WEBVTT - 🤯CREATING THE STORY YOU SEE ON REALITY TV! 🤯 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:03.920 Welcome back to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris and 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:06.600 on this podcast I'll be going behind the scenes with 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:09.840 the biggest players in television. On today's episode, I have 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:12.920 Brett Bowman, who is a story producer on TV shows 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:16.360 made here in Australia and the US of a specializing 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:18.799 in reality TV. He has worked across some of the 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:22.119 biggest shows we've ever seen on Australian screens. His job 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:25.440 is to collaborate with executive producers and editors and find 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:27.800 the stories that are the most interesting that will end 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:30.120 up on your TV. He has some of the best 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:33.880 storytelling and scriptwriting skills in the business, which makes producers, 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.000 TV networks and production studios line up to work with him. 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:38.080 He knows more. 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:41.040 About the reality stars on his shows than they probably 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:44.760 know about themselves, which is pretty creepy but also very 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:48.800 fascinating to unpack. So I'd like to welcome you to today's guest. 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:50.000 It's Brett Bowman. 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:53.040 So I'm a story producer in the sense that I'm 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:55.000 a post producer. 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:56.440 For the first time in the history of for Shark. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:58.800 And obviously you've got story notes and stuff and you 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:00.440 pick out this is going to be the focus of 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:01.640 the episode. 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:02.840 Like I'm tolerating you in here. 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:05.800 It's like a jigsaw puzzle and we put the pieces 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:09.800 together the winner of Big Brother. These sorts of shows 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:12.360 cast people who are kind of alphers. 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:14.319 To find out who else is going into the jungle. 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:18.000 It's always better to be honest about who you are 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:20.760 than try to be something you're not. 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:22.520 Hey, mate, how are you are you? 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.840 Well? I'm good? How are you I'm I'm really well. Yeah. 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:29.279 You've worked on I'm a celebrity, Love Island, The Block, 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:33.720 Big Brother, The Voice. What is it that producers get 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:35.399 when they hire you for a job. 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.840 Well, I mean I love television, I love working in TV, 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:42.520 and I think probably a sense of humor. Like I 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:44.680 know when we used to work on The Block, people 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:46.920 would be like, oh, yours is the funny episode. 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.960 So, as a story producer in reality TV, you're responsible 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:54.040 for following and developing storylines throughout the day. Can you 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:56.560 give me an example of how that works on a 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:57.360 reality show? 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:00.320 Yes, So I'm a story producer in the sense that 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:04.480 I'm a post producer. So a normal story producer is 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:06.640 like in the field, say you're on married at first site, 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.639 You're there at the wedding, you're there at the honeymoon, 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:12.959 you're there at the dinner party, whatever, Whereas I'm more 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.040 you've filmed it all and now we make the story 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:18.280 again in post. What's going to go to where? So 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.280 it's different for different shows. Like when I've worked on 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:24.040 the Block, you get given an episode which might be 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:26.640 two or three days, and you watch all the footage 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:28.720 and obviously you've got story notes and stuff, and you 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:30.360 pick out this is going to be the focus of 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:33.280 the episode. We'll follow these teams doing this doing that, 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.920 Whereas something like Love Island, you're making the show as 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.760 it's being made in the villa, so like literally you're 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:45.080 responding to everything that happens, and we know that this 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:47.880 happened this morning, and we'll probably have to follow and 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:51.080 see where that goes. So we know, oh, by the 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.280 last act of tonight's show, we know we're building towards this. 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:57.360 If there's an event like a you know, new bombshells 0:02:57.360 --> 0:02:59.880 are coming in or something like that, so it's like 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.679 jigsaw puzzle and we put the pieces together to make 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:03.640 it all fit. 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:06.000 Well, you're working on the cube at the moment, so 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:08.720 that series hasn't obviously come to an end. You're still 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:11.160 working on that post production of putting that whole show together. 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:14.720 Yeah. So we filmed a couple of weeks ago in 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.320 a big block and I was there for some of 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:19.560 the filming, and then I could stream from the office 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:22.280 because I'm a supervisor on the show, so we could 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.040 get pickups on the run. You can just make more suggestions, 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:26.760 like if he's doing a throw to break you go, 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.280 can you do it this way? Or we might need 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.720 to spread this game over to an ad break. I 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:33.920 haven't seen a better position. 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:39.960 Eight lives through three games, four games away from a 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:45.720 quarter of a million dollars? Are they brave enough to 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:47.680 step into the qube once again? 