1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,679
Speaker 1: Well, well, well, who would have thought me and Ash

2
00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:04,080
Speaker 1: coming into your ear holes?

3
00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,640
Speaker 2: Weird situation for everybody. We have a bonus EP going

4
00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,400
Speaker 2: straight into your ear holes. Matt tell us who it is.

5
00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,160
Speaker 1: It is Sean Zepps. He is a hilarious content creator.

6
00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:16,640
Speaker 1: You can find his stuff on Instagram with TikTok. Sean

7
00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,119
Speaker 1: Zepps is his handle. He's also a podcast host and

8
00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:21,160
Speaker 1: an author.

9
00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,400
Speaker 2: Yes, his book, not like other dads. And I have

10
00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,920
Speaker 2: to say he's a very lovely and funny man and

11
00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:28,760
Speaker 2: he was very welcoming. He had us in his house,

12
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,040
Speaker 2: couldn't get rid of us.

13
00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:33,239
Speaker 1: It's a great story. It's the very first time we've

14
00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,040
Speaker 1: had a same sex couple. Sean is married to Josh

15
00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,760
Speaker 1: and they have twins, Cooper and Stella.

16
00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,040
Speaker 2: Yes, and they are six years old, so he's got

17
00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:42,880
Speaker 2: a little bit more experience than you and I, Matt,

18
00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,400
Speaker 2: So I believe there will be some advice. It's a

19
00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,000
Speaker 2: great chat, but we do touch on some mental health

20
00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,080
Speaker 2: topics and if you or anyone is struggling, please reach

21
00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,880
Speaker 2: out to lifel on thirteen eleven fourteen or Beyond Blue

22
00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,480
Speaker 2: on one three hundred double two four six three six.

23
00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:14,000
Speaker 3: All right, let's get into the episode.

24
00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,280
Speaker 1: Welcome to three Doting Dads.

25
00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,160
Speaker 4: I'm Mattie Jays and I'm Sean's Apps.

26
00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,760
Speaker 1: And this is a podcast that is all about parenting.

27
00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,039
Speaker 1: It is the good, the bad.

28
00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:26,200
Speaker 2: And the relatable.

29
00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:30,679
Speaker 1: And I will say definitely on this episode there will

30
00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:35,960
Speaker 1: be some advice. Yes, none given from neither myself, your

31
00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,120
Speaker 1: pads and your pans out. You're about to learn something, Sean.

32
00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,600
Speaker 1: I need to apologize for the amount of faffing that

33
00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,920
Speaker 1: we have taken this morning. We got here an hour ago.

34
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,000
Speaker 2: We are pretty good at fafing.

35
00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:51,320
Speaker 4: Sorry, no, I love it.

36
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,240
Speaker 1: We will get out of your house before nightfall, we

37
00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,200
Speaker 1: promise you. What time do the kids come home?

38
00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,600
Speaker 4: Three o'clock? Yeah, right after three.

39
00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:00,440
Speaker 2: I have to work.

40
00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:05,000
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Just stay outside until we finished. I

41
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,680
Speaker 1: would like to know Sean to start off the conversation,

42
00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:09,640
Speaker 1: a young Sean.

43
00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:16,520
Speaker 2: He's young, now, young girl. Still you can't just go

44
00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:17,520
Speaker 2: straight in like that.

45
00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:24,240
Speaker 1: Sorry, apologies, A younger beautiful Sean. Was he always wanting

46
00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:25,000
Speaker 1: to have a family?

47
00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:30,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, interesting question, because it's like a roller coaster ride.

48
00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,639
Speaker 4: When I was a kid, I really wanted to be

49
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,720
Speaker 4: a dad. I had an awesome dad, still alive, Still awesome,

50
00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:38,680
Speaker 4: but a really great role model as a father and

51
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,760
Speaker 4: an amazingly involved mother. And so when I was really young,

52
00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:50,680
Speaker 4: long before I realized who I was, we'll get there, yes, society,

53
00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:52,720
Speaker 4: but you know all this stuff in your mind, I

54
00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:54,440
Speaker 4: just thought, one hundred percent that's what I would do.

55
00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,280
Speaker 4: I was raised Roman Catholic, very religious family, and so

56
00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,280
Speaker 4: the idea of you husband and wife and children, especially

57
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,240
Speaker 4: through the lens of the church, was just at the

58
00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,280
Speaker 4: very top of my list. And so if you met me,

59
00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,720
Speaker 4: like really really young, five six, seven, eight nine and

60
00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:11,680
Speaker 4: asked me like what I wanted to be, I actually

61
00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:12,760
Speaker 4: would have said a mother.

62
00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,280
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, quite an astronaut.

63
00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:23,760
Speaker 4: No, I would have been like a ballet dancer, superstar

64
00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:28,720
Speaker 4: and a mom. I just thought such an early idea

65
00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,960
Speaker 4: and clearly as signed my homosexuality coming outside. But I

66
00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,480
Speaker 4: just thought a dad at that time like meant something,

67
00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,560
Speaker 4: and a mom was like really crafty and involved and cooking,

68
00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,680
Speaker 4: and my mom was a stay at home mom, and

69
00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,680
Speaker 4: I just thought that was really cool. Like, long before

70
00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,320
Speaker 4: I knew what gender was or sexuality, I was just like,

71
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,480
Speaker 4: I would like that. I don't want to work, I

72
00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:50,760
Speaker 4: want to be at home with the kids. I want

73
00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:52,120
Speaker 4: to have six of them. I'm going to be a

74
00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,480
Speaker 4: really good mom six kids. I mean back then I

75
00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,960
Speaker 4: just thought marrier. Right then I realized for you know,

76
00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,280
Speaker 4: you're a dude, that's not an option for you. And

77
00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,320
Speaker 4: then I realized I was gay. So it's like, in order,

78
00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,200
Speaker 4: you have these massive roadblocks that go, well, you can't

79
00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:10,800
Speaker 4: be a mom, You're definitely going to be a dad

80
00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,240
Speaker 4: and that means something. Back then it meant something.

81
00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,240
Speaker 1: Can I ask what age is this roughly where you

82
00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,600
Speaker 1: have the realization of who you are sexually?

83
00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:20,080
Speaker 4: Eleven?

84
00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,040
Speaker 2: Eleven? Yeah, oh my goodness.

85
00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,640
Speaker 4: Yeah. Ten is when I mean I knew around eight

86
00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:26,960
Speaker 4: that I definitely liked guys, but eleven is like you

87
00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,159
Speaker 4: do not like you keep trying and praying, dude, but

88
00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,240
Speaker 4: the woman parts, you know, not waking up. God, it's

89
00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,559
Speaker 4: not helping you. But eleven is like, oh shit, for sure,

90
00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,680
Speaker 4: this is the thing. And around that time is when

91
00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:40,599
Speaker 4: I just decided to kill off the parent dream. You

92
00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:45,480
Speaker 4: got to like, just there weren't examples. You couldn't get

93
00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,800
Speaker 4: married legally. I didn't know a single queer person in

94
00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,560
Speaker 4: any way, shape or form, And on top of that,

95
00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,200
Speaker 4: the ones I did now that you might read about

96
00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,000
Speaker 4: or see in a movie they didn't have children. So

97
00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:57,920
Speaker 4: I just decided cool, Like, if this is your thing

98
00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:00,960
Speaker 4: and it's going to cause drama and you're probably gonna

99
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:02,520
Speaker 4: get kicked out of your house and you're definitely going

100
00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,359
Speaker 4: to get kicked out of the church, like just bury

101
00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:05,080
Speaker 4: that dream.

102
00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,440
Speaker 1: Is this I'm assuming over an extended period of time

103
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,960
Speaker 1: that you'll just shoveling and stream into the basement and

104
00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:12,599
Speaker 1: shutting the door.

105
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:17,240
Speaker 4: Absolutely. It's the technical term would be internalized homophobia. Right,

106
00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,320
Speaker 4: You're like taking all the homophobia from out there in

107
00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:21,039
Speaker 4: the world and you start to just bury it and

108
00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,240
Speaker 4: swallow it, and it gets bigger and bigger. The religious

109
00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,120
Speaker 4: element is quite interesting because you're also, on top of

110
00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,920
Speaker 4: that trying to apply pressure on yourself to be a

111
00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,560
Speaker 4: good Christian boy. Right, you want to get through it.

112
00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,200
Speaker 4: You want to like go to heaven if you can.

113
00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:37,560
Speaker 4: So I thought, okay, well I don't want to be

114
00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,200
Speaker 4: a sinner, and I did, so like why not just

115
00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,400
Speaker 4: not do any of that? Like why not you won't date?

116
00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,280
Speaker 4: You want to act on it, and yeah, figure out

117
00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,320
Speaker 4: how to be straight lie and so yeah, I guess

118
00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:54,559
Speaker 4: like between eleven and all the way up until twenty two. Wow,

119
00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,599
Speaker 4: I was like, that is you are never going to

120
00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,359
Speaker 4: be a parent. So that's the roller coaster. It's like

121
00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,279
Speaker 4: I started wanting nothing more but to be like my mom,

122
00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,119
Speaker 4: and then I decided you will never be a parent,

123
00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,240
Speaker 4: and then boom, the world starts to change and you

124
00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,080
Speaker 4: get to wake up to like, oh crap, Maybe you

125
00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,760
Speaker 4: can go back to that dream and revisit it. Maybe

126
00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:11,400
Speaker 4: you could be a dad.

127
00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,280
Speaker 1: When you're pretending to be straight, was it anything that

128
00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,880
Speaker 1: you pretended to like that you didn't like?

129
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,159
Speaker 4: But this is a straight People think that's so interesting

130
00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:31,400
Speaker 4: because sos.

131
00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:35,640
Speaker 5: Vagina just a while. Yes, in the that's all I

132
00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:36,440
Speaker 5: have to say.

133
00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:42,160
Speaker 2: Very good question. I mean that is the other than

134
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:47,920
Speaker 2: sexual organs more in the sport.

135
00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:54,800
Speaker 6: But yeah, you know, hard to unpick because the truth

136
00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:59,720
Speaker 6: is who I am today is built up of most

137
00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,440
Speaker 6: of those like I think we all do it.

138
00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,039
Speaker 4: We're young and we just like want to be like

139
00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:06,200
Speaker 4: our dads or want to be.

140
00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,640
Speaker 2: Like yeah, you fit in with that. Even with your mates,

141
00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:11,720
Speaker 2: so it's like they might like something as a as

142
00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,760
Speaker 2: a hetro. Yeah, it's like some mates might like something

143
00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:16,600
Speaker 2: that you kind of don't, but just because you want

144
00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:17,160
Speaker 2: to feed in with them.

