Speaker 1: Well, well, well, who would have thought me and Ash
Speaker 1: coming into your ear holes?
Speaker 2: Weird situation for everybody. We have a bonus EP going
Speaker 2: straight into your ear holes. Matt tell us who it is.
Speaker 1: It is Sean Zepps. He is a hilarious content creator.
Speaker 1: You can find his stuff on Instagram with TikTok. Sean
Speaker 1: Zepps is his handle. He's also a podcast host and
Speaker 1: an author.
Speaker 2: Yes, his book, not like other dads. And I have
Speaker 2: to say he's a very lovely and funny man and
Speaker 2: he was very welcoming. He had us in his house,
Speaker 2: couldn't get rid of us.
Speaker 1: It's a great story. It's the very first time we've
Speaker 1: had a same sex couple. Sean is married to Josh
Speaker 1: and they have twins, Cooper and Stella.
Speaker 2: Yes, and they are six years old, so he's got
Speaker 2: a little bit more experience than you and I, Matt,
Speaker 2: So I believe there will be some advice. It's a
Speaker 2: great chat, but we do touch on some mental health
Speaker 2: topics and if you or anyone is struggling, please reach
Speaker 2: out to lifel on thirteen eleven fourteen or Beyond Blue
Speaker 2: on one three hundred double two four six three six.
Speaker 3: All right, let's get into the episode.
Speaker 1: Welcome to three Doting Dads.
Speaker 4: I'm Mattie Jays and I'm Sean's Apps.
Speaker 1: And this is a podcast that is all about parenting.
Speaker 1: It is the good, the bad.
Speaker 2: And the relatable.
Speaker 1: And I will say definitely on this episode there will
Speaker 1: be some advice. Yes, none given from neither myself, your
Speaker 1: pads and your pans out. You're about to learn something, Sean.
Speaker 1: I need to apologize for the amount of faffing that
Speaker 1: we have taken this morning. We got here an hour ago.
Speaker 2: We are pretty good at fafing.
Speaker 4: Sorry, no, I love it.
Speaker 1: We will get out of your house before nightfall, we
Speaker 1: promise you. What time do the kids come home?
Speaker 4: Three o'clock? Yeah, right after three.
Speaker 2: I have to work.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Just stay outside until we finished. I
Speaker 1: would like to know Sean to start off the conversation,
Speaker 1: a young Sean.
Speaker 2: He's young, now, young girl. Still you can't just go
Speaker 2: straight in like that.
Speaker 1: Sorry, apologies, A younger beautiful Sean. Was he always wanting
Speaker 1: to have a family?
Speaker 4: Yeah, interesting question, because it's like a roller coaster ride.
Speaker 4: When I was a kid, I really wanted to be
Speaker 4: a dad. I had an awesome dad, still alive, Still awesome,
Speaker 4: but a really great role model as a father and
Speaker 4: an amazingly involved mother. And so when I was really young,
Speaker 4: long before I realized who I was, we'll get there, yes, society,
Speaker 4: but you know all this stuff in your mind, I
Speaker 4: just thought, one hundred percent that's what I would do.
Speaker 4: I was raised Roman Catholic, very religious family, and so
Speaker 4: the idea of you husband and wife and children, especially
Speaker 4: through the lens of the church, was just at the
Speaker 4: very top of my list. And so if you met me,
Speaker 4: like really really young, five six, seven, eight nine and
Speaker 4: asked me like what I wanted to be, I actually
Speaker 4: would have said a mother.
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, quite an astronaut.
Speaker 4: No, I would have been like a ballet dancer, superstar
Speaker 4: and a mom. I just thought such an early idea
Speaker 4: and clearly as signed my homosexuality coming outside. But I
Speaker 4: just thought a dad at that time like meant something,
Speaker 4: and a mom was like really crafty and involved and cooking,
Speaker 4: and my mom was a stay at home mom, and
Speaker 4: I just thought that was really cool. Like, long before
Speaker 4: I knew what gender was or sexuality, I was just like,
Speaker 4: I would like that. I don't want to work, I
Speaker 4: want to be at home with the kids. I want
Speaker 4: to have six of them. I'm going to be a
Speaker 4: really good mom six kids. I mean back then I
Speaker 4: just thought marrier. Right then I realized for you know,
Speaker 4: you're a dude, that's not an option for you. And
Speaker 4: then I realized I was gay. So it's like, in order,
Speaker 4: you have these massive roadblocks that go, well, you can't
Speaker 4: be a mom, You're definitely going to be a dad
Speaker 4: and that means something. Back then it meant something.
Speaker 1: Can I ask what age is this roughly where you
Speaker 1: have the realization of who you are sexually?
Speaker 4: Eleven?
Speaker 2: Eleven? Yeah, oh my goodness.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Ten is when I mean I knew around eight
Speaker 4: that I definitely liked guys, but eleven is like you
Speaker 4: do not like you keep trying and praying, dude, but
Speaker 4: the woman parts, you know, not waking up. God, it's
Speaker 4: not helping you. But eleven is like, oh shit, for sure,
Speaker 4: this is the thing. And around that time is when
Speaker 4: I just decided to kill off the parent dream. You
Speaker 4: got to like, just there weren't examples. You couldn't get
Speaker 4: married legally. I didn't know a single queer person in
Speaker 4: any way, shape or form, And on top of that,
Speaker 4: the ones I did now that you might read about
Speaker 4: or see in a movie they didn't have children. So
Speaker 4: I just decided cool, Like, if this is your thing
Speaker 4: and it's going to cause drama and you're probably gonna
Speaker 4: get kicked out of your house and you're definitely going
Speaker 4: to get kicked out of the church, like just bury
Speaker 4: that dream.
Speaker 1: Is this I'm assuming over an extended period of time
Speaker 1: that you'll just shoveling and stream into the basement and
Speaker 1: shutting the door.
Speaker 4: Absolutely. It's the technical term would be internalized homophobia. Right,
Speaker 4: You're like taking all the homophobia from out there in
Speaker 4: the world and you start to just bury it and
Speaker 4: swallow it, and it gets bigger and bigger. The religious
Speaker 4: element is quite interesting because you're also, on top of
Speaker 4: that trying to apply pressure on yourself to be a
Speaker 4: good Christian boy. Right, you want to get through it.
Speaker 4: You want to like go to heaven if you can.
Speaker 4: So I thought, okay, well I don't want to be
Speaker 4: a sinner, and I did, so like why not just
Speaker 4: not do any of that? Like why not you won't date?
Speaker 4: You want to act on it, and yeah, figure out
Speaker 4: how to be straight lie and so yeah, I guess
Speaker 4: like between eleven and all the way up until twenty two. Wow,
Speaker 4: I was like, that is you are never going to
Speaker 4: be a parent. So that's the roller coaster. It's like
Speaker 4: I started wanting nothing more but to be like my mom,
Speaker 4: and then I decided you will never be a parent,
Speaker 4: and then boom, the world starts to change and you
Speaker 4: get to wake up to like, oh crap, Maybe you
Speaker 4: can go back to that dream and revisit it. Maybe
Speaker 4: you could be a dad.
Speaker 1: When you're pretending to be straight, was it anything that
Speaker 1: you pretended to like that you didn't like?
Speaker 4: But this is a straight People think that's so interesting
Speaker 4: because sos.
Speaker 5: Vagina just a while. Yes, in the that's all I
Speaker 5: have to say.
Speaker 2: Very good question. I mean that is the other than
Speaker 2: sexual organs more in the sport.
Speaker 6: But yeah, you know, hard to unpick because the truth
Speaker 6: is who I am today is built up of most
Speaker 6: of those like I think we all do it.
Speaker 4: We're young and we just like want to be like
Speaker 4: our dads or want to be.
Speaker 2: Like yeah, you fit in with that. Even with your mates,
Speaker 2: so it's like they might like something as a as
Speaker 2: a hetro. Yeah, it's like some mates might like something
Speaker 2: that you kind of don't, but just because you want
Speaker 2: to feed in with them.
Speaker 4: You like, yeah, me too, I love motocross, and then
Speaker 4: you can't unpick it. You're like, thirty years later you
Speaker 4: really like some forty one, and you're like, why do
Speaker 4: we like some?
Speaker 2: I was like when I was a kid, I really
Speaker 2: didn't like him that much. I was just like everyone
Speaker 2: else did exactly.
Speaker 4: I come from a sports family, like elite athletes. My mom,
Speaker 4: my dad, my brother, and my sister all went to
Speaker 4: college like full paid wow. And so if sports is
Speaker 4: the answer, like not, I'm a very big fan today
Speaker 4: of basketball and tennis and I watch every day and
Speaker 4: I'm like, watch the recaps from the States. But how
Speaker 4: much of that actually is just because I wanted my
Speaker 4: dad to think I was cool, like I had the
Speaker 4: lingo that he had, Or like, if we're going to
Speaker 4: go to games, am I going to be the one
Speaker 4: whose days at home and does like arts and crafts
Speaker 4: on the fucking table? Absolutely not. So yeah, probably sports
Speaker 4: is the answer. Even though it's very stereotypical, It's definitely true.
Speaker 2: I think you may have pretended to like like it
Speaker 2: for so long it became something that you actually really
Speaker 2: liked or lopd it.
Speaker 4: I often say to other people when they ask that question,
Speaker 4: are in the realm of how much of being a
Speaker 4: young boy, specifically trying to be macho, how much of
Speaker 4: that performance lives in me today?
Speaker 2: Mm?
Speaker 4: Like, my voice is definitely lower than the stereotype of
Speaker 4: oh my god, like the higher pitch kind of gay.
