1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:02,520 Speaker 1: I'm not a big believer in willpower. I think when 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: you start having to use willpower, you're already losing the game. 3 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: What I do is is you reconstruct the environment. 4 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 5 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 6 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imbac. I'm an 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,319 Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: finding ways to optimize my workday. My guest today is 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 2: Dan Pink. Dan is the author of six best selling books, 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 2: including Drive, a Whole New Mind, and his latest book When, 11 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 2: the Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing, which also happens to 12 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 2: have spent four months on the New York Times bestseller list. 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 2: You might also be familiar with Dan through his ted 14 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 2: talk about the Surprising Science of Motivation, which has been 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 2: viewed over twenty million times now. I'm a big Dan 16 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: Pink fan, so I was very excited to be able 17 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: to chat with him. I think he has such a 18 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 2: knack for dissecting conflict science and finding a way to 19 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 2: make it not just accessible, but memorable and impactful for 20 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 2: his readers. My chat with Dan starts with hearing more 21 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 2: about his process for writing books, and then we also 22 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,759 Speaker 2: chat about how he completely restructured his work day based 23 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 2: on the research that he'd uncovered when writing his latest 24 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: book When So on that note over to Dan to 25 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 2: find out about how he works. Dan, Welcome to the show. 26 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: Thanks for having Memantha. Good to be here. 27 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 2: Now. I want to start with your books, because you've 28 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 2: written six books over around the last twenty or so years, 29 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 2: and I want to start by understanding where do your 30 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 2: book ideas come from? And maybe if you can talk 31 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: me through how your latest book, When came to be? 32 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: Right, Well, i'll start with the second question first. This 33 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: latest book When came to be largely out of frustration. 34 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: I was making off kinds of timing decisions in my 35 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: own life, and you know, everything from when in the 36 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: day should I exercise, when should I do my writing, 37 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,119 Speaker 1: and even more episodic things like when should I start 38 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: a project? When should I abandon a project if that's 39 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: not working. I was making these decisions in a very haphazard, 40 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: ill informed way, which frustrated me. I wanted to make 41 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: them in a more intelligent way, so I looked around 42 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: for guidance. It didn't exist. And then I started looking 43 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: around at the science, not even looking around, just wondering 44 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: whether there was any science, and it turned out there 45 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: was a lot of science on this topic. And that's 46 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: how I got into that. Now that the genesis of 47 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: this book is a little bit different from what often happens, 48 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: which is that I have files of ideas. And when 49 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: I say ideas, they're barely even ideas. They're just shards 50 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: of stuff. And so I will keep them in paper folders, 51 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: I will keep them in dropbox, I will keep them 52 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: in email folders. I will keep them. I will use 53 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: ever note, and I return to these things, you know, 54 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 1: every few months, sift through, and I always have a 55 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: running list of ideas of stuff I want to work on. 56 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: And when I return to a lot of these ideas, 57 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 1: they a lot of the ideas stink. So I get 58 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: rid of those, and it's just a constant churn. And 59 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: my view is that in order to have a good idea, 60 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: you have to have a lot of ideas. And when 61 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: you have a lot of ideas, you have a lot 62 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: of bad ideas. And I have a lot of bad ideas. 63 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: How do you know whether an idea is good or 64 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: whether it stinks? 65 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: Great question. I'm not sure. I don't I wish there 66 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: were some kind of blood tests something definitive like that, 67 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: but but there is not. Some of it is. It's 68 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: actually a very interesting question on a number of different dimensions. 69 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: So part of it has to do with you know, 70 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: your own taste, and I think in any kind of 71 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: creative endeavor, people develop taste and and so something and 72 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: you say, well, you know what, that's not my taste. 73 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: My intuitive sense of of taste says this is not 74 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: quite right. So that's one thing. Second thing would be, 75 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: is this something I really want to work on? And 76 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: a lot of times something that seems really alluring at 77 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: first turns out to be deadening when you explore a 78 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: little bit more. And then another one would be, I, like, 79 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: you know, talking to people about various ideas that I have, 80 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: just to hear how they react to it. And the 81 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 1: reaction that I find most useful is not that's a 82 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: terrible idea, that's a good idea. But huh, that's interesting. 83 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: Have you thought about X, Y, or Z and so 84 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:42,799 Speaker 1: something that engages people enough to ask a question? 