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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers now. And now

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Speaker 1: here's the stars of our show, My Mum and Dad.

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Speaker 2: Gooday, it's doctor Justin Colson here, dad to six kids,

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Speaker 2: author of six books and the founder of Happy Families

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Speaker 2: dot com dot You at school holidays around most of

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Speaker 2: Australia at the moment, and Kylie and I have taken

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Speaker 2: the opportunity to spend some family time doing family stuff

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Speaker 2: with the kids, which means our usual podcast is not

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Speaker 2: going the way that it typically would. We hope that

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Speaker 2: you're getting some time out with your family as well. However,

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Speaker 2: we wanted to keep a podcast going in some fashion

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Speaker 2: and so we're sharing some highlights from great conversations we've

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Speaker 2: had with people over the last six months. If you're

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Speaker 2: new to the podcast, please continue listening because some of

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Speaker 2: the highlights that we've got for you are just so

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Speaker 2: rock solid and so fascinating. Like today, we're talking at

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Speaker 2: a parenting and Perspective interview series that I recorded last year,

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Speaker 2: and on episode one twenty one, I spoke with doctor

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Speaker 2: Catherine Medeki and she shared with us the results of

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Speaker 2: a study on the effects of phone usage on our

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Speaker 2: children and families. I started asking Karen about the inspiration

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Speaker 2: behind the study.

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Speaker 3: So this actually began as a partnership with the ABC

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Speaker 3: for a National Science. This is response from parents across Australia.

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Speaker 3: These are more than three thy five hundred responses and

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Speaker 3: parents reported on their different ways of using their smartphone,

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Speaker 3: the amount of time they were using their smartphones and

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Speaker 3: texting and using social network sites. They also reported on

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Speaker 3: conflicts in the family around the parents' smartphone use and

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Speaker 3: displacing time with the phone. Excuse me to stay at

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Speaker 3: lacing time with the family to do their phones, as

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Speaker 3: well as the parent child relationships.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's one of the big things, isn't it, Catherine.

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Speaker 2: You know people will say, and I've certainly been one

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Speaker 2: who said it, one of the biggest challenges we have

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Speaker 2: with our smartphone use is not that there's anything necessarily

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Speaker 2: wrong with using the smartphone. It's what it's actually interfering

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Speaker 2: with or displacing. If I'm staring at my phone, I'm

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Speaker 2: not engaging with my child exactly.

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Speaker 3: And in a lot of ways a smartphone has come,

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Speaker 3: I would argue, to sort of represent something beyond what

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Speaker 3: it's actually doing, so you know, it sort of represents

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Speaker 3: the attention sometimes maybe we're not getting, or that you know,

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Speaker 3: closest we're not necessarily feeling, but absolutely, and it's really

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Speaker 3: you know, there's been a lot in the media in

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Speaker 3: particular and certain scholars sort of arguing that the smartphone

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Speaker 3: is problem, problem, problem, But as a parent, you know

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Speaker 3: that it also allows us to get our work done

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Speaker 3: and allows us to find support, find information, So it's

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Speaker 3: it's not just one thing. And so the goal here

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Speaker 3: was sort of to say, well, well, if this is

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Speaker 3: a problem, we have the type of data that will

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Speaker 3: absolutely find it. So we have this huge sample, we

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Speaker 3: have the measures that are being used in studies. Let's

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Speaker 3: take an exploratory approach, being open to the possibility that

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Speaker 3: this might not be a problem, that this might be okay.

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Speaker 3: And so we started with over a thousand ways of

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Speaker 3: looking at these data, these different variables, and we soon decided,

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Speaker 3: as you're saying, that really the story here is about,

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Speaker 3: you know, whether or not the smartphone time is displacing

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Speaker 3: time with my family or causing conflicts with my family.

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Speaker 3: But what was surprising is overall the pattern really was

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Speaker 3: a positive relation, meaning more time across twelve different measures

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Speaker 3: of smartphone use was associated with better quality parent child

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Speaker 3: relationship self reported by parents, as long as there wasn't

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Speaker 3: heaps of displacement of time with family, So as long

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Speaker 3: as this is not becoming a huge source of avoidance

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Speaker 3: of your family or a huge source of conflict in

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Speaker 3: the family, more time, if anything, is associated with better relationships,

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Speaker 3: certainly not worse.

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Speaker 2: Now, this is really curious to me. When I'm thinking

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Speaker 2: about the central aspects of what makes relationships in the

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Speaker 2: family work, I think, well, something that I say all

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Speaker 2: the time is that, just like dollars of the currency

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Speaker 2: of our economy, connection is the currency of our relationship.

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Speaker 2: And to me, it seems that a smartphone is going

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Speaker 2: to interfere with connection. I might be in the middle

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Speaker 2: of a conversation with my wife or one of my kids.