Speaker 4: And how much of the way that I talk was
Speaker 4: even shaped back then? When I'm talking to my dad
Speaker 4: in the morning, you know, I say a lot of
Speaker 4: words that me and my brother would say, like, hey man,
Speaker 4: hey bro, what's going up?
Speaker 2: Dude?
Speaker 4: I still talk that way. I don't know if I
Speaker 4: was being raised today. You know, modern parents are pretty
Speaker 4: cool with kids expressing themselves. If I wouldn't even sound
Speaker 4: like this, I have no idea.
Speaker 1: So then, in a world where your identity is so blurred,
Speaker 1: how nice was it to have that dream of being
Speaker 1: a dad be able to come back to life and
Speaker 1: be an opportunity again.
Speaker 4: Oh? It was pretty cool.
Speaker 2: Do you remember the moment?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Definitely. Josh and I met in New York City
Speaker 4: when I was twenty two, and he was like, don't
Speaker 4: have kids.
Speaker 1: Are we in a park?
Speaker 4: We We're in a We're all good romantic story. Had
Speaker 4: a football game doing and cross. We were literally in
Speaker 4: the bathroom line at a gay bar, so like you know,
Speaker 4: yeah before like app culture had kind of exploded, and.
Speaker 1: We probably just were next to each other.
Speaker 4: He was behind me. He was actually an asshole. He
Speaker 4: goes a Santa Claus called he wants his hat back,
Speaker 4: and I had like a red beanie on, and I
Speaker 4: was like, I literally said fuck you, dude, and he
Speaker 4: just walked away into the like dropped the comment and
Speaker 4: then booked it. And then maybe an hour later, I
Speaker 4: had the hat off, like tucked in my back pocket,
Speaker 4: like took it right off. I was like, you asshole.
Speaker 2: I don't want influenced you.
Speaker 4: You know, I don't want to look at Santa. And
Speaker 4: he came back and he was like, don't fucking listen
Speaker 4: to people like that. Like I was being like, don't listen. Well,
Speaker 4: you put the hat back on, so I like put
Speaker 4: it back on and then and then we wait out.
Speaker 2: Pushed me against the beautiful so.
Speaker 4: Uh like maybe like date four or five, he's like,
Speaker 4: do you want kids? And I was like absolutely not,
Speaker 4: of course not. What do you mean what fantasy world
Speaker 4: are you living in?
Speaker 1: Bro?
Speaker 4: Like you think we're gonna have kids? Can't even get married.
Speaker 4: Use this in twenty eleven. Okay, so like technically there
Speaker 4: were definitely queer people having children, but it was you know,
Speaker 4: they were juggling, they were doing it with their friends
Speaker 4: and turkey bastering in the bathroom, or you know, they
Speaker 4: were adopting, but it was the stories up until then
Speaker 4: we're few and far between.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I social media wasn't quite as at the forefront of either,
Speaker 2: so it wouldn't have been like you could go onto
Speaker 2: Instagram and follow someone's journey so closely.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you would have to have really like we
Speaker 4: went to adoption classes and you would see gay couples there,
Speaker 4: but it was still one out of the like.
Speaker 1: Fifty what's an adoption class.
Speaker 4: When you are considering doing adoption, like before you're alone. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you just go and like sit in an audience, you know,
Speaker 4: you're just in the back, and they teach you about
Speaker 4: it and they talk about the process. They have a
Speaker 4: panel of people have gone through the process. I guess
Speaker 4: like an info session would have been better.
Speaker 1: And being a same sex couple, are they welcoming to
Speaker 1: you or do you do you find that there was
Speaker 1: a level of judgment when you walk through the door.
Speaker 4: When you're a queer person, you do a lot of
Speaker 4: I was going to say, unnecessary, but very necessary research
Speaker 4: long before you put yourself in that uncomfortable situation. So
Speaker 4: we just found the ones that on their website said
Speaker 4: like LGBTQI friendly or whatever. So we were in an
Speaker 4: environment where they would be like you and your wife.
Speaker 5: Or.
Speaker 4: You two, or you but mostly you know, you're surrounded
Speaker 4: by mostly straight people. And so I just thought he
Speaker 4: was living in a fantasy land. And so over the
Speaker 4: course of maybe five years, Josh changed his tune and decided, well,
Speaker 4: I want of kids Becausehan doesn't want them and I
Speaker 4: want him. So we just you know, got married and
Speaker 4: just thought that wasn't going to happen. But then when
Speaker 4: you're living in New York City, it's a lot like
Speaker 4: I mean, there really isn't that many examples in Australia unfortunately.
Speaker 2: Pets.
Speaker 4: No pets, absolutely not.
Speaker 2: You think that maybe like a lot of people who
Speaker 2: think that they kind of have kids, they substitute it
Speaker 2: with pets.
Speaker 4: I'm sure they do. I mean, gays love nothing more
Speaker 4: than like.
Speaker 6: A little chill, a little baby dog or great yeah,
Speaker 6: but not for me.
Speaker 4: I was like, no, I can barely take care of myself.
Speaker 4: I was like twenty four years old. Yeah, New York City.
Speaker 4: I was not going to have it. Like the idea
Speaker 4: of having a dog in a city just stresses the
Speaker 4: shit out of me, Like those small little apartments. It
Speaker 4: was the size of this told you, I mean tons.
Speaker 2: I was a year later than like what you're sort
Speaker 2: of talking about, and I was like, there's fucking dogs.
Speaker 2: There's more dogs and paper.
Speaker 1: But so at this point, you're twenty four. Josh's a
Speaker 1: bit older.
Speaker 4: Though by decade. Yeah, yeah, so he has a decade
Speaker 4: on me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which I guess makes sense to why he was
Speaker 1: championing this cause.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it mattered a lot more to him
Speaker 4: ticking time, Like he was like, how much longer do
Speaker 4: I have? No, But he specifically said early on, like
Speaker 4: I don't want to be the dad who can't throw
Speaker 4: his kid up in the air, Like I don't want
Speaker 4: to start that far. And then what was funny is
Speaker 4: you just walking to New York City, one of the
Speaker 4: queerest cities in the world, right, and all of a
Speaker 4: sudden you're walking down the street and you start to
Speaker 4: see gay couples with children, like you know, you see one,
Speaker 4: and then five days later you see another, and then
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, you're in San Francisco or La
Speaker 4: where I worked, and you're just seeing right in front
Speaker 4: of your eyes like queer people and not just queer
Speaker 4: people with children, like normally happy. They seem like just
Speaker 4: like everyone else. And it just started to like seep
Speaker 4: into my brain because I think it's important the distinction
Speaker 4: to understand. It's not just am I willing to do this?
Speaker 4: Because people have been willing to put themselves in uncomfortable situations,
Speaker 4: Diverse people have been willing to take huge gambles. It's
Speaker 4: are you willing to do this and deal with the
Speaker 4: ramifications of it? And for me, the answer was no.
Speaker 4: And then you start to see people who genuinely don't
Speaker 4: seem afraid. You know, You're walking by a school pickup
Speaker 4: and there's gay dads who are like Billy and they
Speaker 4: seem you know, and the moms are talking to them,
Speaker 4: and I thought, Hey, maybe it's maybe all the stories
Speaker 4: you've told yourself, the fear that has lived inside of
Speaker 4: you forever and ever and ever, maybe it actually won't
Speaker 4: be scary.
Speaker 1: That must be so fucking hard to digest.
Speaker 2: It's like that's such a true comment too, like just
Speaker 2: around a really a lot of things like where you
Speaker 2: like the stories you've told you, So, yeah, what is
Speaker 2: probably way worse than the actual reality of it.
Speaker 4: Totally. I think the gay lived experience is an insular
Speaker 4: like your parents aren't like you, your siblings aren't like you,
Speaker 4: your neighbors aren't like you. When you're young, it's really
Speaker 4: hard to find other people like you, especially if you
Speaker 4: grow up in a small town like I did. So
Speaker 4: when you're older, it's easy to convince yourself that everything
Speaker 4: you're going through is just you, like no one else
Speaker 4: has ever thought.
Speaker 2: To have, no one else has gone through, this is
Speaker 2: just me.
Speaker 4: And then you're in the city and you're like, well,
Speaker 4: here's a lot of options, tons of people, and they
Speaker 4: seem cool, like they obviously went through the same journey
Speaker 4: you did, Like maybe it is possible.
Speaker 1: So did you guys initially go down the adoption route there?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we didn't know that there were other options.
Speaker 4: As informed and clever and savvy as we were. I
Speaker 4: just thought you foster or you adopt. So we went
Speaker 4: to some fostering sessions and realized right away that that
Speaker 4: wasn't going to work out for us. Just the emotional
Speaker 4: stress of potentially falling in love with a child and
Speaker 4: then having them go back to the family. I was like,
Speaker 4: I can't do that. It's beautiful. People should absolutely look
Speaker 4: into it if they can.
Speaker 2: And was there an expectation that you know, adopting was
Speaker 2: the right thing to do or the only option that
Speaker 2: you had. Was there like a big expectation on that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think definitely. And I remember when I talked
Speaker 4: to other people about having kids. I think the pressure
Speaker 4: they put specifically on queer people, it's like, you're going
Speaker 4: to adopt, right, they would say it. So you're like, yeah,
Speaker 4: I guess that is what I'm going to do. And
Speaker 4: if you google back then, like I I never I
Speaker 4: didn't see websites that were like gay people can do
Speaker 4: IVF Sarahacy, I didn't even know what that word was.
