WEBVTT - The Investigation That Never Was 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:06.000 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:08.400 verdicts against all three defendants. 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:11.040 It was absolute shambles to tell you the truth just 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:13.560 actually really come of blood on Who's closing the day 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:16.040 after the alleged at an Ashelle mud bank and it 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:16.880 fits through a river. 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.160 Basically, I think most of the people are used to me, 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:20.480 there are good people. 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:23.119 I think a really important question we need to ask 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:26.279 is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:29.760 This is Curtain, a podcast where we pull back the 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:32.320 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:35.280 our justice system and ask who are the victims. 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:40.959 I'm Amy Maguire and I'm Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:44.839 for the Foreign Prisoner Support Service. And a warning. This 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:48.840 series contains the names of deceased peoples and has distressing 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:51.559 content that might upset some listeners. 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:55.640 My name is Ramus Santana. My name is Kevin Richardson. 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:58.160 My name is Yuseph Salam. I'm one of the Central 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:01.000 Park five. In eighteen eighty nine, we were falsely arrested 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:02.760 and convicted for crimes that we didn't commit. 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:03.840 We were kids at the time. 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:05.600 We spent presciushrees of our life in prison. 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:07.600 We were taken from our homes and we were put 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.240 in prison for the next seven to thirteen years. 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:13.080 In our case, there were false confessions. The public never 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:16.360 got a chance to see how these false confessions started. 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:17.880 They only saw the ending. 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:22.440 With the problem my rights and interrogated behind closed doors. 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:24.600 This is stuff that we want people to see. What 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.120 actually takes place inside that room when they feed you 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:31.240 details the pride of food and he doesn't have any sleep, 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:34.080 the pride of water. They go through dramatic stress, being 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.479 the prov of your necessity. When a person sits there 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:40.440 for over twenty hours, I just wanted to go home. Basically, 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:43.600 all you get at the end is just that nice 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:46.000 package of a person saying that they committed a crime. 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:47.000 What was he doing with him? 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:49.760 We want you to see the whole process, from me 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:51.640 begeinning to the end, from beginning to the end. 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.640 That was three members of the famous Central Park five. 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:01.520 Like Kevin, they were convicted of murder twenty five years ago, 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:07.040 and just like Kevin, the only evidence presented in court 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:12.400 against them were false confessions. All were coerced using the 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:16.120 same sort of police techniques that were very common at 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:21.160 the time but still persist to this day. Just like Kevin, 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:25.120 there was no forensic evidence or DNA linking them to 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:29.400 the crime, and yet despite this, they lost years of 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:33.960 their life in prison at the time of their sentence. 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:40.679 Now President Donald Trump called for their execution, But the 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.359 Central Park Five are now free and they've proven their 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:48.760 innocence and they've shown that the way their confessions were 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:53.120 taken and forced out of them was very common at 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:58.400 the time. That's why now they want videos of confessions 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:03.320 like theirs, taken from start to finish, not stopped and started, 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:07.880 as was also the case with Kevin Henry. The Central 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:11.760 Park Five are now successfully suing many of the people 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:16.520 who were involved in their conviction for a crime they 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:21.960 did not commit. Just like Kevin, they didn't have proper 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:27.280 legal representation. They were also in no state to give 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:31.160 any evidence to police. They should have had lawyers by 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:34.480 their side. They should have had time to speak with 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:38.760 these lawyers and understand what was being put to them 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:42.400 and what the police was saying, but no one took 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:48.080 that time, and sadly, just like Kevin Henry, they found 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.960 themselves in prison for a crime they knew they didn't 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:57.480 commit and just like Kevin Henry, they always maintained their innocence. 