1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Today's episode contains details of image based abuse and intimate 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: partner violence. If that raises any issues for you, you 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: can join us again tomorrow or reach out for help 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: at one eight hundred respect that's one eight hundred seven 5 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: three seven seven three to two already And this this 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: is the Daily Art. This is the Daily OS. Oh, 7 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: now it makes sense. Good morning, and welcome to the 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: Daily OS. It's Wednesday, the twenty fifth of March. 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 2: I'm Lucy Tassel, I'm Emma Gillespie. 10 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: Today we're bringing you a story out of Germany, and 11 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: unless you are particularly tapped into German culture, it's unlikely 12 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: you will have heard of any of the people involved before. 13 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: But we think it's worth bringing to you, even though 14 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: it also includes distressing details, because this is a story 15 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: that could have happened anywhere to anyone, and that's because 16 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: it involves sexual ai deep fakes. In today's episode, we're 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: going to unpack the deep fake scandal engulfing German media. 18 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 2: Lucy, you came into the office on Monday this week 19 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 2: really eager to pitch this story and we had a 20 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 2: fascinating conversation with most of the office. Yeah, it's got 21 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: so many layers and is such an interesting and important one. 22 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: But how did this even come across your desk? Are 23 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 2: you into German TV or something at the moment? Where 24 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 2: did you find this? 25 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: No, I'm not into German TV. It was honestly kind 26 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: of random. I was just on Reddit on the weekend 27 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: and I was looking at the pop culture chat subreddit 28 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: and the top post on Saturday Australian Time really caught 29 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: my eye. And that's because it said this is a 30 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: celebrity scandal from Germany that deserves international attention. So I 31 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, what is it? And I click through 32 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: and it's an article from the German publication Despiegel and 33 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: this poster who's posted it to Reddit said this is 34 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: the digital version of Gazelle Pellico. 35 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 2: Wow. Now, we talked about the case of Gazelle Pellico 36 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 2: pretty extensively on the podcast on the Instagram feed, but 37 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 2: for those who might be out of the loop and 38 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 2: might not remember, can you give us a quick refresher 39 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 2: on Gizelle Pellico. 40 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, Gizelle Pellico is a woman who was raped 41 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: extensively by her now former husband Dominique and fifty other 42 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: men that he had invited to rape her over the years. 43 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: This was facilitated by the fact that her now ex 44 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: husband was drugging her basically every night, and yeah, inviting 45 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: people from online from online forums. Dominique Pelico is now 46 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: in prison, as are the fifty other men convicted of 47 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: raping Gizelle Pellico. The key thing to know about it 48 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: for this story is that Gizelle Pellico had a right 49 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: to remain anonymous during Dominique's trial, but she waived that 50 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: right and she said that was because quote, shame needs 51 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: to change sides from victims to perpetrators of sexual violence. 52 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: And that is something that inspired the woman at the 53 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: center of the case we're talking about today. 54 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that case really captured the global media sphere. 55 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: It captured so much interest and attention, and Gazelle Pelico 56 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: herself really became this symbol of a shifting discourse. So 57 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 2: let's get into the story you're telling us about today. 58 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 2: It's not out of France, as Gazelle's story, it's out 59 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 2: of Germany. Who are the people involved? What is the 60 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 2: connection to sexual deep fakes? 61 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: So the two people involved are a former couple of 62 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: TV presenters, actors, writers, directors, both of them many strings 63 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: to their bow. So we have Colleen Fernandez and her 64 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: now ex husband, Christiane Ulman. So these two were married 65 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: for fifteen years. They got divorced in twenty twenty five. 66 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: They worked together a lot as a couple, so Ullman 67 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: is known as a comedian. He had a very popular 68 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: TV show where Fernandez played his fictional ex wife. They 69 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: also did ads together. So there's an ad campaign of 70 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: them advertising a German pharmacy chain where it's like the 71 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: joke of the ad is that they're in bed together. 72 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: So a really recognizable couple in German media across film, 73 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 2: TV advertising, and they were known as not just individual identities, 74 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: but as their brand as a couple. 