Speaker 4: The story goes I was on Facebook one day, as
Speaker 4: you do in twenty eleven, and some girl posts like pregnant,
Speaker 4: and I didn't even read the post. I just commented
Speaker 4: and was like, congratulations, so happy for you and your husband,
Speaker 4: And then she just sent me a DM that was like, Hey,
Speaker 4: not sure if you read the post, but I'm I'm sarrogate,
Speaker 4: like I'm caring for someone else, so it's actually not
Speaker 4: my and I was like, what are you talking about? What?
Speaker 4: I googled it right away and was like, oh my god,
Speaker 4: she's pregnant for someone else.
Speaker 2: That's wild yea.
Speaker 4: And she said, when this pregnancy is over, I would
Speaker 4: love to carry for you and Josh, oh my, And
Speaker 4: then all of a sudden, you go from having no
Speaker 4: idea what this option is too, this is my option.
Speaker 4: She is going to carry my children, like you know.
Speaker 2: It must be like such a surreal moment. And then
Speaker 2: you guys going because someone's willing to do that for us.
Speaker 2: Holy shit.
Speaker 1: There's a few different pieces to the puzzle, right because
Speaker 1: you've got you've got someone to carry, but you do
Speaker 1: use her egg.
Speaker 4: So you definitely can. So there are lots of options.
Speaker 4: There is anonymous donors for eggs, anonymous donors for sperm,
Speaker 4: so you could not use you or your partner at
Speaker 4: all and just take a sperm and an egg donor
Speaker 4: create the embryo, and you could have children that are
Speaker 4: not biologically connected to either one of you for whatever reason,
Speaker 4: maybe you have both of you and your partner. Would
Speaker 4: that be safe.
Speaker 2: I don't want to sound horrible a cost effective option
Speaker 2: that way, No, I mean, yeah, how do you put
Speaker 2: a pross on a human life. I'm not trying to.
Speaker 4: Say no, it's now. These are good questions because you
Speaker 4: have to pay for both yea and yeah. There's a
Speaker 4: cost attached to both of them. There's a cost attached
Speaker 4: sometimes to the retrieval process. So if you select someone
Speaker 4: who hasn't gone through the process, who hasn't donated to
Speaker 4: a bank either for egg or sperm, you got to
Speaker 4: pay for them to go through the whole pot. So
Speaker 4: what a lot of people do is the most people
Speaker 4: who do serrogce or IVF for straight is they take
Speaker 4: the sperm or the eggs from whatever partner can give naturally,
Speaker 4: and then they combine. And so you can do that
Speaker 4: where one partner gives and then the eggs or the
Speaker 4: sperm come from a bank and then I guess the other.
Speaker 4: That's like the two IVF process. So for us, we
Speaker 4: had to throw a massive spanner in the works of
Speaker 4: the story. I started telling everyone that we were going
Speaker 4: to do surrogacy, and then someone came forward from my
Speaker 4: family and offered to donate eggs.
Speaker 2: Wow, I can't imagine the feeling like how amazing that
Speaker 2: would have been.
Speaker 1: Also, I guess there must be a little cases though,
Speaker 1: where someone is like, that sounds great, I'd love to
Speaker 1: help out, and then when it comes to the actual point,
Speaker 1: they're actually, this is yeah.
Speaker 4: Oh so many girlfriends of mine had said yeah, I'd love.
Speaker 2: I am Now.
Speaker 4: I think that whole three month period, because it was
Speaker 4: three months really between finding out that there was you know,
Speaker 4: we would go down the surrogacy path and then getting
Speaker 4: the offer. The world has been pretty dark, like if
Speaker 4: you just use social media, the news consumptioning, it's easy
Speaker 4: to get wrapped up and like things are not great.
Speaker 4: And at that time Trump states that's what it's like
Speaker 4: to live in America. At that time, it's like a
Speaker 4: lot of tension. Then you have these two people who
Speaker 4: are like, I will put my life on the line
Speaker 4: because we're not talking about like, you know, pregnancy. Both
Speaker 4: of you do like you're literally risking your life for
Speaker 4: a stranger. All of a sudden, I thought, maybe the
Speaker 4: world's not so shit, Like this is pretty impressive.
Speaker 2: It's pretty cool.
Speaker 4: Selflessness to a t And then you think of my
Speaker 4: family member, what outside of the physical ramifications of going
Speaker 4: through an egg retrieval, the psychological layers of being around
Speaker 4: those children potentially for the rest of their lives and yours,
Speaker 4: and to always know that there is a biological component
Speaker 4: and there's a lot of layers there. For sure. You
Speaker 4: got you know, she went to therapy and she did
Speaker 4: that work, and before she brought it up to us,
Speaker 4: she did all of that stuff. So she did a
Speaker 4: lot of one.
Speaker 1: I'm assuming because it's a family member. Josh used his spem.
Speaker 4: You know that you were the first person to not
Speaker 4: immediately go So who gave this car? Good for you,
Speaker 4: Thank you. I'm always like if me and my family
Speaker 4: member maybe embryos that would not turn up. Yeah, So
Speaker 4: the decision was easy, Like, once you have that egg offer,
Speaker 4: it's just one hundred percent get Josh tested a okay,
Speaker 4: good to go make the embryos.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: So I guess in a sense there is a biological
Speaker 1: connection with your children to.
Speaker 4: Both Yeah, did you was it.
Speaker 1: Any different you're having children that are not from your sperm.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a good question. I think for probably six
Speaker 4: months I was like, Okay, you got to come to
Speaker 4: terms with the fact that he's going to be the
Speaker 4: biological dad, and you're not going to have that relationship.
Speaker 4: When I looked into like the science of the way
Speaker 4: in which family members are connected. I don't know if
Speaker 4: you've ever met someone you're like, you look so much
Speaker 4: like your uncle, you look so much like your grandfather,
Speaker 4: but you don't look like your father, you don't look
Speaker 4: like your mother. So I thought, maybe there's this hope
Speaker 4: that my kids are going to look just like me.
Speaker 4: And you've seen them. They look just like me. They
Speaker 4: look a lot more like me sometimes than my husband.
Speaker 4: And people say that, and I'm sure that feels like
Speaker 4: God to him because he's like, it's me.
Speaker 2: But even even for like for us, like I'll say
Speaker 2: to Matt, Lola looks so much like Laura, but Marley
Speaker 2: looks so much like Matt. And my mom was like yeah.
Speaker 2: My mom was like, you just met these kids. And
Speaker 2: then she's like, oh, I see a lot of Laura,
Speaker 2: and I see a lot of metal on Laines. And
Speaker 2: then same with my kids, like my son is like
Speaker 2: mini me, you know, like but then some people be like, oh,
Speaker 2: I see so much people in Oscar. What hell?
Speaker 1: But it does it does hurt when when people say,
Speaker 1: you know, along the lines of you didn't really get
Speaker 1: a looking with Lola. It's just a spitting image of Laura.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh my yeah, my jeans are weak
Speaker 1: like Oscar.
Speaker 2: So like my half of my family, part of my
Speaker 2: family's indigenous. So Oscar really got that it's really dark.
Speaker 2: He had a Mongolian patch, like he's he is an
Speaker 2: indigenous kid. Then my daughter is she is pale, she's
Speaker 2: I always joke that she glows in the dark and
Speaker 2: a redhead. But I went to an indigenous school with
Speaker 2: a lot of redhead indigenous kids. But like it's like
Speaker 2: a lot of people be like, look at her and
Speaker 2: then look at me, and they go, she's not your
Speaker 2: like as a joke, and I'm like, well, I'm just
Speaker 2: look at it was like the Milkman's kid probably, but
Speaker 2: like yeah, it's it's like it does hurt.
Speaker 1: Sometimes and you're like, oh shit, do you think do
Speaker 1: you think it a great deal? Knowing that they had
Speaker 1: a load of, you know, appearance wise, very similar to
Speaker 1: yourself and your.
Speaker 4: Family, Yeah, I think so. I mean, I'll be honest,
Speaker 4: I did a lot of work long before we made
Speaker 4: the decision to do it, because once you decide you
Speaker 4: want to have kids. You have to decide can you
Speaker 4: deal with all of this? Can you financially throw down
Speaker 4: the amount of money that is required to go through
Speaker 4: IVF and pay as arrogate all of that? Right, it's
Speaker 4: hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's the average person couldn't
Speaker 4: even do it without taking out a huge long So
Speaker 4: you got to do all that, and then psychologically you
Speaker 4: got to decide am I cool with this? And I
Speaker 4: just decided really early on, like I just want to
Speaker 4: be a dad, Like I don't give a shit. I
Speaker 4: don't care the color of their skin. I don't care
Speaker 4: what their gender is. I don't care how we get
Speaker 4: these children. You know, for a lot of straight people,
Speaker 4: you know, but don't boom, it just happens like it's
Speaker 4: an accident. You're like, here we go, shit, sorry. So
Speaker 4: I think for me it was like listen, you know
Speaker 4: you're already different. You got to hack the system to
Speaker 4: make this dream a reality. Who cares? Who cares? There
Speaker 4: is not a single moment that I've ever looked at
Speaker 4: my children since they were born and been like, do
Speaker 4: you know how much it costs to bring you this world?
Speaker 4: Like I tell them, I've never used like my lack
Speaker 4: of biological connection. They don't know that they know exactly
Speaker 4: where they came from and how our family was made.
Speaker 4: But they don't think I'm less than than Josh right,
Speaker 4: and I went, it's an emotional story.
Speaker 2: He saw it.
Speaker 4: He is crying.
Speaker 1: Sorry.
Speaker 4: I tried to hold that in so bad that it
Speaker 4: made it work. So yeah, it's pretty good.