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:02.040 For the past year, we've been outlining the case of 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:06.880 Kevin Henry or Curtin, and over this year we've raised 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:10.960 serious doubt about his gill. We're glad you've come on 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.600 this journey with us and it become involved in investigating 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:18.720 the case. Over the past few months, we've received a 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:22.040 lot of feedback from those of you who are trying 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:23.760 to figure out this case as well. 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:26.920 We have tried to answer a lot of those questions 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:31.119 that there is always one enduring one. If Kevin didn't 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:34.800 do it, who did. In this episode, we're going to 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.200 be backtracking a little bit and we'll give you some 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:42.239 information that you haven't received yet. It revolves around another witness, 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:45.960 because Kevin wasn't the first person police tried to pin 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.680 this crime on. But first I want to stop asking Martin. 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:52.920 You've received a lot of feedback, particularly from people in 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:56.680 the legal fraternity. So what's been the common perception of 0:04:56.800 --> 0:04:57.359 this case. 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:02.640 I think a lot of people, particularly lawyers, in breaking 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:08.120 down the case, quickly look at the legal technicalities of 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:12.720 the case, the flaws and the lack of evidence, But 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:16.560 also I think the common curiosity is if Kevin didn't 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:18.200 do it, then who did? 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.800 And I think we've seen, particularly overseas, that when these 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:25.960 sort of investigations are made public, people tend to go 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.520 down their own lines of inquiry. Do you think do 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:32.040 you think there are certain people that the public are 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.720 sort of thinking are more likely to have done this crime. 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:39.359 I think, based on the information that's available to the public, 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:44.240 perhaps some people might think that the women who committed 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:49.160 the initial assault might be responsible for Linda's dance. But 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:53.360 from what we know, including all the facts that are 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:58.279 available at the time and now, that's probably not the case, 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.760 particularly not the case that they were the ones who 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:03.800 placed Linder's body in the river. 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.160 So it's I mean, we've said throughout this investigation that 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:10.680 they were definitely the ones who committed the assault. We're 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.680 not denying that that was an actual fact, and it 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.520 came out in court, but it's just what happened to 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:22.320 her body afterwards, and what Kevin got the harsher sentence for. 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:24.440 That's what we're sort of saying that we have. No, 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:27.880 we're not there's no indication that they were involved in 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:28.280 any way. 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:33.000 Yeah, that's right. I think from the initial investigation, what 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:37.240 came out at trial, and what we've learned now our 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:40.760 own investigation that there's no doubt that they were not 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.960 involved in the placing of the body in the river. 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.320 So we never said the three women who were convicted 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:50.720 of Griev's bodily harm were the ones who placed Linder 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:53.880 in the river. We obviously can't rule it out, but 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:55.360 it does seem very unlikely. 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.000 But in this episode we're going to go through the 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:03.599 other people. Police should have followed up and they didn't. 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:06.640 I also have to note that many of the people 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.760 were discussing are now deceased. That's the other tragic part 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:12.240 of this story. Too many Aboriginal people who have died 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.520 before their time. All of the people we've mentioned in 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:18.440 this story have histories of trauma, just like Linda, and 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:24.240 just like Kevin Henry so Martin. There was no forensics 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:28.480 at the scene, nothing really tying Kevin to the crime 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:32.400 at all. I just wonder why did the police start 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.160 pointing towards Kevin. When did they start to do this 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:36.600 and why? 