145
00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,080
Speaker 4: You like, yeah, me too, I love motocross, and then

146
00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,560
Speaker 4: you can't unpick it. You're like, thirty years later you

147
00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,360
Speaker 4: really like some forty one, and you're like, why do

148
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:23,800
Speaker 4: we like some?

149
00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:28,240
Speaker 2: I was like when I was a kid, I really

150
00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,560
Speaker 2: didn't like him that much. I was just like everyone

151
00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:31,680
Speaker 2: else did exactly.

152
00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,440
Speaker 4: I come from a sports family, like elite athletes. My mom,

153
00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,080
Speaker 4: my dad, my brother, and my sister all went to

154
00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,680
Speaker 4: college like full paid wow. And so if sports is

155
00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,440
Speaker 4: the answer, like not, I'm a very big fan today

156
00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,560
Speaker 4: of basketball and tennis and I watch every day and

157
00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,920
Speaker 4: I'm like, watch the recaps from the States. But how

158
00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,760
Speaker 4: much of that actually is just because I wanted my

159
00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,760
Speaker 4: dad to think I was cool, like I had the

160
00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,240
Speaker 4: lingo that he had, Or like, if we're going to

161
00:07:58,280 --> 00:07:59,400
Speaker 4: go to games, am I going to be the one

162
00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,120
Speaker 4: whose days at home and does like arts and crafts

163
00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,360
Speaker 4: on the fucking table? Absolutely not. So yeah, probably sports

164
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,559
Speaker 4: is the answer. Even though it's very stereotypical, It's definitely true.

165
00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:10,680
Speaker 2: I think you may have pretended to like like it

166
00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:12,880
Speaker 2: for so long it became something that you actually really

167
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:13,880
Speaker 2: liked or lopd it.

168
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,680
Speaker 4: I often say to other people when they ask that question,

169
00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,240
Speaker 4: are in the realm of how much of being a

170
00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:23,920
Speaker 4: young boy, specifically trying to be macho, how much of

171
00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,720
Speaker 4: that performance lives in me today?

172
00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:27,120
Speaker 2: Mm?

173
00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:32,079
Speaker 4: Like, my voice is definitely lower than the stereotype of

174
00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,560
Speaker 4: oh my god, like the higher pitch kind of gay.

175
00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,520
Speaker 4: And how much of the way that I talk was

176
00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:39,560
Speaker 4: even shaped back then? When I'm talking to my dad

177
00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:41,880
Speaker 4: in the morning, you know, I say a lot of

178
00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,360
Speaker 4: words that me and my brother would say, like, hey man,

179
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:45,360
Speaker 4: hey bro, what's going up?

180
00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:45,880
Speaker 2: Dude?

181
00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,800
Speaker 4: I still talk that way. I don't know if I

182
00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,880
Speaker 4: was being raised today. You know, modern parents are pretty

183
00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,640
Speaker 4: cool with kids expressing themselves. If I wouldn't even sound

184
00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:58,840
Speaker 4: like this, I have no idea.

185
00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,720
Speaker 1: So then, in a world where your identity is so blurred,

186
00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,680
Speaker 1: how nice was it to have that dream of being

187
00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,720
Speaker 1: a dad be able to come back to life and

188
00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:10,920
Speaker 1: be an opportunity again.

189
00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:12,000
Speaker 4: Oh? It was pretty cool.

190
00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:13,160
Speaker 2: Do you remember the moment?

191
00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,680
Speaker 4: Yeah? Definitely. Josh and I met in New York City

192
00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,800
Speaker 4: when I was twenty two, and he was like, don't

193
00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:19,280
Speaker 4: have kids.

194
00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:20,800
Speaker 1: Are we in a park?

195
00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:27,200
Speaker 4: We We're in a We're all good romantic story. Had

196
00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,280
Speaker 4: a football game doing and cross. We were literally in

197
00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,120
Speaker 4: the bathroom line at a gay bar, so like you know,

198
00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:38,959
Speaker 4: yeah before like app culture had kind of exploded, and.

199
00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,160
Speaker 1: We probably just were next to each other.

200
00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,120
Speaker 4: He was behind me. He was actually an asshole. He

201
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,160
Speaker 4: goes a Santa Claus called he wants his hat back,

202
00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:46,679
Speaker 4: and I had like a red beanie on, and I

203
00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,080
Speaker 4: was like, I literally said fuck you, dude, and he

204
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,800
Speaker 4: just walked away into the like dropped the comment and

205
00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,280
Speaker 4: then booked it. And then maybe an hour later, I

206
00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,240
Speaker 4: had the hat off, like tucked in my back pocket,

207
00:09:58,280 --> 00:09:59,920
Speaker 4: like took it right off. I was like, you asshole.

208
00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:04,800
Speaker 2: I don't want influenced you.

209
00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,080
Speaker 4: You know, I don't want to look at Santa. And

210
00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,640
Speaker 4: he came back and he was like, don't fucking listen

211
00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,240
Speaker 4: to people like that. Like I was being like, don't listen. Well,

212
00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,040
Speaker 4: you put the hat back on, so I like put

213
00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,120
Speaker 4: it back on and then and then we wait out.

214
00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,319
Speaker 2: Pushed me against the beautiful so.

215
00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,760
Speaker 4: Uh like maybe like date four or five, he's like,

216
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,440
Speaker 4: do you want kids? And I was like absolutely not,

217
00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,560
Speaker 4: of course not. What do you mean what fantasy world

218
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:29,160
Speaker 4: are you living in?

219
00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:29,360
Speaker 1: Bro?

220
00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,480
Speaker 4: Like you think we're gonna have kids? Can't even get married.

221
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,959
Speaker 4: Use this in twenty eleven. Okay, so like technically there

222
00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,360
Speaker 4: were definitely queer people having children, but it was you know,

223
00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,200
Speaker 4: they were juggling, they were doing it with their friends

224
00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,640
Speaker 4: and turkey bastering in the bathroom, or you know, they

225
00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,400
Speaker 4: were adopting, but it was the stories up until then

226
00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:49,480
Speaker 4: we're few and far between.

227
00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I social media wasn't quite as at the forefront of either,

228
00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,720
Speaker 2: so it wouldn't have been like you could go onto

229
00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,600
Speaker 2: Instagram and follow someone's journey so closely.

230
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you would have to have really like we

231
00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,280
Speaker 4: went to adoption classes and you would see gay couples there,

232
00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,960
Speaker 4: but it was still one out of the like.

233
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,520
Speaker 1: Fifty what's an adoption class.

234
00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,560
Speaker 4: When you are considering doing adoption, like before you're alone. Yeah,

235
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,000
Speaker 4: you just go and like sit in an audience, you know,

236
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:18,480
Speaker 4: you're just in the back, and they teach you about

237
00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:19,960
Speaker 4: it and they talk about the process. They have a

238
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,280
Speaker 4: panel of people have gone through the process. I guess

239
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,040
Speaker 4: like an info session would have been better.

240
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,280
Speaker 1: And being a same sex couple, are they welcoming to

241
00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,480
Speaker 1: you or do you do you find that there was

242
00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,720
Speaker 1: a level of judgment when you walk through the door.

243
00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,960
Speaker 4: When you're a queer person, you do a lot of

244
00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,520
Speaker 4: I was going to say, unnecessary, but very necessary research

245
00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,240
Speaker 4: long before you put yourself in that uncomfortable situation. So

246
00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,480
Speaker 4: we just found the ones that on their website said

247
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,880
Speaker 4: like LGBTQI friendly or whatever. So we were in an

248
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,080
Speaker 4: environment where they would be like you and your wife.

249
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:56,959
Speaker 5: Or.

250
00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:01,920
Speaker 4: You two, or you but mostly you know, you're surrounded

251
00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:06,320
Speaker 4: by mostly straight people. And so I just thought he

252
00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,320
Speaker 4: was living in a fantasy land. And so over the

253
00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:13,200
Speaker 4: course of maybe five years, Josh changed his tune and decided, well,

254
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,480
Speaker 4: I want of kids Becausehan doesn't want them and I

255
00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:17,880
Speaker 4: want him. So we just you know, got married and

256
00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,360
Speaker 4: just thought that wasn't going to happen. But then when

257
00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,160
Speaker 4: you're living in New York City, it's a lot like

258
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,400
Speaker 4: I mean, there really isn't that many examples in Australia unfortunately.

259
00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:26,720
Speaker 2: Pets.

260
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:28,880
Speaker 4: No pets, absolutely not.

261
00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,120
Speaker 2: You think that maybe like a lot of people who

262
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,360
Speaker 2: think that they kind of have kids, they substitute it

263
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:35,040
Speaker 2: with pets.

264
00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,000
Speaker 4: I'm sure they do. I mean, gays love nothing more

265
00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:37,400
Speaker 4: than like.

266
00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:42,320
Speaker 6: A little chill, a little baby dog or great yeah,

267
00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:43,040
Speaker 6: but not for me.

268
00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,040
Speaker 4: I was like, no, I can barely take care of myself.

269
00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,439
Speaker 4: I was like twenty four years old. Yeah, New York City.

270
00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,760
Speaker 4: I was not going to have it. Like the idea

271
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,599
Speaker 4: of having a dog in a city just stresses the

272
00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,280
Speaker 4: shit out of me, Like those small little apartments. It

273
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,240
Speaker 4: was the size of this told you, I mean tons.

274
00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,439
Speaker 2: I was a year later than like what you're sort

275
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,920
Speaker 2: of talking about, and I was like, there's fucking dogs.

276
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,040
Speaker 2: There's more dogs and paper.

277
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,559
Speaker 1: But so at this point, you're twenty four. Josh's a

278
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:07,319
Speaker 1: bit older.

279
00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,600
Speaker 4: Though by decade. Yeah, yeah, so he has a decade

280
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:09,840
Speaker 4: on me.

281
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, which I guess makes sense to why he was

282
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,280
Speaker 1: championing this cause.

283
00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:15,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it mattered a lot more to him

284
00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:18,520
Speaker 4: ticking time, Like he was like, how much longer do

285
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:23,240
Speaker 4: I have? No, But he specifically said early on, like

286
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:24,600
Speaker 4: I don't want to be the dad who can't throw

287
00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:25,880
Speaker 4: his kid up in the air, Like I don't want

288
00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,480
Speaker 4: to start that far. And then what was funny is

289
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,360
Speaker 4: you just walking to New York City, one of the

290
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,439
Speaker 4: queerest cities in the world, right, and all of a

291
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,320
Speaker 4: sudden you're walking down the street and you start to

292
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,280
Speaker 4: see gay couples with children, like you know, you see one,

293
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,080
Speaker 4: and then five days later you see another, and then

294
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,400
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, you're in San Francisco or La

295
00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,560
Speaker 4: where I worked, and you're just seeing right in front

296
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,280
Speaker 4: of your eyes like queer people and not just queer

297
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:52,120
Speaker 4: people with children, like normally happy. They seem like just

298
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:56,160
Speaker 4: like everyone else. And it just started to like seep

299
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,720
Speaker 4: into my brain because I think it's important the distinction

300
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,960
Speaker 4: to understand. It's not just am I willing to do this?