Speaker 1: And so the kids were born in the States.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's not legal to do what we did.
Speaker 2: Can you just elaborate on that phone? Part of it
Speaker 2: is not legal.
Speaker 4: So there are two types of surrogacy. There's altruistic or
Speaker 4: you do it out of the goodness of your heart.
Speaker 4: So your siblings, your they could totally do it for you,
Speaker 4: but they would need to do it for free, so
Speaker 4: they would not get compensation. Right, So the moment you
Speaker 4: would pay someone for the time going to the hospital,
Speaker 4: the clothes that they need to wear, the food that
Speaker 4: they need to eat, all the visits, the actual surgery,
Speaker 4: the time off from work, like you know, compensating for
Speaker 4: what they're doing for your family.
Speaker 2: And this could be sorry, this could be a really
Speaker 2: dumb question, and I apologize if it is. How much
Speaker 2: do you pay someone to do all of that.
Speaker 4: So I think at the top range of like Beyonce,
Speaker 4: it's probably like hundreds of thousands of dollars, like eight
Speaker 4: hundred thousands. There's estimates about her specific story because it's
Speaker 4: similar to ours with the twins, anywhere between like five
Speaker 4: and eight hundred thousand. The average is like thirty to
Speaker 4: fifty to seventy five. And that's based off of the
Speaker 4: sarrogates experience giving birth. So if she has, like our sarrogate,
Speaker 4: had three children already, her family's finished, she carried all
Speaker 4: three to term, didn't need any, didn't have ce Suasashi,
Speaker 4: she's perfect. Someone like that who who would probably charge
Speaker 4: a little bit more potentially than someone who this is
Speaker 4: their first time. Wow, but you know that thirty to
Speaker 4: like seventy five ranges, probably they're going cost So.
Speaker 1: Then you've been through this very long and difficult, sometimes confusing,
Speaker 1: expensive journey. You're now a dad, the children are born.
Speaker 1: Is it everything you've dreamt.
Speaker 4: Of being a parent? Oh? God, No, it's like so shitty.
Speaker 4: I mean, listen, we know it's just like kids don't
Speaker 4: go easy on you because you're gay. They don't go easy.
Speaker 4: They don't know your sexual heality, Well, society doesn't care
Speaker 4: really at all, Like they're all the additional elements that
Speaker 4: get you there, Like once the child is in your hand,
Speaker 4: it's just as difficult as everybody else's. I think the
Speaker 4: one thing I have going for me and people who
Speaker 4: struggled to conceive straight couples who went down eleven you know,
Speaker 4: sometimes you'll hear those stories, they've gone down seven cycles eleven.
Speaker 4: The only difference is in the beginning you are absolutely
Speaker 4: a lot more thankful and gracious with yourself. When things
Speaker 4: are really difficult, you constantly check in and you're like,
Speaker 4: so I had this conversation with myself and I still do.
Speaker 4: Or I'll look in the mirror and be like, do
Speaker 4: you understand that for all of human history, all of it,
Speaker 4: the whole entire time, people like you couldn't even get
Speaker 4: married the whole time, All for all of human history,
Speaker 4: people like you who loved like you do couldn't have kids. Yea,
Speaker 4: and you just happen to be born in the exact
Speaker 4: fucking decade. That shit's crazy. So when parents, when parenting
Speaker 4: is really stressful, which is you know, every single day
Speaker 4: you're fighting with your partner, I do have these moments
Speaker 4: where I look in the mirror and I'm like, bro,
Speaker 4: you do not understand what an amazing lucky gift you had.
Speaker 4: And that does help like ten percent of the time.
Speaker 1: Because can I ask that could do two things? Put
Speaker 1: wind in your sale, but then also put a huge
Speaker 1: amount of guilt on your shoulders if you can't snap
Speaker 1: out of it. And if you're like, I'm so fucking
Speaker 1: lucky and I'm not appreciating this, I'm not loving it
Speaker 1: with every fiver of my body. I'm a piece of shit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good point. It's interesting I haven't gone
Speaker 4: down the negative path so much because, to be honest,
Speaker 4: every parent who's listening to this knows like there's not
Speaker 4: a lot that can coach you out of a shitty day.
Speaker 4: It just it's pretty stressed.
Speaker 2: Once you're in it, you're in it.
Speaker 4: It's intense. And I never on a day to day basis,
Speaker 4: I don't think about my sexuality. Ever. I'm not like
Speaker 4: walking to the cafe being like here, I am walking
Speaker 4: a flat it doesn't happen.
Speaker 2: You put your pinky out.
Speaker 4: See, But the moments where I am reminded are around
Speaker 4: other parents. Yeah, so you are constantly confronted with the
Speaker 4: fact that you're just a little bit different when you're
Speaker 4: filling out forms or at the doctor's off and you
Speaker 4: have to cross out mother and p father.
Speaker 1: But I'm always surprised. I don't spoken about it before elsewhere,
Speaker 1: and it's just a sign of my naivety, I guess.
Speaker 1: But a mother's group for you, that was something that
Speaker 1: was very difficult. Can you explain that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, listen, I moved to a new country with two
Speaker 4: month old twins. My husband had been gone for twelve years,
Speaker 4: so even though he's coming home, the world has changed.
Speaker 4: Like his mates have kids that are as old as
Speaker 4: you know, fifteen all the way down, so they're busy
Speaker 4: with their lives. I left my job the day that
Speaker 4: the kids were born, and so I don't have a job,
Speaker 4: I don't have friends. Josh's family didn't live here at
Speaker 4: the time. I'm just starting fresh. And on top of that,
Speaker 4: I'm a stay at home down with twins, and so
Speaker 4: I thought, I gotta get into a parenting group. I
Speaker 4: have to, like or else, Like, what am I going
Speaker 4: to do? And so I just went to the New
Speaker 4: South Wales government website and started searching around and I
Speaker 4: called the local hospital and I was like, Hi, I've
Speaker 4: just moved to Balmain and I'm just wondering if you
Speaker 4: could connect me with a local parenting group. She was like,
Speaker 4: I'm confused. Did you get birth here, sir? But she
Speaker 4: was like, you didn't get birth here? Yes it is,
Speaker 4: and so they couldn't help me. They were like, really sorry,
Speaker 4: but if you get birth here, we can connect you
Speaker 4: with that specific group. So but don't worry. The government
Speaker 4: website has information you'll be able to find something. I
Speaker 4: logged on and back then there was just mothers groups
Speaker 4: and I thought, well, I'll just find the local mothers group.
Speaker 4: Couldn't figure it out through the website, went to the
Speaker 4: Facebook group. You got to apply for the new South
Speaker 4: Wales Mother's group. You have to apply and I obviously
Speaker 4: didn't get accepted. I'm a dude, like they didn't welcome me.
Speaker 4: I'm still waiting on the acceptance.
Speaker 2: We should check on that.
Speaker 4: And it's pending. And so I decided, okay, well, if
Speaker 4: it's not working through that formal process, just go up
Speaker 4: to the mother's groups. I went to the park, you know,
Speaker 4: five days a week in Balmain, and I saw that
Speaker 4: there was a group of women who were meeting every
Speaker 4: Tuesday and Thursday. No joke like psycho on my pH.
Speaker 2: Like what she just did? Do? And I behave with
Speaker 2: two kids.
Speaker 6: I went to school for active good morning, Hi ladies,
Speaker 6: you've got.
Speaker 4: But I was like, those are my ones because all
Speaker 4: their kids are the same age. That's all I was
Speaker 4: looking for, was like are they around the same age?
Speaker 4: And so I slowly befriended one of them, who sometimes
Speaker 4: was there on her own. She was very nice to me,
Speaker 4: and then I just asked one day. I was like, hey,
Speaker 4: I'm new our kids are the same age, Like are
Speaker 4: you accepting new members?
Speaker 1: Is there a form?
Speaker 4: Really nice, I swear, and she they all this woman
Speaker 4: looked at me and she just had the look in
Speaker 4: her eyes of like I'm gonna let you down, bro.
Speaker 4: But she was like, I'm really sorry. We don't feel
Speaker 4: comfortable having a guy in the group.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 4: To be honest, I got it in the moment. I'm
Speaker 4: still a little upset about it. But in the moment,
Speaker 4: I thought, our kids are brand new, they're all two
Speaker 4: months old. And her answer was like, we're talking about
Speaker 4: some serious shit, like we're talking about bloody. She told me,
Speaker 4: like I think what she said, was like, we're talking
Speaker 4: about like Vagina's ripping open to buttholes. And I was like, listen,
Speaker 4: I can handle that. You don't know what game, bloody buttles,
Speaker 4: that's nothing you're supposed to say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would be like, whoa.
Speaker 1: It's a bit of an asshole move.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The number one part of my book that I get
Speaker 4: contacted by by far eighty percent of women who reach
Speaker 4: out is just because of that story, and fifty percent
Speaker 4: of them are like, I totally get why they said no,
Speaker 4: because in that early phase, yeah, you want to go
Speaker 4: to that table and rip on your husband, just want
Speaker 4: to rip on them. And then here at the table
Speaker 4: is a dude like who might Yeah, he's a spy.
