1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Last month, we know the government announced that they would 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: be embarking on significant law and order reform to target 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: antisocial behavior in public places, developing a new Police Public 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,639 Speaker 1: Safety Officer a PPSO stream in an effort to better 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: deploy frontline resources across the key public spaces. Now that 6 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: new stream consolidates various auxiliary and safety officer roles into 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: one highly operational unit under Northern Territory Police. This is 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: what the government had said at the time, providing standardized 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 1: training through the Northern Territory Police College. Problem is, it 10 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: doesn't look as though those currently in the transit safety 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: and public housing safety roles are keen to transition to 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: the newly created role. Now joining us on the show 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: is Community and Public Sector Union Regional Secretary David Vilagis. 14 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: Good morning to you, David, Good morning Katie, Thanks so 15 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: much for your time. Now, David, last time you and 16 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: I spoke, you'd raise concerns that some of the current 17 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: transit and housing safety officers weren't sure if they would 18 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 1: transition to the new role. Where are things. 19 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 2: At, Kadine. Nothing much has changed. If anything, people are 20 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 2: just as if not more frustrated than they were when 21 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 2: the announcement first came out and they heard about their 22 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 2: jobs they made obsolete on the news. They're still very 23 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 2: frustrated because it has been over five weeks and they 24 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 2: still haven't received any details at all really about their 25 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 2: industrial entitlements, their pain conditions that will becoming what the 26 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 2: grandfathering situation will look like. Basically, the government's delegated all 27 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 2: responsibility to the police in terms of developing the PPSO 28 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 2: model first, which is being developed as we speak, and 29 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 2: then they'll be briefing our members in about a week's 30 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 2: time on that PPSO model. But based on the information 31 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 2: they've been provided, based on the way they've been treated 32 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: so far, based on the fact that a number of 33 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 2: them have already been police and have deliberately made that 34 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 2: choice to move into transit safety or public housing because 35 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 2: they prefer that model, they think it's a good model. 36 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 2: Just that every single person we've spoken to, bar one 37 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: is not interested in what the government's trying to do, 38 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 2: and they have serious concerns about the potential concerns for 39 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 2: public safety as well. 40 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: So, David, you are saying at this point in time, 41 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: one of those transit or housing safety officers have said 42 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: that they want to go into a PPSO role. 43 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 2: Yes, that's correct, and I guess what complicates it further 44 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 2: is and that that person raised a really important point 45 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: was that they're not even though they're very interested, they're 46 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 2: not sure if they would even meet the criteria for 47 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: a number of reasons. And that was explicitly raised in 48 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 2: a meeting that I had with representative from the police 49 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 2: and the employers. Immediately after that meeting with staff, when 50 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 2: we've put to the police what will happen if you know, 51 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 2: worst case scenario, after they've been provided all the information 52 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: and they have a full clear picture of exactly what 53 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: to expect, that we still have a situation where nobody 54 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: wants to do this. And the answer was that, well, 55 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: they will be contacted individually by the police, they'll be 56 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: offered an opportunity to apply, and even if they apply, 57 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 2: there's no guarantee that they'll get the role. Right, So 58 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 2: this isn't just some transition process. This isn't just another 59 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: machinery of government change where they change all the time 60 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 2: and the government they're saying, your jobs are gone and 61 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 2: if you want to apply, you can apply, but you 62 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 2: may not get the job either. 63 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,839 Speaker 1: David, that's a very different story to what we've been 64 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: told when this announcement was made. My understanding is that 65 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: if they wanted to stay in their current roles, they'd 66 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: be able to. 67 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 2: That is not what we've been communicated to us at all. 68 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 2: In fact, I was really surprised last night seeing the 69 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: ABC story that I spoke to because it sounds like 70 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 2: the government's replied saying something similar as well. But I 71 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 2: guess it just depends on who you talk to, because 72 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 2: I've spoken to directly with the employers, with the Commission 73 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: of Public Employment, with the Department of Housing, with the 74 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 2: Department of Infrastructure and Logistics, as well as a representative 75 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: from the police, and so far, what we've been told 76 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 2: about Grandfather is that at this stage they're still developing it. However, 77 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 2: what they'd be looking at is looking at each of 78 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 2: the individual stuff on a case by case basis and 79 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,679 Speaker 2: looking at how they better fit them in other parts 80 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 2: of the department, a redeployment sort of situation. But that's 81 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 2: all we've got. We've not been told at all that 82 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 2: they will have a choice to be able to stay 83 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: in their role, because it's been made clear to us 84 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 2: that both of those areas would be made obsolete, and 85 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 2: so far we've also been told even by the Department 86 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 2: of Housing because we asked them, we said, unlike transit safety, 87 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 2: we're it's like a very yeah, straightforward, not the right word, 88 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 2: you know, it's a very pacific role in terms of 89 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: patrolling and responding to public order and anti social behavior 90 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: at bus networks. The public housing safety model is much 91 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 2: more complex and multi dimensional. And we've asked what will 92 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: happen to those other roles outside of the you know, 93 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 2: addressing anti social behavior, and they said they're going to 94 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: be looking at splitting up those roles and being absorbed 95 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 2: into other roles in the department. So you know, again 96 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 2: this is this is the problem. This is the problem 97 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: we have with the communication. It's to we're told at 98 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,239 Speaker 2: the last minute, and then you are three different people 99 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 2: and you get four different answers. 100 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: So, David, in terms of you know, the number of 101 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: transit and housing safety officers that are currently in this situation, 102 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: how many people are we. 103 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: Talking So there's another point of contention there because in 104 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 2: the original media release it said there were fifty six 105 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 2: in total. That's that's based on ste and that's based 106 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: on you know, supervisors, coordinators, as well who don't have 107 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: a frontline role. But in terms of actual officers transit safety, 108 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,679 Speaker 2: there's only about sixteen, and in public housing there's about 109 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 2: fifteen in Darwin, there's about six in Our Springs, and 110 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 2: there's I'm going to say about four or five between 111 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 2: tannin Creek and Catherine, so it's a fairly more cohort overall. 