301
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,080
Speaker 4: Because people have been willing to put themselves in uncomfortable situations,

302
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,840
Speaker 4: Diverse people have been willing to take huge gambles. It's

303
00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,680
Speaker 4: are you willing to do this and deal with the

304
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,120
Speaker 4: ramifications of it? And for me, the answer was no.

305
00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,280
Speaker 4: And then you start to see people who genuinely don't

306
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:20,320
Speaker 4: seem afraid. You know, You're walking by a school pickup

307
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,400
Speaker 4: and there's gay dads who are like Billy and they

308
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,080
Speaker 4: seem you know, and the moms are talking to them,

309
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,960
Speaker 4: and I thought, Hey, maybe it's maybe all the stories

310
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,960
Speaker 4: you've told yourself, the fear that has lived inside of

311
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,200
Speaker 4: you forever and ever and ever, maybe it actually won't

312
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:34,680
Speaker 4: be scary.

313
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,120
Speaker 1: That must be so fucking hard to digest.

314
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,320
Speaker 2: It's like that's such a true comment too, like just

315
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,920
Speaker 2: around a really a lot of things like where you

316
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,480
Speaker 2: like the stories you've told you, So, yeah, what is

317
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,120
Speaker 2: probably way worse than the actual reality of it.

318
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,480
Speaker 4: Totally. I think the gay lived experience is an insular

319
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,640
Speaker 4: like your parents aren't like you, your siblings aren't like you,

320
00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,000
Speaker 4: your neighbors aren't like you. When you're young, it's really

321
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:01,840
Speaker 4: hard to find other people like you, especially if you

322
00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:03,840
Speaker 4: grow up in a small town like I did. So

323
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,680
Speaker 4: when you're older, it's easy to convince yourself that everything

324
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,520
Speaker 4: you're going through is just you, like no one else

325
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:10,440
Speaker 4: has ever thought.

326
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,360
Speaker 2: To have, no one else has gone through, this is

327
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:13,680
Speaker 2: just me.

328
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:15,600
Speaker 4: And then you're in the city and you're like, well,

329
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,360
Speaker 4: here's a lot of options, tons of people, and they

330
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,320
Speaker 4: seem cool, like they obviously went through the same journey

331
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,120
Speaker 4: you did, Like maybe it is possible.

332
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,920
Speaker 1: So did you guys initially go down the adoption route there?

333
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we didn't know that there were other options.

334
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,240
Speaker 4: As informed and clever and savvy as we were. I

335
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,280
Speaker 4: just thought you foster or you adopt. So we went

336
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,000
Speaker 4: to some fostering sessions and realized right away that that

337
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,680
Speaker 4: wasn't going to work out for us. Just the emotional

338
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,600
Speaker 4: stress of potentially falling in love with a child and

339
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,200
Speaker 4: then having them go back to the family. I was like,

340
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,120
Speaker 4: I can't do that. It's beautiful. People should absolutely look

341
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:48,680
Speaker 4: into it if they can.

342
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,880
Speaker 2: And was there an expectation that you know, adopting was

343
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,040
Speaker 2: the right thing to do or the only option that

344
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,080
Speaker 2: you had. Was there like a big expectation on that.

345
00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think definitely. And I remember when I talked

346
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,760
Speaker 4: to other people about having kids. I think the pressure

347
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,760
Speaker 4: they put specifically on queer people, it's like, you're going

348
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,560
Speaker 4: to adopt, right, they would say it. So you're like, yeah,

349
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:08,840
Speaker 4: I guess that is what I'm going to do. And

350
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,080
Speaker 4: if you google back then, like I I never I

351
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,400
Speaker 4: didn't see websites that were like gay people can do

352
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,320
Speaker 4: IVF Sarahacy, I didn't even know what that word was.

353
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,720
Speaker 4: The story goes I was on Facebook one day, as

354
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,760
Speaker 4: you do in twenty eleven, and some girl posts like pregnant,

355
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,360
Speaker 4: and I didn't even read the post. I just commented

356
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,880
Speaker 4: and was like, congratulations, so happy for you and your husband,

357
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,560
Speaker 4: And then she just sent me a DM that was like, Hey,

358
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,960
Speaker 4: not sure if you read the post, but I'm I'm sarrogate,

359
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,600
Speaker 4: like I'm caring for someone else, so it's actually not

360
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,560
Speaker 4: my and I was like, what are you talking about? What?

361
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,040
Speaker 4: I googled it right away and was like, oh my god,

362
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:48,520
Speaker 4: she's pregnant for someone else.

363
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,000
Speaker 2: That's wild yea.

364
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,480
Speaker 4: And she said, when this pregnancy is over, I would

365
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:55,600
Speaker 4: love to carry for you and Josh, oh my, And

366
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:57,280
Speaker 4: then all of a sudden, you go from having no

367
00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,760
Speaker 4: idea what this option is too, this is my option.

368
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:02,960
Speaker 4: She is going to carry my children, like you know.

369
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,640
Speaker 2: It must be like such a surreal moment. And then

370
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,199
Speaker 2: you guys going because someone's willing to do that for us.

371
00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:10,280
Speaker 2: Holy shit.

372
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,600
Speaker 1: There's a few different pieces to the puzzle, right because

373
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,280
Speaker 1: you've got you've got someone to carry, but you do

374
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:18,760
Speaker 1: use her egg.

375
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,200
Speaker 4: So you definitely can. So there are lots of options.

376
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,480
Speaker 4: There is anonymous donors for eggs, anonymous donors for sperm,

377
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,479
Speaker 4: so you could not use you or your partner at

378
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,200
Speaker 4: all and just take a sperm and an egg donor

379
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,120
Speaker 4: create the embryo, and you could have children that are

380
00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,840
Speaker 4: not biologically connected to either one of you for whatever reason,

381
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,080
Speaker 4: maybe you have both of you and your partner. Would

382
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:40,640
Speaker 4: that be safe.

383
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,600
Speaker 2: I don't want to sound horrible a cost effective option

384
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,760
Speaker 2: that way, No, I mean, yeah, how do you put

385
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,080
Speaker 2: a pross on a human life. I'm not trying to.

386
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,359
Speaker 4: Say no, it's now. These are good questions because you

387
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,440
Speaker 4: have to pay for both yea and yeah. There's a

388
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,920
Speaker 4: cost attached to both of them. There's a cost attached

389
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,520
Speaker 4: sometimes to the retrieval process. So if you select someone

390
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,760
Speaker 4: who hasn't gone through the process, who hasn't donated to

391
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:04,879
Speaker 4: a bank either for egg or sperm, you got to

392
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,520
Speaker 4: pay for them to go through the whole pot. So

393
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,360
Speaker 4: what a lot of people do is the most people

394
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,960
Speaker 4: who do serrogce or IVF for straight is they take

395
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,120
Speaker 4: the sperm or the eggs from whatever partner can give naturally,

396
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:20,600
Speaker 4: and then they combine. And so you can do that

397
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,760
Speaker 4: where one partner gives and then the eggs or the

398
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,320
Speaker 4: sperm come from a bank and then I guess the other.

399
00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,800
Speaker 4: That's like the two IVF process. So for us, we

400
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,800
Speaker 4: had to throw a massive spanner in the works of

401
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,359
Speaker 4: the story. I started telling everyone that we were going

402
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 4: to do surrogacy, and then someone came forward from my

403
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:41,399
Speaker 4: family and offered to donate eggs.

404
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,960
Speaker 2: Wow, I can't imagine the feeling like how amazing that

405
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:46,480
Speaker 2: would have been.

406
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:48,639
Speaker 1: Also, I guess there must be a little cases though,

407
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,320
Speaker 1: where someone is like, that sounds great, I'd love to

408
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,560
Speaker 1: help out, and then when it comes to the actual point,

409
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,960
Speaker 1: they're actually, this is yeah.

410
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,320
Speaker 4: Oh so many girlfriends of mine had said yeah, I'd love.

411
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:07,840
Speaker 2: I am Now.

412
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,320
Speaker 4: I think that whole three month period, because it was

413
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,720
Speaker 4: three months really between finding out that there was you know,

414
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,760
Speaker 4: we would go down the surrogacy path and then getting

415
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:22,080
Speaker 4: the offer. The world has been pretty dark, like if

416
00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:26,080
Speaker 4: you just use social media, the news consumptioning, it's easy

417
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 4: to get wrapped up and like things are not great.

418
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,000
Speaker 4: And at that time Trump states that's what it's like

419
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,239
Speaker 4: to live in America. At that time, it's like a

420
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,760
Speaker 4: lot of tension. Then you have these two people who

421
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:38,639
Speaker 4: are like, I will put my life on the line

422
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,200
Speaker 4: because we're not talking about like, you know, pregnancy. Both

423
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,760
Speaker 4: of you do like you're literally risking your life for

424
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,879
Speaker 4: a stranger. All of a sudden, I thought, maybe the

425
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,080
Speaker 4: world's not so shit, Like this is pretty impressive.

426
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:49,800
Speaker 2: It's pretty cool.

427
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,800
Speaker 4: Selflessness to a t And then you think of my

428
00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:58,199
Speaker 4: family member, what outside of the physical ramifications of going

429
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:06,040
Speaker 4: through an egg retrieval, the psychological layers of being around

430
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,720
Speaker 4: those children potentially for the rest of their lives and yours,

431
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,600
Speaker 4: and to always know that there is a biological component

432
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:14,600
Speaker 4: and there's a lot of layers there. For sure. You

433
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:16,920
Speaker 4: got you know, she went to therapy and she did

434
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,040
Speaker 4: that work, and before she brought it up to us,

435
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,240
Speaker 4: she did all of that stuff. So she did a

436
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:21,679
Speaker 4: lot of one.

437
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 1: I'm assuming because it's a family member. Josh used his spem.

438
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,239
Speaker 4: You know that you were the first person to not

439
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,320
Speaker 4: immediately go So who gave this car? Good for you,

440
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:36,679
Speaker 4: Thank you. I'm always like if me and my family

441
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,359
Speaker 4: member maybe embryos that would not turn up. Yeah, So

442
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 4: the decision was easy, Like, once you have that egg offer,

443
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,639
Speaker 4: it's just one hundred percent get Josh tested a okay,

444
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,440
Speaker 4: good to go make the embryos.