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:52.040 To find out? Next week we'll see that. It's more 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:54.680 that sort of thing in something like The Cube, because 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:57.240 there's not a lot of story there. Obviously, the story 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:00.440 is can they beat the Cube? Yeah? And then often 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.320 you'll have little things for the characters, and so like 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:07.480 threading that Nan and Grandson story beat throughout their journey 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:09.400 to see if they can beat the Cube, or you know, 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:11.320 it varies within each character. 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:13.840 You know, what's interesting about The Cube was that, you know, 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.279 we got that cliffhanger where their storyline is going to 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:19.960 continue over to the next episode. Is there a choice 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:22.320 in post production that you go, oh, this is a 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.120 good hook. You know, we want them to come back 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:27.360 for episode three, so we're going to choose their storyline 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:28.799 to break those episodes apart. 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:31.640 Yeah, you want to be able to drag people across 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:33.880 to the next step and see so we have like 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:37.240 all the couples all you know, they're all shot, and 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:39.880 we figure out where they go. Like, these guys could 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:42.720 be good to start the episode. These are someone who 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.040 you want at the end. These we could They've done 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:48.320 enough games that we can stretch them across a thing. 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.400 And someone like Connie and Hayden. There's such interesting characters. 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.760 It automatically makes a good promo. People are going to 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.000 want to see if they can beat the cube and 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.359 win a quarter of a mill. It's kind of a 0:04:59.400 --> 0:04:59.920 no brainer. 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.239 How did you end up falling in love with unscripted reality? 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:05.600 I mean, you and I both around about the same age, 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:08.360 so we've grown up with scripted content on television. What 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:10.919 was it that made you fall in love with unscripted reality? 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.080 It was easier to get into Does that make sense? 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:17.440 Not that I don't love it, but in Australia it 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:21.040 feels like I did eight weeks as a storyliner on 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:25.200 Neighbors and it was super tough because that show is 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.120 a machine and I don't think it's enough credit that 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:31.760 it deserves. So just the shit output of episodes, you know, 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:34.200 it's a movie a week if you were to add 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.640 it up, and then reality is just something that we 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:39.920 just make more of it, so you end up kind 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:41.760 of falling into that. But I also love it, Like 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:44.240 I grew up watching the original Big Brother and so 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:47.000 to work on Big Brother wen Channel nine brought it 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.200 back was like a dream come true for me and 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:53.440 still ranks as one of my favorite television experiences. And 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.440 then that's kind of evolved into a show like Love Island. 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:59.120 You get to often travel like I've been to Africa, 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.719 I've been to span You just get something different every time, 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.359 like I've done. And even when I moved to the States, 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:07.520 there was I've worked on shows that we would never 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.400 make here purely because we're a much smaller market than 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:11.040 the US is. 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:13.359 I mean, that's what's fascinating about And we're going to 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:14.880 get into that in a little bit, because it is 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:17.320 fascinating to see what those markets and how they are different. 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:20.320 But you know, when it comes to reality television, do 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:23.320 you enjoy the free falling of not knowing what people 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:24.400 are going to do next? 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:27.440 I do. I hate when people are like, oh, that's 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.400 so scripted, and it's like, you don't know how much 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.280 easier our jobs would be if it was scripted. And 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.599 sometimes things are pear scripted because that is how people act, 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:41.800 you know, like they do cheat on their part. Sometimes 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:44.160 the hardest thing is when they don't act like you 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:46.919 would expect someone to, and we go, how do we 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:49.880 work this in? Because people will actually think this isn't real. 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.120 Reality TV still have to follow a kind of basic 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:58.400 storytelling formula, But those moments that happen I think are 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:03.320 so much better because they're actually real. Like watching Love 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:07.600 Island when Cassidy went from I called it the meg 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:12.040 Reyinarch where she was like sleepless in Seattle, like America's sweetheart, 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:16.240 to like turning into basically becoming not a villain per se, 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:19.160 but like a product of her own behavior. 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:21.080 She turned into basic instinct by the end. 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:24.560 Yeah, and I've seen like people cry. I remember, look, 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:27.280 it was horrific, but I remember in twenty twelve in 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.440 Your Big Brother when Josh's brother died. That was like, 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:32.440 it was hard for you guys in the house, but 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:34.679 it was just as hard for the four hundred crew 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:38.400 behind the scenes, because you're living with all of you 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:42.320 every single day and it's like family, even though you 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:43.880 guys have no idea who the hell we are. 