112 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 2: They've mentioned that there's fifty six that will be transitioning, 113 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 2: so we still don't know, you know, the officers don't 114 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 2: know what's going to happen, but alone the coordinators and 115 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: the case managers and the managers themselves. But at this stage, 116 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 2: that's how many we're looking at at the moment. 117 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: So, David, in terms of, you know, the fact that 118 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: then they're saying at this point in time, they're not 119 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: really wanting to go into these new roles, these PPSO roles. 120 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: Do you think that if they can get some of 121 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: that clarification, if they can get some further detail at 122 00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: that upcoming meeting, that their minds may change anything possible. 123 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 2: I think there's a large number of them who even 124 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 2: with that information, it won't and the reason is that 125 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: they have that direct experience with the police already a 126 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 2: lot of them are really concerned and I guess if 127 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: there's a further plan to address this, this would be fantastic. 128 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 2: But they're really concerned about the fact that these models 129 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: were created in the first place to supplement the police, 130 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: to help the police, because they're always under staff. They're 131 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 2: always trying to get more people to work for the police, 132 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 2: and that's part of the reason why the NTPA are 133 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: having a big stats with the government, just like we 134 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 2: are with bargaining, because they're trying to attract more people 135 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 2: and keep them in the police force. So we've had 136 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 2: transit safety in public housing to support that model, right, 137 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 2: So they're very tied to that model because it works. 138 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: And the other if that needs to be seriously addressed 139 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: is the fact that, especially those who have that experience 140 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 2: and we've shared it with other staff, the issues at 141 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: bus networks, the issues that arise in public housing. So 142 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 2: for example, you know, somebody calls because the music, you 143 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: know that somebody has been playing the music for three 144 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 2: days straight, really loudly, or they've got people that are 145 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: coming in and out of their homes and they don't 146 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: want them there, and the public housing safety officers come 147 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 2: in and they get out, this isn't this isn't your house. 148 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 2: These sorts of activities are not prioritized by the police. 149 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: Antisocial behavior at the bus stops are not prioritized by 150 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 2: the police. And so far from the trickle of information 151 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: we've received is that the PPSO model will be very broad, 152 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 2: addressing public anti social behavior across the board and bottlows 153 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: and everything else as well. So the problem we have 154 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 2: is as well, is that we've already got a group 155 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 2: of people that have been saying for years this works, 156 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 2: but we need more staff. We're doing the best we 157 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 2: can with what we've got, but we also need more 158 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 2: people on the ground, and they're saying not only will 159 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: we have the same number, but they will be spread 160 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: out across even more pieces of work. So then again, 161 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,959 Speaker 2: it does raise concerns from our members, specifically about how 162 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 2: they'll be able to continue to effectively address anti social 163 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 2: behavior at the bus stops and in public housing as well. 164 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: I mean, could it and you know I could be 165 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: wrong here, but could it be a situation where these ppsos, 166 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: I mean, the government has sort of said that the 167 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: whole idea of the creation around them was to be 168 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: able to go and deal with those issues that obviously 169 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: you've just touched on their you know, music being played 170 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: too loud in public housing, obviously, issues on the bus, 171 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: that kind of thing, but actually giving them further training 172 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: and for the tools to be able to deal with 173 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: those issues in a more prompt and efficient manner. 174 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 2: So I guess the response from our members would be 175 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 2: one of the big issues they're going to encounter is 176 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 2: that people, especially in public housing, for example, they will 177 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 2: feel much more comfortable talking to a public housing statety 178 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 2: officer who is not emblazoned with and this isn't a 179 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 2: criticism of the police at all, but they are more 180 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: comfortable talking to people who aren't police and engaging with them. 181 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 2: And that's one of the concerns they have is that 182 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 2: they've built up these relationships over many years. Alice Springs 183 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 2: is a perfect example. They build up these relationships over 184 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 2: many years, so they can de escalate issues a lot 185 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 2: more quickly and respond much more quickly at the moment. 186 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: If they wear police uniforms, that will also cause friction 187 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 2: as well. And then the other concern that's been communicated 188 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: to me from outside of our membership space is the 189 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: fact that even the training, the training itself and the 190 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 2: issues that the police are also having with with you know, 191 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 2: the recruitment processes for the police too, is also another problem. Right, 192 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 2: So look, I mean look to be clear, like, yeah, 193 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 2: we all have a vested interest in this. This is 194 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 2: one of the first times in my career where like, 195 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 2: this is something that's directly impacting me, like I live 196 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 2: in Darwin and I also worry about anti social behavior 197 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 2: and public order. We all have a stake, Inness. I 198 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: want something that will work. Yeah, but this is clearly 199 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 2: something that they've just put meant that they announced this 200 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 2: major change, not spoken to a single person who's been 201 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: doing this for fifteen or twenty years, is really alarming, right, Like, 202 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 2: I want something, We want something, Our members want something 203 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 2: that will actually work, and right now everything they've been 204 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 2: presented is only giving them more red flags. 205 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: Well, David, please keep us up to date as that 206 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: meeting takes place and as you are given further information. 207 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: I'll be really keen to talk to you again soon, mate. 208 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for your time this morning. I 209 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: appreciate you joining us on the show and raising those 210 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: issues with us. 211 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Tom, Thanks so much.