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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers now, regardless of

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Speaker 1: the relationship, the length of the relationship, everything associated with it,

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Speaker 1: excessive phone usage, bias, spouse leads to general frustrations, and

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Speaker 1: it's also linked with serious marital issues.

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Speaker 2: And now here's the stars of our show.

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Speaker 1: My mum and Dad. Before we start today's podcast, Kylie

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Speaker 1: has made me promise that this is not going to

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Speaker 1: be about her. This is about us. In fact, this

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Speaker 1: is just about people. It's about couples. It's not about

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Speaker 1: We're not putting any fingers. Are we really really not

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Speaker 1: pulling any fingers at all? Because this could very much

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Speaker 1: be about me. This has been about me.

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Speaker 2: This things about you.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe. I can't believe that you just put

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Speaker 1: me under the bus. You told me I'm not allowed

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Speaker 1: to put you under the bus, and you literally threw

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Speaker 1: me straight back.

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Speaker 2: They're not putting me under the bus. You just put

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Speaker 2: me under the bus.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe that you're saying this. Gosh, let's talk

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Speaker 1: about it. Have you noticed how long it's been since

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Speaker 1: we've done a doctor's desk.

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Speaker 2: It hasn't been long enough.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you've also noticed that what I

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Speaker 1: keep on doing is I keep on finding these studies

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Speaker 1: and sneakly just making them podcast episodes rather than doing

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Speaker 1: a special doctor's desk episode.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've noticed that.

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Speaker 1: Then we're doing it again today. I'm really excited about it.

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Speaker 1: Brand new study come out just recently from the Institute

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Speaker 1: of Family Studies in the United States. They've combined with

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Speaker 1: the Weekly Institute, done a whole lot of research with

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Speaker 1: two thousand married couples. Today's conversation is about married couples

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Speaker 1: being happy rather than parenting per se. And in the

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Speaker 1: information that they gleaned from these two thousand study participants

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Speaker 1: related to their marital satisfaction in relation to their use

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Speaker 1: of telephones, No.

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Speaker 2: Not telephones, smartphones, okay, fine, on social.

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Speaker 1: Media in terms of their time on screens in front

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Speaker 1: of phones, doing the whole thing. What's it called fubbing? Fubbing,

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Speaker 1: pH ubb ing, fubbing. You're shaking your head. You don't

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Speaker 1: like the idea of fubbing.

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Speaker 2: It displows my mind, all these new words that get creative.

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Speaker 1: So what I's been around for a while. Fubbing literally

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Speaker 1: means prioritizing one's phone, hence the over people, so you're

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Speaker 1: not snubbing them, you're fubbing them. Fubbing really interesting though.

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Speaker 1: Some other research one hundred and forty five adults in

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Speaker 1: this particular research showed that fubbing among romantic partners is

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Speaker 1: associated with greater relationship dissatisfaction, which kind of makes sense, right,

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Speaker 1: If the phone's more interesting than the person you're sitting

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Speaker 1: across the table from, of course the relationship's going to

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Speaker 1: be in the sync. There was a therapist also who

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Speaker 1: I found a quote from. His name is Andrew Soften,

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Speaker 1: who said smartphones have caused more upheval than anything I've

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Speaker 1: seen in my career. This is a twenty five years

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Speaker 1: of practice, therapist. Smartphones have caused more upheaval than anything

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Speaker 1: I've seen in my career. We've normalized, I love this,

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Speaker 1: normalized them being intrusive. We just accept the intrusive nature

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Speaker 1: of it and we don't think twice about it. And

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Speaker 1: he says, and we've normalized them taking precedents when people

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Speaker 1: are lying in bed, playing word or scrolling through TikTok

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Speaker 1: rather than talking to each other.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting, though, when we have these conversations, though they

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Speaker 2: usually centered around our teenagers.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, that's right. Everyone's worry about their kids

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Speaker 1: and their phone use. But there is a massive issue

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Speaker 1: for couples, and that's what we're going to talk about today,

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Speaker 1: the research and what we can do about it. I

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Speaker 1: won't say who this was, but somebody close to us,

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Speaker 1: maybe ten or twelve years ago. This was right on

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Speaker 1: the very verge of when smartphones became ubiquitous, when they

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Speaker 1: were absolutely everywhere. He bought a T shirt for himself

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Speaker 1: and it basically said, I can't remember the exact words,

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Speaker 1: but in big letters it said there's no one I'd

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Speaker 1: rather lay in bed next to while she's on her

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Speaker 1: phone than my wife. And it was just a total

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Speaker 1: slam that they're not together anymore. I might add, because

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Speaker 1: the fubbing was happening ten twelve years ago, I think

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Speaker 1: it's worse. We don't have clear data on that. But

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Speaker 1: should I go through a little bit about what the

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Speaker 1: research has found.