Speaker 4: I'm literally a spy. And I can't say to them,
Speaker 4: don't worry, I'm the wife in the relationship. I get
Speaker 4: it too. None of that means anything. Also, they don't
Speaker 4: know me. I'm random. Yeah, and most of the time
Speaker 4: when I'm at the playground. And I'm sure you guys
Speaker 4: can relate to this, but in those early days in Balmain,
Speaker 4: at least, there weren't a lot of dads out there,
Speaker 4: and when there were, we didn't like we had awkward chats,
Speaker 4: but the moms didn't talk to me. Also, I'm young
Speaker 4: and beautiful. They were confused. I think they thought I
Speaker 4: was threatened. You just say to me all the time,
Speaker 4: like how long have you been with the kids? Like
Speaker 4: their whole lives? But I think, you know, sometimes I look,
Speaker 4: I address the way I dress, like I think it's
Speaker 4: confusing to people, like what are you doing here? Clearly homosexual?
Speaker 1: Like what are you doing?
Speaker 4: You must be a nanny. So they just ignored me.
Speaker 4: So I think I just decided in that moment, like
Speaker 4: that's not going to be for you. So you're going
Speaker 4: to have to figure out your own way. And so
Speaker 4: I just didn't parenting.
Speaker 2: So it would have made you feel really really isolated.
Speaker 2: I don't know where we would be without them in
Speaker 2: a way, so I can imagine that would have been really,
Speaker 2: really tough.
Speaker 1: Who became your biggest support network?
Speaker 4: Then I didn't have one. So I met my you know,
Speaker 4: my best parenting friend, and eighteen months and wow, okay,
Speaker 4: so I didn't time. I did it so well. But
Speaker 4: I guess like the elephant in the room as I spiraled,
Speaker 4: So it wasn't like I just skipped through the eighteen
Speaker 4: months by myself. I just decided to be isolated. I
Speaker 4: obviously have a great husband, but he was working full
Speaker 4: time and yeah, yeah, I just decided, you'll have to
Speaker 4: figure it out by yourself. And that's what I've since
Speaker 4: learned because the government has changed their policy and now
Speaker 4: they're you go on the website and there are fathers
Speaker 4: scripts and parent groups and fathers.
Speaker 2: As they totally should. Yeah, especially like I know for me,
Speaker 2: I've got mate, I've got friends that as as guys
Speaker 2: have sort of have isolated themselves in that early in
Speaker 2: those early moments as well. And since Matt and I
Speaker 2: did a mental health episode last year and since then,
Speaker 2: I've had heaps of them come back to me and say, shit,
Speaker 2: I didn't know you were feeling like that too, And
Speaker 2: I felt like that and now like now that they're now,
Speaker 2: they're feeling better. But like it's it should It's crazy
Speaker 2: that the world was like that where it was like,
Speaker 2: you know, he gives a shit about it that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: no matter the circumstance. And I think it.
Speaker 4: Depends where you live, like in Bondi and in most
Speaker 4: of the Inner West. I've heard a lot like Northern
Speaker 4: Beaches like parenting groups even back then where dads were
Speaker 4: able to kind of pilot in at random moments and
Speaker 4: watch the kids with the same group.
Speaker 1: Also, yeah, that's.
Speaker 2: Sort of what the deal that we have, But now
Speaker 2: we've all just developed into Yeah, but.
Speaker 4: I guess you have to take into consideration like what
Speaker 4: Balmain is and what it was, then it's a different
Speaker 4: group of people. And so I just decided that Bowmain
Speaker 4: was all of Australia, which was a little naive, but
Speaker 4: in the moment, you know, you're very lonely, you're sleep deprived,
Speaker 4: so you do jump to these nasty conclusions. And so I,
Speaker 4: instead of doing what I could have done, which is like,
Speaker 4: if not Balmain, then Roselle, and if not Roselle then
Speaker 4: like Harden. If not Liker and.
Speaker 2: Just working like a salesman, I'm.
Speaker 4: Off the park, I would have found them.
Speaker 1: When did you realize that your mental health was something
Speaker 1: that you couldn't deal with on your own.
Speaker 4: I've had a long, tumultuous history with mental health, so
Speaker 4: you know, as a young queer kid in the church,
Speaker 4: popped up pretty early, and so my mom put me
Speaker 4: in therapy when I was twelve.
Speaker 2: Wow, she was like, I don't.
Speaker 4: Have the answers to deal with whatever the hell you're
Speaker 4: going through. In America, we have worked a couple decades
Speaker 4: ahead of Australia as far as it not being that shameful,
Speaker 4: specifically for men to get mental health support. And so
Speaker 4: she was like, I don't know, the answers will give
Speaker 4: you a local therapist. And so from twelve all the
Speaker 4: way up until the story, I had been in and
Speaker 4: out of therapy whenever I needed it, you know, when
Speaker 4: things were going tough, I would sign up and then
Speaker 4: I would, you know, drop back. But I thought, specifically
Speaker 4: to go back to what you said about feeling the
Speaker 4: pressure of being the first generation of gay parents. I decided,
Speaker 4: you fought for this, you paid for it. People don't
Speaker 4: want you to do this, so do not complain. Bro,
Speaker 4: shut up. Oh you're sad.
Speaker 1: Oh it's you know.
Speaker 4: I just was like, shut you're.
Speaker 2: Just like, you know, yeah, you wouldn't allow yourself to
Speaker 2: be sad and beyond great, not ungrateful, but like have
Speaker 2: that feeling. It's like, well, people have never had this chance,
Speaker 2: so just shut up and get on with it.
Speaker 4: Literally, And I wasn't going to complain to my husband
Speaker 4: because I had begged him to be a stay at
Speaker 4: home dad, Like I'd put pressure on him, you got
Speaker 4: to get that next job, get the money, because I
Speaker 4: don't want to work, Like you know, I felt like
Speaker 4: I convinced my parents I was going to be great
Speaker 4: at this, so I just kept shot. But the moment
Speaker 4: that I was like, oh, do you need help for sure?
Speaker 4: Is I had been working out a exit strategy to
Speaker 4: get out of the country by myself, very kind of
Speaker 4: like unbeknownst to me, it was just happening. I would
Speaker 4: like Google at night one way ticket's best place to
Speaker 4: escape to countries you can disappear, and just like almost
Speaker 4: as a joke, but like how many people do it?
Speaker 4: And then one night I went to the airport in
Speaker 4: the middle of the night, three in the morning, just
Speaker 4: slammed the door of the kids. They had shit everywhere
Speaker 4: and I just couldn't handle it anymore, grabbed the keys,
Speaker 4: drove to Sydney International Airport, got out and just like
Speaker 4: I looked at the entrance and I was like, are
Speaker 4: you gonna are you gonna? Like? Whoa, Like your mind
Speaker 4: is broken, dude, Like huge, huge step.
Speaker 1: What was stopping you? Then when you're at at the airport, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you've been fantasizing about getting away. What was holding
Speaker 1: you back?
Speaker 4: It's interesting it wasn't necessarily being held back. It was,
Speaker 4: weirdly enough, the reminder of what I needed, which was
Speaker 4: my husband. You know, those early days, it's the only
Speaker 4: thing you want to do is like to get a divorce,
Speaker 4: Like I don't want anything to do with you. I
Speaker 4: don't want your help. Plus I'm lying to you, so
Speaker 4: I'm not telling you what's happening because I want you
Speaker 4: to seem like I'm really good at this. I don't
Speaker 4: want you to be afraid that I'm the one being
Speaker 4: left with the kids and I'm depressed and crying every day.
Speaker 4: Like if I had done that, I don't know what
Speaker 4: he would have done. I thought maybe the kids would
Speaker 4: get taken away. That's what I thought, Like, hey, husband,
Speaker 4: when you're gone at work, I cry in the shower.
Speaker 4: I cry when i'm make him in breakfast. I cry
Speaker 4: while they nap, Like, yeah, I just keep your mouth shut.
Speaker 2: Super common though, So I was Josh in the situation, right,
Speaker 2: I would work full time, not what I do now,
Speaker 2: which I'm really reflexible. I was nine to five in
Speaker 2: the city from Northern Beaches. I was gone for twelve
Speaker 2: hours of the day. I come home to a broken
Speaker 2: person sitting in my house with my only child that
Speaker 2: I could have resented. So like, yeah, like you don't
Speaker 2: want them as much as Apel tried to hide it
Speaker 2: from me. You know you can tell.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean exactly, even the fake smiles like they
Speaker 4: can sense something's up. But at the moment, I remember
Speaker 4: at the airport just thinking, oh shit, I just need Josh,
Speaker 4: like that's what I need.
Speaker 1: So did you call them or did you drive home?
Speaker 4: It was like four in the morning, so I I
Speaker 4: drove back home and I got into bed, and I
Speaker 4: didn't say anything, and I promised myself that I wasn't
Speaker 4: going to tell anyone.
Speaker 1: He woke up totally unaware.
Speaker 4: He found out when the book came out.
Speaker 2: Holy shit.
Speaker 4: I mean I obviously told them before. I was like,
Speaker 4: would you like to read this?
Speaker 2: Just read this line? And you're sitting there with your
Speaker 2: see with you.
Speaker 1: He wakes up and goes, I have this weird someone
Speaker 1: took the car.
Speaker 2: At the airport.
Speaker 4: No, but when you walk up, I did say I
Speaker 4: need help, like I need to get I need to
Speaker 4: get to a doctor. I think I think the words
Speaker 4: I used were I'm like, I think right now I
Speaker 4: might be a danger to the kids, was what I said.
Speaker 4: You just call the doctor's office and they're like, we
Speaker 4: can see you in seven seven business.
Speaker 2: They're so brave love you to do that because so
Speaker 2: many people don't.
Speaker 4: Thanks.