85 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: And so with your book, when how did you know 86 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 2: or when did you know that you were really onto 87 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: something with that. 88 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: Well, one of the things that I do is I 89 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: it's another really good question. One of the things that 90 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: I do when I develop a book is that I 91 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: always write a book proposal. Now, typically when writers are 92 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 1: just starting out, they do book proposals as you know, 93 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: as there have more work behind them, they need less 94 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: elaborate proposals. Topic Often for me, I like writing book 95 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: proposals because it's a test of an idea. And so 96 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: there have been many times when I said, hey, here's 97 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: an idea. It's survived over a couple of years on 98 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: the list, I've marshaled some research. Hey, this research looks 99 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: pretty good, and then I'll start writing a book proposal. 100 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: And a book proposal is, you know, not a complicated document. 101 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: It basically says, here's what this book is about. Here's 102 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: where it fits into the whole ecosystem of ideas. Here 103 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: is why I'm the perfect person to write it. Here, 104 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: who's here are the people who are going to be 105 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: interested in a book like this, et cetera, et cetera. 106 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: And there have been many times when I thought I 107 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: had a good idea and I started writing the book 108 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: proposal and I was like, no, this is not a 109 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: good idea. It didn't hang together with when. It was 110 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 1: one of the few book proposals that I've written where 111 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: it just was like butter, It just smooth and creamy 112 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: all the way through. And that's how I knew that 113 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: I was onto a pretty good idea. 114 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 2: Ah. I like that. I mean, book proposals are almost 115 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: like the business case of the writer's world. 116 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: I guess absolutely they are more like You're totally right, 117 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: They're more like a business plan than a literary product. 118 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. And when you first released When, which I think 119 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 2: was about a year ago, and I read it from 120 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 2: memory like a few days after it had come out, 121 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 2: I thought it was just such a brilliant idea for 122 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 2: a book. And I feel like I remember you. I 123 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 2: reel like I remember you talking in an interview quite 124 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 2: a few months ago where When was quite hard to 125 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: structure in that you went through a lot of different 126 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: drafts of the table of contests. Can you talk me 127 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 2: through what that process was like and how you did 128 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:01,679 Speaker 2: land on the final structure for the book? 129 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, it's you know, I'm a big believe 130 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: when it comes to book nonfiction books. I think the 131 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: same thing is true with fiction I'm a big believer 132 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: in structure. Structure solves a lot of problems, structure makes 133 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: structure helps out readers, and structure gives you a sense 134 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: of whether what you have has integrity. And I tried 135 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: a couple of approaches to structuring the book. I knew 136 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: there are certain like big elements that I wanted in there, 137 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: but I wasn't sure. And so I went through several 138 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe fifteen or so, as you say, 139 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: draft table of contents, just to feel how it all, 140 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: to feel how it all hung together. And I just 141 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: had a sense and again it goes back to one 142 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: of your early questions that this is just not quite right. 143 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: And once again I would bounce it off of other people, 144 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: not a huge our people, but I would say, hey, 145 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: what do you think of this? What do you think 146 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: of that? And you know, and I wanted to see 147 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: how other people responded. And I think I began simply saying, Okay, 148 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: you know what I'm going to do. I know this 149 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: is a chapter, so let me write this chapter and 150 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: then put the total structure aside. But over time, if 151 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: you just keep coming back to it, and keep coming 152 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: back to it, and keep coming back to it. You 153 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: will find a the material in some ways will tell 154 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: you what the structure is. But again, not everybody agrees 155 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: with me, not everybody agrees with them. But I think 156 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: structure matters enormously, and I see too many books out 157 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: there that are poorly constructed, wobbly, and I think it 158 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: makes it harder for readers to enjoy the book and 159 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: get something from the ideas presented in it. 160 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,439 Speaker 2: Couldn't agree more. And I really like the structure that 161 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 2: you landed on. I feel like it's not like with 162 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 2: some books you read them and it's and it's a 163 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 2: pretty intuitive structure. You kind of go, well, of course 164 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: it's structured that way. But but I like where you 165 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 2: landed with when I feel like it's not the most 166 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: intuitive structure, but it works really well in terms of 167 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,719 Speaker 2: I guess, constructing the arguments. Yeah, and I want to 168 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 2: talk about the title as well, for when and how 169 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 2: how did the title come to you? 170 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: This is one of those titles are hard and I've 171 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: always I've wrestled with titles for various books that I've 172 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: I've that I've worked on a lot. I mean, titles 173 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: are you know, mostly art, maybe