and how they are different.
Speaker 1: But you know, when it comes to reality television, do
Speaker 1: you enjoy the free falling of not knowing what people
Speaker 1: are going to do next?
Speaker 2: I do. I hate when people are like, oh, that's
Speaker 2: so scripted, and it's like, you don't know how much
Speaker 2: easier our jobs would be if it was scripted. And
Speaker 2: sometimes things are pear scripted because that is how people act,
Speaker 2: you know, like they do cheat on their part. Sometimes
Speaker 2: the hardest thing is when they don't act like you
Speaker 2: would expect someone to, and we go, how do we
Speaker 2: work this in? Because people will actually think this isn't real.
Speaker 2: Reality TV still have to follow a kind of basic
Speaker 2: storytelling formula, But those moments that happen I think are
Speaker 2: so much better because they're actually real. Like watching Love
Speaker 2: Island when Cassidy went from I called it the meg
Speaker 2: Reyinarch where she was like sleepless in Seattle, like America's sweetheart,
Speaker 2: to like turning into basically becoming not a villain per se,
Speaker 2: but like a product of her own behavior.
Speaker 1: She turned into basic instinct by the end.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've seen like people cry. I remember, look,
Speaker 2: it was horrific, but I remember in twenty twelve in
Speaker 2: Your Big Brother when Josh's brother died. That was like,
Speaker 2: it was hard for you guys in the house, but
Speaker 2: it was just as hard for the four hundred crew
Speaker 2: behind the scenes, because you're living with all of you
Speaker 2: every single day and it's like family, even though you
Speaker 2: guys have no idea who the hell we are.
Speaker 4: The Big Brother house is in shock after learning Josh's
Speaker 4: brother had died suddenly. Toby was just thirty two years old,
Speaker 4: and it is believed he suffered a fatal heart attack
Speaker 4: on Wednesday. Josh was taken to a private area where
Speaker 4: he was met by his parents, who broke the news.
Speaker 4: Josh then left the house that night to be with
Speaker 4: his family, and on Thursday announced his decision to leave permanently.
Speaker 4: He then returned to the house to collect his things
Speaker 4: and say goodbye to his housemates.
Speaker 2: But that sort of stuff crops up all the time,
Speaker 2: you know, even in the cube or in the voice
Speaker 2: or you know, like, you can't script that stuff as
Speaker 2: much as people think you can.
Speaker 1: How much do you pre plan, I mean, in what's
Speaker 1: going to happen? Do you set up situations hoping to
Speaker 1: generate certain storylines?
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say certainly, not on shows I've done. Like
Speaker 2: you know, if you put a challenge in or a task,
Speaker 2: you're hoping something comes out of it. Like if we
Speaker 2: put in Love Island, they put in a tweet game.
Speaker 2: You want a reaction. That's the whole point of it.
Speaker 2: I'm a celeb. We put in a tweet game at night,
Speaker 2: you want them to react a certain way. Or if
Speaker 2: we know someone's afraid of heights and there just happens
Speaker 2: to be a treadmill on the side of a cliff,
Speaker 2: You're probably going to want the person that's afraid of
Speaker 2: heights to do it because it's good story when they
Speaker 2: do it, like Birchmore did it a couple of years ago,
Speaker 2: Like she was petrified, but she still got it out
Speaker 2: in that treadmill. And I was up on that now
Speaker 2: and it is terrifying, Like I would not do that,
Speaker 2: but you know they do it, and that's what makes
Speaker 2: it so good.
Speaker 1: I think, oh, one hundred percent. And I always wondered
Speaker 1: how much you would speak to like maybe the casting
Speaker 1: or the psychologists to understand the habits of you know,
Speaker 1: these reality TV stars before the series starts. Do you
Speaker 1: sit down with those people and go, oh, we've now
Speaker 1: got an idea of who this person is before it starts,
Speaker 1: so we kind of know what we need to look for.
