1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,359 Speaker 1: When you're a parent, there are so many big decisions 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: to make, but also a lot of small decisions that 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: may or may not have a big impact on your 4 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: child's life. So when you ask a doctor if it's 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: okay to maintain your four cups a day coffee addiction 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: during pregnancy and their response is two cups should be okay, 7 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: you might not feel like that's enough information to make 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 1: one of many decisions coming your way. And that is 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: exactly how Brown University economics professor Emily Osta felt during 10 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: her pregnancy. So she did what any good economist would do, 11 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: and she went to the numbers. Three books later, and 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: she has not only broken down all the data that 13 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: parents need to make decisions, but she's worked out how 14 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: we can all be making better decisions. So what are 15 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: the economics frameworks that Emily uses to improve her own 16 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: life and the decisions that she makes. Why is optimizing 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: on the margins so important for hour by our productivity? 18 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: And why does Emily use email to make some of 19 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:19,839 Speaker 1: her biggest decisions with her husband. My name is doctor 20 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: Amathe Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of 21 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work 22 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: a show about how to help you do your best work. 23 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: So I wanted to start my chat with Emily by 24 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: understanding how can economics help us make better decisions in 25 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: our lives. 26 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 2: So I think the big picture in economic decision making 27 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: is the idea of weighing costs and benefits. 28 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 3: And that any choice that you make you should. 29 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 2: Make thoughtfully by thinking about what with the benefits of 30 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 2: this choice being with the and what would the cast be. 31 00:01:57,960 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: But I think it's also the case that under a 32 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 2: lineying that there are a lot of smaller principles that 33 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 2: can help us do that better. So one that I 34 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 2: like a lot as an example, is opportunity costs is 35 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 2: the idea that. 36 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 3: Effectively my time is valuable. 37 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 2: And that I should when I make choices about whether 38 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 2: I should hire somebody to help me clean my house, 39 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 2: I should be thinking about the opportunity costs of that time. 40 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 2: I should be thinking about what else I could be 41 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 2: doing with that time, and explicitly acknowledging that in some 42 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 2: of the choices that I make. 43 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 1: Interesting So, how do you make decisions at work? 44 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: A lot of the decisions that I make at work 45 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: have to do with how I'm going to prioritize different 46 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 2: pieces of my professional life. So I do a fair 47 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: amount of writing. I'm also an academic, so I write 48 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: some academic papers, and then I do a fair amount 49 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 2: of administrative work. And I try to make sort of 50 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 2: both big picture and then smaller picture decisions, So sort 51 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 2: of big picture decisions about kind of how do I 52 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: want the balance of those things to work over the 53 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: course of a year, So do I want to be 54 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 2: investing a lot of administration and less in the other things, 55 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 2: recognizing that there's a trade off. I can't do one 56 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 2: hundred percent of everything. And then I try to also 57 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 2: make decisions about kind of smaller pieces of time, So 58 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: how much time do I want to spend in this 59 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 2: week on these different things. So for me, a lot 60 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 2: of the work decisions are really around prioritizing certain parts 61 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 2: of my professional life and then within them having the 62 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 2: same kinds of discussions about individual projects. But the big 63 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: picture is probably the most important. 64 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: Right, And so like, what are some of the frameworks 65 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: or tools from economics that you're consciously using or maybe 66 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: unconsciously using now when I'm making those big pigure decisions. 67 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think it's almost all unconscious at this point. 68 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 2: My parents were also economists, and so my kind of whole. 69 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: My husband is an economy so it's all that sort 70 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 2: of steeped in there. But I think a lot of 71 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 2: this is this idea of trade offs, of kind of 72 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 2: if you're doing this thing, you can't be doing this 73 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 2: other thing, and so just recognizing the kind of weight 74 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 2: of value across those things. I think the other tool 75 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: that I spend a lot of time thinking to sort 76 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 2: of in that factors a lot in these decisions is 77 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 2: the idea of what we call optimizing on the margin, 78 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 2: So thinking about choosing. 79 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 3: Activities not based on how important they. 80 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 2: Are overall on average, but thinking about what is the 81 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: best use of this next hour. So there may be 82 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: a situation in which you know there's one broad area 83 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 2: of work or one broad project that's in aggregate much 84 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 2: more important. 85 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 3: Than another one. 86 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 2: But when I think about how much progress would be 87 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 2: made in the next hour, or what would be the 88 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: best use of this next hour, it is best used 89 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 2: on the smaller project or the sort of aggregate less 90 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 2: valuable project, because the marginal. 