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Speaker 2: I was going to say, shoot, mean, but don't just

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Speaker 2: tell me what to dess.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, So, in a nutshell, thirty seven percent

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Speaker 1: of people said that their spouse is off on the

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Speaker 1: phone when they would prefer to do something or talk

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Speaker 1: as a couple thirty seven percent. So we're talking just

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Speaker 1: over thirty people. I guess I was going to say half,

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Speaker 1: but it's not that many. But it's still a reasonably

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Speaker 1: sized number of people on the phone. I want your attention,

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Speaker 1: can't get it because you're there. Now, here's what's interesting

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Speaker 1: when it gets broken down by demographic, forty four percent

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Speaker 1: of lower income couples but only thirty one percent of

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Speaker 1: higher income couples dealing with this issue. So there seems

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Speaker 1: to be a relationship between education and income and the

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Speaker 1: way phone use interferes with the relationship. Because those who

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Speaker 1: had university degrees were significantly less likely much lower numbers

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Speaker 1: of fubbing or phone interference in the relationship compared to

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Speaker 1: those without a university degree.

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Speaker 2: We see that across the board, there was so many

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Speaker 2: different studies. Education makes such a difference in the way

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Speaker 2: we respond to the world and kind of I guess,

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Speaker 2: utilize what's available to us.

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Speaker 1: I want to be really careful when we say this, though,

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Speaker 1: because this is what we call cross sectional research. We're

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Speaker 1: not saying that if you don't have a university degree,

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Speaker 1: then therefore you're more likely to have a dissatisfying relationship,

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Speaker 1: or you're more likely to use your phone in unhealthy ways.

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Speaker 1: This is not about individuals. This is saying across the board.

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Speaker 1: When you look at things at a population level, on average,

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Speaker 1: that's what happens. There's plenty of very, very very well

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Speaker 1: educated people who use their phones far too much. Well

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Speaker 1: looking at me like that, like, I'm one of those.

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Speaker 1: So sometimes I am one of those people.

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Speaker 2: Right. I'm thinking about the fact that you don't have

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Speaker 2: to have a university degree to be considered an educated person, though,

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Speaker 2: and I think our relationship with learning and education in

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Speaker 2: general changes the way we view the world and we

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Speaker 2: view ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Now's something else about this research as well. Younger couple

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Speaker 1: were more likely to be distracted by their phone in

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Speaker 1: their relationship than older couples, and that also tells.

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Speaker 2: You they've grown up with it. Like when I went

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Speaker 2: to high school, we didn't have laptops. Two years later,

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Speaker 2: my sister ended high school and laptops were a thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, so I didn't.

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Speaker 2: I never learned to like the computers that we were

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Speaker 2: working on. It was the black screen with the green robot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah the stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, I'm I can manage myself around a laptop,

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Speaker 2: but it's.

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Speaker 1: Not No, it's not natural to you, not natural native

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Speaker 1: to this stuff at all.

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Speaker 2: But our children they have grown up with this. So

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Speaker 2: it's no wonder that younger couples are struggling with this

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Speaker 2: because it's just it's been, it's been their life.

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Speaker 1: And it's also worth just remembering what statistics really mean. Right,

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Speaker 1: So less education and less income, you are usually also

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Speaker 1: likely to be younger, right, because as you get older,

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Speaker 1: you tend to have a bit more education and you

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Speaker 1: certainly have a bit more income. So all of these

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Speaker 1: things are correlated. And that's why this research it's interesting

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Speaker 1: and it's informative, but the demographic research is only that.

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Speaker 1: The real meat of this particular research is not in

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Speaker 1: the demographic stuff. It's in what comes next, and that

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Speaker 1: is the relationship between smartphones and marital quality. And what

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Speaker 1: the research is essentially found is that regardless regardless of

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Speaker 1: the relationship, the length of the relationship, everything associated with it,

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Speaker 1: excessive phone usage bias spouse leads to general frustrations and

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Speaker 1: it's also linked with serious marital issues. In fact, couples

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Speaker 1: who deal with excessive phone use. The report says are

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Speaker 1: less happy about their marriage than others. Only about six

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Speaker 1: in ten married adults whose spouse is often on the

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Speaker 1: phone say they're very happy in their marriage. It's over

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Speaker 1: eighty percent more than eight in ten of those who

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Speaker 1: don't struggle with the issue, they're the ones that are saying, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm happy. So there's quite a discrepancy there in terms

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Speaker 1: of relationship satisfaction. It's down when you're on your phone more.

