WEBVTT - #58 BONUS Three Doting Dads ft. Sean Szeps 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.679 Well, well, well, who would have thought me and Ash 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:04.080 coming into your ear holes? 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:07.640 Weird situation for everybody. We have a bonus EP going 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:10.400 straight into your ear holes. Matt tell us who it is. 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:14.160 It is Sean Zepps. He is a hilarious content creator. 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:16.640 You can find his stuff on Instagram with TikTok. Sean 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:20.119 Zepps is his handle. He's also a podcast host and 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:21.160 an author. 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.400 Yes, his book, not like other dads. And I have 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.920 to say he's a very lovely and funny man and 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:28.760 he was very welcoming. He had us in his house, 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:31.040 couldn't get rid of us. 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:33.239 It's a great story. It's the very first time we've 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.040 had a same sex couple. Sean is married to Josh 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.760 and they have twins, Cooper and Stella. 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:41.040 Yes, and they are six years old, so he's got 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:42.880 a little bit more experience than you and I, Matt, 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:45.400 So I believe there will be some advice. It's a 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.000 great chat, but we do touch on some mental health 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:52.080 topics and if you or anyone is struggling, please reach 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:54.880 out to lifel on thirteen eleven fourteen or Beyond Blue 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:58.480 on one three hundred double two four six three six. 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:14.000 All right, let's get into the episode. 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:17.280 Welcome to three Doting Dads. 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:20.160 I'm Mattie Jays and I'm Sean's Apps. 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:22.760 And this is a podcast that is all about parenting. 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.039 It is the good, the bad. 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:26.200 And the relatable. 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:30.679 And I will say definitely on this episode there will 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:35.960 be some advice. Yes, none given from neither myself, your 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:40.120 pads and your pans out. You're about to learn something, Sean. 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:43.600 I need to apologize for the amount of faffing that 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.920 we have taken this morning. We got here an hour ago. 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:49.000 We are pretty good at fafing. 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:51.320 Sorry, no, I love it. 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:55.240 We will get out of your house before nightfall, we 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:57.200 promise you. What time do the kids come home? 0:01:57.840 --> 0:01:59.600 Three o'clock? Yeah, right after three. 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:00.440 I have to work. 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:05.000 I'm not sure. Just stay outside until we finished. I 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:07.680 would like to know Sean to start off the conversation, 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:09.640 a young Sean. 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:16.520 He's young, now, young girl. Still you can't just go 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:17.520 straight in like that. 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:24.240 Sorry, apologies, A younger beautiful Sean. Was he always wanting 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:25.000 to have a family? 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:30.560 Yeah, interesting question, because it's like a roller coaster ride. 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:33.639 When I was a kid, I really wanted to be 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.720 a dad. I had an awesome dad, still alive, Still awesome, 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:38.680 but a really great role model as a father and 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:42.760 an amazingly involved mother. And so when I was really young, 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:50.680 long before I realized who I was, we'll get there, yes, society, 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:52.720 but you know all this stuff in your mind, I 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:54.440 just thought, one hundred percent that's what I would do. 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:58.280 I was raised Roman Catholic, very religious family, and so 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.280 the idea of you husband and wife and children, especially 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:04.240 through the lens of the church, was just at the 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.280 very top of my list. And so if you met me, 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:09.720 like really really young, five six, seven, eight nine and 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:11.680 asked me like what I wanted to be, I actually 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:12.760 would have said a mother. 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:17.280 Wow, yeah, quite an astronaut. 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:23.760 No, I would have been like a ballet dancer, superstar 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:28.720 and a mom. I just thought such an early idea 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:32.960 and clearly as signed my homosexuality coming outside. But I 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:36.480 just thought a dad at that time like meant something, 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:40.560 and a mom was like really crafty and involved and cooking, 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:42.680 and my mom was a stay at home mom, and 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:44.680 I just thought that was really cool. Like, long before 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.320 I knew what gender was or sexuality, I was just like, 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:49.480 I would like that. I don't want to work, I 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:50.760 want to be at home with the kids. I want 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:52.120 to have six of them. I'm going to be a 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.480 really good mom six kids. I mean back then I 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:59.960 just thought marrier. Right then I realized for you know, 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.280 you're a dude, that's not an option for you. And 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.320 then I realized I was gay. So it's like, in order, 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:09.200 you have these massive roadblocks that go, well, you can't 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:10.800 be a mom, You're definitely going to be a dad 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:14.240 and that means something. Back then it meant something. 