91 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 3: Value of that hour is higher. 92 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 2: And so I think that's that actually ends up influencing 93 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: a lot of how I organize my time in a 94 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 2: smaller way. 95 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 4: Which is to say, I need to make every hour 96 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 4: as productive as possible, and that means allocating them in 97 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 4: this marginal way where it's what is the best use 98 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 4: of that particular hour, given where I am on everything else, 99 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 4: rather than saying all the time should be spent on 100 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 4: this big project because it is on average most important. 101 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 3: Well, no, maybe the marginal hour is not as important. 102 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: Okay, interesting, I'm thinking of how would I apply that 103 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: to my own life. At the moment, I've got my 104 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: big project is I'm writing a book, and I'm on deadline. 105 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: October is when I have to submit the first draft, 106 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: and so that, like, I feel like that occupies every 107 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: spare hour that I've got at the moment. But then 108 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: I've got other tasks that I do, like writing articles, 109 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: or doing knote speeches, or doing business development activities or 110 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: sort of bits and pieces of administration. So what advice 111 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: would you give me in terms of applying that principle. 112 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that I would encourage you to 113 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: think about the kind of diminishing marginal value of time 114 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 2: on your books. So, so I'm going to assume that 115 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 2: you write books like I do, which means if you 116 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 2: sat down at the beginning of an eight hour day 117 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 2: to write that, the kind of first couple of hours, 118 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 2: you've had your coffee, you're like, really, you're focused in, 119 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 2: you're dialed in, You've thought in the. 120 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 3: Shower about what you're going to say. You're like, really, 121 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 3: you're doing it. 122 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: And by our four things that are sort of decay, and 123 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 2: by our a you're basically fried, like you can't or 124 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 2: maybe by our four you're fried. That would be a 125 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 2: begin me that's right, yeah, yeah, But there's a temptation 126 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 2: to be like, okay, just because it is so important, 127 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 2: I just got to push through, push through, push through, 128 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 2: because this. 129 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 3: Is this is the big project. 130 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 2: But actually that fifth hour, like you're that fifth hour 131 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: is not that productive, Like you're not getting that much done. 132 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 2: And you might at that point be able to get 133 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 2: more sort of total work life points, whatever it is, 134 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 2: by spending some of that time on article writing or 135 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 2: something different, or administrative tasks or catching up on email 136 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 2: or whatever it is, because. 137 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 3: You're going to need to do that time sometime. 138 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 2: That's going to have to happen, and if you do 139 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 2: it in that hour, that would otherwise be the sort 140 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 2: of less least productive of the book hours. If you 141 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 2: instead slot in something else, it may be that that's 142 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: actually sort of an aggregate time saver or productivity saver, 143 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 2: because you've optimally used the hours rather than just like 144 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 2: digging your head into the thing that you know is 145 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 2: the sort of average most important because of the sort 146 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: of diminishing value of time on any given project. 147 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: In your latest book, The Family Firm, you lay out 148 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: a framework for decision making called the floor ifs, and 149 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: you apply it to parenting decisions, which I do want 150 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: to talk about, but I want to start by asking 151 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: with that framework, what are the other sorts of decisions 152 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: that we can be applying that to. 153 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 2: I tend to find I think this is applicable and 154 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 2: a wide variety of settings. So you know, the kind 155 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: of four f framework has the idea that you're going 156 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 2: to start by framing a question. Then you're going to 157 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: collect some data, some evidence information I call that fact finding, 158 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 2: that you will then make a final decision and then 159 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 2: there will be some sort of period of follow up. 160 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: So let's get into this framework. Can you talk us 161 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: through the four ifs? 162 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So that you want to imagine that you have 163 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 2: a kind of big decision to make in some area 164 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 2: of your life. And the first f is called frame 165 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: the question. It may seem sort of fasciled to say 166 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 2: you have to ask the question, but actually I think 167 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: people are not always great at this. So we can 168 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,719 Speaker 2: take the should I get a new job question as 169 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: an example. People often as well, you know, should should 170 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 2: I change jobs or not? Okay, so you know the 171 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 2: job that you have now, But by saying should I 172 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 2: change jobs or or not, you don't know what the 173 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 2: other choice is. So that in a lot of these 174 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 2: settings it is really beneficial to actually write a question 175 