Speaker 2: You definitely do sit down with casting or you get
Speaker 2: a run through of who the cast is. Like Big Brother,
Speaker 2: we would always get these are the housemates, these are
Speaker 2: what we think they'll be, but as we find out
Speaker 2: that often isn't the case. Like there's people you think
Speaker 2: are going to be really annoying, and people thought like
Speaker 2: Tim Dormer. I remember he went in and was really
Speaker 2: annoying and everyone could not stand him. And had we
Speaker 2: not had Vote to Say, if he would have been
Speaker 2: out the first week even you probably would have been
Speaker 2: out the first week without Vote to Save. You can
Speaker 2: cast someone to be like the annoying character you think
Speaker 2: they're going to be annoying you know there is they'll
Speaker 2: irritate them, and then their personality will change depending on
Speaker 2: the dynamics of the house or the villa, or wherever
Speaker 2: the heck the show is set. And often you'll get
Speaker 2: these sorts of shows cast people who are kind of
Speaker 2: alphas in their group, like the dominant one, and then
Speaker 2: they'll come into a situation that there's seven other alphas
Speaker 2: and that person will shrink away and go into their shell.
Speaker 2: So everyone reacts really differently, and one thing casting, you know,
Speaker 2: casting might say one thing and that person's totally something
Speaker 2: like I mean, Cassidy, she's the sweetheart, ends up being
Speaker 2: the villain by the end. Or Tim he's the annoying
Speaker 2: one and now he's beloved by Australia and wins Big Brother.
Speaker 2: You know, you just you just don't know. And the
Speaker 2: most interesting thing is people that go in there expecting
Speaker 2: to be a certain thing themselves and want to portray
Speaker 2: that often end up stuffing it them for themselves. So
Speaker 2: it's always better to be honest about who you are
Speaker 2: than try to be something you're not, Like I want
Speaker 2: to be the good guy that everyone loves. Inevitably you'll
Speaker 2: stuff up and somehow you could become the villain or
Speaker 2: the idiot, or you come off the exact opposite of
Speaker 2: what you're trying to do. So it's really interesting and
Speaker 2: changes all the time.
Speaker 1: I was at a party the other day and there
Speaker 1: it was an event and there was a people from
Speaker 1: Rally television everywhere, and someone came up to me and
Speaker 1: they were like, I'm the fun person, Like I'm always
Speaker 1: fun and I'm fun right now, Like I'm fun, and
Speaker 1: they go, why do they make me so unlikable? Like
Speaker 1: you know, when I watched the show back, I just
Speaker 1: was like, who is that person? Why you like that?
Speaker 1: Like she was like, why wouldn't they just show me
Speaker 1: as this fun person? And I was like, news from
Speaker 1: the network, you are that annoying person right now, and yeah,
Speaker 1: like you obviously have no idea. There's a disconnect between
Speaker 1: who you are and how the world can see you.
Speaker 2: I once saw a block producer when they're interviewing, they
Speaker 2: do the end of day interviews, just saying to someone, look,
Speaker 2: you just need to be honest. Honesty is better than
Speaker 2: putting on a front because eventually you're going to figure
Speaker 2: that front, like we figure the front out, or you
Speaker 2: expose yourself somehow. And I remember this couple were trying
Speaker 2: to be the nice ones, like we're not getting involved
Speaker 2: in conflict, but meanwhile you can see them with the
Speaker 2: couple that was causing conflict, and they just end up
Speaker 2: looking like little lap dogs next to them, like they're
Speaker 2: like their little cheerleaders, and you're like, you're not coming
Speaker 2: across as the happy, go lucky people. You think you
Speaker 2: are now because we've got all this footage of you
Speaker 2: kind of bitching behind people's backs, which everyone does it.