Speaker 2: We've you know, had people reach out to us sort
Speaker 2: have said, like a lot of like young moms have
Speaker 2: said I think my husband going through a similar thing,
Speaker 2: or I think I'm going through a similar thing, or
Speaker 2: even even dad's like I think my wife's the same
Speaker 2: as what you know. And it's so it's so brave
Speaker 2: of you to like actually say it out loud, to
Speaker 2: even though it's the closest person to you, like it's crazy.
Speaker 4: That's to hear. I think it goes back to like
Speaker 4: the foundation of therapy, the foundation of being like, hey,
Speaker 4: I'm struggling because even though I'm gay, like I have
Speaker 4: all the same issues that every guy has from being
Speaker 4: a man in society where it's like just tough enough,
Speaker 4: like shut up, yeah you didn't get birth. You hear
Speaker 4: a breastfeeding every day, get over yourself, like shut up.
Speaker 4: Was it like that that narrative was still in my
Speaker 4: head be tough, like man up a little bit. It
Speaker 4: was absolutely that narrative. But if you have a foundation
Speaker 4: of love when things are shitty, of raising your hand
Speaker 4: just one person, it doesn't need to be a lot.
Speaker 1: It isn't.
Speaker 4: It can just be a stranger too. But in that
Speaker 4: moment of being like, okay, you got to you got
Speaker 4: to tell somebody.
Speaker 2: And write it down. Yeah, write it down and slought
Speaker 2: him a not so whatever works for you.
Speaker 1: When you started seeing someone professionally to get help. And
Speaker 1: this is coming from again a place of naivity because
Speaker 1: I haven't gone through that process myself. But are there
Speaker 1: any tools that you're given to better handle the situation
Speaker 1: or is it just a case of being with a
Speaker 1: therapist and airing out those thoughts is what helps in itself.
Speaker 4: The government is pretty impressive, like this country when it
Speaker 4: comes to healthcare. You know, we can judge it in isolation,
Speaker 4: but when you consider some of the other countries in
Speaker 4: the world. The fact that I went to the doctors,
Speaker 4: I immediately took a postnatal depression test which said mother
Speaker 4: on the page twice, So like, you got to deal
Speaker 4: with that drama. It work absolutely makes it worse. You're like, great,
Speaker 4: not only have I failed this is like the lot
Speaker 4: you're not a single man problem that they've never once
Speaker 4: considered before. And the doctor was like, my apologies fold
Speaker 4: at the top.
Speaker 2: Subtle, at least he tried.
Speaker 4: So you take the test and what comes out as
Speaker 4: a number, and if the number is above a specific
Speaker 4: thing like above twenty, it means you know things are bad,
Speaker 4: and if it's above thirty, that person needs psychchiatric support immediately.
Speaker 4: And my number was in that category, so immediately I
Speaker 4: qualify to go to Trisillian, which is a full funded
Speaker 4: government house hospital where you can go and for a
Speaker 4: couple of days have help with sleep and they take
Speaker 4: care of the kids and they work with you to
Speaker 4: help sleep trains so that you can get to a
Speaker 4: place because all of this is happening, as we all know,
Speaker 4: while you're sleep deprived. And so if you can get
Speaker 4: the parent in a better mental headspace through sleep so
Speaker 4: they're not literally sleep deprived, then they can think more clearly.
Speaker 2: They take your baby from you at night. That was one.
Speaker 2: So like we did this thing. We did eight weeks essentially,
Speaker 2: and like the first week is really important for mom, dad,
Speaker 2: whoever to get rest because they're like the number one
Speaker 2: thing is just get some rest, like and you honestly,
Speaker 2: even week after, just like a week in and you've
Speaker 2: got the rest again, you start to think so much
Speaker 2: more clearly about your situation. Absolutely, it's so helpful.
Speaker 1: There's a reason why sleep deprivation is a form of.
Speaker 4: Torture because it works made like they're talking at you
Speaker 4: and you're just feeling worse and worse and worse, or
Speaker 4: they're asking you questions and or in another world thinking
Speaker 4: about escaping, and so to get the sleep and then
Speaker 4: be able to look at the doctor, I guess, like
Speaker 4: the best things that they did for me, I did
Speaker 4: get medical support, so I went on medication right away.
Speaker 4: It was clear that where I was at was actually
Speaker 4: dangerous for myself, for my husband, for my children, and
Speaker 4: so I that medical support was embarrassing. Like I was embarrassed. Absolutely,
Speaker 4: that was one of the lowest points where I.
Speaker 2: Thought not only of much medicated.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I didn't want that. When they told it
Speaker 4: to me, I said, what's the other option? Because I'm
Speaker 4: definitely not doing that too.
Speaker 1: What do they say in that situation?
Speaker 4: Oh, He's like, well, we can explore like the sunrise,
Speaker 4: like the sun outside and eating healthy, but.
Speaker 2: Meditation, exercise that just the general jog and really.
Speaker 4: And then I just had excuses and I was like,
Speaker 4: I'm an stay at home dad, like my husband works,
Speaker 4: what's going to happen. I don't have family here, I
Speaker 4: don't have friends, Like, I don't know what you want.
Speaker 4: I can't get to the local mothers group, so like
Speaker 4: you're giving me these options. It don't make sense for me.
Speaker 4: And what he said, which I will always remember, is
Speaker 4: we need to get Sean back and if we can
Speaker 4: use medicine, even if it's just for three months, a
Speaker 4: really short period of time, to get your clear head.
Speaker 4: All of the things we're going to tell you to do, exercise,
Speaker 4: eating healthy, connecting with friends, maybe getting a job. You're
Speaker 4: going to be able to hear more clearly and then
Speaker 4: make sound decisions. And they use some power moves against me.
Speaker 4: They were like, it's not about this isn't just about you.
Speaker 4: This is for your kids. As soon as you hear that,
Speaker 4: you're like tiger Dad comes out and you're like, I
Speaker 4: guess I'll do whatever it takes. I happened to be
Speaker 4: going home to America for the first time to see
Speaker 4: my family, and he said, why don't you go home
Speaker 4: and just be with your mom and dad and go
Speaker 4: on this medicine with them, and something about that, I
Speaker 4: was like, that sounds great. I'll give my kids to
Speaker 4: like the people I trust most in the world, and
Speaker 4: I will go through the passive process of transitioning onto medicine,
Speaker 4: which is it rewires your brain and it's not enjoyable
Speaker 4: for like a couple of days, and then I just
Speaker 4: went on it and didn't look back. Its work.
Speaker 2: It definitely makes those things that although other suggestions, more
Speaker 2: doable and like, yeah, the clarity for sure is something
Speaker 2: that's like, because you do, you sort of go, I don't.
Speaker 2: I'm not that guy. It needs to be medicated. And
Speaker 2: for so long I hit it too, but it's like
Speaker 2: and then it's like, well, what you should do is
Speaker 2: you should exercise every fifteen minutes or meditate it every day,
Speaker 2: And you're like, when is that kind of fit in
Speaker 2: with the other shit I have to do, you know,
Speaker 2: to change nappies and all that sort of shit.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So what advice would you give to any
Speaker 1: other parents out there, moms or dads who are in
Speaker 1: a position where they're thinking about escaping. What advice would
Speaker 1: you give to them.
Speaker 4: I mean my advice in general, which happens to be
Speaker 4: a nice van diagram overlap with people who are struggling,
Speaker 4: is we have a story in our head of the
Speaker 4: parents that we think we need to be or want
Speaker 4: to be, and it's usually based off of our parenting
Speaker 4: role models or sometimes our friends and the world that
Speaker 4: our parents lived in it no longer exists, and so
Speaker 4: what we're doing is we're trying to live a traditional
Speaker 4: life in a modern world. And sometimes those things don't
Speaker 4: marry up, and we get caught in like being a
Speaker 4: certain parent, and I think it gets in the way
Speaker 4: of us actually building a life with our partner, or
Speaker 4: if we're doing it by ourselves, it just works for you.
Speaker 4: I was so anti going to work because I wanted
Speaker 4: to be a stay at home parent. I thought that
Speaker 4: meant something. I'm going to do it like my mom did.
Speaker 4: I thought mother's group didn't work out, You're not welcome in.
Speaker 4: That's the end of that chapter. And the reality was
Speaker 4: when I got clear, probably two weeks after the medicine,
Speaker 4: I started to realize, like, Okay, you can't be a
Speaker 4: stay at home dad because you're living in a country
Speaker 4: with no friends or family, you need to make connections.
Speaker 4: So like the exercise of walking around your park with
Speaker 4: a prams not good enough. Find a group class. So
Speaker 4: I signed up in the yoga studio, got tennis lessons,
Speaker 4: and then I thought, you know what, this isn't working.
Speaker 4: You got to find a part time job. Just find
Speaker 4: people your age, like Connecticut andverising job part time. And
Speaker 4: then all of a sudden, I had connections, which meant
Speaker 4: I had someone to complain to, which meant I had
Speaker 4: someone that been to It.
Speaker 2: Makes a big difference. Someone you can wing jab.
Speaker 4: Just whinge, go to work and bitch or forget about
Speaker 4: kids for a minute. Because I was at that age,
Speaker 4: you know, I was twenty nine where I could slip
Speaker 4: into work at an advertising agency and not be a
Speaker 4: parent for a little bit. People would forget, they would
Speaker 4: know I'm just a fun, gay kid. And then all
Speaker 4: of a sudden, it's like I was able to go
Speaker 4: off the medicine because I had all these resources of
Speaker 4: connection and work and meaning outside of parenting, which I
Speaker 4: think every parent who survived a couple of years knows.
Speaker 4: You got to have meaning outside of your parent. You've
Speaker 4: got to feel like you can give yourself self care
Speaker 4: as much as possible, and when that happened, I haven't
Speaker 4: like parenting has been great ever since then.