is a little bit 174 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: of science, and I've changed, and a lot of times 175 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: I've had books that start out with one title, and 176 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: then as the research and writing goes on, the title changes, 177 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: and the changes again, and changes again, changes again. This 178 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: one actually had the same title in the proposal as 179 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: it did in the final cover. The book was always 180 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: called When. I'm not sure why that one held up. 181 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: Whereas other books that I've had have changed their titles 182 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: a lot, and we have wrestled with them. Now what now? 183 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: Occasionally now authors and publishers will do some testing, some 184 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: market testing of titles, and you know, I'm, I'm that 185 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: can be a good idea many in many cases. But 186 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: but I have I have wrestled with I have wrestled 187 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: with things. And sometimes when I go back to the 188 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: both the paper and electronic files of other books, I forget. 189 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: I don't find them. You know. I look at a 190 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: book called you know, I wrote a book called Drive 191 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: about the Signs of Motivation, and that book was not 192 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: called Drive until very close to the end. And so 193 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: all my files are labeled something else, you know, because 194 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: that's what, you know, whatever the title was back then. 195 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: So titles are titles are Titles are tricky, And what 196 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 1: I have found is that I'm much better. Is a 197 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: common attribute of problem solving? Is it? Sometimes we're better 198 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: off solving other people's problems than our own. I'm pretty 199 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: good at coming up with titles for other people. I 200 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: stink it coming up with titles for myself. 201 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 2: And I actually wanted to delve into that. I remember 202 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 2: when I read Give and Take by Adam Grant, reading 203 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 2: in the acknowledgments that he'd thanked you for coming up 204 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 2: with the title for that book, and and so, what 205 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: is that process like when you're advising someone on a title. 206 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: That's some careful reading of acknowledgments there. 207 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 2: I love the acknowledgment sections of books. 208 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: Yes, so do I I actually love them too. I'm sorry, 209 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:35,839 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. What was the question? 210 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: I want to know? 211 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: Like, what's the process that we forgotten? Now? I was 212 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: amazed that someone had read book. 213 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 2: I feel like writers love the acknowledgment section, and being 214 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,719 Speaker 2: a writer, I love that section. I feel like it 215 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 2: gives you interesting insight. But yeah, with Adam Grant's book 216 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: Give and Take, he said that he credits you with 217 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: coming up for the title. And I don't know if 218 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 2: you remember how how how you did that or how 219 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: that process works for you. 220 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: I do remember that particular incident because I live in 221 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: I live in the east coast of the United States, Washington, 222 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 1: d C. The federal capital of the United States of America, 223 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: and I have been self employed for twenty years, and 224 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: because I am a staunch believer in low overhead, I 225 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: have never had an office outside of my home, and 226 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: these days, for the last eight years or so, eight 227 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: plus years, I have worked in the garage behind my 228 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: house and whenever this was now probably seven years ago 229 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: or so, I'd gotten to know Adam, and he came 230 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: over and we were talking about the idea of this 231 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: particular book that he was contemplating writing, and I thought 232 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: it was great. I thought it was a great topic. 233 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: I thought he'd be a great person to write it. 234 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 1: It's a book that I absolutely like. At that moment 235 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: I wanted to read, so I was really excited about it. 236 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: And for whatever reason, I said, hey, I think this 237 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: is your title ended up being the title. 238 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 2: So wow. 239 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 1: I guess I was inspired by I was inspired by 240 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: his excellent idea, I think, and I also, I guess 241 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: in some part of me wanted to help make this 242 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: book come to fruition. So I could read it. 243 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 2: Hmmm, and did that did that spark of inspiration just 244 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 2: come to you or were you thinking I guess of 245 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,359 Speaker 2: you know, different phrases that were in like the vernacular. 246 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: Do you remember how that happened? 247 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: I don't remember that well enough. But see, I actually 248 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: liked trying to come up with titles and because yeah, 249 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: it's I just think it's a really interesting exercise and 250 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: thinking in creativity. But it's one where if I'm not 251 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: integrally involved, I probably do it a little bit better 252 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: than if it's something that has that's something that has 253 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: my name on it. 254 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: And so what's your starting point for that? Like, you know, 255 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 2: if you were to give advice to a writer who's 256 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 2: struggling with the title of their book, like what what 257 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 2: kind of roots would you recommend that they explore? 