445
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:49,400
Speaker 2: Wow.

446
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,280
Speaker 1: So I guess in a sense there is a biological

447
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,400
Speaker 1: connection with your children to.

448
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,360
Speaker 4: Both Yeah, did you was it.

449
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 1: Any different you're having children that are not from your sperm.

450
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a good question. I think for probably six

451
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,399
Speaker 4: months I was like, Okay, you got to come to

452
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 4: terms with the fact that he's going to be the

453
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,880
Speaker 4: biological dad, and you're not going to have that relationship.

454
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 4: When I looked into like the science of the way

455
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 4: in which family members are connected. I don't know if

456
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,000
Speaker 4: you've ever met someone you're like, you look so much

457
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 4: like your uncle, you look so much like your grandfather,

458
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,160
Speaker 4: but you don't look like your father, you don't look

459
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,080
Speaker 4: like your mother. So I thought, maybe there's this hope

460
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:30,560
Speaker 4: that my kids are going to look just like me.

461
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,120
Speaker 4: And you've seen them. They look just like me. They

462
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 4: look a lot more like me sometimes than my husband.

463
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 4: And people say that, and I'm sure that feels like

464
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,119
Speaker 4: God to him because he's like, it's me.

465
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,440
Speaker 2: But even even for like for us, like I'll say

466
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 2: to Matt, Lola looks so much like Laura, but Marley

467
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 2: looks so much like Matt. And my mom was like yeah.

468
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,159
Speaker 2: My mom was like, you just met these kids. And

469
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 2: then she's like, oh, I see a lot of Laura,

470
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,159
Speaker 2: and I see a lot of metal on Laines. And

471
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 2: then same with my kids, like my son is like

472
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 2: mini me, you know, like but then some people be like, oh,

473
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 2: I see so much people in Oscar. What hell?

474
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,120
Speaker 1: But it does it does hurt when when people say,

475
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,639
Speaker 1: you know, along the lines of you didn't really get

476
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 1: a looking with Lola. It's just a spitting image of Laura.

477
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh my yeah, my jeans are weak

478
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 1: like Oscar.

479
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 2: So like my half of my family, part of my

480
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,399
Speaker 2: family's indigenous. So Oscar really got that it's really dark.

481
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 2: He had a Mongolian patch, like he's he is an

482
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 2: indigenous kid. Then my daughter is she is pale, she's

483
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 2: I always joke that she glows in the dark and

484
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 2: a redhead. But I went to an indigenous school with

485
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,679
Speaker 2: a lot of redhead indigenous kids. But like it's like

486
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 2: a lot of people be like, look at her and

487
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 2: then look at me, and they go, she's not your

488
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 2: like as a joke, and I'm like, well, I'm just

489
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,120
Speaker 2: look at it was like the Milkman's kid probably, but

490
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,360
Speaker 2: like yeah, it's it's like it does hurt.

491
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: Sometimes and you're like, oh shit, do you think do

492
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 1: you think it a great deal? Knowing that they had

493
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 1: a load of, you know, appearance wise, very similar to

494
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 1: yourself and your.

495
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 4: Family, Yeah, I think so. I mean, I'll be honest,

496
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,640
Speaker 4: I did a lot of work long before we made

497
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 4: the decision to do it, because once you decide you

498
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 4: want to have kids. You have to decide can you

499
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 4: deal with all of this? Can you financially throw down

500
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 4: the amount of money that is required to go through

501
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 4: IVF and pay as arrogate all of that? Right, it's

502
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,919
Speaker 4: hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's the average person couldn't

503
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 4: even do it without taking out a huge long So

504
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 4: you got to do all that, and then psychologically you

505
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 4: got to decide am I cool with this? And I

506
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,119
Speaker 4: just decided really early on, like I just want to

507
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 4: be a dad, Like I don't give a shit. I

508
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 4: don't care the color of their skin. I don't care

509
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 4: what their gender is. I don't care how we get

510
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 4: these children. You know, for a lot of straight people,

511
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 4: you know, but don't boom, it just happens like it's

512
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 4: an accident. You're like, here we go, shit, sorry. So

513
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 4: I think for me it was like listen, you know

514
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 4: you're already different. You got to hack the system to

515
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 4: make this dream a reality. Who cares? Who cares? There

516
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 4: is not a single moment that I've ever looked at

517
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 4: my children since they were born and been like, do

518
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 4: you know how much it costs to bring you this world?

519
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 4: Like I tell them, I've never used like my lack

520
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 4: of biological connection. They don't know that they know exactly

521
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 4: where they came from and how our family was made.

522
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 4: But they don't think I'm less than than Josh right,

523
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 4: and I went, it's an emotional story.

524
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 2: He saw it.

525
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 4: He is crying.

526
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: Sorry.

527
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 4: I tried to hold that in so bad that it

528
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 4: made it work. So yeah, it's pretty good.

529
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: And so the kids were born in the States.

530
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's not legal to do what we did.

531
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,880
Speaker 2: Can you just elaborate on that phone? Part of it

532
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 2: is not legal.

533
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 4: So there are two types of surrogacy. There's altruistic or

534
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 4: you do it out of the goodness of your heart.

535
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 4: So your siblings, your they could totally do it for you,

536
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 4: but they would need to do it for free, so

537
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 4: they would not get compensation. Right, So the moment you

538
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 4: would pay someone for the time going to the hospital,

539
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 4: the clothes that they need to wear, the food that

540
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 4: they need to eat, all the visits, the actual surgery,

541
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 4: the time off from work, like you know, compensating for

542
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 4: what they're doing for your family.

543
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 2: And this could be sorry, this could be a really

544
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 2: dumb question, and I apologize if it is. How much

545
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: do you pay someone to do all of that.

546
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 4: So I think at the top range of like Beyonce,

547
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 4: it's probably like hundreds of thousands of dollars, like eight

548
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 4: hundred thousands. There's estimates about her specific story because it's

549
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 4: similar to ours with the twins, anywhere between like five

550
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 4: and eight hundred thousand. The average is like thirty to

551
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 4: fifty to seventy five. And that's based off of the

552
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 4: sarrogates experience giving birth. So if she has, like our sarrogate,

553
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 4: had three children already, her family's finished, she carried all

554
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 4: three to term, didn't need any, didn't have ce Suasashi,

555
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 4: she's perfect. Someone like that who who would probably charge

556
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 4: a little bit more potentially than someone who this is

557
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 4: their first time. Wow, but you know that thirty to

558
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 4: like seventy five ranges, probably they're going cost So.

559
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: Then you've been through this very long and difficult, sometimes confusing,

560
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: expensive journey. You're now a dad, the children are born.

561
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: Is it everything you've dreamt.

562
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 4: Of being a parent? Oh? God, No, it's like so shitty.

563
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 4: I mean, listen, we know it's just like kids don't

564
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 4: go easy on you because you're gay. They don't go easy.

565
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 4: They don't know your sexual heality, Well, society doesn't care

566
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 4: really at all, Like they're all the additional elements that

567
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 4: get you there, Like once the child is in your hand,

568
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 4: it's just as difficult as everybody else's. I think the

569
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 4: one thing I have going for me and people who

570
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 4: struggled to conceive straight couples who went down eleven you know,

571
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 4: sometimes you'll hear those stories, they've gone down seven cycles eleven.

572
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 4: The only difference is in the beginning you are absolutely

573
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 4: a lot more thankful and gracious with yourself. When things

574
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 4: are really difficult, you constantly check in and you're like,

575
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 4: so I had this conversation with myself and I still do.

576
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 4: Or I'll look in the mirror and be like, do

577
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 4: you understand that for all of human history, all of it,

578
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 4: the whole entire time, people like you couldn't even get

579
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 4: married the whole time, All for all of human history,

580
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 4: people like you who loved like you do couldn't have kids. Yea,

581
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 4: and you just happen to be born in the exact

582
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 4: fucking decade. That shit's crazy. So when parents, when parenting

583
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 4: is really stressful, which is you know, every single day

584
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 4: you're fighting with your partner, I do have these moments

585
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 4: where I look in the mirror and I'm like, bro,

586
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 4: you do not understand what an amazing lucky gift you had.

587
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 4: And that does help like ten percent of the time.

588
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: Because can I ask that could do two things? Put

589
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: wind in your sale, but then also put a huge

590
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 1: amount of guilt on your shoulders if you can't snap

591
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: out of it. And if you're like, I'm so fucking

592
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: lucky and I'm not appreciating this, I'm not loving it

593
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: with every fiver of my body. I'm a piece of shit.

594
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good point. It's interesting I haven't gone

595
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 4: down the negative path so much because, to be honest,

596
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 4: every parent who's listening to this knows like there's not

597
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 4: a lot that can coach you out of a shitty day.

598
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 4: It just it's pretty stressed.

599
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: Once you're in it, you're in it.

600
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 4: It's intense. And I never on a day to day basis,

601
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 4: I don't think about my sexuality. Ever. I'm not like

602
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 4: walking to the cafe being like here, I am walking

603
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 4: a flat it doesn't happen.

604
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: You put your pinky out.

605
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 4: See, But the moments where I am reminded are around

606
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 4: other parents. Yeah, so you are constantly confronted with the

607
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 4: fact that you're just a little bit different when you're

608
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 4: filling out forms or at the doctor's off and you

609
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 4: have to cross out mother and p father.

610
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: But I'm always surprised. I don't spoken about it before elsewhere,

611
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: and it's just a sign of my naivety, I guess.

612
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: But a mother's group for you, that was something that

613
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: was very difficult. Can you explain that?

614
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, listen, I moved to a new country with two

615
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 4: month old twins. My husband had been gone for twelve years,

616
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 4: so even though he's coming home, the world has changed.

617
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 4: Like his mates have kids that are as old as

618
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 4: you know, fifteen all the way down, so they're busy

619
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 4: with their lives. I left my job the day that

620
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 4: the kids were born, and so I don't have a job,

621
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 4: I don't have friends. Josh's family didn't live here at

622
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 4: the time. I'm just starting fresh. And on top of that,

623
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 4: I'm a stay at home down with twins, and so

624
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 4: I thought, I gotta get into a parenting group. I

625
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 4: have to, like or else, Like, what am I going

626
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 4: to do? And so I just went to the New

627
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 4: South Wales government website and started searching around and I

628
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 4: called the local hospital and I was like, Hi, I've

629
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 4: just moved to Balmain and I'm just wondering if you

630
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,479
Speaker 4: could connect me with a local parenting group. She was like,

631
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 4: I'm confused. Did you get birth here, sir? But she

632
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 4: was like, you didn't get birth here? Yes it is,

633
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 4: and so they couldn't help me. They were like, really sorry,

634
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 4: but if you get birth here, we can connect you

635
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 4: with that specific group. So but don't worry. The government

636
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 4: website has information you'll be able to find something. I

637
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 4: logged on and back then there was just mothers groups

638
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 4: and I thought, well, I'll just find the local mothers group.