75 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactually sort of. It's hard to find an exact comparison, 76 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: but I guess like Hamish Blake and Zoe Foster Blake. 77 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: Where okay, these two people both successful in their own 78 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: right but also marketable as a couple. 79 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 2: Yes, super famous as a couple and celebrated as a couple. 80 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: But then they get divorced. Okay, And now Fernandez is 81 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: the subject of this major article in a very well 82 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 1: respected German publication, Don't Speak All. She's the cover story. Essentially, 83 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: Fernandez tells this team of journalists she was informed a 84 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: few years ago by a family member that she appeared 85 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: to be in a pawn video where she was depicted 86 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: having sex with several men. This was about five years ago. 87 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: So this is the very early stages of what we 88 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: now know as deep fakes, which are fake images which 89 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: appear to depict someone doing something they never actually did. 90 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember those earlier days of deep fakes, and 91 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 2: we started to see this quite disturbing vision surface which 92 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 2: looked like celebrity faces superimposed on pre existing footage or 93 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 2: bodies from other pornographic content. 94 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 95 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: So that was the early iteration of what we now 96 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: understand to be deep fakes. Based on the fact that 97 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 2: you're telling me about this story today and Colleen Fernandez, 98 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: am I right in assuming that the video that her 99 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 2: family member saw wasn't the only one. 100 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: It was not the only one. There have been many, many, 101 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: many faked images and videos of this woman. Colleen Fernandez 102 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: and her lawyers tried to have them taken down, unsuccessfully. 103 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 1: So that's one aspect this story. The other aspect of 104 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: this story is that a couple of years later, after 105 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: she was first alerted to those videos, she found out 106 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: that they were fake accounts purporting to be her. Right, 107 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: And she has made an Instagram post last week in 108 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: addition to the Dr Spiegel article where she got into 109 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: some more details. And I think it's kind of the 110 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: best way to explain it is in her words, she said, 111 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: a few years ago, she was having lunch with a 112 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: producer in the TV industry, who, she says, quote brought 113 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: up our conversation, so that those quotes, that's her addition, 114 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: and that's when she discovered there were these fake accounts 115 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: purporting to be her online conducting sexual relationships on her 116 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: behalf with as many as thirty men. 117 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 2: Wow. So someone she actually knew had lunch with her 118 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 2: and referenced a chat that he had had with her. Yeah, 119 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: that had never happened because it was on a fake account. Yeah. 120 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: And so yeah, as I've said, these people that were 121 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: having these relationships with the fake accounts reported to be 122 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: included her TV industry colleagues in Germany. Yeah. In her 123 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: Instagram posts, she said, quote, for years, fake profiles were 124 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: created in my name, closely networked within my professional circle, 125 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: and primarily contacted men. After initially normal conversations, things became 126 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: more flirtatious. The person sent fake nude photos and sex 127 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: videos of me, designed to appear as if I had 128 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: taken the photos myself and secretly filmed myself having sex. 129 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: The conversation then usually moved to email addresses using my name. 130 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: The person spoke to the men on the phone using 131 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: a generated voice. Eventually this progressed to phone sex. This 132 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: entire scheme continued for over ten years. During this time, 133 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: I sent hundreds of men nude photos and sex videos 134 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: of myself, my naked crutch, my naked body. People in 135 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: the industry believed I was actually behind it. 136 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 2: So these must have been really sophisticated accounts, Lucy, because 137 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: we come across fake instagrams, particularly of celebrity profiles, every 138 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: day online, but there are usually some pretty big signifiers 139 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: that those accounts are fake. I'm assuming for Fernandez to 140 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: have learned about this through people she actually knew personally 141 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 2: who were actually fooled by them, and the length of 142 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 2: time that these quote unquote relationships seemed to continue for yeah, 143 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 2: that it was more than that. It was a sophisticated operation. 