258 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: What I would that's another really interesting question. What I 259 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: would suggest would be I'll tell you what I do. 260 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: What I listen for when someone comes to me with 261 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: this issue is I want to hear how they talk 262 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: about it, and I want to ask them questions about it, 263 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: and I want to look for phrases, words turns of 264 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: phrase that somehow seem fresh and novel and interesting and 265 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: make me want to explore. And again, there's probably a 266 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: way if I were to completely reconstruct this kind of advice, 267 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: it would be a little bit more systematic than that. 268 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: But I think there's something to be said when it 269 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: comes to titles for talking about your stuff out loud, 270 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: not giving a speech or anything, but just telling your 271 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: friend or your spouse or another writer, Hey, what are 272 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: you working? Oh, it's about this, that and the other thing. 273 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: And a lot of times within that description there'll be 274 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: a word or phrase that's seems really delicious and you 275 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: just take that piece of fruit up the vine. 276 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: Oh I like that. That's that's nice. And I think 277 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: good advice for anyone that's thinking about naming any kind 278 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 2: of a project, whether it be a book or something else. 279 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's also there's also a there's also something 280 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: to be said for generating a lot of ideas for names. 281 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: So and so, one thing that you can do for 282 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: generating titles is just, you know, get three or four 283 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: people together and say, okay, we are going to generate. 284 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: We're going to sit here for half an hour and 285 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: we're going to come up with sixty possible titles. And 286 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: you just start like spitting things out and building up 287 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: of other people's ideas. And out of that's sixty, you know, 288 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: fifty of them are going to be horrible ideas, but 289 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: within that remaining ten one of them might be decent. Mmmm. 290 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. I want to move on to to understanding, like 291 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 2: what are some of the practical strategies that you apply 292 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 2: in your own working life? And I imagine that like 293 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 2: writing a book like When, which I feel well is 294 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 2: full of really interesting ideas but also is incredibly practical, 295 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 2: and there's a lot of really tactical advice in the book, 296 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 2: which I love. Like, what have been some of I guess, 297 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: you know, out of When, or out of any of 298 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 2: the research that you've done, all the books that you've written, 299 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: have been sort of the most impactful I guess, tactical 300 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: things that you've changed about how you work and how 301 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 2: you work currently in my own life. 302 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, I mean When had a lot of those. So, 303 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: for instance, one of the ideas in When has to 304 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: do with the pattern of our performance and our attention 305 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: and our mood over the course of a day and 306 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: how we go through this day typically in three stages, 307 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: a peak, a troughh and a recovery. Most of us 308 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: go in that order. Night outs go in a very 309 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: different order. And I realize, I'm looking at some of 310 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: this research that I should be doing my heads down 311 00:16:55,080 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: analytic work writing first thing in the morning, definitely in 312 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: the morning. And I changed my schedule around there so 313 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: that on writing days, I will set myself a word count, 314 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: however many words, you know, not a lot, seven hundred words, say, 315 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: and I will come into my office. I don't come 316 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: in exceptionally early. I come in at half past eight, 317 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,239 Speaker 1: and I'll say, okay, today, I got to write at 318 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: seven hundred words. And I won't bring my phone into 319 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: the office with me, I will not open up my email, 320 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: I will not do anything until I hit those seven 321 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: hundred words and then I'm free to do other things 322 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: and that. And so the idea that this peak period, 323 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: this idea that the research showing that I had this 324 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: three or four hour peak of vigilance and ability not 325 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: to be distracted, that I shouldn't furtuit that away answering 326 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: email or going on Twitter or any of that nonsense. 327 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: I really stuck to that and use that kind of 328 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: schedule to actually write this particular book. And this is 329 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: the first out of the six five of them were late, 330 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: only one was on time, and this was the one 331 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: on time. 332 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's interesting. And how like I mean, does 333 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 2: it require much willpower for you to stay off all 334 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 2: those digital distractions in the morning. 