Speaker 2: Let's be honest, if someone had a camera on me
Speaker 2: all the time, people probably wouldn't like me, but you know,
Speaker 2: like they do it to themselves to be honest and
Speaker 2: be yourself, and it will come through on camera. And
Speaker 2: it always it's always the people that are honest that
Speaker 2: people fall in love with, despite their flaws and probably
Speaker 2: because of them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think that's the tangible thing. It's relatable
Speaker 1: when you're seeing people behave badly on television. Nine times
Speaker 1: out of ten, we've all behaved badly in our own life,
Speaker 1: and we like to be seen on screen. So you're like,
Speaker 1: oh god, I can't believe she just did that. I
Speaker 1: remember I did that once. And then you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I like her, you know what I mean. Even if
Speaker 1: it is the most horrible, you know, things that these
Speaker 1: people do, You're like, okay, I can relate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone does horrible things. It's just you don't have
Speaker 2: a camera on you all the time to expose what's
Speaker 2: going on. You know, Like everyone complains, so everyone's bitching
Speaker 2: and like everyone gossips and if you put a camera
Speaker 2: on in an office and just had cameras in all
Speaker 2: the rooms, you could probably get a really good TV
Speaker 2: show out of that because people are running from room
Speaker 2: to room or like, did you hear about this? Everyone
Speaker 2: looks like them stabbing or not very nice, but it's
Speaker 2: just human nature.
Speaker 1: You've worked in the Australian and the American market throughout
Speaker 1: your career. How does the Australian and the US market
Speaker 1: differ when it comes to the content that's being made?
Speaker 1: What makes them so different?
Speaker 2: I think the biggest thing is the size. Like Australia
Speaker 2: is such a small Like we've got what like five
Speaker 2: main channels and all the digitals and then we've got
Speaker 2: Foxtel and you've got your stand and Netflix and Disney
Speaker 2: Plus and whatever. But over there, like I had nine
Speaker 2: hundred channels on my cable and that's not including the
Speaker 2: streamers like Netflix, HBO, Max, like every Man and his
Speaker 2: Dog has a streaming channel now over there. So I
Speaker 2: think the breadth of content that they can make and
Speaker 2: the huge market they can afford to be a bit
Speaker 2: more niche than we can. I worked on a show
Speaker 2: over there that's run. I worked on a spin off.
Speaker 2: So there's a show called Forged in Fire I think
Speaker 2: a place here on History Channel where it's basically Project
Speaker 2: Runway for Knives, so like people make knives each week
Speaker 2: or swords and then they test them. So that's run
Speaker 2: for over ten seasons in the States, and I worked
Speaker 2: on the spinoff, which was Forging Fire Knife or Death,
Speaker 2: which is like Ninja Warrior with swords. So they had
Speaker 2: to run a course and chop through pineapples in one
Speaker 2: go and like slice a fish in half without getting
Speaker 2: caught on the butt. Like it's insane.
Speaker 1: You're making this up.
Speaker 2: I'm not making it up. That is that is something
Speaker 2: we would never make here. Like do we have people
Speaker 2: into knives and swords? Probably? Do we have enough to
Speaker 2: fill ten seasons of a show and three seasons of
Speaker 2: a spin off? Probably not, But America they do. They
Speaker 2: can afford to go really niche. We would never make
Speaker 2: that show here. I just don't think we have a
Speaker 2: enough of the talent probably I don't know, but also
Speaker 2: the reach of audio and you know, like they can
Speaker 2: really cater to that audience there whereas we just can't.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine Beth mccavey at Channel ten or James
Speaker 1: Warburton at Channel seven. They're like, got the upfront's coming.
Speaker 1: I know what it is. Let's do that knife show
Speaker 1: from America and see how that goes.
Speaker 2: It would be amazing. I would watch it because I watch, Yes,
Speaker 2: I just don't. I don't see it happening here. And
Speaker 2: it's just because of the total different size in markets,
Speaker 2: Like they have shows about you know, that Duck Dynasty
Speaker 2: show about people that hunt for ducks, or like like
Speaker 2: we have things like open Mind Hunters, I guess, or
Speaker 2: Territory Cops or something, but it's not as specific as that, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: a knife forging show and it's a big hit over there.
Speaker 2: Like that's one of the biggest appeals of going there
Speaker 2: is working on shows I pretty much knew I could
Speaker 2: never work on here. We just don't have we don't
Speaker 2: have the audience or the budget.