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:42.360 Well, at some point mister Henry believed or said he'd 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:46.320 called an ambulance at some point in the evening, However, 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.520 a check at the records showed that no ambulance was 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:54.960 dispatched to Tanuba House, and that's most likely a call 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:59.760 had never been made at all. Whether Kevin remembers this inaccurately, 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:03.560 explained it this way due to the weight of pressure 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:07.960 being exerted upon him in the interrogation, or made it up, 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:14.000 it really doesn't matter. No ambulance came and no ambulance 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:18.960 was called, But it's what happens next that's most concerning. 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.960 So I guess I what happened after that? I mean, 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.720 it seems to me, I mean, it isn't inaccurate information, 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.520 but everyone was drunk at that time. There could have 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:33.079 been quite an indis innocent explanation for it. So what 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.280 happened after that? And and did police fail to follow 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.439 any other avenues or so? 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:45.440 What happened is that one police ascertained that most likely 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:50.440 no ambulance was called. They zeroed in on Kevin Henry 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:55.480 very quickly. And here's what happened at trial. This is 0:08:55.640 --> 0:09:01.520 David Murray, Kevin's barrister. My client told you in a 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:05.040 record of interview that we will no doubt here tomorrow 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:10.199 that he rang the ambulance. Whereas you inquired and found 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:14.319 out that he never did. This paints the picture? Does it? 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:18.640 This means Henry is right for it? Does it? Responding 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:23.559 in court his officer hunt, No, it does not. 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:26.920 Did if this was the only thing that sort of 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:31.760 began the investigation and pointed more towards Kevin, did Kevin's 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:35.280 representation at trial actually challenged that in any way when 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:35.960 it went to court. 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:41.319 Yeah, So I think that the point mister Murray was 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:46.040 making was that if all they had at this point 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:49.719 was the fact that a call probably wasn't made to 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:54.080 an ambulance, was this all they really had to investigate 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:58.200 Kevin Henry? And why did they assume from this point 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:04.760 that he was involved, particularly when there was potentially other suspects. 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:09.000 And he'd go on to thrash out with the officers 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.560 whether they'd investigated any of those other suspects. 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.400 Before we go into that sort of testament, can I 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:19.120 ask you who were were there a number of police 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:22.160 officers who gave evidence at the trial it was only 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.520 or how many actually gave evidence and who were they? 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:32.520 So we have two officers who ran the investigation, while 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:36.599 a number of officers gave evidence a trial only to 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:42.960 speak to the actual investigation. The leading investigators were Senior 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:49.360 Constable Robert Hunt and Plane closed Senior Constable leslie Girk. 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:54.440 They ran the investigation from start to finish, and they 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:59.400 were the two officers who gave testimony on the stand 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:01.679 about the investigation itself. 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:06.079 Did they ever give an actual explanation as to why 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:10.319 Kevin was the one primarily cornered for this or that 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:12.880 was the only thing? The ambulance and they didn't. That 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:14.319 was all they said in relation to it. 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:19.679 The ambulance was the main reason that they seemed to 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.719 target in on Kevin early on. What we don't know 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:27.600 is what was said by other people off the record, 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:32.400 what the police believed of their own volition and never 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:36.599 admitted to on the stand. But what we do know 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:40.079 is that very early on, and I mean very early on, 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.840 the police targeted Kevin and virtually no one else. 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:49.440 Now they didn't target anyone else. Was that fact brought 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:53.640 force in trial, particularly by Kevin's representation. Did they bring 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:54.600 up any other names? 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:59.800 Yes, so a number of other names were raised, particularly 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:05.680 mister Murray Kevin's defense barrister. Again, this is mister Murray 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:11.440 Kevin Henry's barrister at trial, across examining officer Robert Hunt. 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.559 You tell us now, detective, why you didn't investigate duk 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:21.360 Heart and question why he lied to you? Answer? Duckhart 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:25.360 had already been questioned in regard to the matter. In 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:30.480 regards to the statement, question, did you go back and 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:34.719 question why he lied to you? Answer? No, I did not. 