335 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: I'm not a big believer in willpower. I think when 336 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: you start having to use willpower, you're already losing the game. 337 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: What I do is is reconstruct the environment. So for instance, 338 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: as I said, I don't bring my phone in the 339 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: office with me, so I can't check my phone. I 340 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: can't check my text messages or anything like that. And 341 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 1: I literally do not open up any of my email 342 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: program any of my email program. I have two computers 343 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: in my office. I don't email open up the email 344 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: program on either computer in my office. I just don't 345 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: open it. And you know, I guess for the first 346 00:18:57,960 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: few days, I get to be, you know, maybe a 347 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: little bit if and twitchy about opening it up, but 348 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 1: after that it just seems normal. So again, to me, 349 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: the key is constructing the environment in a way to 350 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: eliminate distractions. And so that's about the physical environment, but 351 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: also the temporal environment. So if I come in and 352 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 1: the environment doesn't have any distractions, and I'm doing it 353 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: at the right time of day, then I have a 354 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: fighting chance to get some writing done. And then other 355 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: people are different. But I am very I rely a 356 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: lot on momentum, and so for me, if I do something, 357 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: if I do that on day one, and then day 358 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: two and then day three, I get into this rhythm 359 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: where each day becomes slightly easier because I've done something 360 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: the day before. I'm not one of those you know, 361 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: there are writers out there who I say, there are 362 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: a couple of writers year in the United States who 363 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: are also TV presenters, and two of them who I'm 364 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: thinking of, I don't I don't want to say their 365 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: names because I don't want to. I actually admire what 366 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: they're doing, but I don't want to be disrespectful. Is 367 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: that they will during the commercial breaks write their newspaper 368 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,679 Speaker 1: column on their phone, just like, oh, two minutes and 369 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: that let's go to commercial. And then there's a too 370 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: many commercial break and then they'll they'll write a few 371 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: sentences or paragraph on their newspaper column and then oh, 372 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: we're back. I could never do anything like that. Or 373 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: there's another there's another fellow who very accomplished author, very 374 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: smart guy, who is a he's a physician. There are 375 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 1: a lot of physician writers out there, but you know 376 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 1: these physicians who, oh, I'm going to write. I always 377 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: write a few paragraphs in between surgeries. That's not me. 378 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,239 Speaker 2: Wow, that's yeah, that's not me. How do you use 379 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 2: the other two sections of your day? 380 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: I use the early to mid afternoon typically for answering 381 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: email and putting. I'm a big I have a lot 382 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: of files, paper files, and like filing stuff away and 383 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: oh I need to scan this thing and put it 384 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: into drop you know, that kind of stuff that doesn't 385 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: require heavy load. And then during their cover period, which 386 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: is basically like the mid to late afternoon and early evening, 387 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: I generally do interviews. So interviews like this one are 388 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:39,239 Speaker 1: also even interviews when I am asking questions. So that 389 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 1: period of the day, so the peak again for most 390 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: of us early in the day, that's when we're most vigilant. 391 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: We should be doing our heads down work the trough 392 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: early to mid afternoon. That is a really bad time 393 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: of day. Our mental performance, cognitive skills are way down, 394 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: and so I do my administrative stuff then and then 395 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: when I come out of the trough, you know, around 396 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: whenever three o'clock three thirty four o'clock in the afternoon. 397 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: I tend to do interviews like this or things that 398 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 1: require not necessarily be lockdown and vigilant, but just to 399 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: be open to possibility, open to ideas, a little bit 400 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: more mentally loose. 401 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 2: And how do you manage your emails? Like I imagine 402 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 2: you must be inundebted with them? And I remember when yeah, okay, 403 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: well look, I remember when I first reached out to you, 404 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 2: which was many months ago, there was almost like this 405 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 2: this gatekeeper software that you had in place. Can you 406 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 2: talk about that? 407 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: Yes, I do. I use that. Yeah, I did that 408 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: because I was just getting so many emails and I 409 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: was also getting a lot of spam as well on 410 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: certain email addresses that were public, and so so I 411 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: just used a program called short Whale. And what that 412 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: is is essential. It's just like a form, and so 413 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 1: it says who are you and what's the top and 414 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: how quickly do you need a response, and then gives 415 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: people a short, short, short amount of room to make 416 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: to say what they want. And I find that at 417 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: I find that as a pretty effective, pretty effective system 418 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: for organizing the emails that come in and also just 419 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: forcing people to be brief. What I don't like is 420 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: getting a one thousand word email from someone whom I've 421 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: never heard of before. It's very unlikely that I'm going 422 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: to read that carefully. But if somebody, if a reader says, 423 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: if a reader says, hey, I read your book whatever, 424 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: and I have one question. Here it is and the 425 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: email is two short paragraphs or three four sentences, yeah, 426 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: I'm going to try to answer that. But if someone 427 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: sends me an email saying someone says me in the 428 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: email saying I've never read any of your books, but 429 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: here's my life story in fifteen hundred words, and can 430 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: we meet to have coffee, I'm probably going to say no. 431 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 2: I want to get into that actually, like because I 432 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 2: imagine a lot of the emails that you receive a 433 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 2: request for your time, And how do you like, aside 434 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 2: from the obvious, like, how do you decide what to 435 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 2: say yes to and what to say no to, particularly 436 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 2: for those opportunities that are perhaps not black and white. 