144 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: That's how it seems to be. And of course these 145 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: are all allegations, but so This is sort of her allegation. 146 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: It will be tested in court, but it hasn't been yet. 147 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 2: So what did she do once she learned all of 148 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 2: this about all these fake accounts. 149 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, so she knew that there were these fake accounts, 150 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 1: and she already knew that there were these fake images 151 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: of her in like non consensual sexual images. Right, So 152 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: she got involved in activism. She campaigned to change the 153 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: law in Germany to better protect people from non consensual 154 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: explicit deep fakes. She also co produced and appeared in 155 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: a two part documentary in twenty twenty five investigating these 156 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: deep fakes. The documentary gets into the impact these images 157 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: and videos have had on her, and it talks about 158 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: the fact that they're widespread and they're hard to take down. 159 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: At the end of the documentary, she goes into a 160 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: police station to make a report, and then she comes 161 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: out and she says, they're not sure what they can do, 162 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: but I feel better for having made the report. That 163 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: was the end of twenty twenty four when that scene 164 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: was filmed in the documentary. The following year, Fernandez announces 165 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: she and her husband, Christian Ullman are getting a divorce 166 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,599 Speaker 1: and we don't know any other details. 167 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 2: Lucy, I feel that we're building up to a very 168 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 2: crucial part in this story. I want to hear all 169 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: about it. But first we're going to take you to 170 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 2: a quick message from today's sponsor. Okay, so, Lucy, just 171 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 2: to recap, We've got this German TV presenter whose face, 172 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 2: her likeness is being used across multiple fake profiles over 173 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 2: I think you said a decade she is having a 174 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: with people that she knows, but of course she doesn't 175 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: know about these. There are all these sexualized images of 176 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 2: her being shared and shared widely. She becomes an activist, 177 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 2: an advocate, a voice for women who are subjected to 178 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 2: similar attacks. She files a police report. The following year, 179 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 2: she gets a divorce. Then we get to March, Australia 180 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 2: twenty twenty six. That's a Reddit user by the name 181 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 2: of Lucy Tassel Yes, stumbles upon this story. You see 182 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 2: a post from a German pop culture fan with a 183 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 2: link to this big story about Fernandez in that magazine 184 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 2: that you mentioned. So, what is the new piece of 185 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 2: information here? What did that interview unveil that we didn't 186 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 2: previously know? 187 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the major revelation of the piece and also 188 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: that Instagram post that I mentioned is that Fernandez alleges 189 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: it was her now ex husband, Christian Ullman, who was 190 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: behind the fake accounts. Wow, not behind the images and 191 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: the deep fakes online like the widespread ones, but in 192 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: terms of running the fake accounts, that's her allegation. She 193 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: alleges that on Christmas Day twenty twenty four, she is 194 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: back in Germany with Allmond. They have lived in Spain 195 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: for a couple of years. She says they're at a 196 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: hotel on Christmas Day and Allman starts asking her about 197 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 1: an interview that she's done about filing a police report. 198 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: So remember I just said at the end of this 199 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: documentary she files one and they're both public figures. So 200 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: I guess he's read this interview with his wife and 201 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: he asks her about it that she's filed the police report, 202 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: and she says at that moment her husband confessed to 203 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: her quote I did it, basically saying I made the 204 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: fake profiles. I use them to give people the impression 205 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: they were having an online affair with you. I used 206 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: an AI voice to have phone sex with people, and 207 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: I sent fake videos and photos of you from the Internet. 208 00:11:55,240 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 2: So, per these allegations, this man basically cat ish a 209 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 2: string of people in his wife's network. 210 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, as his own wife. 211 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 2: As his own wife. But these are allegations, we have 212 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 2: to say. Fernandez claims that her husband confessed to her, 213 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: but they haven't been tested in court. 214 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: They will be tested in court, but they haven't been yet. 215 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: And Ullman did not provide comments to the German magazine. 