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.280 The Big Brother house is in shock after learning Josh's 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:52.440 brother had died suddenly. Toby was just thirty two years old, 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:55.400 and it is believed he suffered a fatal heart attack 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:57.880 on Wednesday. Josh was taken to a private area where 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.560 he was met by his parents, who broke the news. 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:02.720 Josh then left the house that night to be with 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:06.640 his family, and on Thursday announced his decision to leave permanently. 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:08.679 He then returned to the house to collect his things 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:10.880 and say goodbye to his housemates. 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:13.880 But that sort of stuff crops up all the time, 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.400 you know, even in the cube or in the voice 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.680 or you know, like, you can't script that stuff as 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:22.000 much as people think you can. 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:24.400 How much do you pre plan, I mean, in what's 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:27.440 going to happen? Do you set up situations hoping to 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:28.880 generate certain storylines? 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:32.640 I wouldn't say certainly, not on shows I've done. Like 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:34.680 you know, if you put a challenge in or a task, 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:37.319 you're hoping something comes out of it. Like if we 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.360 put in Love Island, they put in a tweet game. 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:42.360 You want a reaction. That's the whole point of it. 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:44.720 I'm a celeb. We put in a tweet game at night, 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:47.720 you want them to react a certain way. Or if 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:50.400 we know someone's afraid of heights and there just happens 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.439 to be a treadmill on the side of a cliff, 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:54.880 You're probably going to want the person that's afraid of 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:58.760 heights to do it because it's good story when they 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:02.280 do it, like Birchmore did it a couple of years ago, 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.560 Like she was petrified, but she still got it out 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:06.440 in that treadmill. And I was up on that now 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:10.200 and it is terrifying, Like I would not do that, 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:13.520 but you know they do it, and that's what makes 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:14.120 it so good. 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:16.720 I think, oh, one hundred percent. And I always wondered 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:20.240 how much you would speak to like maybe the casting 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.080 or the psychologists to understand the habits of you know, 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:26.600 these reality TV stars before the series starts. Do you 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:29.679 sit down with those people and go, oh, we've now 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:33.000 got an idea of who this person is before it starts, 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.040 so we kind of know what we need to look for. 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:38.360 You definitely do sit down with casting or you get 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:41.040 a run through of who the cast is. Like Big Brother, 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:44.120 we would always get these are the housemates, these are 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.560 what we think they'll be, but as we find out 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:51.320 that often isn't the case. Like there's people you think 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:54.960 are going to be really annoying, and people thought like 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.160 Tim Dormer. I remember he went in and was really 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:00.800 annoying and everyone could not stand him. And had we 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:02.480 not had Vote to Say, if he would have been 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.080 out the first week even you probably would have been 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.920 out the first week without Vote to Save. You can 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.600 cast someone to be like the annoying character you think 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:13.920 they're going to be annoying you know there is they'll 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.600 irritate them, and then their personality will change depending on 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:21.000 the dynamics of the house or the villa, or wherever 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:24.240 the heck the show is set. And often you'll get 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:27.240 these sorts of shows cast people who are kind of 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:30.760 alphas in their group, like the dominant one, and then 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:34.840 they'll come into a situation that there's seven other alphas 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:38.880 and that person will shrink away and go into their shell. 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:43.880 So everyone reacts really differently, and one thing casting, you know, 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:47.640 casting might say one thing and that person's totally something 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.520 like I mean, Cassidy, she's the sweetheart, ends up being 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:54.440 the villain by the end. Or Tim he's the annoying 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:58.280 one and now he's beloved by Australia and wins Big Brother. 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:00.280 You know, you just you just don't know. And the 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:02.960 most interesting thing is people that go in there expecting 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:05.480 to be a certain thing themselves and want to portray 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:08.440 that often end up stuffing it them for themselves. So 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:12.079 it's always better to be honest about who you are 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:15.880 than try to be something you're not, Like I want 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.440 to be the good guy that everyone loves. Inevitably you'll 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:23.480 stuff up and somehow you could become the villain or 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:26.800 the idiot, or you come off the exact opposite of 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.400 what you're trying to do. So it's really interesting and 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:30.920 changes all the time. 