Speaker 1: Even what about game shows, because that's really interesting that
Speaker 1: game shows like Holly Molly, The Cube, Ultimate Tag, all
Speaker 1: of these shows, which I think are fantastic and I
Speaker 1: really applaud having new content here in Australia going up
Speaker 1: against the beast of merit At first sight, what do
Speaker 1: you think the reason is that those shows aren't resonating
Speaker 1: as much as a show like Maths.
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of I know, I said
Speaker 2: America has a lot more choice over there, but I
Speaker 2: think we also have a lot more choice here now
Speaker 2: with the Netflix and stuff, and people are just moving
Speaker 2: away from appointment television, like Maps in a way is
Speaker 2: an appointment television show. You know the next day at work,
Speaker 2: everyone's going to be talking about it. You want to
Speaker 2: gossip about Maths or Love Ireland or any of those,
Speaker 2: like they're like dramas, but they're not whereas I don't
Speaker 2: know if game shows have that kind of gospip ability.
Speaker 2: That's the wrong stupid word to use, but you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, Like the qube by all means should
Speaker 2: be doing really well. But I think it's just a
Speaker 2: nature of the split. People have stopped watching regular TV
Speaker 2: where they you know, unless it's an event, unless it's Maths,
Speaker 2: unless it's Big Brother or something that you can or
Speaker 2: you're behind the conversation.
Speaker 1: Last year, my sister said to me, she was like,
Speaker 1: I can't go out tonight, or I can't come over
Speaker 1: for dinner. I'm watching UK Love Island and everyone at
Speaker 1: my work is watching it, and I can't miss it
Speaker 1: because I won't be able to join the conversation tomorrow.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh my goodness, Like I remember
Speaker 1: that for me growing up in the nineties, Like I
Speaker 1: remember once I missed the finale of melrose Place and
Speaker 1: no one spoke to me for twenty four hours, and
Speaker 1: I just was like what. But you know, again, that
Speaker 1: comes down to the definition of appointment television and the
Speaker 1: idea that we were all watching it, where the idea
Speaker 1: that all of Australia is sitting there at seven thirty
Speaker 1: eight to eight thirty is no longer a thing because
Speaker 1: you know, they do have you know, last night, I
Speaker 1: think it was so funny. I spoke to like five
Speaker 1: of my friends today and all five of them watched
Speaker 1: different things, but they all selected it. They all chose that.
Speaker 1: They're like Woody Allen versus Mia Farrow that documentary that's
Speaker 1: on Foxtel. You know, so so vast because we are
Speaker 1: appealing to the masses. Is a little bit of disappointment
Speaker 1: in the fact that because I still love Freedoware television,
Speaker 1: I grew up being obsessed with TV, especially Australian television.
Speaker 1: There is a bit of a disappointment to see those
Speaker 1: numbers drop. Do you reckon we will see them go
Speaker 1: back up?
Speaker 2: I think they might, like everyone. I think the pandemic
Speaker 2: proved that people just want to watch stuff and they'll
Speaker 2: find it anyway they can. Like that's a thing, like
Speaker 2: you can still if you miss the Cube, you should
Speaker 2: go to ten play and watch it, you know, like
Speaker 2: you can go watch it whenever you want.
Speaker 1: Now do you think we like storylines with people that
Speaker 1: we can delve a little bit deeper into, especially like
Speaker 1: relationship based you know, there isn't enough backstory for us
Speaker 1: to delve out minds into that we're not going to
Speaker 1: be there because I think that with Holy Molly as
Speaker 1: an example, you know, the time that each contestant was
Speaker 1: on screen with five minutes. Sure we've got a little background,
Speaker 1: and sure we got to see them take on the challenge,
Speaker 1: but did we spend enough time with those people to
Speaker 1: develop a relationship with them? Do you think that appointment television,
Speaker 1: that it still exists, has to be surrounded by a
Speaker 1: deeper relationship with these people.