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:17.240 Can I ask what age is this roughly where you 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:19.600 have the realization of who you are sexually? 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:20.080 Eleven? 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:22.040 Eleven? Yeah, oh my goodness. 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:24.640 Yeah. Ten is when I mean I knew around eight 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:26.960 that I definitely liked guys, but eleven is like you 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.159 do not like you keep trying and praying, dude, but 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.240 the woman parts, you know, not waking up. God, it's 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.559 not helping you. But eleven is like, oh shit, for sure, 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:38.680 this is the thing. And around that time is when 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:40.599 I just decided to kill off the parent dream. You 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:45.480 got to like, just there weren't examples. You couldn't get 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:48.800 married legally. I didn't know a single queer person in 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:51.560 any way, shape or form, And on top of that, 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:53.200 the ones I did now that you might read about 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:56.000 or see in a movie they didn't have children. So 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:57.920 I just decided cool, Like, if this is your thing 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:00.960 and it's going to cause drama and you're probably gonna 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:02.520 get kicked out of your house and you're definitely going 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:04.359 to get kicked out of the church, like just bury 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:05.080 that dream. 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.440 Is this I'm assuming over an extended period of time 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:11.960 that you'll just shoveling and stream into the basement and 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:12.599 shutting the door. 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:17.240 Absolutely. It's the technical term would be internalized homophobia. Right, 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:19.320 You're like taking all the homophobia from out there in 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:21.039 the world and you start to just bury it and 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:24.240 swallow it, and it gets bigger and bigger. The religious 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.120 element is quite interesting because you're also, on top of 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.920 that trying to apply pressure on yourself to be a 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:33.560 good Christian boy. Right, you want to get through it. 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:35.200 You want to like go to heaven if you can. 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:37.560 So I thought, okay, well I don't want to be 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:40.200 a sinner, and I did, so like why not just 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:43.400 not do any of that? Like why not you won't date? 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.280 You want to act on it, and yeah, figure out 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:50.320 how to be straight lie and so yeah, I guess 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:54.559 like between eleven and all the way up until twenty two. Wow, 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:56.599 I was like, that is you are never going to 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:58.359 be a parent. So that's the roller coaster. It's like 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.279 I started wanting nothing more but to be like my mom, 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:04.119 and then I decided you will never be a parent, 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:06.240 and then boom, the world starts to change and you 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.080 get to wake up to like, oh crap, Maybe you 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:10.760 can go back to that dream and revisit it. Maybe 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:11.400 you could be a dad. 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.280 When you're pretending to be straight, was it anything that 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:16.880 you pretended to like that you didn't like? 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:20.159 But this is a straight People think that's so interesting 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:31.400 because sos. 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:35.640 Vagina just a while. Yes, in the that's all I 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:36.440 have to say. 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:42.160 Very good question. I mean that is the other than 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:47.920 sexual organs more in the sport. 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:54.800 But yeah, you know, hard to unpick because the truth 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:59.720 is who I am today is built up of most 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:02.440 of those like I think we all do it. 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.039 We're young and we just like want to be like 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:06.200 our dads or want to be. 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:09.640 Like yeah, you fit in with that. Even with your mates, 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:11.720 so it's like they might like something as a as 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:14.760 a hetro. Yeah, it's like some mates might like something 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:16.600 that you kind of don't, but just because you want 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:17.160 to feed in with them. 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.080 You like, yeah, me too, I love motocross, and then 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.560 you can't unpick it. You're like, thirty years later you 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:23.360 really like some forty one, and you're like, why do 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:23.800 we like some? 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:28.240 I was like when I was a kid, I really 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:30.560 didn't like him that much. I was just like everyone 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:31.680 else did exactly. 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.440 I come from a sports family, like elite athletes. My mom, 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:37.080 my dad, my brother, and my sister all went to 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:40.680 college like full paid wow. And so if sports is 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:44.440 the answer, like not, I'm a very big fan today 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:46.560 of basketball and tennis and I watch every day and 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.920 I'm like, watch the recaps from the States. But how 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.760 much of that actually is just because I wanted my 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:55.760 dad to think I was cool, like I had the 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.240 lingo that he had, Or like, if we're going to 0:07:58.280 --> 0:07:59.400 go to games, am I going to be the one 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:02.120 whose days at home and does like arts and crafts 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.360 on the fucking table? Absolutely not. So yeah, probably sports 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:08.559 is the answer. Even though it's very stereotypical, It's definitely true. 