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Speaker 1: It's associated with low marital happiness, and it's also linked

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Speaker 1: with greater worries about divorce, which I thought was quite

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Speaker 1: an interesting finding. The researchers also showed that the more

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Speaker 1: you use your phone, the less likely it is that

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Speaker 1: you're going to go on date nights and have time

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Speaker 1: as a couple. And the more you use your phone

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Speaker 1: or screen, the less intimacy you'll have in your relationship.

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Speaker 1: In some ways, this is all kind of obvious and

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Speaker 1: to be expected. Many people who are listening to this

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Speaker 1: are experiencing it. Just recently, I was an event and

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Speaker 1: we were talking about smartphones and screens in adult relationships,

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Speaker 1: and one of the women in the audience said, I

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Speaker 1: wish my husband was here. We are dealing with this

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Speaker 1: on an every single day basis. I just can't get

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Speaker 1: him off his phone. And it's not just the men.

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Speaker 1: There's plenty of women who are doing the same thing.

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Speaker 1: TikTok and wordle and gaming. They affect people across the board.

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Speaker 2: So it's interesting because as we've had this discussion.

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Speaker 1: Over the years, as you've gotten crank amp me for

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Speaker 1: using my phone too much over.

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Speaker 2: The years, our perception of the other person is often

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Speaker 2: very different from our own perception. Yes, so we we've

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Speaker 2: sat down with the kids numerous times and actually looked

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Speaker 2: at our screen times and had discussions about where we're

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Speaker 2: using our time because.

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Speaker 1: It feels like every time I walk into the room,

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Speaker 1: they're on their damn phone or I'm on my phone.

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Speaker 1: Well you're on your phone, and I'm always saying would

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Speaker 1: you just get off your phone?

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Speaker 2: And then when I pull out my screen time and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, so Facebook, I've only been on Facebook

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Speaker 2: for twenty seven minutes in an entire day, Like it's

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Speaker 2: not And you say to me, so does that mean.

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Speaker 1: Every time single time you've got a Facebook I've walked

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Speaker 1: into the room, You're like, yeah, that's it. Yeah kind

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Speaker 1: of So we need to discuss what we can do

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Speaker 1: about it.

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Speaker 2: Well, we've got four ideas that we can talk about.

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Speaker 1: What's number one, establish rules like actually have a conversation

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Speaker 1: about it and say I want to have a chat

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Speaker 1: with you about our tech use. Is now a good time?

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Speaker 1: No defensiveness, no blaming, just an acknowledgment that we all

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Speaker 1: get stuff wrong from time to time, and I know

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Speaker 1: that I'm having some challenges and I reckon we can

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Speaker 1: probably improve our tech use. Would you be open to

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Speaker 1: having a chat? And if the answer is no, you say,

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Speaker 1: well one would be a good time. But hopefully the

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Speaker 1: answer will be yeah, sure, and then you get to

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Speaker 1: have that chat. You get to say all right, So

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Speaker 1: I just thought we could talk about it because I

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Speaker 1: don't mind you being on your phone, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: your parent, but every and now and again, I really

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Speaker 1: want your attention and I feel like the phone's in

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Speaker 1: the way.

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Speaker 2: So I know in the early days, you'd come home

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Speaker 2: and you'd be in the middle of a conversation because

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Speaker 2: on the drive home you're having your talking to someone.

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Speaker 2: It's workdays continued.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's that spillover is and there for when

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Speaker 1: you would.

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Speaker 2: Come home, I would be expecting your full attention. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I've been with the kids all day. I just need

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Speaker 2: somebody to kind of just have my back, be involved

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Speaker 2: and actually help out. And yet you were still completely

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Speaker 2: in your work brain headspace.

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Speaker 1: It's not just that, but the calls are really important, right,

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Speaker 1: And so if I've got kids making noise or I've

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Speaker 1: got you trying to get my attention, and I'd be

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Speaker 1: holding up my finger saying just one minute, just one minute,

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Speaker 1: and try to assign language to you while I'm saying

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Speaker 1: uh huh aha to this person who's having this important

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Speaker 1: conversation with me. So we established a rule after you

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Speaker 1: explained to me how it felt for you, and the

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Speaker 1: rule was, I'm not allowed to enter the house if

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Speaker 1: I'm still on the phone, full stop, end of story.