Speaker 2: I don't think so, to be honest, I wouldn't be
Speaker 2: watching Holy Moly for the characters, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: I'm watching for the crazy holes and the challenges they've
Speaker 2: got to do. And if you get good characters, it's
Speaker 2: a bonus, you know, Like I think Cube Cast is
Speaker 2: really good, and you're probably watching the Cube to see
Speaker 2: the Cube beat them or see if they can beat
Speaker 2: the Cube, not so much watching for their story, If
Speaker 2: that makes sense. I think it helps if there's a
Speaker 2: continuing story. It's I think that's why Maths works because
Speaker 2: people just want to see what happens next, what happens next.
Speaker 2: It's much more a drama than a in many ways,
Speaker 2: like a game show is kind of standalone. You could
Speaker 2: slot in anywhere and you can still follow it. Like
Speaker 2: you can watch any episode of Who Wants to Be
Speaker 2: a Millionaire and it doesn't matter that you miss the
Speaker 2: first three, But if you miss the first three of Maths,
Speaker 2: you're going to miss out on the discussion.
Speaker 1: I like Holy Moly, because I like pretending that people
Speaker 1: I don't really like in the real world are the
Speaker 1: people that fall off the challenges. And the funny thing
Speaker 1: was someone who I actually really hate in real life
Speaker 1: ended up on the show and I was watching it
Speaker 1: and I had to rub my eyes. I was like what,
Speaker 1: I was like, I hate this woman and then she
Speaker 1: like had a ghastly death, and I was like, that's
Speaker 1: why I love this show is because you know, I
Speaker 1: get these moments. And my partner kept saying to me
Speaker 1: when I had this conflict with this woman years ago,
Speaker 1: he was like, you need to tell her that she's
Speaker 1: an asshole. You need to pull her up on it.
Speaker 1: And I was like, no, because eventually people get their
Speaker 1: come up and and holy moly, finally let me have
Speaker 1: the joy moment.
Speaker 2: And sometimes that's what you want. Like sometimes you're watching,
Speaker 2: you know, a game show or something, and you don't
Speaker 2: like the person. You're like, I hope you lose, you know,
Speaker 2: I hope, I hope you lose all your money. And
Speaker 2: I've done that, you know, you know, like, God, you're annoying.
Speaker 2: I really hope you don't get it. It's the same
Speaker 2: thing in a drama. You want that person to be punished,
Speaker 2: but hey, it's entertaining to watch what would all happen
Speaker 2: and unfold like that keeps you watching in a sense.
Speaker 1: We've come to know. So the term stripped reality a
Speaker 1: show that is stretched out over a few episodes over
Speaker 1: a week. Does that work better here or in America?
Speaker 2: That's actually not something they really do in America at all,
Speaker 2: stripped reality, like I think they do it for game shows, sure,
Speaker 2: but like Love Ireland. When I did the first season
Speaker 2: of US Love Island, that was I believe one of
Speaker 2: the first stripped realities they had. And I think we
Speaker 2: were on five nights a week and we went six
Speaker 2: nights a week last year. But it's very much an
Speaker 2: Australian thing as far as I know. I think even
Speaker 2: The Bachelor over there is only maybe two nights a
Speaker 2: week if that, or one, but Love Ireland was definitely
Speaker 2: the first, and it was a big gamble I think
Speaker 2: for CBS because that's unheard of because even their Big
Speaker 2: Brother is three nights a week and it's not consecutive.
Speaker 2: I don't think. I think it works really well over here,
Speaker 2: and I think that's why we do it all the time,
Speaker 2: you know, like people are it's almost that binge watching things.
Speaker 2: So I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't start a
Speaker 2: bit more in the States because you can get I
Speaker 2: guess more out of a series in a way.
Speaker 1: You know, it makes more sense out of the back
Speaker 1: end of it because you understand advertising money and selling
Speaker 1: a program for a higher amount of money because there's
Speaker 1: more content to sort of advertise through. I'd never heard
Speaker 1: of the term stripped reality before I started doing this podcast,
Speaker 1: and it's interesting. I then started seeing people discussing it
Speaker 1: in the media over the last few weeks. It's becoming
Speaker 1: like Australia's hip to the notion that they're watching a
Speaker 1: show that's been stretched out, and there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people being like, well, I wish it wasn't longer. I
Speaker 1: wish it was shorter, you know. So it's interesting whether
Speaker 1: or not we will continue to see strip reality as
Speaker 1: much knowing that audiences aren't tuning into it.