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:10.680 I think you may have pretended to like like it 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:12.880 for so long it became something that you actually really 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:13.880 liked or lopd it. 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:16.680 I often say to other people when they ask that question, 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.240 are in the realm of how much of being a 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:23.920 young boy, specifically trying to be macho, how much of 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:26.720 that performance lives in me today? 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:27.120 Mm? 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:32.079 Like, my voice is definitely lower than the stereotype of 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:34.560 oh my god, like the higher pitch kind of gay. 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:37.520 And how much of the way that I talk was 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:39.560 even shaped back then? When I'm talking to my dad 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:41.880 in the morning, you know, I say a lot of 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.360 words that me and my brother would say, like, hey man, 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:45.360 hey bro, what's going up? 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:45.880 Dude? 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:50.800 I still talk that way. I don't know if I 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.880 was being raised today. You know, modern parents are pretty 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.640 cool with kids expressing themselves. If I wouldn't even sound 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:58.840 like this, I have no idea. 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.720 So then, in a world where your identity is so blurred, 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:06.680 how nice was it to have that dream of being 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.720 a dad be able to come back to life and 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:10.920 be an opportunity again. 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:12.000 Oh? It was pretty cool. 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:13.160 Do you remember the moment? 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.680 Yeah? Definitely. Josh and I met in New York City 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:18.800 when I was twenty two, and he was like, don't 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:19.280 have kids. 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:20.800 Are we in a park? 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:27.200 We We're in a We're all good romantic story. Had 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:31.280 a football game doing and cross. We were literally in 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:33.120 the bathroom line at a gay bar, so like you know, 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:38.959 yeah before like app culture had kind of exploded, and. 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:41.160 We probably just were next to each other. 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:43.120 He was behind me. He was actually an asshole. He 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:45.160 goes a Santa Claus called he wants his hat back, 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:46.679 and I had like a red beanie on, and I 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:51.080 was like, I literally said fuck you, dude, and he 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:53.800 just walked away into the like dropped the comment and 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:56.280 then booked it. And then maybe an hour later, I 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:58.240 had the hat off, like tucked in my back pocket, 0:09:58.280 --> 0:09:59.920 like took it right off. I was like, you asshole. 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:04.800 I don't want influenced you. 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.080 You know, I don't want to look at Santa. And 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.640 he came back and he was like, don't fucking listen 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:12.240 to people like that. Like I was being like, don't listen. Well, 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:14.040 you put the hat back on, so I like put 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:16.120 it back on and then and then we wait out. 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.319 Pushed me against the beautiful so. 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:22.760 Uh like maybe like date four or five, he's like, 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:25.440 do you want kids? And I was like absolutely not, 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.560 of course not. What do you mean what fantasy world 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:29.160 are you living in? 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:29.360 Bro? 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:31.480 Like you think we're gonna have kids? Can't even get married. 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:36.959 Use this in twenty eleven. Okay, so like technically there 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:40.360 were definitely queer people having children, but it was you know, 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.200 they were juggling, they were doing it with their friends 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:45.640 and turkey bastering in the bathroom, or you know, they 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.400 were adopting, but it was the stories up until then 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:49.480 we're few and far between. 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.800 Yeah, I social media wasn't quite as at the forefront of either, 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:56.720 so it wouldn't have been like you could go onto 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:59.600 Instagram and follow someone's journey so closely. 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.079 Yeah, yeah, you would have to have really like we 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:06.280 went to adoption classes and you would see gay couples there, 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:08.960 but it was still one out of the like. 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:11.520 Fifty what's an adoption class. 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:15.560 When you are considering doing adoption, like before you're alone. Yeah, 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:17.000 you just go and like sit in an audience, you know, 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:18.480 you're just in the back, and they teach you about 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:19.960 it and they talk about the process. They have a 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:22.280 panel of people have gone through the process. I guess 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:24.040 like an info session would have been better. 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.280 And being a same sex couple, are they welcoming to 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:29.480 you or do you do you find that there was 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:31.720 a level of judgment when you walk through the door. 