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.400 Why not because it had been clarified in other statements 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:45.840 that he was not present there? Question can you tell 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:51.840 us which statements it's clarified that he wasn't present? Answer? 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:55.679 I cannot recall. I'd have to recall back to them. 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.040 Question perhaps we will still be going tomorrow, you can 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:09.200 do it tonight. Answer all right. Then mister Murray raised 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:16.400 another potential suspect, the question do you know Willy West? Answer? No, 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:21.439 I do not. Question, well, Willy West is mentioned in 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:25.160 some of the material. Didn't you want to equate yourself 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:28.120 with a name that was mentioned in the material that 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:32.679 there was no statement? Front Hunt answers does he go 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:38.480 by any other name? Murray continues, I'm asking you. You're 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:44.199 the detective, I'm the barrister and answers, no, I'm not 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:49.480 familiar with that name Willy West. Now, at this point, 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:54.439 mister Murray also raises some other names. They may not 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:59.679 be suspects, but they are names we do know that 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:05.160 would have been known to the investigating officers. Mister Murray 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:11.160 asks what about Clinton Hill? The answer, I'm not familiar 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:16.520 with that name either. What about Brian Tawley, I'm not 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:21.640 familiar with that name? What about a white fellow also 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:25.880 a confident of Tully's, named Roy, who is recently deceased. 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:30.400 Do you know him at all? I'm not sure who 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:31.800 you are referring to know. 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:37.000 So did the police make any effort to find out 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:39.880 who these people were? And why didn't they know? And 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:43.080 also what were their explanations for not following up for. 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:47.119 The any Well, they didn't really seem to have an explanation. 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:50.880 They should have known because these names were raised in 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:55.240 statements by the people present at Tanuba House that night, 0:14:56.160 --> 0:15:01.080 so the information was known to police. The information was 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.200 in the statements. I think one of the reasons they 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.520 say they're not familiar with the names is they simply 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:12.160 never followed it up. And this goes to a point 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:17.320 that as soon as they looked at Kevin for the crime, 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:23.280 they zeroed in on Kevin, and Kevin alone and that's 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:28.040 problematic in any investigation by not keeping an open mind, 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:34.200 by not being open to the possibility that anyone else 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.840 and we know that at least thirty people were there 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:41.200 that night, plus others who could have come and gone 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:46.800 were potentially responsible, means that anyone who actually did the 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:49.040 crime was missed from the start. 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.880 Now, these there weren't only people who were known that 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:57.800 to Nuba were there. We've already discussed several times on 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:01.320 this program about the other camp which seemed to be 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:05.120 predominantly white fellows who'd come down to Tanuba House. Did 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.000 that come up in trial? And did the police show 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:11.000 any indication that they knew about this other camp of people. 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:17.080 Yeah, that information certainly did come up, but it doesn't 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:21.520 appear like any investigation was done into who these people 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.840 were and what happened. Again, I'll go back to the transcript. 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:33.760 It's mister Murray Cross examining Senior Constable Robert Hunt. Did 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:37.000 you gain information that some white fellows and perhaps some 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:41.800 Aboriginal fellows in company with them, used to frequent Tanuba 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:48.080 House for purposes of violence and attempting intercourse with the 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:54.440 Aboriginal women. The answer, yes, we had. Did you investigate 0:16:54.560 --> 0:17:01.200 to find those men. Yes, I think we did. Murray, 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.080 you think we did? I have to ask you again, 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:10.720 you are the detective. The answer, yes, we did. Where 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:15.520 did you look? We tried to ascertain the names and 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:19.760 identities of these people through the statements that were provided 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:24.000 to us. As such, no further information could be given 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:28.400 to us. As such, we could not continue with the investigation. 