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 2: or think of a question in a way that's a 176 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 2: trade off between two distinct things, not a trade off 177 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 2: between do this or do something else, where something else 178 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 2: is a sort of imaginary thing in the in the ether, 179 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,839 Speaker 2: And so that's really the first step is to say, okay, well, 180 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 2: let me try to be as concrete as possible about 181 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 2: what the sort of two choices or three choices are. 182 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 2: Then there is a fact finding portion where you say, 183 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 2: all right, in order to make this decision, I need 184 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 2: to know some information. And the book is really about 185 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 2: it's about a book about parenting, and so there's a 186 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 2: fair amount of data in around a lot of questions 187 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 2: that come up in parenting, and so that's a piece 188 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 2: of this fact finding there. But in all, in any choice, 189 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 2: there are going to be going to be facts that 190 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 2: are not just data. There are going to be things 191 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 2: about schedules, or things about finances, or things about other 192 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 2: trade offs that you face the like, things that you 193 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 2: need to know about exactly what these two different choices 194 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 2: or three different choices are. 195 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 3: Going to look like. And then there's the third step. 196 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 2: Which is a final decision step, which is to say, Okay, 197 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 2: once you have all that information, you actually should just 198 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 2: plan a time to sit down and make the decision. 199 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 3: Because I think we often let. 200 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 2: Big choices sort of parkolate and parcolate, and we think 201 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 2: about them a little here and a little there, and 202 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: kind of in the shower, and we talk to our 203 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: partner about them a little bit, we talk again. You know, 204 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 2: we only have three minutes. We're falling asleep, and we 205 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 2: never get to the end because we haven't said, Okay, 206 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 2: this is the end of this decision. 207 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 3: You know, I am am I going to switch jobs 208 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 3: or not. 209 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 2: Here's the time at which I'm going to decide that 210 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: I'm going to have a meeting or whatever it is 211 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 2: and a final decision, and then we will have made 212 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: the decision. 213 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 3: And we can kind of move forward. But then the 214 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 3: last F is follow up. 215 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 2: Is just noting that, you know, we often for big decisions, 216 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 2: we tend to think about them as like, Okay, I'm 217 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 2: going to make this decision and then that's it. This 218 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 2: decision will be forever. And of course, for some decisions 219 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 2: that's true, but for many of the decisions that we make, 220 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 2: it may not be forever. You may have the opportunity 221 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 2: to re up that decision at some other time, and 222 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 2: we don't always take advantage of that. So I sort 223 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 2: of urge people to say, hey, like you should articulate, 224 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 2: you should plan a time they're going to follow up 225 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 2: on the decision sometime later to make sure that X 226 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 2: post it turned out to be the right decision and 227 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 2: there isn't something that you want to change. 228 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 1: I love that it makes decision making complex decision making 229 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,479 Speaker 1: sound like it could be much simpler. Now, could you 230 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: maybe help me apply that framework to one decision that's 231 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: abound truitment. We know we're need a new junior consultant, 232 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: but there's one person that we like, but they're not 233 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 1: available for six months, and there's also no guarantee that 234 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: I mean, their life could have completely changed in six 235 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: months and they might have some other job offer at 236 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: the end of the year, so it's not like they're guaranteed, 237 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 1: but we know that they're really good. Then the other 238 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: option is that we just go, Okay, let's not wait 239 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: six months for someone that we know is good, and 240 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: instead let's invest some time, which would be a lot 241 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: of time going to market and seeing what's out there, 242 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: which is very, very time consuming, but it would hopefully 243 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: get us someone sooner. So that's the decision. Do we 244 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: go to market now or do we wait six months 245 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: and cross our fingers that this good person that we 246 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 1: like and they like us is still available. 247 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 3: Okay, so let's start with so the question. 248 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 2: You've framed the question as do we go to market 249 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 2: now or do we wait for this for this guy? 250 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: And so I think one's those are concrete choices. 251 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 3: That's good. 252 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 2: I think the one thing that I would add to 253 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: your first question asking is to note that you may 254 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: have to go to market in both of these situations. 255 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 2: So option one is go to market now. Option two 256 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 2: is wait, with some probability to hire this person that 257 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 2: you like, and with some probability have to do this 258 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 2: market thing in December? 259 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 3: Is that right? 260 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: Yes? Exactly? 