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Speaker 1: And so what I started doing was parking in the

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Speaker 1: driveway to finish my phone call. And then you explained

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Speaker 1: that when I get home and I spend twenty minutes

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Speaker 1: sitting in the driveway finishing, it just doesn't feel nice.

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Speaker 1: It's horrible. Everyone's spearing up the window, like does he

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Speaker 1: love people other than us more than he loves us?

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Speaker 1: And so then we decided that I wasn't allowed to

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Speaker 1: pull up in front of the house. If I was,

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Speaker 1: I don't say you were allowed.

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Speaker 2: Oh.

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Speaker 1: We agreed that that was a We recognized.

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Speaker 2: That for both of us. It was trying to trying

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Speaker 2: to find the way that.

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Speaker 1: Works for both of us so that you can feel

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Speaker 1: seen hurt in value, so that you can feel connected

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Speaker 1: to me and you don't feel like you're a secondary priority,

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Speaker 1: which meant that a few times I would drive around

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Speaker 1: the block, like eight or ten times, and so I

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Speaker 1: finally would say to the person I was on the photo,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I've driven around the block ten times because

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Speaker 1: I've got a rule with my wife that I do

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Speaker 1: not sit in the driveway or walk into the house

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Speaker 1: on the phone, And can we finish this tomorrow because

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Speaker 1: I'm wearing out my tires, like I'm using up fuel.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to have to get the car service. I've

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Speaker 1: done so many kilometers around this block, and just that

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Speaker 1: one rule made a huge difference. Huge.

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Speaker 2: But we also have a rule that we don't have

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Speaker 2: phones at the table. Yep, so doesn't matter teenage is adults.

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Speaker 2: There's no phones at the table. Every now and again

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Speaker 2: we'll get a phone call, and sometimes it's just it's

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Speaker 2: a blanket rule. Nope, we're not answering.

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Speaker 1: I remember went back in the olden days before mobile phones, okay,

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Speaker 1: and there was just the rotary phone on the wall,

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Speaker 1: and the phone would ring during dinner and my dad

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Speaker 1: would say, don't answer it. Like it was just you

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Speaker 1: don't pick up the phone when there's a meal. And

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Speaker 1: that doesn't seem to have carried over so much. There's

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Speaker 1: phones at the table too much, So I think that

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Speaker 1: it's good to not have phones at the table. We

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Speaker 1: struggle with this one, but I'm going to put it

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Speaker 1: out there. No phones in the bedroom. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that phones in the bedroom serve the relationship. When you're

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Speaker 1: in the bedroom, it's best if you're in there because

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Speaker 1: you want to be together or because you're going to sleep.

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Speaker 2: So the challenge, I mean, the challenge we have is

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Speaker 2: the fact that for most people, your phone is everything right,

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Speaker 2: it's your alarm clock, It's got all the information in it.

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Speaker 2: Now I don't ever have my phone on at night time,

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Speaker 2: but we've got a baby coming in the next few

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Speaker 2: weeks and I've got to have it on. I want

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Speaker 2: to know when things are happening.

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Speaker 1: But you can still have the phone out of the bedroom. Right,

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Speaker 1: you can have the phone out of the bedroom. Go

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Speaker 1: and buy an alarm clock, don't link it to the phone.

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Speaker 1: And if the phone rings outside in the kitchen and

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Speaker 1: you know there's a baby coming tomorrow night, you're going

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Speaker 1: to wake up when the phone rings, right, you can

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Speaker 1: go and do it.

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Speaker 2: When did you wake up last?

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Speaker 1: Let's move on to our second thing. So other other

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Speaker 1: than rules, no phones at the table, no phones during

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Speaker 1: family time, no phones during a couple of time. No

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Speaker 1: phones in the bedroom, no phone when you're entering the house.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's a really big one. You've just kind

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Speaker 2: of blanketed over it, but it's a huge one. When

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Speaker 2: we're go on a date, you and I have stopped

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Speaker 2: taking our phones. And again it's a little bit tricky.

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Speaker 2: You've got young kids at home and you want to

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Speaker 2: kind of check in. But do you know what if

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Speaker 2: you can't have just an hour, the kids are going

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Speaker 2: to be okay. Grandma's got them, Auntie's got them, whoever's

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Speaker 2: got them, it's going to be okay. It's really important

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Speaker 2: that you put your relationship first.

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Speaker 1: Okay. The second thing is we've got to communicate intentions.