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:35.040 We had nothing to go by. Has it puzzled you 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:40.960 that during this trial this court has founded these names out? Answer? No, 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:46.840 it does not. Again, mister Murray, very well, during the 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.800 course of your investigation, did you find out the names 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:53.320 of any persons who at any time had frequented ten 0:17:53.400 --> 0:18:00.359 Uber House, stirring up or causing trouble with the occupants there? Hunt, No, 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:04.440 I did not. Can you tell us the extent of 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:10.480 your inquiries in that respect? Is that to your initial 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:13.360 inquiry to which you made or to your question? Now, 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:20.840 Hunt replies, I'm talking about the same subject. We did 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:28.040 not make any further inquiries in relation to that. Murray, then, presses, 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:33.120 can you tell us the inquiries you did make? As 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.440 I said before, it had come out in a number 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:36.280 of the statements. 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:40.879 So what do we take from that? It seems that 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:44.440 Hunt has just admitted that they weren't actually actively investigating, 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:47.840 actually going out and finding out more about suspects. They 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:51.320 were just looking through the statements they had already taken. 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.840 Yeah, I think that's particularly troubling. I think when anyone 0:18:56.000 --> 0:19:01.119 thinks about police work, particularly something as serious as a murder, 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:06.520 that police would be boots on the ground looking for information, 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:11.359 speaking to people, knocking on doors and trying to find 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.760 out who these other people were. Now they say that 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:21.199 the names came up in the statements and plenty given't 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:24.600 and that they just couldn't ascertain who these people were. 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:28.080 But we know from these statements that they were told 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.639 exactly who a number of these people were and it 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:36.440 was just never followed up on. Understand Hunt was also 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:41.520 asked about other people, Loretta Brown and could not recall 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:45.399 if he interviewed her, nor a Bernie Ross. But he 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:47.679 had taken these statements. 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:51.960 The timeframe of them pointing at Kevin. Did he mention 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:55.600 the ambulance in his original statement, and that's where they 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:59.120 got it from. So they've only got one inconsistency from 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.159 one early star, is that how it worked in relation. 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.080 To the time for it comes from the first statement 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:08.720 that Kevin gave, and we have to remember that he 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:14.159 was clearly intoxicated at this time. We've heard from his cousin, 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:18.119 Doug Graham, who saw a video of Kevin at this 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:22.960 point and could tell he was intoxicated. Kevin made the 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:27.960 claim about the ambulance, and whether he did that because 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:32.920 he was just trying to please the officers and get 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:37.040 out of the interview under massive stress, we don't know. 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:42.040 But that was the point where they've decided Kevin was 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:46.880 right for it. As mister Murray put to Senior Constable. 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:49.520 Hunt, so before they picked him up that day and 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:54.119 interviewed him, so over that course of that to our interview, 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:58.280 they hadn't singled him out particularly. It was only because 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.280 of that interview and him talking about the ambulance that 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:03.720 they began to zone in on him. Or were there 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:07.960 other people beforehand, or how did that work out? It 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:10.080 was just when they picked him up and began talking 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:11.600 to him at this point. 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:15.399 In no way at all was Kevin Henry considered a 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:19.480 suspect for the crime. His name hadn't come up because 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:22.879 he wasn't involved at all in the assault on Winder 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:26.919 and he wasn't considered a key person at the scene. 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:33.359 It wasn't until that interview where the officers decided he 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:35.480 was the person they were going to go after. 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:38.960 So I guess we can take from that given that 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:41.680 it was only after that interview that they really singled 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:44.560 in on Kevin, that there might have been other black 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:48.199 falls they were chasing a relation to this crime beforehand. 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:52.000 Yeah, so we know that a number of other people 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:56.920 were accused of the crime, and they include Frank and 0:21:57.000 --> 0:22:04.200 Wayne Saunters. Wayne's Saunders gave testimony on the stand, which 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:09.240 was that he and his brother Frank were told by 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:13.080 the police they'd done it. Now, there is absolutely no 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:17.120 evidence that Frank and Wayne Saunders were at all involved, 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:19.879 and we don't believe for a minute that the police 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:23.680 thought they were either. They were simply trying to scare them. 