639
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 4: Couldn't figure it out through the website, went to the

640
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 4: Facebook group. You got to apply for the new South

641
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 4: Wales Mother's group. You have to apply and I obviously

642
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 4: didn't get accepted. I'm a dude, like they didn't welcome me.

643
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 4: I'm still waiting on the acceptance.

644
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: We should check on that.

645
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 4: And it's pending. And so I decided, okay, well, if

646
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 4: it's not working through that formal process, just go up

647
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 4: to the mother's groups. I went to the park, you know,

648
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 4: five days a week in Balmain, and I saw that

649
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 4: there was a group of women who were meeting every

650
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 4: Tuesday and Thursday. No joke like psycho on my pH.

651
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 2: Like what she just did? Do? And I behave with

652
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 2: two kids.

653
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 6: I went to school for active good morning, Hi ladies,

654
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 6: you've got.

655
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 4: But I was like, those are my ones because all

656
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 4: their kids are the same age. That's all I was

657
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 4: looking for, was like are they around the same age?

658
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 4: And so I slowly befriended one of them, who sometimes

659
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 4: was there on her own. She was very nice to me,

660
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 4: and then I just asked one day. I was like, hey,

661
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 4: I'm new our kids are the same age, Like are

662
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 4: you accepting new members?

663
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: Is there a form?

664
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 4: Really nice, I swear, and she they all this woman

665
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 4: looked at me and she just had the look in

666
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 4: her eyes of like I'm gonna let you down, bro.

667
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 4: But she was like, I'm really sorry. We don't feel

668
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 4: comfortable having a guy in the group.

669
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: Uh.

670
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: Wow.

671
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 4: To be honest, I got it in the moment. I'm

672
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 4: still a little upset about it. But in the moment,

673
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 4: I thought, our kids are brand new, they're all two

674
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 4: months old. And her answer was like, we're talking about

675
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,959
Speaker 4: some serious shit, like we're talking about bloody. She told me,

676
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 4: like I think what she said, was like, we're talking

677
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 4: about like Vagina's ripping open to buttholes. And I was like, listen,

678
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 4: I can handle that. You don't know what game, bloody buttles,

679
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 4: that's nothing you're supposed to say.

680
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would be like, whoa.

681
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: It's a bit of an asshole move.

682
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

683
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 4: The number one part of my book that I get

684
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 4: contacted by by far eighty percent of women who reach

685
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 4: out is just because of that story, and fifty percent

686
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 4: of them are like, I totally get why they said no,

687
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 4: because in that early phase, yeah, you want to go

688
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 4: to that table and rip on your husband, just want

689
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 4: to rip on them. And then here at the table

690
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 4: is a dude like who might Yeah, he's a spy.

691
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 4: I'm literally a spy. And I can't say to them,

692
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 4: don't worry, I'm the wife in the relationship. I get

693
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 4: it too. None of that means anything. Also, they don't

694
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 4: know me. I'm random. Yeah, and most of the time

695
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 4: when I'm at the playground. And I'm sure you guys

696
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 4: can relate to this, but in those early days in Balmain,

697
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 4: at least, there weren't a lot of dads out there,

698
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 4: and when there were, we didn't like we had awkward chats,

699
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 4: but the moms didn't talk to me. Also, I'm young

700
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 4: and beautiful. They were confused. I think they thought I

701
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 4: was threatened. You just say to me all the time,

702
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 4: like how long have you been with the kids? Like

703
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 4: their whole lives? But I think, you know, sometimes I look,

704
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 4: I address the way I dress, like I think it's

705
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 4: confusing to people, like what are you doing here? Clearly homosexual?

706
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: Like what are you doing?

707
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,479
Speaker 4: You must be a nanny. So they just ignored me.

708
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 4: So I think I just decided in that moment, like

709
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,479
Speaker 4: that's not going to be for you. So you're going

710
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 4: to have to figure out your own way. And so

711
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 4: I just didn't parenting.

712
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 2: So it would have made you feel really really isolated.

713
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 2: I don't know where we would be without them in

714
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 2: a way, so I can imagine that would have been really,

715
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: really tough.

716
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: Who became your biggest support network?

717
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 4: Then I didn't have one. So I met my you know,

718
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 4: my best parenting friend, and eighteen months and wow, okay,

719
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 4: so I didn't time. I did it so well. But

720
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 4: I guess like the elephant in the room as I spiraled,

721
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 4: So it wasn't like I just skipped through the eighteen

722
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 4: months by myself. I just decided to be isolated. I

723
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 4: obviously have a great husband, but he was working full

724
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 4: time and yeah, yeah, I just decided, you'll have to

725
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 4: figure it out by yourself. And that's what I've since

726
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 4: learned because the government has changed their policy and now

727
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 4: they're you go on the website and there are fathers

728
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 4: scripts and parent groups and fathers.

729
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 2: As they totally should. Yeah, especially like I know for me,

730
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 2: I've got mate, I've got friends that as as guys

731
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: have sort of have isolated themselves in that early in

732
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 2: those early moments as well. And since Matt and I

733
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 2: did a mental health episode last year and since then,

734
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 2: I've had heaps of them come back to me and say, shit,

735
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 2: I didn't know you were feeling like that too, And

736
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 2: I felt like that and now like now that they're now,

737
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 2: they're feeling better. But like it's it should It's crazy

738
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 2: that the world was like that where it was like,

739
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: you know, he gives a shit about it that, Yeah,

740
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: no matter the circumstance. And I think it.

741
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 4: Depends where you live, like in Bondi and in most

742
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 4: of the Inner West. I've heard a lot like Northern

743
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 4: Beaches like parenting groups even back then where dads were

744
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 4: able to kind of pilot in at random moments and

745
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:20,479
Speaker 4: watch the kids with the same group.

746
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: Also, yeah, that's.

747
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 2: Sort of what the deal that we have, But now

748
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: we've all just developed into Yeah, but.

749
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 4: I guess you have to take into consideration like what

750
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 4: Balmain is and what it was, then it's a different

751
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 4: group of people. And so I just decided that Bowmain

752
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 4: was all of Australia, which was a little naive, but

753
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 4: in the moment, you know, you're very lonely, you're sleep deprived,

754
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 4: so you do jump to these nasty conclusions. And so I,

755
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 4: instead of doing what I could have done, which is like,

756
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 4: if not Balmain, then Roselle, and if not Roselle then

757
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 4: like Harden. If not Liker and.

758
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: Just working like a salesman, I'm.

759
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 4: Off the park, I would have found them.

760
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: When did you realize that your mental health was something

761
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 1: that you couldn't deal with on your own.

762
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 4: I've had a long, tumultuous history with mental health, so

763
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 4: you know, as a young queer kid in the church,

764
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 4: popped up pretty early, and so my mom put me

765
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 4: in therapy when I was twelve.

766
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 2: Wow, she was like, I don't.

767
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 4: Have the answers to deal with whatever the hell you're

768
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 4: going through. In America, we have worked a couple decades

769
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 4: ahead of Australia as far as it not being that shameful,

770
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 4: specifically for men to get mental health support. And so

771
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 4: she was like, I don't know, the answers will give

772
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 4: you a local therapist. And so from twelve all the

773
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 4: way up until the story, I had been in and

774
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 4: out of therapy whenever I needed it, you know, when

775
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 4: things were going tough, I would sign up and then

776
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 4: I would, you know, drop back. But I thought, specifically

777
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 4: to go back to what you said about feeling the

778
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 4: pressure of being the first generation of gay parents. I decided,

779
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 4: you fought for this, you paid for it. People don't

780
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 4: want you to do this, so do not complain. Bro,

781
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 4: shut up. Oh you're sad.

782
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: Oh it's you know.

783
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 4: I just was like, shut you're.

784
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 2: Just like, you know, yeah, you wouldn't allow yourself to

785
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 2: be sad and beyond great, not ungrateful, but like have

786
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 2: that feeling. It's like, well, people have never had this chance,

787
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 2: so just shut up and get on with it.

788
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 4: Literally, And I wasn't going to complain to my husband

789
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 4: because I had begged him to be a stay at

790
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 4: home dad, Like I'd put pressure on him, you got

791
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 4: to get that next job, get the money, because I

792
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 4: don't want to work, Like you know, I felt like

793
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:18,919
Speaker 4: I convinced my parents I was going to be great

794
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 4: at this, so I just kept shot. But the moment

795
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 4: that I was like, oh, do you need help for sure?

796
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 4: Is I had been working out a exit strategy to

797
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 4: get out of the country by myself, very kind of

798
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 4: like unbeknownst to me, it was just happening. I would

799
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 4: like Google at night one way ticket's best place to

800
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 4: escape to countries you can disappear, and just like almost

801
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 4: as a joke, but like how many people do it?

802
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 4: And then one night I went to the airport in

803
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 4: the middle of the night, three in the morning, just

804
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 4: slammed the door of the kids. They had shit everywhere

805
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 4: and I just couldn't handle it anymore, grabbed the keys,

806
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 4: drove to Sydney International Airport, got out and just like

807
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 4: I looked at the entrance and I was like, are

808
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 4: you gonna are you gonna? Like? Whoa, Like your mind

809
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 4: is broken, dude, Like huge, huge step.

810
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: What was stopping you? Then when you're at at the airport, Yeah,

811
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: and you've been fantasizing about getting away. What was holding

812
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: you back?

813
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 4: It's interesting it wasn't necessarily being held back. It was,

814
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 4: weirdly enough, the reminder of what I needed, which was

815
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 4: my husband. You know, those early days, it's the only

816
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 4: thing you want to do is like to get a divorce,

817
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 4: Like I don't want anything to do with you. I

818
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 4: don't want your help. Plus I'm lying to you, so

819
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 4: I'm not telling you what's happening because I want you

820
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 4: to seem like I'm really good at this. I don't

821
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 4: want you to be afraid that I'm the one being

822
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 4: left with the kids and I'm depressed and crying every day.

823
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 4: Like if I had done that, I don't know what

824
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:49,919
Speaker 4: he would have done. I thought maybe the kids would

825
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,720
Speaker 4: get taken away. That's what I thought, Like, hey, husband,

826
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,240
Speaker 4: when you're gone at work, I cry in the shower.