216 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 2: So we don't know how he's playing. 217 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't know yet, and he hasn't made any 218 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: public comment on her subsequent Instagram post, where she also 219 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: says basically the same thing, that it was my husband 220 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: the whole time. 221 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, there is so much to process and unpack in 222 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 2: this story. I'm interested to hear if Fernandez revealed or 223 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: gave any insight into her relationship, and if she felt 224 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 2: anything was wrong at the time, if she knew that 225 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 2: her husband was orchestrating anything of this nature behind her back. 226 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 1: She had no idea, but the relationship had been physically abusive, 227 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: So she outlines physical abuse from her husband to her 228 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: over years in Germany and Spain, including a time when 229 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: she tried to escape him by opening the windows of 230 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: their Spanish department and screaming into the street for help. 231 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: She didn't end up pressing charges after that incident, she 232 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: told dors big Or that's because she didn't want to 233 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: break up her family. The couple have a daughter together, okay, 234 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: and they have since got divorced, and she has pressed 235 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: charges over the online kind of sexual catfishing in Spain, 236 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: and that's because not only because they lived there, but 237 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: also because German law is not as strict in this 238 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: department as Spanish law is. 239 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 2: Okay, that's so interesting. I think we're seeing around the 240 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: world so many different governments and countries trying to update 241 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 2: the legislation or keep in line or keep pace with 242 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 2: how this world has evolved so rapidly in just a 243 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 2: short amount of time. Since Vernandas went public with this story, 244 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 2: what has the response been like, has anything changed? 245 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the German Justice Minister has said the government's 246 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: going to move really fast to criminalize all deep fakes, 247 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: not just sexual ones, not just non consensual ones. So 248 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: there is kind of a silver lining there that this 249 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: was inspired by Fernandez going public with these allegations. 250 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: And maybe we'll see legal proceedings in both Spain and 251 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 2: Germany possibly. 252 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Ullmand's previous collaborators have distanced themselves from him, 253 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: and his most recent TV show has been pulled from 254 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: German streaming services. 255 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: Before we wrap up, Lucy, I'm curious to hear what 256 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: Australian legislation looks like in relation to this kind of 257 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 2: a story, Like if this happened here, Yeah, would there 258 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 2: be similar legal consequences? 259 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, I mean it's entirely possible that this could 260 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: happen here. I mean everyone has access to particular AI 261 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: tools that are on the Internet. At the federal level, 262 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: it is illegal to share sexually explicit deep fakes without 263 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: can That's been the case since last year. Several states 264 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: are also taking steps. So here in New South Wales, 265 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: where we're recording this, it's illegal to distribute sexually explicit 266 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: deep fakes without consent, and fake audio comes under that 267 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: law as well as well as some other protections. So 268 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: I would say there's pretty strict protections in Australia, but 269 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: there's probably more that could be done in that space. 270 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: I think the distribution point is really interesting because in 271 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: this case, Fernandez is now ex husband claims that he 272 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 2: didn't create the material, but even by distributing it, you know, 273 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 2: that's a whole other conversation with separate ramifications, Lucy, a fascinating, 274 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 2: disturbing story. I'm really interested to see how the world 275 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 2: reacts to this one, if you will see a similar 276 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 2: movement like we saw the groundswell of support Vigizel Pelico. Regardless, though, 277 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 2: a very important conversation, and thank you for taking us 278 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 2: through it. 279 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: Thanks Emma, thank. 280 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 2: You for listening to today's episode. That's all we've got 281 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 2: for you this morning, but we will be back a 282 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 2: little later on with your evening news headlines and soil. 283 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 2: Then have a good day. 284 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 285 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: Bunjelung Calkatin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 286 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 287 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest 288 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: Rate island and nations. We pay our respects to the 289 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.