Speaker 1: I think there may be a lot of partners listening
Speaker 1: to this who their partner is dealing with a similar
Speaker 1: issue with their mental health. It might be helpful for
Speaker 1: them to know what Josh did for you in those moments.
Speaker 4: I mean, the rude reality is Josh was struggling on
Speaker 4: his own, and I think that's what's tricky even about
Speaker 4: both of your stories, is on top of you struggling,
Speaker 4: your partner is and so sometimes you're just trying to
Speaker 4: keep your head above the water. And when you go
Speaker 4: back and you talk to Josh about those moments, he
Speaker 4: was like, it was really tricky because I had my
Speaker 4: own issues and all I needed wanted to do is
Speaker 4: ensure that you felt supported. The best things that I
Speaker 4: think he did was took almost everything off my plate
Speaker 4: whenever he could. So when you're there, you're present, you're
Speaker 4: off your phone, you're asking what's on your partner's list,
Speaker 4: and you're saying, what can I take off of it.
Speaker 4: I give Josh a lot of credit because one of
Speaker 4: the ways we structure our parenting partnership it was built
Speaker 4: in those early days where he would say, what's one
Speaker 4: thing you don't like doing this week that I can
Speaker 4: take from you? And you take one thing I don't
Speaker 4: like off my plate. Wow, And he did that even
Speaker 4: when I was depressed.
Speaker 1: What were the things that you didn't like?
Speaker 4: I do not like going to the playground. I think
Speaker 4: it is absolutely ridiculous that we take them there to
Speaker 4: play and then we have to play the whole time.
Speaker 4: I could not be more annoying. Do you want me
Speaker 4: to push you on a swing? The repetitive ass motion
Speaker 4: of that app I I actually like.
Speaker 2: The swing because then I can be on my phone.
Speaker 4: I don't like laundry. I find it really annoying, like
Speaker 4: if it were up to me, like they're going to
Speaker 4: ruin that shit in like thirty minutes, so just chuck
Speaker 4: it out of there, like, don't fold it. Those are
Speaker 4: probably the two things that I was like, just taking
Speaker 4: off my plate.
Speaker 2: Please.
Speaker 4: I want nothing to do with the laundry ever again.
Speaker 4: And then I guess the other thing is like your
Speaker 4: partner is going to say no, they're not gonna want
Speaker 4: the help. They're going to give you excuses for why
Speaker 4: things are good. It is completely acceptable to not ask,
Speaker 4: but to tell Josha that a lot. So we're going
Speaker 4: on a date night on Tuesday. I know you don't
Speaker 4: want to leave them. This is important for us. You're
Speaker 4: going to a hotel for twenty four hours on your own.
Speaker 4: I booked it. It's done. I've got everything else sorted.
Speaker 4: I know you say that you're fine. I'd really love
Speaker 4: for you to go for a walk and listen to
Speaker 4: a podcast. My mom's coming. It's like, don't if you
Speaker 4: think there's a real issue, and they don't. They're not
Speaker 4: receptive to help. You're allowed to, as the love of
Speaker 4: their life to go. Guess what. You don't get a choice,
Speaker 4: go to bed, take a shower. I'm making dinner. It's done,
Speaker 4: And I think the best way to do it, Unfortunately,
Speaker 4: when they're really in a hole is to spring it
Speaker 4: on them, like my mom is coming in five minutes
Speaker 4: and you and I are going on a date.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Aaron, you and I are just gone for a walk.
Speaker 2: Makes a really really big impact for sure.
Speaker 4: And if you're like, think of what your partner did
Speaker 4: in the times when things were good. So like he
Speaker 4: brought my sister and surprised me because he knows that
Speaker 4: her and I are really close, and so she just
Speaker 4: showed up at my front door. Or Okay, Sean needs
Speaker 4: to find a yoga studio. I'm going to find it
Speaker 4: for him. He wants he needs ten Okay, I'm just
Speaker 4: going to get him the tennis racket. Like it's your job.
Speaker 4: You've signed on hopefully till death to us, bar forever whatever.
Speaker 4: You actually do know the intricacies of what makes them happy.
Speaker 4: They can't see it. It's not clear for them. So
Speaker 4: if that, I just think, wouldn't you want the same thing?
Speaker 4: Of course we're going to say. Now we're in a
Speaker 4: whole like shit, so like you need a little bit help.
Speaker 2: How are your kids now six six yeees old? So
Speaker 2: you've got a little bit more experienced than Matt and I.
Speaker 2: What do you think looking back is the biggest shit
Speaker 2: show moment with your kids? Oh?
Speaker 1: Wow?
Speaker 2: So many.
Speaker 4: I was gonna say I could write a book about it,
Speaker 4: but I did.
Speaker 2: Let's try another bit, so every year, I reckon you
Speaker 2: could sit down and write a book about the shit
Speaker 2: show moment.
Speaker 4: I think every six years you get a next chapter, right,
Speaker 4: I mean, literally the biggest shit show. Josh and I
Speaker 4: travel a lot because my family's in America. He travels
Speaker 4: for work. And when before we had kids, we sat
Speaker 4: down and I was like, what, what's really important to
Speaker 4: you after kids? And he was like, I don't want
Speaker 4: to lose the wonderlust. Like he loves to travel. It's
Speaker 4: fundamental to who he is. So how do you have
Speaker 4: kids and do that? And so we were traveling, like,
Speaker 4: my kids are six and they've been on more than
Speaker 4: one hundred flights easy, Like, yeah, probably one hundred and
Speaker 4: fifteen or hundred.
Speaker 2: My son would be like, I want to go to
Speaker 2: all those plays.
Speaker 4: My kids love it. It's just important to Josh. And so
Speaker 4: we go on a lot of trips. But I was
Speaker 4: the one having to deal with the jet lag on
Speaker 4: the way back. Right, He just gets to go to
Speaker 4: work and like deal with it with adults and just
Speaker 4: be an asshole or whatever. But I have to like
Speaker 4: deal with kids. So I was like, I don't want
Speaker 4: to go to America anymore. I'm sorry. He was like,
Speaker 4: I promised your mom we'd get back twice a year.
Speaker 4: We got to figure out a solution and they were like, well,
Speaker 4: Josh starts talking to all his friends and people go,
Speaker 4: what about giving him anergen or like Benadrilla or whatever.
Speaker 4: It's fine, like people have been doing it forever and
Speaker 4: ever and ever. And I was like, okay, well you're
Speaker 4: older than me. I trust you. I think a grandmother
Speaker 4: his best mate's mom, who's a doctor and a grandmother,
Speaker 4: was like, we did it with all of our kids
Speaker 4: their whole lives.
Speaker 2: They also gave them rum and literally literally.
Speaker 4: So we get on the plane, we test it before
Speaker 4: we go, because you did the test.
Speaker 2: We didn't.
Speaker 4: No, we tested and they were both fine. We get
Speaker 4: on the plane, give it to my son. He just
Speaker 4: passes out with Josh and they just sleep for like,
Speaker 4: you know, the whole fucking flight. And I'm with my
Speaker 4: daughter and she starts playing and keeps playing and then
Speaker 4: starts to get agitated, Like I mean, I don't know
Speaker 4: what it's like to do coke.
Speaker 2: But I've heard a reverse effects.
Speaker 4: The reverse effects. She lost it and not just lost
Speaker 4: it like agitated, but and screaming and crying, but like
Speaker 4: the look of someone who's just taken acid and knows
Speaker 4: they can't get it out and there's no way to
Speaker 4: stop it, like her eyeballs got mad. She loving it.
Speaker 4: And we're on a plane and not only We're on
Speaker 4: a plane where La to Sydney? So we yeah, brilliant,
Speaker 4: a nice fourteen hour trip. She lost it, I mean,
Speaker 4: and I just think back to that moment. There's like
Speaker 4: the funny story which is like her, you know, throwing
Speaker 4: herself against the edge and the women, the flight attendants
Speaker 4: being like what are you okay? Like what's happening here?
Speaker 4: Where's your wife? Like can someone come and help us? Situation?
Speaker 4: So that's your show. And then there's the scary bit,
Speaker 4: which is you're like, what have I just done to
Speaker 4: my kids?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: They ever gonna come back?
Speaker 4: I my daughter for sure. So that's probably one of
Speaker 4: the biggest shit shows.
Speaker 1: Yeah, check medication.
Speaker 4: Did I give her the right one? It was my pill?
Speaker 1: Damn it.
Speaker 2: Did she sleep at all?
Speaker 4: She did?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 4: Actually, when she slamm through, she threw herself again door
Speaker 4: and then she just was like me tired and then just.
Speaker 2: Finger again.
Speaker 4: So don't drop your kids.
Speaker 1: How do you navigate the conversations with your kids? Because
Speaker 1: now they are a bit older, they kind of understand
Speaker 1: at what age do you say you have two dads?
Speaker 4: We decided really early on that the best and we
Speaker 4: stole this from kids who are adopted because I think
Speaker 4: that's probably the story we heard growing up, was the
Speaker 4: kid who's adopted who finds out when he's eighteen, or
Speaker 4: she finds out when she's fifteen, or always knew but
Speaker 4: never knew who the parents were. So many movies, so
Speaker 4: many because it's the lifelong quest for answers. And so
Speaker 4: when you meet people who were adopted who are.
Speaker 2: Cool, I find out saying they drive me.
Speaker 4: You know, they say they just they knew early on.