827
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 4: I cry when i'm make him in breakfast. I cry

828
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 4: while they nap, Like, yeah, I just keep your mouth shut.

829
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 2: Super common though, So I was Josh in the situation, right,

830
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 2: I would work full time, not what I do now,

831
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 2: which I'm really reflexible. I was nine to five in

832
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 2: the city from Northern Beaches. I was gone for twelve

833
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 2: hours of the day. I come home to a broken

834
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 2: person sitting in my house with my only child that

835
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 2: I could have resented. So like, yeah, like you don't

836
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 2: want them as much as Apel tried to hide it

837
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 2: from me. You know you can tell.

838
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean exactly, even the fake smiles like they

839
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 4: can sense something's up. But at the moment, I remember

840
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 4: at the airport just thinking, oh shit, I just need Josh,

841
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 4: like that's what I need.

842
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: So did you call them or did you drive home?

843
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 4: It was like four in the morning, so I I

844
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 4: drove back home and I got into bed, and I

845
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 4: didn't say anything, and I promised myself that I wasn't

846
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 4: going to tell anyone.

847
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,280
Speaker 1: He woke up totally unaware.

848
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 4: He found out when the book came out.

849
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: Holy shit.

850
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 4: I mean I obviously told them before. I was like,

851
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 4: would you like to read this?

852
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 2: Just read this line? And you're sitting there with your

853
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 2: see with you.

854
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: He wakes up and goes, I have this weird someone

855
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:11,879
Speaker 1: took the car.

856
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: At the airport.

857
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 4: No, but when you walk up, I did say I

858
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 4: need help, like I need to get I need to

859
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 4: get to a doctor. I think I think the words

860
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 4: I used were I'm like, I think right now I

861
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 4: might be a danger to the kids, was what I said.

862
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 4: You just call the doctor's office and they're like, we

863
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 4: can see you in seven seven business.

864
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 2: They're so brave love you to do that because so

865
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 2: many people don't.

866
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 4: Thanks.

867
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 2: We've you know, had people reach out to us sort

868
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 2: have said, like a lot of like young moms have

869
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 2: said I think my husband going through a similar thing,

870
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: or I think I'm going through a similar thing, or

871
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 2: even even dad's like I think my wife's the same

872
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 2: as what you know. And it's so it's so brave

873
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 2: of you to like actually say it out loud, to

874
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 2: even though it's the closest person to you, like it's crazy.

875
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 4: That's to hear. I think it goes back to like

876
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 4: the foundation of therapy, the foundation of being like, hey,

877
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 4: I'm struggling because even though I'm gay, like I have

878
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 4: all the same issues that every guy has from being

879
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 4: a man in society where it's like just tough enough,

880
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 4: like shut up, yeah you didn't get birth. You hear

881
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 4: a breastfeeding every day, get over yourself, like shut up.

882
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 4: Was it like that that narrative was still in my

883
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 4: head be tough, like man up a little bit. It

884
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 4: was absolutely that narrative. But if you have a foundation

885
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 4: of love when things are shitty, of raising your hand

886
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 4: just one person, it doesn't need to be a lot.

887
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 1: It isn't.

888
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 4: It can just be a stranger too. But in that

889
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 4: moment of being like, okay, you got to you got

890
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 4: to tell somebody.

891
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 2: And write it down. Yeah, write it down and slought

892
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 2: him a not so whatever works for you.

893
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,839
Speaker 1: When you started seeing someone professionally to get help. And

894
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: this is coming from again a place of naivity because

895
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: I haven't gone through that process myself. But are there

896
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: any tools that you're given to better handle the situation

897
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: or is it just a case of being with a

898
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: therapist and airing out those thoughts is what helps in itself.

899
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 4: The government is pretty impressive, like this country when it

900
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 4: comes to healthcare. You know, we can judge it in isolation,

901
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 4: but when you consider some of the other countries in

902
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 4: the world. The fact that I went to the doctors,

903
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 4: I immediately took a postnatal depression test which said mother

904
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 4: on the page twice, So like, you got to deal

905
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 4: with that drama. It work absolutely makes it worse. You're like, great,

906
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 4: not only have I failed this is like the lot

907
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 4: you're not a single man problem that they've never once

908
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 4: considered before. And the doctor was like, my apologies fold

909
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 4: at the top.

910
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 2: Subtle, at least he tried.

911
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 4: So you take the test and what comes out as

912
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 4: a number, and if the number is above a specific

913
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 4: thing like above twenty, it means you know things are bad,

914
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 4: and if it's above thirty, that person needs psychchiatric support immediately.

915
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 4: And my number was in that category, so immediately I

916
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,280
Speaker 4: qualify to go to Trisillian, which is a full funded

917
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 4: government house hospital where you can go and for a

918
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,919
Speaker 4: couple of days have help with sleep and they take

919
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 4: care of the kids and they work with you to

920
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 4: help sleep trains so that you can get to a

921
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 4: place because all of this is happening, as we all know,

922
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 4: while you're sleep deprived. And so if you can get

923
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 4: the parent in a better mental headspace through sleep so

924
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 4: they're not literally sleep deprived, then they can think more clearly.

925
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 2: They take your baby from you at night. That was one.

926
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 2: So like we did this thing. We did eight weeks essentially,

927
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 2: and like the first week is really important for mom, dad,

928
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 2: whoever to get rest because they're like the number one

929
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 2: thing is just get some rest, like and you honestly,

930
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,439
Speaker 2: even week after, just like a week in and you've

931
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 2: got the rest again, you start to think so much

932
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 2: more clearly about your situation. Absolutely, it's so helpful.

933
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,399
Speaker 1: There's a reason why sleep deprivation is a form of.

934
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 4: Torture because it works made like they're talking at you

935
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 4: and you're just feeling worse and worse and worse, or

936
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 4: they're asking you questions and or in another world thinking

937
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 4: about escaping, and so to get the sleep and then

938
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 4: be able to look at the doctor, I guess, like

939
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 4: the best things that they did for me, I did

940
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 4: get medical support, so I went on medication right away.

941
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 4: It was clear that where I was at was actually

942
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 4: dangerous for myself, for my husband, for my children, and

943
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 4: so I that medical support was embarrassing. Like I was embarrassed. Absolutely,

944
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 4: that was one of the lowest points where I.

945
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 2: Thought not only of much medicated.

946
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I didn't want that. When they told it

947
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 4: to me, I said, what's the other option? Because I'm

948
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 4: definitely not doing that too.

949
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: What do they say in that situation?

950
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 4: Oh, He's like, well, we can explore like the sunrise,

951
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 4: like the sun outside and eating healthy, but.

952
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 2: Meditation, exercise that just the general jog and really.

953
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 4: And then I just had excuses and I was like,

954
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 4: I'm an stay at home dad, like my husband works,

955
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 4: what's going to happen. I don't have family here, I

956
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 4: don't have friends, Like, I don't know what you want.

957
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 4: I can't get to the local mothers group, so like

958
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 4: you're giving me these options. It don't make sense for me.

959
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,839
Speaker 4: And what he said, which I will always remember, is

960
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 4: we need to get Sean back and if we can

961
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 4: use medicine, even if it's just for three months, a

962
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 4: really short period of time, to get your clear head.

963
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,320
Speaker 4: All of the things we're going to tell you to do, exercise,

964
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 4: eating healthy, connecting with friends, maybe getting a job. You're

965
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,399
Speaker 4: going to be able to hear more clearly and then

966
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 4: make sound decisions. And they use some power moves against me.

967
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 4: They were like, it's not about this isn't just about you.

968
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 4: This is for your kids. As soon as you hear that,

969
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 4: you're like tiger Dad comes out and you're like, I

970
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 4: guess I'll do whatever it takes. I happened to be

971
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 4: going home to America for the first time to see

972
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,280
Speaker 4: my family, and he said, why don't you go home

973
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 4: and just be with your mom and dad and go

974
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,839
Speaker 4: on this medicine with them, and something about that, I

975
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 4: was like, that sounds great. I'll give my kids to

976
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 4: like the people I trust most in the world, and

977
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 4: I will go through the passive process of transitioning onto medicine,

978
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 4: which is it rewires your brain and it's not enjoyable

979
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 4: for like a couple of days, and then I just

980
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 4: went on it and didn't look back. Its work.

981
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 2: It definitely makes those things that although other suggestions, more

982
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 2: doable and like, yeah, the clarity for sure is something

983
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 2: that's like, because you do, you sort of go, I don't.

984
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 2: I'm not that guy. It needs to be medicated. And

985
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 2: for so long I hit it too, but it's like

986
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 2: and then it's like, well, what you should do is

987
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 2: you should exercise every fifteen minutes or meditate it every day,

988
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 2: And you're like, when is that kind of fit in

989
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 2: with the other shit I have to do, you know,

990
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 2: to change nappies and all that sort of shit.

991
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So what advice would you give to any

992
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: other parents out there, moms or dads who are in

993
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,479
Speaker 1: a position where they're thinking about escaping. What advice would

994
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:38,280
Speaker 1: you give to them.

995
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 4: I mean my advice in general, which happens to be

996
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 4: a nice van diagram overlap with people who are struggling,

997
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 4: is we have a story in our head of the

998
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 4: parents that we think we need to be or want

999
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 4: to be, and it's usually based off of our parenting

1000
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 4: role models or sometimes our friends and the world that

1001
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 4: our parents lived in it no longer exists, and so

1002
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 4: what we're doing is we're trying to live a traditional

1003
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 4: life in a modern world. And sometimes those things don't

1004
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 4: marry up, and we get caught in like being a

1005
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 4: certain parent, and I think it gets in the way

1006
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 4: of us actually building a life with our partner, or

1007
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 4: if we're doing it by ourselves, it just works for you.

1008
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,399
Speaker 4: I was so anti going to work because I wanted

1009
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 4: to be a stay at home parent. I thought that

1010
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 4: meant something. I'm going to do it like my mom did.

1011
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 4: I thought mother's group didn't work out, You're not welcome in.

1012
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 4: That's the end of that chapter. And the reality was

1013
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 4: when I got clear, probably two weeks after the medicine,

1014
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 4: I started to realize, like, Okay, you can't be a

1015
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 4: stay at home dad because you're living in a country

1016
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 4: with no friends or family, you need to make connections.

1017
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 4: So like the exercise of walking around your park with

1018
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 4: a prams not good enough. Find a group class. So

1019
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 4: I signed up in the yoga studio, got tennis lessons,

1020
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 4: and then I thought, you know what, this isn't working.