261 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 3: Okay, all right, so you got these new choice Yeah. 262 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: And ideally we donate someone now that there is this 263 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: good person that's six months away, which is why it's 264 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: so tricky. 265 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 3: Okay. 266 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 2: So it seems to me like the most important information 267 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 2: you need is, like, is some version of how you 268 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: know how expensive? You know how costly it is to 269 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 2: go to the market, you know how much time that's 270 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 2: going to take. Presumably, Yes, it seems like the key 271 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 2: piece of information is how likely this person is to 272 00:13:54,600 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 2: be interested and how unusual they are? Hmmm yes, yeah, 273 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 2: So I don't know if there's a way, like I 274 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 2: think what I would say is in whatever is this 275 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 2: sort of second phase of this, I think that those are. 276 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 3: Two things that you would ideally learn. 277 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 2: It sounds like you could probably learn something about how 278 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 2: likely they are. I mean they're going to overstate their likelihood, yes, 279 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 2: but you know you can bias it down. Yeah. And 280 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 2: then and then this question of like, I like, do 281 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 2: you know enough to know if this person is is 282 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 2: really unusual or maybe is there a way to dip 283 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 2: in just a little to see, you know, is there 284 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 2: somebody Uh is this likely? Maybe this person isn't the 285 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 2: unicorn that you think that they're Hmm. 286 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, there are. They're really good questions to ask, and 287 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: I think that's so true. Like if we with the 288 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: first question in terms of how interested is this person, 289 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: they're definitely going to overstate that they're definitely interested. But 290 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: also that earlier on in the career, so they could, 291 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: you know, quite foreseeably be lord to go to another firm. 292 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: So that's a tricky one. In terms of how unique 293 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: they are, they're pretty unique. But then I'd say everyone 294 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: we employed Inventium is unique, and that's why recruitment is 295 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: such a hard process because we're typically you know, getting 296 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: from like one hundred or two hundred applications down to 297 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: one person, and sometimes we don't even find the one 298 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: person that we're looking for. So yeah, that's how it 299 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: answered those questions at the moment with sort of the 300 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: knowledge that I've got. 301 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think then the thing is like just 302 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 2: to dig into whether there's a fast way. 303 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 3: To learn to learn more than what you know. 304 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 2: So if my husband were here, because he likes to 305 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 2: put people on the spot. He would say, why don't 306 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 2: you tell this person, they like, ask this person to 307 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 2: sign something, just because when people sign that, and it 308 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 2: probably isn't going to be something binding because of course 309 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 2: you know, there's no like you could always get out 310 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 2: of things, but that people don't like to do that 311 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 2: unless they're serious. 312 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 3: They feel like it's uh. 313 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 2: It's and if you come and you say, hey, can 314 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 2: you sign this early commitment and they say no, I 315 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: think that's a pretty bad sign. It is, yes, but 316 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 2: I think that the sort of Okay, so there's like 317 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 2: some things you need to. 318 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 3: I think that you could go learn. 319 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: And I guess the sort of last piece of this 320 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 2: is to say, the longer you wait on doing this, 321 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 2: in some sense, the worse it is, or the like 322 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 2: you could just wait and wait and wait and now 323 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 2: make this decision and then find out that the person 324 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 2: doesn't want it, and then you've sort of spent your 325 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 2: six your six months kind of on not on purpose. 326 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 2: So I would say, try to find these things out 327 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: now and say, okay, in two weeks we're going to. 328 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 3: Either pull the trigger on this thing or decide to wait. 329 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: Okay, That is very helpful Emily will be back soon 330 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: talking about why she makes her most important decisions with 331 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: her husband using it email. But before we head to that, 332 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 1: I wanted to say, if you are not connected with 333 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: me on the social media channels, then you might want 334 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: to do that because I share a lot of content 335 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: during the week that you might find helpful. So find 336 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: me on LinkedIn, just search for Amantha Imba and you 337 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: can find me on Twitter at Amantha or on Instagram 338 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: at Amantha I and just shoot me a note telling 339 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: me that you found me via how I work, because 340 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear from you. When you were starting 341 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: a family, I know something you did is you turned 342 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: away from a lot of the parenting books that so 343 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: many expecting parents read, and for you it was all 344 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: about the data. Can you tell me about why you 345 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: did turn away from a lot of the very popular 346 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: parenting books and go towards the data. 347 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 2: When I came into the parenting space when I was 348 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 2: first pregnant with my daughter, I found there was sort 349 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 2: of like two classes of books. There were