437 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: That's another really great question. And I don't really have 438 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 1: a good way to do that, and I've changed over 439 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: the years, and I think it's an important question for 440 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: creators and artists to ask and I can argue both 441 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: sides of it. It's at one point, at some point, 442 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: it's certain moments in one's working life, it's really advantageous 443 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: say yes to everything, because, especially if you're not that 444 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, if you're just starting out, or you know, 445 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: you're trying to get your ideas out there, in some ways, 446 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: the default answer should be yes. I think that when 447 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 1: you're actually in the act of creating something or or 448 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: a little bit more established, I think in some ways 449 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: the default answer should be no. And so what I've 450 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: seen over the years is that, especially now, because it's 451 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: so distracting and there's so much stuff coming in, is 452 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 1: the default answer is generally going to be no. Someone 453 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 1: has to overcome the default that is a no. 454 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 2: Do you remember or I guess, like, how do you 455 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 2: know when when you've reached that tipping point when you 456 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: should change your default from yes to no. 457 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: You don't, You don't. It's a great question, And you know, 458 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: there's certain moments even in the there isn't a systematic 459 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: that I know of, a systematic way too. There isn't 460 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: a systematic way to do that, and you know, and 461 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: you got to do what feels right and authentic. To 462 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: you as an individual as well. There's some people who 463 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: love saying yes to a lot of stuff and who 464 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: love having lots of things going on. Then there are 465 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: people like me who can't multitask, who don't like working 466 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: on lots of parallel projects, who are you know, much 467 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 1: more narrow in the way that they approach things. 468 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 2: Do you have a strategy for saying no politely that 469 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 2: you've developed over the years. 470 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: I do, you know, because cause again it's like, you know, 471 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: people aren't trying to be route. And what I will 472 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 1: do is I will try very hard to answer questions 473 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: about the books from readers. I really do try to 474 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 1: answer all of those. I mean, I honestly don't do 475 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: it immediately, but I will often organize them into batches 476 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: and just sit down for you know, an hour or 477 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: two and answer thirty or forty or fifty or sixty 478 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 1: or one hundred emails from readers asking questions or things 479 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: like that. So I try to do that. For people 480 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: who want something else, I just try to be polite 481 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: and say, you know, basically what I said to you, 482 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,719 Speaker 1: which is that I'm terrible at doing two things at 483 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: one time. I'm a terrible multitasker. I'm terrible at having 484 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: parallel products going on, and right now I'm trying to 485 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: focus on one or two key projects. So unfortunately I 486 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: have to say no to most things. But thanks for 487 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,719 Speaker 1: contacting me, and you know, I just you know, and like, 488 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: you know, I just hope that you know the books 489 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 1: that you're writing, or the film that you're making, or 490 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: this album you're producing or whatever goes really well. 491 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. Nice. I want to talk about keynote speeches because 492 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,199 Speaker 2: I imagine that how a lot of listeners would know 493 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 2: you is through your very famous Ted talk, which I 494 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 2: think has received something like over twenty million views. And 495 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 2: I want to know, like, what's your process for translating 496 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 2: a book into a speech? 497 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, another great question. Well, here's the thing. The the 498 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: a book is going to have so much more material 499 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 1: in it, well, I mean a good book. It's just 500 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: not everybody abised by this, but a book should and 501 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: ideally have significantly more material than you could even begin 502 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: to present in say a half an hour talk. And 503 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: so I think the key is to figure out think 504 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: about what the audience is and what's the best half 505 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: hour set of material for them? And you know, the 506 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: way you talk about something in front of a group, 507 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: and the way that you actually write it are going 508 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: to be somewhat different, and so you know, I generally 509 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: will talk about it. Maybe do like a short talk 510 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: to a very very very very very small group of people, 511 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: like literally around the table, and do that a few 512 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: times and see what to see how people react, and 513 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: then maybe do some things that are for very small 514 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: audiences of you know, let's say fifteen people or something 515 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: like that, just to see how people react, sort of 516 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: like putting out a stage production. You go off off Broadway. 