Speaker 2: I think it depends how much you strip it, like
Speaker 2: how much you stretch something out. If you stretch something
Speaker 2: past its natural kind of life, then I think it
Speaker 2: suffers for it. You know, Like, if the content holds,
Speaker 2: then it's fine being stripped, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: But if it doesn't and you're stretching it out as
Speaker 2: you want to stretch it out, I think the audience
Speaker 2: notices and switches off. So I think you have to
Speaker 2: have the content worthy of stripping it.
Speaker 1: I think that's interesting because you know, in post, and
Speaker 1: you're working in post, you know, are you getting to
Speaker 1: the point where you know that there's an amount of
Speaker 1: content you need to fill and you know there's not
Speaker 1: enough TV content? Do you get to that point with
Speaker 1: any of.
Speaker 2: The you would hope not. I haven't really worked on
Speaker 2: a show where that's been a problem. You've never had
Speaker 2: to stretch something out longer than it needs to. In effect,
Speaker 2: you usually have so much content. I remember the first
Speaker 2: season of Love Ireland. We were I think going to
Speaker 2: air a lot longer than we were supposed to be
Speaker 2: because we had so so much was happening we could
Speaker 2: not keep up. That was so exhausting. That show is
Speaker 2: really hard to make, but really rewarding to make, but
Speaker 2: just because of the content they churn through, you know,
Speaker 2: like people are breaking up, new relationship starting and you're like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, can you guys just slow down so
Speaker 2: we can catch up.
Speaker 1: Are we're putting too much pressure on ourselves to make
Speaker 1: shows always look so beautiful? Like as then you watch
Speaker 1: these shows these days and Survivor looks like a Bruce
Speaker 1: Beresford film, you know what I mean? Like Endemol really
Speaker 1: is turning out some amazing content that visually is so
Speaker 1: turned up, like it's so amazing. Are we putting too
Speaker 1: much pressure on ourselves to make things look visually appealing
Speaker 1: and getting too far away from the rawness of the
Speaker 1: reality of the contestants and their interactions.
Speaker 2: I don't think so. Like a lot of what you
Speaker 2: would think is visually appealing are like the technologist come
Speaker 2: so far, Like drone shots make everything look awesome. You
Speaker 2: stick some drone shots in and it looks like a movie.
Speaker 2: Now there stays And that's not that much work, if
Speaker 2: that makes sense to make that look really good. And
Speaker 2: I think you can put as much flash on something
Speaker 2: as you want if it's not compelling content, people aren't
Speaker 2: going to give a shit. If it's got flashes and
Speaker 2: bells and whistle, you know, like and it looks glossy like.
Speaker 2: And I think people demand that now because we're so
Speaker 2: much more use to looking at things like the Netflix
Speaker 2: shows and you know, like where it's glossy and big
Speaker 2: budget and it doesn't take much to make things look
Speaker 2: like that. These people can do it on their phone,
Speaker 2: you know, like they can shoot whole movies on their
Speaker 2: phone that look amazing. So why shouldn't TV kind of
Speaker 2: look like that? And at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: you want to put out a product that looks great,
Speaker 2: like I don't want to work on a show that
Speaker 2: looks like slop Like I mean, the Cube looks awesome,
Speaker 2: like we've got all the fancy ar stuff which is unbelievable,
Speaker 2: and it looks all futuristic, and I mean it just
Speaker 2: adds that extra dimension to the show.
Speaker 1: When you think about the people, you know, the type
Speaker 1: of people drawn to reality at the moment, are they
Speaker 1: too wise to the show's formats. I mean, I know
Speaker 1: someone who wanted to be on TV so bad and
Speaker 1: that they are on TV at the moment playing the
Speaker 1: villain role so hard. Are we allowing too many attention
Speaker 1: seekers onto programs these days and getting too far away
Speaker 1: from say the Reggie fish and chip shop owner, like
Speaker 1: people who are more willing to unpack their genuine bag
Speaker 1: of shit. We're now seeing people going, I know how
Speaker 1: to play that villain role, and they're getting in there
Speaker 1: and they're unauthentically being an asshole just to get attention.