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Speaker 2: The phone rings. I get it, you know, there's a

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Speaker 2: text message come through. I just remember that I've got

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Speaker 2: a respond of that email, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: my attention diverts from that beloved family member to that

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Speaker 2: phone that I can pick up and cradle and caress

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Speaker 2: and touch and get a different kind of feedback from,

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Speaker 2: very very quickly, you know, and I get to be

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Speaker 2: efficient and productive and do all those things. Now, surely

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Speaker 2: that's going to be well, your research is suggesting no,

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Speaker 2: But I would have thought logically that's going to interfere

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Speaker 2: with my relationship.

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Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about it. So interference with your relationship

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Speaker 3: is different than smartphone use. And so one of the

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Speaker 3: issues is that in the literature, you know, the title

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Speaker 3: will say smartphone use is associated with you know, problems,

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Speaker 3: but if you look at what's being measured, it's that

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Speaker 3: disruption which you're talking about. So two things. First of all,

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Speaker 3: there's different ways to be using your phone. So you

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Speaker 3: can be texting or on a phone call and you

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Speaker 3: can still have eye contact. You can still be sort

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Speaker 3: of giving that attention if your child's on the sports

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Speaker 3: field or on the playground, while still dealing with other

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Speaker 3: things that would normally take you physically away from the child.

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Speaker 3: So we did find a difference in terms of immersive forms.

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Speaker 3: So if you're just scrolling social network sites and very

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Speaker 3: very immersed the effect is not as positive when compared to,

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Speaker 3: for instance, phone calls. So that's one. But two, I

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Speaker 3: think you know, parents are in this position where they're

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Speaker 3: dealing with norms right, So they we're with our child,

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Speaker 3: but the outside world also expects our ready attention, and

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Speaker 3: so it's sort of navigating that. It's sort of choosing

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Speaker 3: your time, I would say, in terms of when your

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Speaker 3: child needs you. But I'm also going to counter with

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Speaker 3: the fact that exactly a warm and supportive parent child

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Speaker 3: relationship give good communication with your child, and a parent

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Speaker 3: not bringing stress over into the parent child relationship. And

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Speaker 3: there are ways that smartphones can actually support that, right,

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Speaker 3: So I can reach out to family, I can find information,

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Speaker 3: I can sort of help myself cope in other ways.

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Speaker 3: I can physically be with my child rather than being

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Speaker 3: at work. But it's also, as you say, it's navigating, right,

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Speaker 3: and so sorry, if it's an emergency call, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm telling my kids, this is only going to be

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Speaker 3: a minute, it's only work, and then I will come back.

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Speaker 3: So it's navigating. I would argue those norms. But again,

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Speaker 3: this finding also is when we're keeping that displacement from

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Speaker 3: key time with your family at a lower level.

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Speaker 2: We'll continue the conversation with doctor Catherine Medecki right after this.

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Speaker 1: It's that Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 4: US screens creating tension at home Tweens, Teens and Screens

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Speaker 4: is a weobinart of God Families to healthy, safe superscreen solutions.

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Speaker 4: Bye today at happyfamilies dot com dotu slash shop.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 2: Poor Parent who Just Wants is now. My name is

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Speaker 2: doctor Justin Colson, and we're continuing in conversation with doctor

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Speaker 2: Catherine Medeki, a psychology researcher who looks at the way

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Speaker 2: our technology use interacts with our families. So I'm really

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Speaker 2: curious about how there is that positive relationship between warmth

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Speaker 2: and smartphone usage, so long as it's not interference. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So interference seems to be the key word. If I'm

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Speaker 2: doing something and I'm the duration of the call is

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Speaker 2: lengthy and I'm being interrupted and it's getting in the

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Speaker 2: way of my relationship, that doesn't have any redeeming value

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Speaker 2: or quality at all. But generally, if I'm using my

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Speaker 2: phone more, I can still be warm to my child.

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Speaker 2: And I'd love for you to just explain how that

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Speaker 2: might work in a practical sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, first of all, let me step back and

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Speaker 3: say these are cross sectional data. Yes, yes, it's kin

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Speaker 3: one hand. Yeah, and so at one hand, this was

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Speaker 3: speaking to arguments that really we're sort of getting under

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Speaker 3: my you know, grilling my onion, so to speak. This

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Speaker 3: idea sort of phones are to blame, which of course

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Speaker 3: suggests if we just took away the phones, everyone will

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Speaker 3: be a better parent, which of course we know is

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Speaker 3: not the case. So on one hand, I'm not saying

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Speaker 3: that if everyone gets a phone or uses their phone

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Speaker 3: worse somehow they're going to be a warmer parent by

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Speaker 3: any means. But I think the reality is we use

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Speaker 3: our phones for a variety in a variety of ways

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Speaker 3: across the day. It's embedded in our lives, and to

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Speaker 3: the extent that we're sort of negotiating that effectively in

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Speaker 3: our family system, it's certainly not taking away from the relationship,

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Speaker 3: if that makes sense. I would also say, in terms

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Speaker 3: of we know that, for instance, moderate amounts of online coping,

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Speaker 3: so using the phone to get information for short term distraction,

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Speaker 3: to bring you down when you're stressed, for reaching out

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Speaker 3: for support, we know in other research that that can

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Speaker 3: be really effective for coping with stressors. So on one hand,