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:28.600 Wayne Saunders gave up to five statements to police, and 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:32.920 we've discussed that previously. He was the one who police 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:36.879 kept harassing for a statement all the way up to 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:41.600 the prison that he was in in November, some months 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:43.240 after the crime had occurred. 0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:47.640 So what did they say, why they had begun harassing 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:50.080 him or looking into him, or what came out in court. 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.000 There was absolutely no explanation as to why the police 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:59.280 accused him, his brother, or some of the other people 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:02.320 who were at an uber house. It appears that were 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:07.240 just throwing accusations, either hoping some mud would stick or 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:11.600 that someone would buckle and give information that it seems 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:15.399 fairly clear the people being interviewed just didn't have. 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:19.560 What was my interusments to this or did people or 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:22.320 people around ten Uba seem to know what was happening, 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:24.440 because I can imagine it would have been quite a 0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:27.000 fearful time for a lot of people if the police 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:30.600 are coming in and accusing a whole heap of people 0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:31.120 at the time. 0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:34.600 Yeah, so we know there was a great deal of 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:39.720 fear amongst the people down at tan Uba. They'd obviously 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:44.520 witnessed something horrific. We know that some of the people 0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:49.440 there had been involved in the assault. They didn't have 0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:53.639 any information they could provide to police that was useful, 0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:56.800 and this is where we get to many of the 0:23:56.880 --> 0:24:02.560 statements that were simply inaccurate, made up, or just trying 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:05.840 to please the police to get out of the interviews 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:11.920 they were giving. But with this information being so unclear, 0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:16.879 the police should have been investigating further. They couldn't simply 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:21.440 continue to drag Aboriginal people up to the police station, 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:26.000 accuse them of murder and hope that information would come 0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:26.480 from it. 0:24:26.760 --> 0:24:30.400 Tanuba was largely frequented by mostly Aboriginal people, but there 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:33.160 were white people who were down there occasionally. And we've 0:24:33.200 --> 0:24:35.200 talked a bit about the other camps that were along 0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:40.080 the riverbank. So was it only blackfellows who were targeted? 0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:42.680 And did that ever come up in the trial that 0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:45.120 they could have been they should have maybe been looking 0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:48.480 for someone outside of the Tanuba community. 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:53.560 Yeah, that came up again in the cross examination of 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:57.800 Senior Constable Hunt, and it was known to everyone. And 0:24:57.920 --> 0:25:01.760 it's important to point this out that anyone who knew 0:25:01.840 --> 0:25:05.440 this area of Rockhampton knew about the multiple camps along 0:25:05.520 --> 0:25:10.720 the river and that it wasn't only Aboriginal people. This 0:25:10.920 --> 0:25:16.440 is what mister Murray, Kevin Henry's barrister asked Senior Comfortable 0:25:16.520 --> 0:25:20.520 Hunt on the stand. A number of white people have 0:25:20.680 --> 0:25:24.600 been down there trying to stir up trouble cause some 0:25:25.040 --> 0:25:29.720 either assault the aboriginals down there, Hunt interrupts. We tried 0:25:29.760 --> 0:25:32.360 to take that further, but we could not find any 0:25:32.480 --> 0:25:35.960 identity or any names as to who we could go 0:25:36.200 --> 0:25:40.200 further with the investigation on that matter. The next question, 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:44.000 did you ascertain it all if there was another camp 0:25:44.080 --> 0:25:47.400 at all further down the river, down past the Cruising 0:25:47.480 --> 0:25:54.320 Knot Club Answer, I did not realize that. Now. There's 0:25:54.400 --> 0:25:58.960 two problems with these answers that have been given. A 0:26:00.520 --> 0:26:03.840 Hunt did know the names of some of those people 0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:07.639 who'd been coming down, because they were in the statements 0:26:07.680 --> 0:26:10.240 that had been given to him, and they were people 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:15.240 who were frequently known to police. The other issue is 0:26:15.359 --> 0:26:19.840 that there is no doubt, an abstractous credulity to believe 0:26:20.359 --> 0:26:24.399 that Hunt was not aware of another camp nearby at 0:26:24.440 --> 0:26:29.200 the Cruising Yacht Club. He was an officer in Rockhampton 0:26:29.840 --> 0:26:35.479 who frequently visited this area and these camps were often 0:26:35.520 --> 0:26:39.200 where people were picked up by police. For him to 0:26:39.280 --> 0:26:43.000 suggest he didn't know this camp existed at all and 0:26:43.160 --> 0:26:46.800 that was the reason he didn't investigate the white people 0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:49.680 who'd been at that camp and who were known to 0:26:49.800 --> 0:26:53.680 cause trouble at Tonouba when they visited there. It's just 0:26:53.840 --> 0:26:56.240 not believable, and just for. 0:26:56.320 --> 0:27:00.240