the books 350 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: that were just like, here is what happens during pregnancy, 351 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 2: which we were useful but tended to make the same 352 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 2: kinds of blanket pronouncements that my obi, my doctor was 353 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 2: making around the rule, the pregnancy rules as we as 354 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: we call them. And then there were other books which 355 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 2: sometimes got sort of would give different recommendations but never 356 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 2: said why so you'd get you know, there was a 357 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 2: book called that I remember called The Panic Free Pregnancy, 358 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 2: which actually gave a lot of in some ways a 359 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 2: lot of the same advice that I ended up writing 360 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 2: in or that I ended up effectively supporting and expecting better, 361 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 2: but there was no like why behind it. 362 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 3: It was just like, well, I'm an expert. 363 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 2: It's fine to have a cup of coffee, uh, and 364 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 2: and that was not. 365 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 3: Sufficient for me. 366 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: And something else I was curious about because doctors have 367 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: access to data, but for you, as an economist, you 368 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: can often get to like a different insight with the data. 369 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: Can you tell me how how I guess an economist 370 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: can look data and how you can end up with 371 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: something different from what the medical profession is saying. 372 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 2: So I think, you know, first of all, it's sort 373 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 2: of worth noting that actually, in a lot of cases 374 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 2: I wasn't saying necessarily something different, and some of this 375 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 2: was just interpreting for people why they were being told 376 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 2: what they were being told. But I think, you know, 377 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 2: there are places where I differed, obviously, and I think 378 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 2: some of that is, you know, my training is really 379 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 2: in how we learn causality from data, how we figure out, 380 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 2: you know, is the relationship between this variable and this 381 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 2: other variable is causal? Is like, is there really a 382 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 2: relationship there or is it just what we call it correlation? 383 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 2: Is it just that they're sort of moving together, but 384 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 2: not that they're not that they're moving together because. 385 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 3: One is causing the other one. 386 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 2: So I spent all of my professional life doing that, 387 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 2: and so when I go and read some of these papers, 388 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 2: in some cases I have a pretty different sense of 389 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 2: what are the good papers and what are the less 390 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 2: good papers, because I I kind of dug into what 391 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 2: is the sort of evidence underlying this? 392 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 3: And doctors have a lot. 393 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: Of kinds of training, but actually they don't have a 394 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 2: lot of training and statistics. And so the training that 395 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 2: I had as an economist actually in many ways much 396 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 2: better suited for those kinds of analyzes than the training 397 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 2: that you would get in medical school. 398 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: Now, i'd love to hear about some of the decisions 399 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: that you've made as a parent for your kids and 400 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: I'd love it if he could talk me through maybe 401 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: one of the top of decisions to make and your 402 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: process to making that decision. 403 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 2: One kind of big decision that we made a few 404 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: years ago surrounded my what to do about school for 405 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 2: my for my youngest. So so he was in like 406 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 2: a preschool daycare environment that he that he liked a lot, 407 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 2: that we liked a lot, but there was an opportunity 408 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 2: to move him sort of because he had gotten to 409 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 2: be the right age into. 410 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 3: The school with our that our daughter was in. 411 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 2: And it wasn't a super easy choice because you know, 412 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 2: he was very happy. So we sort of approach that 413 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 2: and kind of more or less this way, so asking 414 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: the question, which in that case amounted to should we 415 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 2: leave him in this school for another two years and 416 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 2: then move him or should we move him now? And 417 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 2: that like already was actually I think until we had 418 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 2: talked about it was not. We hadn't fully recognized the 419 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 2: importance of that particular question. But of course we eventually 420 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 2: were going to have to move him, and so it 421 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 2: made the decision in many ways much easier because of course, 422 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 2: eventually we're going to have to do it, and so 423 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 2: it was not do we never move him. It was 424 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 2: do we move him now or do we move him 425 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 2: move him later? 426 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 3: You know, And then we spent a bunch of time. 427 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 2: Visiting the two options, trying to figure out which teachers 428 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 2: would be in different places, and were there any changes 429 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 2: that had happened to the curriculum since their daughter had 430 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 2: been in there, and just really trying to understand what 431 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 2: would these two environments look like for him. And then 432 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 2: you know, that was the keys in which the decision 433 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 2: timing was like eventually you have to apply for you 434 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 2: have to apply for the for the school or an 435 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,360 Speaker 2: apply for the school, and so we we've eventually had 436 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 2: a time that we had to make a final decision. 