1021
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 4: You got to find a part time job. Just find

1022
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 4: people your age, like Connecticut andverising job part time. And

1023
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 4: then all of a sudden, I had connections, which meant

1024
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 4: I had someone to complain to, which meant I had

1025
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 4: someone that been to It.

1026
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 2: Makes a big difference. Someone you can wing jab.

1027
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 4: Just whinge, go to work and bitch or forget about

1028
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 4: kids for a minute. Because I was at that age,

1029
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 4: you know, I was twenty nine where I could slip

1030
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 4: into work at an advertising agency and not be a

1031
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:21,959
Speaker 4: parent for a little bit. People would forget, they would

1032
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 4: know I'm just a fun, gay kid. And then all

1033
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 4: of a sudden, it's like I was able to go

1034
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 4: off the medicine because I had all these resources of

1035
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 4: connection and work and meaning outside of parenting, which I

1036
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 4: think every parent who survived a couple of years knows.

1037
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 4: You got to have meaning outside of your parent. You've

1038
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 4: got to feel like you can give yourself self care

1039
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 4: as much as possible, and when that happened, I haven't

1040
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 4: like parenting has been great ever since then.

1041
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: I think there may be a lot of partners listening

1042
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 1: to this who their partner is dealing with a similar

1043
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: issue with their mental health. It might be helpful for

1044
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: them to know what Josh did for you in those moments.

1045
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 4: I mean, the rude reality is Josh was struggling on

1046
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 4: his own, and I think that's what's tricky even about

1047
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 4: both of your stories, is on top of you struggling,

1048
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 4: your partner is and so sometimes you're just trying to

1049
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 4: keep your head above the water. And when you go

1050
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 4: back and you talk to Josh about those moments, he

1051
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 4: was like, it was really tricky because I had my

1052
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 4: own issues and all I needed wanted to do is

1053
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 4: ensure that you felt supported. The best things that I

1054
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 4: think he did was took almost everything off my plate

1055
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 4: whenever he could. So when you're there, you're present, you're

1056
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 4: off your phone, you're asking what's on your partner's list,

1057
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 4: and you're saying, what can I take off of it.

1058
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 4: I give Josh a lot of credit because one of

1059
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 4: the ways we structure our parenting partnership it was built

1060
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 4: in those early days where he would say, what's one

1061
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 4: thing you don't like doing this week that I can

1062
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,439
Speaker 4: take from you? And you take one thing I don't

1063
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 4: like off my plate. Wow, And he did that even

1064
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 4: when I was depressed.

1065
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 1: What were the things that you didn't like?

1066
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 4: I do not like going to the playground. I think

1067
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 4: it is absolutely ridiculous that we take them there to

1068
00:49:58,160 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 4: play and then we have to play the whole time.

1069
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 4: I could not be more annoying. Do you want me

1070
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 4: to push you on a swing? The repetitive ass motion

1071
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 4: of that app I I actually like.

1072
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 2: The swing because then I can be on my phone.

1073
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 4: I don't like laundry. I find it really annoying, like

1074
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 4: if it were up to me, like they're going to

1075
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 4: ruin that shit in like thirty minutes, so just chuck

1076
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,359
Speaker 4: it out of there, like, don't fold it. Those are

1077
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 4: probably the two things that I was like, just taking

1078
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 4: off my plate.

1079
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 2: Please.

1080
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:25,919
Speaker 4: I want nothing to do with the laundry ever again.

1081
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 4: And then I guess the other thing is like your

1082
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 4: partner is going to say no, they're not gonna want

1083
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 4: the help. They're going to give you excuses for why

1084
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 4: things are good. It is completely acceptable to not ask,

1085
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 4: but to tell Josha that a lot. So we're going

1086
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:44,879
Speaker 4: on a date night on Tuesday. I know you don't

1087
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 4: want to leave them. This is important for us. You're

1088
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 4: going to a hotel for twenty four hours on your own.

1089
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 4: I booked it. It's done. I've got everything else sorted.

1090
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 4: I know you say that you're fine. I'd really love

1091
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 4: for you to go for a walk and listen to

1092
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 4: a podcast. My mom's coming. It's like, don't if you

1093
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 4: think there's a real issue, and they don't. They're not

1094
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 4: receptive to help. You're allowed to, as the love of

1095
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 4: their life to go. Guess what. You don't get a choice,

1096
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,359
Speaker 4: go to bed, take a shower. I'm making dinner. It's done,

1097
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 4: And I think the best way to do it, Unfortunately,

1098
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 4: when they're really in a hole is to spring it

1099
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:22,439
Speaker 4: on them, like my mom is coming in five minutes

1100
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 4: and you and I are going on a date.

1101
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:26,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Aaron, you and I are just gone for a walk.

1102
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 2: Makes a really really big impact for sure.

1103
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,879
Speaker 4: And if you're like, think of what your partner did

1104
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 4: in the times when things were good. So like he

1105
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 4: brought my sister and surprised me because he knows that

1106
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 4: her and I are really close, and so she just

1107
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 4: showed up at my front door. Or Okay, Sean needs

1108
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 4: to find a yoga studio. I'm going to find it

1109
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 4: for him. He wants he needs ten Okay, I'm just

1110
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 4: going to get him the tennis racket. Like it's your job.

1111
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 4: You've signed on hopefully till death to us, bar forever whatever.

1112
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 4: You actually do know the intricacies of what makes them happy.

1113
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:00,080
Speaker 4: They can't see it. It's not clear for them. So

1114
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,399
Speaker 4: if that, I just think, wouldn't you want the same thing?

1115
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 4: Of course we're going to say. Now we're in a

1116
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 4: whole like shit, so like you need a little bit help.

1117
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 2: How are your kids now six six yeees old? So

1118
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 2: you've got a little bit more experienced than Matt and I.

1119
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 2: What do you think looking back is the biggest shit

1120
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 2: show moment with your kids? Oh?

1121
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 1: Wow?

1122
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:19,720
Speaker 2: So many.

1123
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 4: I was gonna say I could write a book about it,

1124
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 4: but I did.

1125
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 2: Let's try another bit, so every year, I reckon you

1126
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 2: could sit down and write a book about the shit

1127
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 2: show moment.

1128
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:30,879
Speaker 4: I think every six years you get a next chapter, right,

1129
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 4: I mean, literally the biggest shit show. Josh and I

1130
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 4: travel a lot because my family's in America. He travels

1131
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 4: for work. And when before we had kids, we sat

1132
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 4: down and I was like, what, what's really important to

1133
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 4: you after kids? And he was like, I don't want

1134
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 4: to lose the wonderlust. Like he loves to travel. It's

1135
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:50,799
Speaker 4: fundamental to who he is. So how do you have

1136
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 4: kids and do that? And so we were traveling, like,

1137
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 4: my kids are six and they've been on more than

1138
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 4: one hundred flights easy, Like, yeah, probably one hundred and

1139
00:52:58,040 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 4: fifteen or hundred.

1140
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 2: My son would be like, I want to go to

1141
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 2: all those plays.

1142
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 4: My kids love it. It's just important to Josh. And so

1143
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 4: we go on a lot of trips. But I was

1144
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:10,759
Speaker 4: the one having to deal with the jet lag on

1145
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 4: the way back. Right, He just gets to go to

1146
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 4: work and like deal with it with adults and just

1147
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 4: be an asshole or whatever. But I have to like

1148
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 4: deal with kids. So I was like, I don't want

1149
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 4: to go to America anymore. I'm sorry. He was like,

1150
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 4: I promised your mom we'd get back twice a year.

1151
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 4: We got to figure out a solution and they were like, well,

1152
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 4: Josh starts talking to all his friends and people go,

1153
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 4: what about giving him anergen or like Benadrilla or whatever.

1154
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 4: It's fine, like people have been doing it forever and

1155
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 4: ever and ever. And I was like, okay, well you're

1156
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:41,840
Speaker 4: older than me. I trust you. I think a grandmother

1157
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 4: his best mate's mom, who's a doctor and a grandmother,

1158
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 4: was like, we did it with all of our kids

1159
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 4: their whole lives.

1160
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 2: They also gave them rum and literally literally.

1161
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 4: So we get on the plane, we test it before

1162
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 4: we go, because you did the test.

1163
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 2: We didn't.

1164
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,399
Speaker 4: No, we tested and they were both fine. We get

1165
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 4: on the plane, give it to my son. He just

1166
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 4: passes out with Josh and they just sleep for like,

1167
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 4: you know, the whole fucking flight. And I'm with my

1168
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 4: daughter and she starts playing and keeps playing and then

1169
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 4: starts to get agitated, Like I mean, I don't know

1170
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 4: what it's like to do coke.

1171
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 2: But I've heard a reverse effects.

1172
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 4: The reverse effects. She lost it and not just lost

1173
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,879
Speaker 4: it like agitated, but and screaming and crying, but like

1174
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,439
Speaker 4: the look of someone who's just taken acid and knows

1175
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 4: they can't get it out and there's no way to

1176
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 4: stop it, like her eyeballs got mad. She loving it.

1177
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 4: And we're on a plane and not only We're on

1178
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 4: a plane where La to Sydney? So we yeah, brilliant,

1179
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 4: a nice fourteen hour trip. She lost it, I mean,

1180
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 4: and I just think back to that moment. There's like

1181
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 4: the funny story which is like her, you know, throwing

1182
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 4: herself against the edge and the women, the flight attendants

1183
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 4: being like what are you okay? Like what's happening here?

1184
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 4: Where's your wife? Like can someone come and help us? Situation?

1185
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 4: So that's your show. And then there's the scary bit,

1186
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:04,360
Speaker 4: which is you're like, what have I just done to

1187
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:04,759
Speaker 4: my kids?

1188
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1189
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:06,879
Speaker 2: They ever gonna come back?

1190
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 4: I my daughter for sure. So that's probably one of

1191
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 4: the biggest shit shows.

1192
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, check medication.

1193
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 4: Did I give her the right one? It was my pill?

1194
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 1: Damn it.

1195
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 2: Did she sleep at all?

1196
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 4: She did?

1197
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 2: Oh?

1198
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 4: Actually, when she slamm through, she threw herself again door

1199
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 4: and then she just was like me tired and then just.

1200
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 2: Finger again.

1201
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 4: So don't drop your kids.

1202
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 1: How do you navigate the conversations with your kids? Because

1203
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 1: now they are a bit older, they kind of understand

1204
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 1: at what age do you say you have two dads?