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:34.960 When you're a queer person, you do a lot of 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.520 I was going to say, unnecessary, but very necessary research 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.240 long before you put yourself in that uncomfortable situation. So 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:43.480 we just found the ones that on their website said 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:47.880 like LGBTQI friendly or whatever. So we were in an 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:51.080 environment where they would be like you and your wife. 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:56.959 Or. 0:11:56.679 --> 0:12:01.920 You two, or you but mostly you know, you're surrounded 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:06.320 by mostly straight people. And so I just thought he 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:08.320 was living in a fantasy land. And so over the 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:13.200 course of maybe five years, Josh changed his tune and decided, well, 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:15.480 I want of kids Becausehan doesn't want them and I 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:17.880 want him. So we just you know, got married and 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:21.360 just thought that wasn't going to happen. But then when 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:23.160 you're living in New York City, it's a lot like 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.400 I mean, there really isn't that many examples in Australia unfortunately. 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:26.720 Pets. 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:28.880 No pets, absolutely not. 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.120 You think that maybe like a lot of people who 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.360 think that they kind of have kids, they substitute it 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:35.040 with pets. 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:37.000 I'm sure they do. I mean, gays love nothing more 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:37.400 than like. 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:42.320 A little chill, a little baby dog or great yeah, 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:43.040 but not for me. 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:45.040 I was like, no, I can barely take care of myself. 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.439 I was like twenty four years old. Yeah, New York City. 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:49.760 I was not going to have it. Like the idea 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:51.599 of having a dog in a city just stresses the 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.280 shit out of me, Like those small little apartments. It 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.240 was the size of this told you, I mean tons. 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.439 I was a year later than like what you're sort 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.920 of talking about, and I was like, there's fucking dogs. 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:03.040 There's more dogs and paper. 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:06.559 But so at this point, you're twenty four. Josh's a 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:07.319 bit older. 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:09.600 Though by decade. Yeah, yeah, so he has a decade 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:09.840 on me. 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:12.720 Yeah, which I guess makes sense to why he was 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:14.280 championing this cause. 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:15.920 Yeah, I think it mattered a lot more to him 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:18.520 ticking time, Like he was like, how much longer do 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:23.240 I have? No, But he specifically said early on, like 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:24.600 I don't want to be the dad who can't throw 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:25.880 his kid up in the air, Like I don't want 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:28.480 to start that far. And then what was funny is 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:30.360 you just walking to New York City, one of the 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:32.439 queerest cities in the world, right, and all of a 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:34.320 sudden you're walking down the street and you start to 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:38.280 see gay couples with children, like you know, you see one, 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:40.080 and then five days later you see another, and then 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:42.400 all of a sudden, you're in San Francisco or La 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.560 where I worked, and you're just seeing right in front 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:47.280 of your eyes like queer people and not just queer 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:52.120 people with children, like normally happy. They seem like just 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:56.160 like everyone else. And it just started to like seep 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:58.720 into my brain because I think it's important the distinction 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:00.960 to understand. It's not just am I willing to do this? 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:05.080 Because people have been willing to put themselves in uncomfortable situations, 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.840 Diverse people have been willing to take huge gambles. It's 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.680 are you willing to do this and deal with the 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:14.120 ramifications of it? And for me, the answer was no. 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:16.280 And then you start to see people who genuinely don't 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:20.320 seem afraid. You know, You're walking by a school pickup 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.400 and there's gay dads who are like Billy and they 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:25.080 seem you know, and the moms are talking to them, 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.960 and I thought, Hey, maybe it's maybe all the stories 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:30.960 you've told yourself, the fear that has lived inside of 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.200 you forever and ever and ever, maybe it actually won't 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:34.680 be scary. 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:38.120 That must be so fucking hard to digest. 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:41.320 It's like that's such a true comment too, like just 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:43.920 around a really a lot of things like where you 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:47.480 like the stories you've told you, So, yeah, what is 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:50.120 probably way worse than the actual reality of it. 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.480 Totally. I think the gay lived experience is an insular 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.640 like your parents aren't like you, your siblings aren't like you, 0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:00.000 your neighbors aren't like you. When you're young, it's really 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:01.840 hard to find other people like you, especially if you 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:03.840 grow up in a small town like I did. So 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:06.680 when you're older, it's easy to convince yourself that everything 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:09.520 you're going through is just you, like no one else 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:10.440 has ever thought. 