Speaker 2: I don't think you could ever find another Reggie that
Speaker 2: makes sense, Like, I think everyone's too savvy to it.
Speaker 2: And let's be honest, someone that's like a Reggie probably
Speaker 2: is not going to audition for reality TV. Sure you
Speaker 2: can find them. They're like a diamond in the RAF
Speaker 2: and you don't always want to go with someone who's
Speaker 2: like I'm You can smell people desperate to be on TV.
Speaker 2: They can't just be I want to be on TV
Speaker 2: and be famous because I think the audience sees through
Speaker 2: that now and most of the cut like you would
Speaker 2: try and avoid casting that person. But I also think
Speaker 2: it's getting harder and harder as you know, all the
Speaker 2: TikTok and everything kind of merges into one. People have
Speaker 2: so many more options to be on TV as it
Speaker 2: were that, yeah, you're just not going to it's harder
Speaker 2: to find. It's harder to find a Reggie and I
Speaker 2: mean that's some of the best TV I've seen. Reggie.
Speaker 4: What do you think the Australian public fell in love
Speaker 4: with you?
Speaker 2: That's more annoying voice genuine I think because I say
Speaker 2: I get in trouble a lot because I say what
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 1: Because he's Reggie Bird was the rough diamond who became
Speaker 1: a national treasure.
Speaker 2: I wanted a holiday.
Speaker 3: Because I was working in the fish.
Speaker 1: And chip shop and I just wanted a holiday because
Speaker 1: only had two days break a year.
Speaker 2: I don't want to get back to my life, you know,
Speaker 2: Like I still remember when she says Chris's wearing a
Speaker 2: moose head and Reggie literally goes, I don't want to
Speaker 2: go back to my life. Like I see that clip
Speaker 2: and I would still tear up because it's so genuine
Speaker 2: And I think you still do get that even if
Speaker 2: people kind of want to be on TV, but that
Speaker 2: kind of rawness. I don't know that. I think we're
Speaker 2: all too affected now.
Speaker 1: No, I think that you're right. I mean it is
Speaker 1: a little bit sad in some ways, because that was
Speaker 1: the true magic of these shows was, as I said,
Speaker 1: watching someone unpack their bag of shit on television is
Speaker 1: good viewing. You know, if you can see them editing
Speaker 1: or self editing, or controlling the situation and being something
Speaker 1: who they probably aren't normally just to get a grab,
Speaker 1: knowing that's what's going to end up on television, it
Speaker 1: becomes unauthentic. And interestingly enough, there's someone on Maths at
Speaker 1: the moment that I genuinely know very well and is
Speaker 1: literally trying to do anything that will come across as
Speaker 1: bad so that he gets the worst villain edit of
Speaker 1: all time, so that he can then redeem himself afterwards,
Speaker 1: because then, if you think about it, it takes.
Speaker 2: A certain level of person to do.
Speaker 1: That, Like, yeah, where's Clarice Stoling when you need her
Speaker 1: so that she can put that person in jail because
Speaker 1: he's a serial killer, Like you know that person is
Speaker 1: a sociopath, because they're aware of that, they're playing that
Speaker 1: role and they've got other people falling into that, and
Speaker 1: most audiences aren't aware of it. Most audiences like, oh,
Speaker 1: this guy's I really like this.
Speaker 2: I think someone like that might get found out, you know,
Speaker 2: or it won't go the way they think it is.
Speaker 2: But I don't know that you can. You try and
Speaker 2: avoid it where you can. But maybe they're really watchable.
Speaker 1: Are there any shows that you won't do that? Could
Speaker 1: they come knocking and they're like, hey, can you come
Speaker 1: and do this show? And you've turned down?