437 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 2: And then you know, there there's an obvious follow up 438 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 2: which we have every year, which is, you know, at 439 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,479 Speaker 2: some point my kids school asked for re enrollments, and 440 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 2: you know, we do always sit down and say, okay, 441 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 2: like let's just check. We really like the school, but 442 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 2: let's just like check and make sure that this is 443 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 2: you know, this is still working for us, still working 444 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 2: for our kids, that we don't necessarily have to default 445 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 2: into this just because it's the thing that we've been 446 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 2: doing before. 447 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: A decision that I know that I'm going to have 448 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: to make for my daughter is where to send her 449 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,479 Speaker 1: to high school? And she's at a primary school at 450 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: the moment. And I will add that, you know, I 451 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: do have an ex husband that we will have to 452 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 1: make the decision together. But she's in grade two at 453 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: the moment in primary school, and the decision is four 454 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: years away. But I feel like those four years are 455 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: going to go very quickly. So what advice would you 456 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: give me in terms of making that decision of where 457 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: to send my daughter for her high school years? 458 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 3: Other than this sort of like think about the options. 459 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 2: Get you know, I think the biggest piece of advice 460 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 2: there is, I think thinking carefully in advance about how 461 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: involved you want her to be in the decision. So 462 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 2: I think one of the thing that's hard about this 463 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 2: stage of parenting is figuring out which pieces of these 464 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 2: choices do we want to give our kids kind of 465 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 2: autonomy or participation rights into. 466 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 3: Right. So maybe that. 467 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 2: It may not be that you want to give her 468 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 2: all of the options right. 469 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 3: You may not want to say, okay, like pick the 470 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 3: high school. 471 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 2: I don't exactly know how your schooling system works, but 472 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 2: it may not be that you want to say, pick 473 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 2: from all of the possible high schools, because actually you 474 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 2: may not think that they're all acceptable, or they may 475 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: all be affordable, or they may not all work for 476 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 2: some other for some other reason. But at the same time, 477 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 2: you know, with a with an older kid, you probably 478 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: don't want to just say, Okay, here's what you're doing, 479 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 2: and you know, don't ask any any questions. And so 480 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 2: part of the balance as kids age here is to 481 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 2: think about how to engage them in these decisions in 482 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 2: ways that are that are productive but also you're feasible. 483 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: Now I've had that when you're talking about like different 484 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 1: matters relating to your kids, you will do quite a 485 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: bit of amail discussion with your husband, Is that right? 486 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 3: That is right? 487 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, we do a lot of our interaction over email. 488 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 3: I love a good email. 489 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 1: Can you tell me why you decide to do that 490 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: via email then some other communication channel like face to 491 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: face at the dinner table. 492 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, the kids are at the dinner table. 493 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 2: See you forget about that, but I yeah, so I 494 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 2: think that that that we. 495 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 3: Try pretty hard to do. 496 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 2: Yes, to do much of this interaction over email, And 497 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 2: I think part of you know, or over some like 498 00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 2: to get even more extreme, like in an assana task 499 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 2: to grow over something like that. And I think that 500 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 2: the reason is that that you can be much more 501 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 2: direct and concrete and understanding is just much clearer when 502 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 2: it is written down and it sets expectations in a 503 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 2: way that everybody can like can see what is written, 504 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 2: can see what we agreed on, can sort of like 505 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 2: see all of the information together. It's also an efficient 506 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 2: way to be able to go back and back and 507 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 2: forth between sort of learning something and asking questions and 508 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 2: learning more. 509 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 3: So give you an example, there was like. 510 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 2: A period of time when one of my kids had 511 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 2: a tick on them, like it's like a bug and 512 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 2: tick on them, and there's like a question about there's 513 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 2: a concern about buying disease where I live, which is 514 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 2: a thing that you can get if you have a 515 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 2: tick bite. And we had to have a discussion about 516 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 2: whether we wanted to like pre treat him with antibiotics 517 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 2: for this. And that is a place where like having 518 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 2: the interaction about the about that question over email is 519 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 2: very productive because I can say here are the facts. 520 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 2: He can say, well, here's the question that I still have, 521 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 2: and rather than him saying. 522 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 3: Over the breakfast table. 