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Speaker 1: This is a really big one for me. So when

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Speaker 1: you pick up your phone and I'm expecting your attention,

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Speaker 1: sometimes I don't respond quite as well as you might

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Speaker 1: like me to. And we've worked out that the best

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Speaker 1: thing to do is, actually, you don't need my permission,

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Speaker 1: and I don't need your permission to use the phone.

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Speaker 1: But if I pick up my phone and I say

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Speaker 1: to you, honey, I know that we're not doing phones

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Speaker 1: just now, but I just remembered this very important thing,

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Speaker 1: I explain what it is to you, and then I'll say,

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Speaker 1: do you mind if I just take care of this?

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Speaker 1: Like you've never said no to me, and like I

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Speaker 1: would never say no to you, But it's just it's

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Speaker 1: a courtesy. It's saying I acknowledge that you're here, I

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Speaker 1: acknowledge what time it is that we're supposed to be

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Speaker 1: spending together. If it weren't for this urgent matter that

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Speaker 1: I've just remembered, I would leave the phone alone. But

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Speaker 1: I'm only going to be four minutes and then I'll

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Speaker 1: be back with you. Just communicating your intentions makes a

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Speaker 1: huge difference.

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Speaker 2: But on the other hand, there's been a few times

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Speaker 2: where we've actually either one of us has said, you know,

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Speaker 2: what could you do? That a little bit later. Right now,

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Speaker 2: what we're doing is important.

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Speaker 1: And you mean you've said that to me. I don't

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Speaker 1: think that I say that to you very often. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you have, maybe I do.

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Speaker 2: Nothing one or two one or two times. But I think,

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Speaker 2: like you said, it's about being courteous and respectful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's not about not actually about getting permission,

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Speaker 1: although sometimes you need it, but it's really it's really

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Speaker 1: just that courtesy and recognizing another person. The third thing

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Speaker 1: date nights. I mean, you've just mentioned it, so we've

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Speaker 1: kind of we can cross that one off really quickly.

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Speaker 1: But we just don't take our phones on date nights

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Speaker 1: because we want to be present for one another. It

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Speaker 1: makes a big difference. And the last thing, which is

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Speaker 1: really what I want you to talk about, is we've

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Speaker 1: agreed that even though we've got all these agreements in

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Speaker 1: place about the way we use our phones, we don't

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Speaker 1: keep tabs on each other, don't act like we're the police.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think this is really important because you're you're

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Speaker 2: not my mum, you're not my dad, you're my husband,

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Speaker 2: and we're an equal partnership. And as a result, as

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Speaker 2: soon as you start saying, hey, we made this commitment

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Speaker 2: and you're breaking it. There's an unequal distribution of power

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Speaker 2: in the relationship. I now feel like I'm a little

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Speaker 2: kid and I'm being kind of pulled to task over.

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Speaker 2: So the best thing that you can do in a situation,

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Speaker 2: if you feel like you've had these discussions and things

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Speaker 2: are kind of just not working out Sunday meetings, this

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Speaker 2: is the perfect time to say, hey, let's have let's

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Speaker 2: check in. How are we going with our technology discussion

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Speaker 2: and decisions that we made around that. How do you

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Speaker 2: feel like this week's gone. It's not even about putting

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Speaker 2: it on them. It's about having an open discussion because

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Speaker 2: his perception and your perception, or your perception and her

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Speaker 2: perception are going to be completely different. They always are,

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Speaker 2: and so it's about how do we find them so

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Speaker 2: that we can actually feel like, where do I know? Okay?

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Speaker 1: In this area, time on smartphones can interfere with marital

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Speaker 1: and relationship satisfaction. The evidence is there, even though it's

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Speaker 1: fairly scant and skinny at the moment.

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Speaker 2: That's got to be more exciting things to do.

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Speaker 1: I think that there are definitely more exciting things to do.

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Speaker 1: That's all I'm going to say. We really hope though,

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Speaker 1: that there's some ideas that we shared with you that

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Speaker 1: will create some useful conversations. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: listening to the Happy Families Podcast. We know that there's

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Speaker 1: a bunch of other things that you could be doing,

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Speaker 1: and we so appreciate that you give us some time

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Speaker 1: and focus on your smartphone while you're trying to make

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Speaker 1: your family happier. The Happy Family Podcast is produced by

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Speaker 1: Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer.

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Speaker 1: For more information about how to make your family happier,

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Speaker 1: please visit us at happy families dot com dot AU

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Speaker 1: and one more quick thing this Thursday. This Thursday, it's

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Speaker 1: that smells like teens some If you don't have your

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Speaker 1: tickets yet, only a couple of days to go grab

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Speaker 1: them at happy families dot com dot A