517 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: Then you go off Broadway, and you get it right 518 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: until you go to Broadway. 519 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and where do you start, Like when you're sitting 520 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 2: down constructing the first draft of a like are you 521 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 2: looking through the book going what are the most impactful 522 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 2: points I can make? Or like what's the overall idea? 523 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 2: Like where's that starting point? 524 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: I actually start with the audience and so and think 525 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: about trying to think about as much as possible from 526 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: the audience's perspective. So if you think about you know, okay, 527 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: so you know, here are these folks and they're going 528 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: to be sitting there for half an hour. They're imprisoned 529 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: there having to listen to me. What is going to 530 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: be is going to what is going to be entertaining 531 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: for them, engaging for them, interesting to them, and what 532 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: among all of this is going to make them say, 533 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: you know, because what I want is at the end 534 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: of that half hour to say, Hey, I'm glad I 535 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,719 Speaker 1: spent that half hour listening to this guy, rather than 536 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: checking my email, rather than hanging out with my spouse, 537 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: rather than taking care of my kids, rather than going 538 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: to the gym. That was a good use of a 539 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: half hour. And so it's going to vary from audience 540 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: to audience. And so I always start with the audience and. 541 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 2: What question it's like would you ask yourself when when 542 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 2: you're kind of unpacking the audience in preparation for designing 543 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 2: a presentation, you know, one thing. 544 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: Would be out of all the material out of all 545 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: the materials that I have, what are the two or 546 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: three things that this that this particular audience might react 547 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: to you saying, oh, I never knew of that. I 548 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: never thought of it that way. And then what are 549 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: some takeaways that would be most useful to this particular audience. 550 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: So if it's an audience of doctors, it might have it, 551 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: it's obviously going to have a different takeaway than if 552 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: it's an audience of consumer package good marketers or high 553 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: school principles or you know, military officers. 554 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 2: M yeah, that makes sense. Makes sense. And now, like 555 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 2: in the last few minutes that we've got, I want 556 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 2: to briefly touch on what are some of the things 557 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 2: that you're consuming, because I think it can be so 558 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: hard for the average person to know, like what should 559 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 2: they spend their time listening to, reading and so forth, 560 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 2: and and I know I listened to the kind of 561 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 2: what it was that a secret podcast that you released 562 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 2: to your subscribers actually just yesterday, which had some great recommendations. 563 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 2: But I'd love to delve into some different things that 564 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 2: perhaps you didn't mention. So I'd love to know podcasts. 565 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 2: So you're a big podcast consumer, and if so, what 566 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 2: are some of the ones that you listen to regularly? 567 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: I am actually not a huge podcast consumer. Part of 568 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: that is that I think one reason for that is 569 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: that I don't commute in a car, so I think 570 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: that's where a lot of people listen to their podcasts. 571 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: And I tend to be interested in episodes rather than 572 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: in a particular show, So I will rely on recommendation. 573 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: That's one of where I rely on recommendations from people. 574 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: There are a few that I there are a few 575 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: that I do look at, like there's a here in 576 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: the States. There's a national public radio podcast called Hidden 577 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,479 Speaker 1: Brain that I listened to a lot. There is The 578 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: New York Times has a podcast called The Daily that 579 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: I listened to a lot. But I'm really focused on episodes, 580 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: and you know, people recommending episodes to me rather than 581 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: religiously listening to a single show. 582 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 2: H That's a really interesting way I've approaching it and 583 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 2: thinking about twenty nineteen. What was the best book that 584 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 2: you read last year? 585 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: Huh? I read a lot of good books last year. 586 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: I mean on the nonfiction side. Two of the best 587 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: books that I've read. One of them was called The 588 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: Art of Gathering by Pria Parker, and it's a book 589 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: about gatherings and how everything from corporate off sites to 590 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: dinners with friends, to having people over to your house 591 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: to whatever parties or whatever. And she has this really 592 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: fascinating way of thinking about how to be much more 593 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: intentional about gatherings. What's the purpose of gatherings, Why it's 594 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: important not to be a chill host at the gatherings 595 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: why you should exclude people and it just made me 596 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: rethink a like even so, for instance, tonight, my family 597 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: is having another family over for dinner, and like, I'm 598 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: thinking about that book about Okay, how can we make 599 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: this a gathering that is meaningful to everybody. Another book 600 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: that I loved was called Rule Makers Rule Breakers by 601 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: Michelle Gelfand, who is a cultural psychologist at the University 602 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: of Maryland, and it's about really about her whole life's 603 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: work on what she calls tight cultures and loose cultures. 