Speaker 4: They were always told, so before they could talk, before
Speaker 4: they always knew not just that they had two dads,
Speaker 4: but that that wasn't normal, but that wasn't common. We
Speaker 4: had the gay books, you know, like two dads or whatever,
Speaker 4: and I think there's one called like Stella has two
Speaker 4: dads literally, so we had that one. But like all
Speaker 4: the other books, we were constantly reinforcing like everyone else,
Speaker 4: like you're going to be one of almost always. But
Speaker 4: then also we gave them the layers of like this
Speaker 4: is what a sarrogate is, this is her name, okay,
Speaker 4: this is your this is the biological mother. Here's what
Speaker 4: that means. So it felt very weird to be telling
Speaker 4: an eighteen month old that and a two year old.
Speaker 4: But the reality is they start to ask the weird,
Speaker 4: uncomfortable questions, and by the time they're six, they understand
Speaker 4: so fully exactly who they are, and they've worked through
Speaker 4: the discomfort in a comfortable place. What you don't want
Speaker 4: to do is have them work through that discomfort at school,
Speaker 4: an uncomfortable place with other kids that go, you have
Speaker 4: two dads, that's weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's like that old conversation you have when
Speaker 2: you're a keep with my dad could paid up your
Speaker 2: dad like my dad's could be.
Speaker 4: Literally both of them. But also, I guess the world
Speaker 4: has changed a lot, like our kids are growing up
Speaker 4: in a very different world where diversity even just through
Speaker 4: the phones, Like they have more access on television to
Speaker 4: people who look different, of different color. Like when we
Speaker 4: grew up, you wouldn't be outside of maybe one play
Speaker 4: school character every six months. You weren't seeing a bunch
Speaker 4: of people with different colored skin or kid in a wheelchair.
Speaker 4: And so when Stella told this girl at school, she said,
Speaker 4: why isn't your mom ever pick you up? And Stella said,
Speaker 4: I have two dads. The girl goes, I wish I
Speaker 4: had two dads, sobbing sobbing, and Stella's like, don't worry,
Speaker 4: I'm sorry. She just looked at me like people are
Speaker 4: jealous of me, and so I think, like, that's beautiful,
Speaker 4: it's great, you know.
Speaker 2: It's like, but like the sobbing.
Speaker 4: I mean when she was three, well.
Speaker 1: She was not sex It must be so nerve wracking.
Speaker 1: You know, everyone gets a little bit of bullying when
Speaker 1: they were younger, and me was. He believes me, but
Speaker 1: it's it's really scary. You're sending him out to the
Speaker 1: big wide world. You can't wrap him in cotton wool,
Speaker 1: and you're so fearful of them being an easy target.
Speaker 1: Is that anxiety tough to deal with?
Speaker 4: I'll be honest. I think the fact that I grew
Speaker 4: up as that kid who was bullied, the clear black
Speaker 4: sheep in the town, the obvious gay kid everyone you've
Speaker 4: ever met, who was filled to the brim with empathy
Speaker 4: and sympathy and grew up a little bit strange. It's
Speaker 4: just a reality. Like when you're the kid in a wheelchair,
Speaker 4: you never grow up to be a dick. It just
Speaker 4: doesn't happen. I mean, that's not true. There are bitch
Speaker 4: queens for the most part, but I think for me,
Speaker 4: what I came to terms with really early on through
Speaker 4: the coaching I got from my parents is is if
Speaker 4: it wasn't my gayness, it would be my freckles. If
Speaker 4: it wasn't because I had freckles, it's because I was
Speaker 4: a redhead. If it wasn't because I was a red head,
Speaker 4: it was because my dad got my parents got divorced.
Speaker 4: They will find something, But what I will not do
Speaker 4: is pretend that them having two dads is genuinely worse
Speaker 4: than their friends' parents getting divorced. I just don't believe it.
Speaker 4: I really believe that like who I am is just
Speaker 4: as normal as anything else. And yes, I might not
Speaker 4: be as common as the rest of the population, but
Speaker 4: I'm a great dad. They have a good life, they
Speaker 4: have love all around them. That shit matters so much
Speaker 4: more than what a lot of straight people have to
Speaker 4: go through. And so I just I'm not going to
Speaker 4: carry the trauma from my childhood and put it onto
Speaker 4: these kids who didn't ask for that. Yeah, and also,
Speaker 4: we live in Sydney, in a really cool, pretty progressive
Speaker 4: city where there were there's a lot of examples of
Speaker 4: difference all around them, and so instead of my parents
Speaker 4: trying to coach me the obvious and only one. Don't worry.
Speaker 4: There are other people like you somewhere. I hope Ellen.
Speaker 4: Ellen just came out public. She lost her show. I
Speaker 4: don't have to do that. I don't have to do that.
Speaker 4: There are lots of other examples, and if I needed them,
Speaker 4: you know, they're literally gay parent meetups once a month
Speaker 4: and the Inner West where you can go so your
Speaker 4: children can have access and so if things got bad,
Speaker 4: I would I would feel that I could connect them
Speaker 4: with other people.
Speaker 2: There's way more avenues now for you and your kids
Speaker 2: to connect.
Speaker 1: Before we go, I want to ask you one last question.
Speaker 2: Here's arms crossed. What something serious?
Speaker 1: When you are an old man that's a gray hairs
Speaker 1: and your children, Stella and Cooper have grown up, what's
Speaker 1: the one thing you want them to remember about your home,
Speaker 1: the household that they grew up in.
Speaker 4: Oh wow, oh that's good. The one thing I did
Speaker 4: not have as a child, And no fault to my parents.
Speaker 4: It's just because of the way that I was made
Speaker 4: was I didn't feel that I could talk about the
Speaker 4: problems that I was having. The greatest issue that I
Speaker 4: was having, the one that easily could have been the
Speaker 4: end of me. I couldn't talk to them about it,
Speaker 4: and again, it's not their fault. They're loving and accepting.
Speaker 4: And I constantly think about how terrible about ten years
Speaker 4: of my life was to struggle internally alone every night
Speaker 4: by yourself. And then when I became an adult, to
Speaker 4: tell my parents those things and to hear them say
Speaker 4: we had no idea. Is oh that it hurts to
Speaker 4: know that they had no idea. If you're listening to this,
Speaker 4: you do not have access to the script inside your
Speaker 4: child's head. You might feel that you know them in
Speaker 4: their totality, and we do. We understand our kids and
Speaker 4: the nuances and when they're in a good mood or
Speaker 4: a bad mood. But the reality is there are things
Speaker 4: that are going on in our kids head we won't
Speaker 4: have access to ever. And the only way you can
Speaker 4: fix that is creating a home where they can tell
Speaker 4: you anything and you nail home that message not when
Speaker 4: things are bad, but when things are good. Good. Yeah,
Speaker 4: So when things are bad, people aren't capable of stretching
Speaker 4: and reaching on to the tools and techniques that will
Speaker 4: make them feel better. But when they're good, when they're
Speaker 4: in a great place. That's when you lay the foundation,
Speaker 4: like you understand that you can always come to me,
Speaker 4: that there is not a single thing that you could
Speaker 4: say that's going to change my love for you. That
Speaker 4: if anything bad ever happened, like, I won't tell a
Speaker 4: single So those things that we all know we should say,
Speaker 4: I'm an example of that necessarily not working, and the
Speaker 4: damage that it did is something that I'll never be
Speaker 4: able to fully unpick. And I love my parents and
Speaker 4: they're incredibly wonderful and supportive. But I know for a
Speaker 4: fact that my kids are aware of that, and I
Speaker 4: know that if things are bad and it started to happen,
Speaker 4: you know, when they hit KNDy and you're one and
Speaker 4: now the friendship drama is starting the stress of teacher
Speaker 4: dynamics and we're starting to get those that are dropped
Speaker 4: in your lap each day, and how you respond when
Speaker 4: your kid comes with that. You don't brush them off
Speaker 4: or oh you'll be fine, made that just happens sometimes,
Speaker 4: Oh that's just kids shit. No, that when they come
Speaker 4: to you with those problems, you are writing the script
Speaker 4: for the rest of their fucking life, not just for
Speaker 4: you and them, but the way that they talk to
Speaker 4: partners and friends, and so I hope when they look
Speaker 4: back at that they think those four walls, when the
Speaker 4: outside world was scary, the inside was a real safe place.
Speaker 1: Wow, there is no doubt in my mind that that's
Speaker 1: exactly how they're going to feel. You doing it, I
Speaker 1: can tell you showing that was a beautiful fucking chat.
Speaker 2: Thanks, Thanks very much, Sean, Thank you for allowing us
Speaker 2: to enter your hass and have this conversation.
Speaker 4: I was going to say thanks for having me, but
Speaker 4: you're welcome.
Speaker 1: Than just to remind that if you have any guest suggestions,
Speaker 1: we would love to hear, because the plan is from
Speaker 1: now on we'll be doing guest episodes every fortnight from
Speaker 1: this Monday. So send us suggestions to two Doting Dads
Speaker 1: on Instagram or hello.
Speaker 2: At twodding dads dot com.
Speaker 1: And if you enjoyed this episode, we would absolutely love
Speaker 1: it if you would subscribe, review, leave a few comments why.
Speaker 2: Not, and just a reminder of you or anyone is struggling,
Speaker 2: be sure to reach out to Lifeline thirteen eleven fourteen
Speaker 2: or be on Blue one three hundred double two four
Speaker 2: six three six, See you bye.
Speaker 1: Two Doting Dads Podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country
Speaker 1: throughout Australia and the connections to land, see and community.
Speaker 2: We pay our respects to their elders past and present
Speaker 2: and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestraight Island,
Speaker 2: the people's today. This episode was recorded on Gadagle Land