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.360 To have, no one else has gone through, this is 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:13.680 just me. 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:15.600 And then you're in the city and you're like, well, 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.360 here's a lot of options, tons of people, and they 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:21.320 seem cool, like they obviously went through the same journey 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:23.120 you did, Like maybe it is possible. 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:25.920 So did you guys initially go down the adoption route there? 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.480 Yeah, yeah, we didn't know that there were other options. 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:31.240 As informed and clever and savvy as we were. I 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.280 just thought you foster or you adopt. So we went 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.000 to some fostering sessions and realized right away that that 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.680 wasn't going to work out for us. Just the emotional 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.600 stress of potentially falling in love with a child and 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:45.200 then having them go back to the family. I was like, 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.120 I can't do that. It's beautiful. People should absolutely look 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:48.680 into it if they can. 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:52.880 And was there an expectation that you know, adopting was 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:55.040 the right thing to do or the only option that 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.080 you had. Was there like a big expectation on that. 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:59.320 Yeah, I think definitely. And I remember when I talked 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.760 to other people about having kids. I think the pressure 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.760 they put specifically on queer people, it's like, you're going 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:07.560 to adopt, right, they would say it. So you're like, yeah, 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:08.840 I guess that is what I'm going to do. And 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:12.080 if you google back then, like I I never I 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.400 didn't see websites that were like gay people can do 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.320 IVF Sarahacy, I didn't even know what that word was. 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.720 The story goes I was on Facebook one day, as 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:24.760 you do in twenty eleven, and some girl posts like pregnant, 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:27.360 and I didn't even read the post. I just commented 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.880 and was like, congratulations, so happy for you and your husband, 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:32.560 And then she just sent me a DM that was like, Hey, 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:35.960 not sure if you read the post, but I'm I'm sarrogate, 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.600 like I'm caring for someone else, so it's actually not 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.560 my and I was like, what are you talking about? What? 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.040 I googled it right away and was like, oh my god, 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:48.520 she's pregnant for someone else. 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:50.000 That's wild yea. 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:53.480 And she said, when this pregnancy is over, I would 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:55.600 love to carry for you and Josh, oh my, And 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:57.280 then all of a sudden, you go from having no 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.760 idea what this option is too, this is my option. 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:02.960 She is going to carry my children, like you know. 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.640 It must be like such a surreal moment. And then 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.199 you guys going because someone's willing to do that for us. 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:10.280 Holy shit. 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.600 There's a few different pieces to the puzzle, right because 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:17.280 you've got you've got someone to carry, but you do 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:18.760 use her egg. 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.200 So you definitely can. So there are lots of options. 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:26.480 There is anonymous donors for eggs, anonymous donors for sperm, 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:28.479 so you could not use you or your partner at 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:31.200 all and just take a sperm and an egg donor 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:33.120 create the embryo, and you could have children that are 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:36.840 not biologically connected to either one of you for whatever reason, 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.080 maybe you have both of you and your partner. Would 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:40.640 that be safe. 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:44.600 I don't want to sound horrible a cost effective option 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:46.760 that way, No, I mean, yeah, how do you put 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:48.080 a pross on a human life. I'm not trying to. 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.359 Say no, it's now. These are good questions because you 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:54.440 have to pay for both yea and yeah. There's a 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.920 cost attached to both of them. There's a cost attached 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:00.520 sometimes to the retrieval process. So if you select someone 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:02.760 who hasn't gone through the process, who hasn't donated to 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:04.879 a bank either for egg or sperm, you got to 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.520 pay for them to go through the whole pot. So 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.360 what a lot of people do is the most people 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.960 who do serrogce or IVF for straight is they take 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:18.120 the sperm or the eggs from whatever partner can give naturally, 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:20.600 and then they combine. And so you can do that 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.760 where one partner gives and then the eggs or the 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:27.320 sperm come from a bank and then I guess the other. 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:31.800 That's like the two IVF process. So for us, we 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.800 had to throw a massive spanner in the works of 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:37.359