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Speaker 3: I suspect having that connection is helping me be a

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Speaker 3: better parent. I think also these parents are also probably

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Speaker 3: navigating very well or better than others in terms of

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Speaker 3: that family dynamic that Okay, when I need to be

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Speaker 3: on the phone, you know it's not speaking and not

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Speaker 3: wanting to spend time with you. I need to do

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Speaker 3: this and then I'm back with you. If that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like what the study is doing is giving

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Speaker 2: credit to parents for being able to be selective around

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Speaker 2: when they're using their devices and when they're not. So

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Speaker 2: you use the example before. If your child's on the

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Speaker 2: sport field, you don't have to pay attention to the

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Speaker 2: cricket game for the next four hours. You can just

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Speaker 2: look up every now and again and clap your hands

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Speaker 2: and say well done, well bold, and then get back

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Speaker 2: to your emails or the book that you're reading. Like

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Speaker 2: you said, it's not just smartphone technology. If we got

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Speaker 2: rid of the smartphones, parents would still be reading books,

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Speaker 2: they'd still be watching television, they'd still be distracted with

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Speaker 2: any number of other things. The other thing that I

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Speaker 2: was going to say is just this idea of it

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Speaker 2: being cross sectional or correlational research. So there's a correlation

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Speaker 2: between warmth and smartphone use. That is, it could be

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Speaker 2: argued that parents who are using their smartphones more tend

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Speaker 2: to be warmer, but it could also be that warmer

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Speaker 2: parents tend to use their smartphone more. In other words,

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Speaker 2: if you're the kind of person who is social and

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Speaker 2: amenable and nurturing in relationships offline, you're probably going to

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Speaker 2: be doing that online as well, not just with your family,

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Speaker 2: but with your friends and with that social network that

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Speaker 2: exists inside the device.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good point as long as the displacement

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Speaker 3: is low. So actually, if we just look at time

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Speaker 3: with parenting so presently, we found almost no relationship, which

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Speaker 3: is interesting because that's not sort of what you know,

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Speaker 3: we've taken as law that you know, straight smartphone use

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Speaker 3: was associated with problems in the family. But you're absolutely correct,

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Speaker 3: you could interpret that two ways.

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Speaker 2: So when you look at this study and sort of

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Speaker 2: pull out the real take homes, what encouragement would you

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Speaker 2: give to parents when it comes to the choices that

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Speaker 2: they're making around having devices active and usable at the

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Speaker 2: same time that family members might be around.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, you know, this is something we're

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Speaker 3: all dealing with, and I'm sure you say this to

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Speaker 3: parents as well, that I don't think guilt and parenting

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Speaker 3: go together. Well at all. I think it's counterproductive. The

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Speaker 3: reality is smartphones are in our day to day life, right,

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Speaker 3: and so letting ourselves off the hook about you know,

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Speaker 3: what it's about is as you would be saying to

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Speaker 3: parents as well, it's about warm relationships. It's strong communication.

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Speaker 3: It's reducing the stress spillover with kids. It's being available

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Speaker 3: at times that are ultimately you know, necessary to be there.

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Speaker 3: So it's making smart choices, but also taking care of

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Speaker 3: yourself as a parent and communicating with your kids and

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Speaker 3: you know, partners those around you why you're on the

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Speaker 3: phone when you're on the phone, and making it clear

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Speaker 3: that it's not due to sort of not being interested

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Speaker 3: in your child, and making it clear you are available

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Speaker 3: at key times.

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Speaker 2: Yeah great, I love that. So just to summarize, make

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Speaker 2: sure that I didn't miss anything. There are sometimes where

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Speaker 2: you really want to make sure that you're available and

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Speaker 2: get the phone out of the environment so you can

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Speaker 2: connect and can concentrate. Sometimes is simply more important than others.

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Speaker 2: But secondly, make sure that you utilizing you devices in

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Speaker 2: a way that is restorative and generative for you, so

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Speaker 2: that when you put the device down, you can actually

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Speaker 2: be at your best for the people that you love

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Speaker 2: the most. Absolutely that's doctor Catherine Medecki. You can hear

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Speaker 2: our full interview on episode one hundred and twenty one

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Speaker 2: of the Parenting and Perspective podcast series, and tomorrow Kylie

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Speaker 2: and I back with a new episode of a Happy

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Speaker 2: Families podcast. We look forward as well to giving you

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Speaker 2: a whole new bunch of episodes as soon as the

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Speaker 2: school holidays are over. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd

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Speaker 2: love it for you to jump onto the Apple podcast app,

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Speaker 2: leave us a rating and review. The ratings and reviews

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Speaker 2: are the way that other people find out about the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Apple prioritizes podcasts they get lots of ratings and reviews.

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Speaker 3: Especially the five star ratings.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruhland from

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Our executive producer is Craig Bruce, and we

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Speaker 2: just love doing everything we can to help your family

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Speaker 2: be happier. If you'd like morro fol about how your

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Speaker 2: family can be happier, keep listening to the podcast or

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Speaker 2: visit us at Happy Families dot com dot a you

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Speaker 2: ye