1205
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 4: We decided really early on that the best and we

1206
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 4: stole this from kids who are adopted because I think

1207
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 4: that's probably the story we heard growing up, was the

1208
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 4: kid who's adopted who finds out when he's eighteen, or

1209
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 4: she finds out when she's fifteen, or always knew but

1210
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 4: never knew who the parents were. So many movies, so

1211
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,400
Speaker 4: many because it's the lifelong quest for answers. And so

1212
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 4: when you meet people who were adopted who are.

1213
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 2: Cool, I find out saying they drive me.

1214
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 4: You know, they say they just they knew early on.

1215
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 4: They were always told, so before they could talk, before

1216
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,760
Speaker 4: they always knew not just that they had two dads,

1217
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 4: but that that wasn't normal, but that wasn't common. We

1218
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 4: had the gay books, you know, like two dads or whatever,

1219
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:28,839
Speaker 4: and I think there's one called like Stella has two

1220
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 4: dads literally, so we had that one. But like all

1221
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 4: the other books, we were constantly reinforcing like everyone else,

1222
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 4: like you're going to be one of almost always. But

1223
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 4: then also we gave them the layers of like this

1224
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 4: is what a sarrogate is, this is her name, okay,

1225
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 4: this is your this is the biological mother. Here's what

1226
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 4: that means. So it felt very weird to be telling

1227
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 4: an eighteen month old that and a two year old.

1228
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:54,399
Speaker 4: But the reality is they start to ask the weird,

1229
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 4: uncomfortable questions, and by the time they're six, they understand

1230
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:02,360
Speaker 4: so fully exactly who they are, and they've worked through

1231
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 4: the discomfort in a comfortable place. What you don't want

1232
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 4: to do is have them work through that discomfort at school,

1233
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 4: an uncomfortable place with other kids that go, you have

1234
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:15,760
Speaker 4: two dads, that's weird.

1235
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's like that old conversation you have when

1236
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 2: you're a keep with my dad could paid up your

1237
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:22,919
Speaker 2: dad like my dad's could be.

1238
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 4: Literally both of them. But also, I guess the world

1239
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 4: has changed a lot, like our kids are growing up

1240
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 4: in a very different world where diversity even just through

1241
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 4: the phones, Like they have more access on television to

1242
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 4: people who look different, of different color. Like when we

1243
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 4: grew up, you wouldn't be outside of maybe one play

1244
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 4: school character every six months. You weren't seeing a bunch

1245
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 4: of people with different colored skin or kid in a wheelchair.

1246
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 4: And so when Stella told this girl at school, she said,

1247
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 4: why isn't your mom ever pick you up? And Stella said,

1248
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 4: I have two dads. The girl goes, I wish I

1249
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 4: had two dads, sobbing sobbing, and Stella's like, don't worry,

1250
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 4: I'm sorry. She just looked at me like people are

1251
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 4: jealous of me, and so I think, like, that's beautiful,

1252
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 4: it's great, you know.

1253
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 2: It's like, but like the sobbing.

1254
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 4: I mean when she was three, well.

1255
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 1: She was not sex It must be so nerve wracking.

1256
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: You know, everyone gets a little bit of bullying when

1257
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 1: they were younger, and me was. He believes me, but

1258
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: it's it's really scary. You're sending him out to the

1259
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: big wide world. You can't wrap him in cotton wool,

1260
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 1: and you're so fearful of them being an easy target.

1261
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 1: Is that anxiety tough to deal with?

1262
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 4: I'll be honest. I think the fact that I grew

1263
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 4: up as that kid who was bullied, the clear black

1264
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 4: sheep in the town, the obvious gay kid everyone you've

1265
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:52,440
Speaker 4: ever met, who was filled to the brim with empathy

1266
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:54,400
Speaker 4: and sympathy and grew up a little bit strange. It's

1267
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 4: just a reality. Like when you're the kid in a wheelchair,

1268
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 4: you never grow up to be a dick. It just

1269
00:58:57,920 --> 00:58:59,919
Speaker 4: doesn't happen. I mean, that's not true. There are bitch

1270
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 4: queens for the most part, but I think for me,

1271
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 4: what I came to terms with really early on through

1272
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 4: the coaching I got from my parents is is if

1273
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 4: it wasn't my gayness, it would be my freckles. If

1274
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 4: it wasn't because I had freckles, it's because I was

1275
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 4: a redhead. If it wasn't because I was a red head,

1276
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 4: it was because my dad got my parents got divorced.

1277
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 4: They will find something, But what I will not do

1278
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:27,920
Speaker 4: is pretend that them having two dads is genuinely worse

1279
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 4: than their friends' parents getting divorced. I just don't believe it.

1280
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 4: I really believe that like who I am is just

1281
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 4: as normal as anything else. And yes, I might not

1282
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 4: be as common as the rest of the population, but

1283
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 4: I'm a great dad. They have a good life, they

1284
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 4: have love all around them. That shit matters so much

1285
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 4: more than what a lot of straight people have to

1286
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 4: go through. And so I just I'm not going to

1287
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 4: carry the trauma from my childhood and put it onto

1288
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 4: these kids who didn't ask for that. Yeah, and also,

1289
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:57,240
Speaker 4: we live in Sydney, in a really cool, pretty progressive

1290
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 4: city where there were there's a lot of examples of

1291
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 4: difference all around them, and so instead of my parents

1292
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 4: trying to coach me the obvious and only one. Don't worry.

1293
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 4: There are other people like you somewhere. I hope Ellen.

1294
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,920
Speaker 4: Ellen just came out public. She lost her show. I

1295
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 4: don't have to do that. I don't have to do that.

1296
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:20,919
Speaker 4: There are lots of other examples, and if I needed them,

1297
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 4: you know, they're literally gay parent meetups once a month

1298
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 4: and the Inner West where you can go so your

1299
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 4: children can have access and so if things got bad,

1300
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 4: I would I would feel that I could connect them

1301
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 4: with other people.

1302
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 2: There's way more avenues now for you and your kids

1303
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 2: to connect.

1304
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:37,040
Speaker 1: Before we go, I want to ask you one last question.

1305
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 2: Here's arms crossed. What something serious?

1306
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 1: When you are an old man that's a gray hairs

1307
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 1: and your children, Stella and Cooper have grown up, what's

1308
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 1: the one thing you want them to remember about your home,

1309
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 1: the household that they grew up in.

1310
01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 4: Oh wow, oh that's good. The one thing I did

1311
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 4: not have as a child, And no fault to my parents.

1312
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 4: It's just because of the way that I was made

1313
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 4: was I didn't feel that I could talk about the

1314
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 4: problems that I was having. The greatest issue that I

1315
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 4: was having, the one that easily could have been the

1316
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 4: end of me. I couldn't talk to them about it,

1317
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 4: and again, it's not their fault. They're loving and accepting.

1318
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 4: And I constantly think about how terrible about ten years

1319
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 4: of my life was to struggle internally alone every night

1320
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 4: by yourself. And then when I became an adult, to

1321
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 4: tell my parents those things and to hear them say

1322
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 4: we had no idea. Is oh that it hurts to

1323
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 4: know that they had no idea. If you're listening to this,

1324
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 4: you do not have access to the script inside your

1325
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 4: child's head. You might feel that you know them in

1326
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 4: their totality, and we do. We understand our kids and

1327
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 4: the nuances and when they're in a good mood or

1328
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 4: a bad mood. But the reality is there are things

1329
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:00,439
Speaker 4: that are going on in our kids head we won't

1330
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 4: have access to ever. And the only way you can

1331
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 4: fix that is creating a home where they can tell

1332
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 4: you anything and you nail home that message not when

1333
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 4: things are bad, but when things are good. Good. Yeah,

1334
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 4: So when things are bad, people aren't capable of stretching

1335
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 4: and reaching on to the tools and techniques that will

1336
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:20,520
Speaker 4: make them feel better. But when they're good, when they're

1337
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 4: in a great place. That's when you lay the foundation,

1338
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:25,120
Speaker 4: like you understand that you can always come to me,

1339
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 4: that there is not a single thing that you could

1340
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 4: say that's going to change my love for you. That

1341
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 4: if anything bad ever happened, like, I won't tell a

1342
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 4: single So those things that we all know we should say,

1343
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 4: I'm an example of that necessarily not working, and the

1344
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 4: damage that it did is something that I'll never be

1345
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 4: able to fully unpick. And I love my parents and

1346
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 4: they're incredibly wonderful and supportive. But I know for a

1347
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 4: fact that my kids are aware of that, and I

1348
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 4: know that if things are bad and it started to happen,

1349
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 4: you know, when they hit KNDy and you're one and

1350
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:58,640
Speaker 4: now the friendship drama is starting the stress of teacher

1351
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 4: dynamics and we're starting to get those that are dropped

1352
01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 4: in your lap each day, and how you respond when

1353
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 4: your kid comes with that. You don't brush them off

1354
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 4: or oh you'll be fine, made that just happens sometimes,

1355
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 4: Oh that's just kids shit. No, that when they come

1356
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 4: to you with those problems, you are writing the script

1357
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 4: for the rest of their fucking life, not just for

1358
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 4: you and them, but the way that they talk to

1359
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 4: partners and friends, and so I hope when they look

1360
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 4: back at that they think those four walls, when the

1361
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 4: outside world was scary, the inside was a real safe place.

1362
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 1: Wow, there is no doubt in my mind that that's

1363
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 1: exactly how they're going to feel. You doing it, I

1364
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 1: can tell you showing that was a beautiful fucking chat.

1365
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 2: Thanks, Thanks very much, Sean, Thank you for allowing us

1366
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 2: to enter your hass and have this conversation.

1367
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:44,840
Speaker 4: I was going to say thanks for having me, but

1368
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 4: you're welcome.

1369
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:58,880
Speaker 1: Than just to remind that if you have any guest suggestions,

1370
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,360
Speaker 1: we would love to hear, because the plan is from

1371
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:04,720
Speaker 1: now on we'll be doing guest episodes every fortnight from

1372
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 1: this Monday. So send us suggestions to two Doting Dads

1373
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 1: on Instagram or hello.

1374
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 2: At twodding dads dot com.

1375
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 1: And if you enjoyed this episode, we would absolutely love

1376
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 1: it if you would subscribe, review, leave a few comments why.

1377
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 2: Not, and just a reminder of you or anyone is struggling,

1378
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,160
Speaker 2: be sure to reach out to Lifeline thirteen eleven fourteen

1379
01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 2: or be on Blue one three hundred double two four

1380
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 2: six three six, See you bye.

1381
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 1: Two Doting Dads Podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country

1382
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 1: throughout Australia and the connections to land, see and community.

1383
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 2: We pay our respects to their elders past and present

1384
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:50,680
Speaker 2: and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestraight Island,

1385
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:54,440
Speaker 2: the people's today. This episode was recorded on Gadagle Land