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:32.800 I was at a party the other day and there 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:35.040 it was an event and there was a people from 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:37.839 Rally television everywhere, and someone came up to me and 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.679 they were like, I'm the fun person, Like I'm always 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:43.480 fun and I'm fun right now, Like I'm fun, and 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:46.560 they go, why do they make me so unlikable? Like 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.160 you know, when I watched the show back, I just 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:50.880 was like, who is that person? Why you like that? 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.200 Like she was like, why wouldn't they just show me 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.679 as this fun person? And I was like, news from 0:11:56.679 --> 0:12:00.360 the network, you are that annoying person right now, and yeah, 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:04.040 like you obviously have no idea. There's a disconnect between 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:06.680 who you are and how the world can see you. 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:10.800 I once saw a block producer when they're interviewing, they 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:14.440 do the end of day interviews, just saying to someone, look, 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:17.800 you just need to be honest. Honesty is better than 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.880 putting on a front because eventually you're going to figure 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.439 that front, like we figure the front out, or you 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:27.440 expose yourself somehow. And I remember this couple were trying 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.160 to be the nice ones, like we're not getting involved 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:33.120 in conflict, but meanwhile you can see them with the 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.360 couple that was causing conflict, and they just end up 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.640 looking like little lap dogs next to them, like they're 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:42.120 like their little cheerleaders, and you're like, you're not coming 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:44.960 across as the happy, go lucky people. You think you 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.960 are now because we've got all this footage of you 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:52.120 kind of bitching behind people's backs, which everyone does it. 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:53.960 Let's be honest, if someone had a camera on me 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:57.800 all the time, people probably wouldn't like me, but you know, 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:00.680 like they do it to themselves to be honest and 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:02.800 be yourself, and it will come through on camera. And 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:05.600 it always it's always the people that are honest that 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.240 people fall in love with, despite their flaws and probably 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:10.280 because of them. 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:12.960 Yeah, well, I think that's the tangible thing. It's relatable 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:16.080 when you're seeing people behave badly on television. Nine times 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:19.120 out of ten, we've all behaved badly in our own life, 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:21.800 and we like to be seen on screen. So you're like, 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:24.800 oh god, I can't believe she just did that. I 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:27.920 remember I did that once. And then you're like, oh, 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:29.920 I like her, you know what I mean. Even if 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:33.240 it is the most horrible, you know, things that these 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:36.080 people do, You're like, okay, I can relate. 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.840 Yeah, everyone does horrible things. It's just you don't have 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.000 a camera on you all the time to expose what's 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:44.920 going on. You know, Like everyone complains, so everyone's bitching 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:48.720 and like everyone gossips and if you put a camera 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.960 on in an office and just had cameras in all 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.400 the rooms, you could probably get a really good TV 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.200 show out of that because people are running from room 0:13:57.240 --> 0:13:59.320 to room or like, did you hear about this? Everyone 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:03.200 looks like them stabbing or not very nice, but it's 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:04.080 just human nature. 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.880 You've worked in the Australian and the American market throughout 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:11.000 your career. How does the Australian and the US market 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.920 differ when it comes to the content that's being made? 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:16.480 What makes them so different? 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.600 I think the biggest thing is the size. Like Australia 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:23.240 is such a small Like we've got what like five 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.280 main channels and all the digitals and then we've got 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.840 Foxtel and you've got your stand and Netflix and Disney 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:34.080 Plus and whatever. But over there, like I had nine 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:38.320 hundred channels on my cable and that's not including the 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:41.840 streamers like Netflix, HBO, Max, like every Man and his 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.960 Dog has a streaming channel now over there. So I 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.200 think the breadth of content that they can make and 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.160 the huge market they can afford to be a bit 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.920 more niche than we can. I worked on a show 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.800 over there that's run. I worked on a spin off. 0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:00.200 So there's a show called Forged in Fire I think 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.440 a place here on History Channel where it's basically Project 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:08.320 Runway for Knives, so like people make knives each week 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.920 or swords and then they test them. So that's run 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:15.520 for over ten seasons in the States, and I worked 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.440 on the spinoff, which was Forging Fire Knife or Death, 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:23.240 which is like Ninja Warrior with swords. So they had 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:26.720 to run a course and chop through pineapples in one 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:29.960 go and like slice a fish in half without getting 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:31.480 caught on the butt. Like it's insane. 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:32.680 You're making this up. 