523 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 2: Here's the question I still have and me being like, Okay, 524 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 2: let me try to remember, like look at that later 525 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 2: and then get back to you about it. I can 526 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 2: just like see the email, put it aside when I 527 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 2: have time, come back. 528 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 3: To it, send it back to him. 529 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 2: And it's sort of like so sometimes I say, like, 530 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 2: your computer doesn't get tired of remembering things even though 531 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 2: you do, and so you've got to give your computer 532 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 2: a little mental load. 533 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 1: Is there anything else that you do, like because of 534 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: your background that helps you like in work all life 535 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: that other people would go, oh, that's really quirky. 536 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 2: So we have a lot of these same kinds of 537 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 2: interactions with our kids where we will sort of interact 538 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 2: over email with them. And the other day so I 539 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 2: noticed that they were emailing each other, and you know, 540 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 2: there's like six and ten. It's like the son opened 541 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 2: up his computer and he was like emailing with he 542 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 2: like emailed like I hope you have a good evening. 543 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't even. 544 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,719 Speaker 2: Know where they come up with this, where they come 545 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 2: up with this stuff, but I think we do, you know, 546 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 2: sort of lean into the idea that lant kind of 547 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 2: everybody in the in the household can engage in this 548 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 2: kind of slightly structured decision making decision making piece. I 549 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 2: guess the other thing I do that people that is 550 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 2: probably a much more typical thing is that I get 551 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: up really early in the morning before anybody else is up. 552 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 2: That's more of a productivity hack than something that's quirky. So, 553 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 2: how ellie, are we talking like five or a little 554 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 2: bit before five? And how do you use that time 555 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 2: before the rest of your family's awake. So I drink 556 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 2: coffee and I do email, and then I usually exercise, 557 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 2: So it's sort of but it's I like that time. 558 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 3: I've always really liked that time because. 559 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 2: It's good, like sort of deep focused time if I 560 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 2: have some deep focused thing that I need to do. 561 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 2: But it's also it feels like it's mine in a 562 00:27:58,119 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 2: way that you know, most of the rest of the 563 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 2: day and it doesn't. 564 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 3: So most of the rest of my day sort of 565 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 3: feels like it's it's meetings or it's the kids or 566 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 3: and I. 567 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 2: Love those things, but it's it's not like my time 568 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 2: to do whatever I want with. It's not like free 569 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 2: free moments, and that early morning time kind of is free. 570 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: I've heard that you describe yourself as an aggressive multitask 571 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: AUP is like, what are you doing in terms of 572 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,239 Speaker 1: aggressively multitasking, like where you feel like it's serving you. 573 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 2: So I think the biggest thing is like how I 574 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: address email, which is that like I try not to 575 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 2: let it build up, and so I try if I have, 576 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 2: like if a meeting ends five minutes early, I try 577 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 2: to like triage what I've got in my email so 578 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 2: I don't end up at the end of the day 579 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: with like a billion things left over because it just. 580 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 3: Like it drives me. It drives me crazy. 581 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: Emily, My final question for you is for people that 582 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: want to read and consume more of what you're doing, 583 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: what is the best way for people to do that. 584 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 2: So I have a newsletter on substack, which is probably 585 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 2: the easiest way to read the stuff that I'm doing. 586 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 2: It's called parent Data, but it's just emii astro Do 587 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 2: at substack dot com. And the new book I think 588 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 2: will be out in I think I think is out 589 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 2: in Australia at the same time as it is in 590 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 2: the US, sin certainly in the UK, which is August third. 591 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 2: And those are the best ways to find me fantastic 592 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 2: and I highly recommend the family Firm those that are parents. 593 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 2: I just really helped improve and change the way I 594 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 2: look at parenting decisions, which can be. 595 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: Very very challenging. So Emily, it's been awesome chatting to you. 596 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: I'd so appreciate your time and your advice, and I'm 597 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: now going to go speak to my CEO about what 598 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: to do about this recruitment decision as well. 599 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 3: Good luck with that, and thank you so much for 600 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 3: having me on. 601 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: That is it for today's show. Now, if you have 602 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: not hit subscribe or follow where you're listening to this 603 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: podcast from, you might want to do that because next 604 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: week I have comedian Michelle Laurie on the show talking 605 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: about all sorts of things, including why you need to 606 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: let other people go first. So hit subscribe or follow 607 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to this from. How I Work is 608 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. 609 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: The producer for this episode was Jenna Koda, and thank 610 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: you to Martin Nimber, who does the audio mix for 611 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: every episode and makes everything sound better than it would 612 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: have otherwise. See you next time.