604 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: Tight cultures our cultures with lots of rules, pretty black 605 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: and white. Loose cultures are cultures without so many rules, 606 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: a little bit more gray. And it turns out that 607 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: this deep structure of loose and tight explolans many, many, 608 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: many things, from national differences to class differences, to different 609 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: parenting styles, et cetera, et cetera. So those are two. 610 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: But there's so many good books that come out each year, 611 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: so many good books that come out each year that 612 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: it's hard to keep up out of interest. 613 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 2: How do you decide which books that you will read 614 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 2: and won't read. 615 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: H I really don't have a systematic way of doing that. 616 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: I have these giant piles, and some of it depends 617 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: on some of it depends on my mood, what I 618 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: feel like doing at that particular moment. So the last 619 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: book I finished was a book called I read a 620 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: fair amount of fiction too. I don't read only nonfiction. 621 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 1: I read a fair amount of fiction. And the last 622 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: book I literally finished it last night as we're talking here, 623 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,280 Speaker 1: is called It's a Book Amazingly Enough by James Patterson, 624 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: who sold fourteen gazillion books, and Bill Clinton in the 625 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: former US president called The President is Missing. It's a thriller. 626 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 1: And I think I picked that. I picked up that 627 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: book because I think I was going on like a 628 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 1: short vacation and I wanted something that was totally easy 629 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: and escapist. But I didn't get to it then, and 630 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: then I just I think I picked it up one 631 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,800 Speaker 1: night when I couldn't sleep and wanted something that was 632 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: an easy read. And so I finally finished it last night. 633 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: It wasn't very good. 634 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 2: Okay good noted two quick final questions. So, again, going 635 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 2: back to the acknowledgment section of the book, you thanked 636 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 2: your wife in when for reading your books out loud, 637 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 2: and I was so curious, why do you do that? 638 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 2: Why do you go through that process? 639 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: Well, part of it is that I'm crazy and insane 640 00:35:54,760 --> 00:36:04,760 Speaker 1: and anal retena. But I find that reading out loud 641 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,879 Speaker 1: helps me immensely in writing better. So nearly everything I 642 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: write of significance, So you know, books or articles I 643 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: will read out loud because to me, it's just a 644 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 1: test of does it sound right? You know, are there 645 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 1: words in there that are clunkers? Is it as clear 646 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: and gleaming as it could possibly be. At the same time, though, 647 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: I like to hear the work read to me, and 648 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: there's only one person in the world who is willing 649 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: to sit in a chair and read me my work, 650 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,399 Speaker 1: and that is my wife. And I learn a lot 651 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: that way too, so hearing putting my hearing it So again, 652 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: it's you know, people have different ways of doing things. 653 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 1: I just settled on a way that work, that works 654 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: for me. But for me, reading out loud and hearing 655 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: the work read out loud it is for better. It 656 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: is a significant part of my editing process. It's very 657 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:11,720 Speaker 1: time consuming, it's very laborious, but that's how I do things. 658 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 2: Awesome. And finally, Dan, how can people find out more 659 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 2: about you and your work. 660 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: They can go to my website which is www. Danpink 661 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 1: da NPNK dot com. And I've got an email newsletter, 662 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 1: all kinds of groovy stuff in the resource sections, some videos, 663 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 1: all kinds of great stuff off at the lowlow price of. 664 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 2: Free fantastic and I must say I love your newsletter 665 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 2: and I will link to all that in the show notes. So, Dan, 666 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on the show. It's 667 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 2: just been an absolute privilege to hear about how you work. 668 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: Thanks a lot. It's a pleasure to have you to 669 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 1: get your intriguing questions. I'm glad I did this at 670 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: the right time of day. 671 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 2: Hello. There, that is it for today's show. I hope 672 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 2: you enjoyed my chat with Dan Pink and got some 673 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 2: useful insights and tips. And as always, please leave a 674 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,359 Speaker 2: review if you're enjoying How I Work, and please tell 675 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 2: someone about it. I know that most podcasts get found, 676 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,760 Speaker 2: and certainly I discover podcast through hearing about it from others. 677 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 2: So if you've been enjoying the show, why not tell 678 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,240 Speaker 2: someone about it today who you think could benefit. And lastly, 679 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 2: if you haven't already subscribed to How I work. Just 680 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 2: hit the subscribe button, and that way you'll be alerted 681 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,399 Speaker 2: whenever a new episode drops. That's it for today, I'll 682 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 2: see you next time.