Speaker 2: Not really. I'm kind of in a place now where
Speaker 2: I try to work on the shows I want to
Speaker 2: work on. There's a reason I've done seven seasons of
Speaker 2: IMUSSLEB because I genuinely enjoy the show. I love Love Island. No,
Speaker 2: there's nothing I'm like, you know, I'm lucky enough that
Speaker 2: I don't have to go do shows that I'm not
Speaker 2: going to mention that I don't maybe want to do,
Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, and I've been able to do a
Speaker 2: variety of different.
Speaker 1: Things continue to interest you, you know. I think that's
Speaker 1: the important thing for you. Like we often talk about
Speaker 1: being authentic in front of the camera, but I actually
Speaker 1: think that your authentic reasons to be behind the camera
Speaker 1: is also really vital because I know people who make television,
Speaker 1: and I know the best content makers are the people
Speaker 1: who are genuinely passionate about it and are there for
Speaker 1: the right reasons.
Speaker 2: I think you want to like what you do, like anything,
Speaker 2: you know, Like you hope that you're working in a field,
Speaker 2: getting to do something that you enjoy doing, because if not,
Speaker 2: it's a job, you know, and no one wants to
Speaker 2: be doing just a job. So yeah, I've been kind
Speaker 2: of lucky. I've been kind of lucky, you know, Like
Speaker 2: I've allowed I've been able to travel, I've been able
Speaker 2: to work overseas, you know.
Speaker 1: Like my last question for you is the same question
Speaker 1: I ask everybody, and that is over the many years
Speaker 1: of making television, is there something of a funny story,
Speaker 1: something that you tell around the dinner table.
Speaker 2: I think I can tell. So in the twenty two
Speaker 2: so your season of Big Brother, it was secrets, right,
Speaker 2: the big thing with secrets, and it was so closely
Speaker 2: guarded that the boys had a secret and the girls
Speaker 2: had to see. And my good friend who's really high
Speaker 2: up in America now, Simon, had worked with Alex. So
Speaker 2: we were transcribing your Master interviews and I couldn't know
Speaker 2: what someone else's secret was, right like while we were transcribing.
Speaker 2: It was that tight. And I remember we launched and
Speaker 2: we were coming up to the first night where we
Speaker 2: were going to reveal the boy's secrets, and we had
Speaker 2: to of course get each of the boys into the
Speaker 2: die room to talk about what their secret was, like,
Speaker 2: tell Big Brother what your secret is so we could
Speaker 2: build packages to reveal them. And I remember quite clearly George,
Speaker 2: whose secret was that he was a millionaire, went into
Speaker 2: the die room, told his secret and literally walked out
Speaker 2: into the backyard. And when Big Brother told me, I
Speaker 2: could tell you my secret, and like, this is twelve
Speaker 2: month's worth of planning, and I involunteer laughed because it
Speaker 2: was one of those moments where you're like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: this is all going to because the girls have to
Speaker 2: guess on Sunday, this is all going to go pear shaped.
Speaker 2: And I remember Simon just screaming at me. We're not screaming.
Speaker 2: He was like, don't like because I'd started laughing. And
Speaker 2: I still to this day we reference if I've done
Speaker 2: something to annoy him. He's like, George like thankfully, because
Speaker 2: I mean he was on the phone. I think Alex
Speaker 2: was on the phone the control room. We're like screaming
Speaker 2: into the house, going George, come back to the diary room, George,
Speaker 2: come back to the die room. It was like the
Speaker 2: whole the whole Sunday Night show hinged on, none of
Speaker 2: the girls knowing that George was a millionaire, because no
Speaker 2: one was probably going to guess that George was a
Speaker 2: millionaire because I think they guessed you were the millionaire.
Speaker 1: They did the millionaire.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's probably yeah. I still hear to know, like.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's seriously And that's the best thing
Speaker 1: about reality television is it can literally turn itself on
Speaker 1: its head within just a second because the person you
Speaker 1: cast is George. I just want to say thank you
Speaker 1: so much for being here today. Fantastic to unpack being
Speaker 1: a story producer and also getting your insights in television.
Speaker 1: Congratulations on all the work that you're doing and I
Speaker 1: can't wait to watch more of your shows.