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:36.960 I'm not making it up. That is that is something 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:39.400 we would never make here. Like do we have people 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.280 into knives and swords? Probably? Do we have enough to 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:44.960 fill ten seasons of a show and three seasons of 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.640 a spin off? Probably not, But America they do. They 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.680 can afford to go really niche. We would never make 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:54.120 that show here. I just don't think we have a 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:58.240 enough of the talent probably I don't know, but also 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.600 the reach of audio and you know, like they can 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.600 really cater to that audience there whereas we just can't. 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.000 Can you imagine Beth mccavey at Channel ten or James 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:09.520 Warburton at Channel seven. They're like, got the upfront's coming. 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:12.280 I know what it is. Let's do that knife show 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.440 from America and see how that goes. 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:19.120 It would be amazing. I would watch it because I watch, Yes, 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.880 I just don't. I don't see it happening here. And 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:25.640 it's just because of the total different size in markets, 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:28.520 Like they have shows about you know, that Duck Dynasty 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:31.000 show about people that hunt for ducks, or like like 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.280 we have things like open Mind Hunters, I guess, or 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:38.240 Territory Cops or something, but it's not as specific as that, Like, yeah, 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:41.640 a knife forging show and it's a big hit over there. 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:44.480 Like that's one of the biggest appeals of going there 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:46.560 is working on shows I pretty much knew I could 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:49.200 never work on here. We just don't have we don't 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:50.360 have the audience or the budget. 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.320 Even what about game shows, because that's really interesting that 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.480 game shows like Holly Molly, The Cube, Ultimate Tag, all 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:58.720 of these shows, which I think are fantastic and I 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:03.240 really applaud having new content here in Australia going up 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:05.840 against the beast of merit At first sight, what do 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.760 you think the reason is that those shows aren't resonating 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:10.240 as much as a show like Maths. 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.920 I think there's a lot of I know, I said 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.040 America has a lot more choice over there, but I 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:16.840 think we also have a lot more choice here now 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.359 with the Netflix and stuff, and people are just moving 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:23.280 away from appointment television, like Maps in a way is 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.400 an appointment television show. You know the next day at work, 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:29.040 everyone's going to be talking about it. You want to 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:33.760 gossip about Maths or Love Ireland or any of those, 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:37.720 like they're like dramas, but they're not whereas I don't 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.680 know if game shows have that kind of gospip ability. 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:43.679 That's the wrong stupid word to use, but you know 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.679 what I mean, Like the qube by all means should 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:49.159 be doing really well. But I think it's just a 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:53.240 nature of the split. People have stopped watching regular TV 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:56.840 where they you know, unless it's an event, unless it's Maths, 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:00.560 unless it's Big Brother or something that you can or 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:02.000 you're behind the conversation. 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:04.040 Last year, my sister said to me, she was like, 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:05.560 I can't go out tonight, or I can't come over 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:09.840 for dinner. I'm watching UK Love Island and everyone at 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:11.959 my work is watching it, and I can't miss it 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:14.640 because I won't be able to join the conversation tomorrow. 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:17.640 And I was like, oh my goodness, Like I remember 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:19.800 that for me growing up in the nineties, Like I 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.359 remember once I missed the finale of melrose Place and 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.199 no one spoke to me for twenty four hours, and 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:26.679 I just was like what. But you know, again, that 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:31.040 comes down to the definition of appointment television and the 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.359 idea that we were all watching it, where the idea 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:36.800 that all of Australia is sitting there at seven thirty 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:39.840 eight to eight thirty is no longer a thing because 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:43.439 you know, they do have you know, last night, I 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:45.120 think it was so funny. I spoke to like five 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:47.520 of my friends today and all five of them watched 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.359 different things, but they all selected it. They all chose that. 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:54.400 They're like Woody Allen versus Mia Farrow that documentary that's 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:58.080 on Foxtel. You know, so so vast because we are 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:01.480 appealing to the masses. Is a little bit of disappointment 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:03.800 in the fact that because I still love Freedoware television, 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.720 I grew up being obsessed with TV, especially Australian television. 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:08.720 There is a bit of a disappointment to see those 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.000 numbers drop. Do you reckon we will see them go 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:11.520 back up? 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.919 I think they might, like everyone. I think the pandemic 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:17.160 proved that people just want to watch stuff and they'll 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:19.760 find it anyway they can. Like that's a thing, like 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:22.399 you can still if you miss the Cube, you should 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:24.080 go to ten play and watch it, you know, like 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:26.080