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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 1: poor parent who just once answers. Now I'm doctor Justin

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Speaker 1: Coulson and today something a little different. Normally I'll have

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Speaker 1: a chat with Luke and Suzi, the husband and wife

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Speaker 1: radio duo with three young boys, will answer your questions, dramas,

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Speaker 1: queries and problems and try to make your family happier. Well,

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Speaker 1: I had a report come across my desk just in

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Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks that really caught my attention.

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Speaker 1: It was all about technology and our children, but technology

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Speaker 1: not from a parent's perspective, but from the perspective of teachers,

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Speaker 1: the people who are dealing with our children and tech

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Speaker 1: on a daily basis, almost as much, if not more

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Speaker 1: than we are. Doctor Amy Graham is a psychology researcher

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Speaker 1: at the University of New South Wales and she has

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Speaker 1: looked into technology use in schools, particularly for regional and

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Speaker 1: remote students, and she's also researched school readiness for our

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Speaker 1: little ones. Amy has previously worked as a Ministerial Advisor

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Speaker 1: to the South Australian Minister for Education and also as

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Speaker 1: a policy advisor in education in both government and non

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Speaker 1: government sectors, and Amy joins me today to.

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Speaker 2: Talk about this report.

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Speaker 1: Now, Amy's let us research as the lead researcher on

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Speaker 1: this is it's the Growing Up Digital Australia Report that

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Speaker 1: was conducted with the Gonski Institute for Education at UNSW.

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Speaker 1: The report is based on data collected late twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: prior to COVID, and it involved a survey of Australian

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Speaker 1: teachers asking them about technology at school and at home,

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Speaker 1: along with changes they've seen in the classroom in the

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Speaker 1: past three to five years as technology has become increasingly

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Speaker 1: utilized and part of the furniture. But before we talk

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Speaker 1: to tech, I asked Amy a range of questions, including

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Speaker 1: this one. Amy, what percentage of teachers are noticing a

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Speaker 1: big change in the way the classroom works over the

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Speaker 1: last few years.

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Speaker 3: Ninety percent of educators told us that they thought the

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Speaker 3: number of children with psychological, social, and behavioral challenges has

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Speaker 3: actually increased, seventy eight percent that student's ability to focus

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Speaker 3: on the educational tasks that they're set has decreased, and

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Speaker 3: then a whole fifty nine percent has observed a decline

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Speaker 3: in students overall readiness to learn.

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Speaker 2: So how do you measure readiness to learn.

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Speaker 3: We looked at readiness to learn through indicators like the

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Speaker 3: ability to focus on the task of the set students,

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Speaker 3: completion of work on time, punctuality and attendance at school,

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Speaker 3: coming to school, tired and hungry, levels of physical activity,

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Speaker 3: and their empathy and resilience, and all of those indicators

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Speaker 3: have decreased according to teachers.

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Speaker 1: What are the really interesting things about this data? And

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Speaker 1: I guess this is the nitpicky academic in me coming out,

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Speaker 1: But when we're talking about a subjective experience and we're saying, well,

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Speaker 1: what's life like now compared to what it was three

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Speaker 1: to five years ago or ten to twenty years ago,

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Speaker 1: we know that people tend to, I guess, glamorize the

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Speaker 1: past and maybe romanticize and become nostalgic about it. Whereas

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Speaker 1: what we're dealing with now is the worst it's ever been.

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Speaker 1: How do you respond to that though, from just that

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Speaker 1: bias that comes from dealing with the here and now

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Speaker 1: and the emotion of the moment versus oh yeah, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't so bad back then.

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Speaker 3: I mean, certainly that's a limitation of the methodology of

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Speaker 3: this sort of research, But we also have to give

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Speaker 3: weight to the people that are spending so much time

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Speaker 3: with our kids. So educators are seeing them and have

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Speaker 3: a really experts in their field, and they are seeing

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Speaker 3: changes over a pretty short space of time. We're not

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Speaker 3: asking them to reflect back, you know, to when they

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Speaker 3: watch TV, for example, so it's quite a short space

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Speaker 3: of time. So I think you know them being able

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Speaker 3: to give us real examples of kids not listening and

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Speaker 3: not taking notes like they did a couple of years ago,

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Speaker 3: wanting to be entertained all the time and have this

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Speaker 3: constant access to devices even when they didn't fit the task.

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Speaker 3: I think we do need to listen to those messages.

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Speaker 1: Technology is implicated in most of the challenges that the

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Speaker 1: teachers have highlighted. Last year in Australia there was a

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Speaker 1: really big debate about mobile phones in schools and several

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Speaker 1: eights made decisions to ban mobiles in public schools, certainly

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Speaker 1: in primary school.

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Speaker 2: Eighty four percent of your.

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Speaker 1: Sample of what was pretty close to two thousand teachers,

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Speaker 1: so that they perceive that digital distraction or sorry, digital

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Speaker 1: technology is as a growing distraction, which is really curious

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Speaker 1: to me because we're also seeing this really big push

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Speaker 1: for technology in the classroom, and teachers are also leading

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Speaker 1: the charge.

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Speaker 2: Are they the same teachers?

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Speaker 1: You know? The teachers are saying, well, technology is a problem.

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Speaker 1: We don't want tech unless it's our tech the way

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Speaker 1: we want it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: In so many conversations on this issue, the positive and

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Speaker 3: negative aspects are presented subjectively and focusing on these polarizing

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Speaker 3: moral questions and really pitted as a one sided argument.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's important, like you've said, not to

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Speaker 3: ignore the value of technology or only.

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Speaker 4: Explore its risks and pitfalls.

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Speaker 3: Because it is the current reality of the world that

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Speaker 3: children are growing up in, and they are growing up digitally,

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Speaker 3: but we know that we need a deeper understandings of

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Speaker 3: how they can affect children's lives and learning and well being.

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Speaker 3: And this is one of the reasons that I don't

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Speaker 3: advocate for that blanket band that some states.

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Speaker 4: Have introduced to do.

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Speaker 3: This ignores those benefits and teaches nothing about how to

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Speaker 3: regulate usage or learn how.

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Speaker 4: To be responsible and informed considered users.

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Speaker 3: So let's go to the benefits. I mean, it's clear

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Speaker 3: that technology is here to stay and it can be

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Speaker 3: really empowering for kids of all ages. So teachers use

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Speaker 3: a whole range of tools to help children learn in

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Speaker 3: fun and engaging ways, and express their creativity and stay connected.

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Speaker 3: We also know from other research that children who are

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Speaker 3: tech savvy will also be better prepared for a workforce

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Speaker 3: that's predominantly digital. So educators in our study reported some

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Speaker 3: really positive uses of media and technology in the classroom,

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Speaker 3: and fifty five percent said that student reporting for them

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Speaker 3: was enhanced by digital technologies. It also helps teachers to

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Speaker 3: facilitate greater communication and collaboration with each other and with parents.

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Speaker 3: So overall, I mean, we had close to half the

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Speaker 3: sample believing that digital technologies actually enhanced their teaching and

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Speaker 3: learning activities rather than detracting. So despite using the technology

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Speaker 3: more than ever, it seemed to teaches that the skill

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Speaker 3: level of children on these devices just hasn't kept step

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Speaker 3: with their excessive usage, so they really lacked research skills.

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Speaker 3: They might be really good at playing the games, but

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Speaker 3: they're unable to search and synthesize and critique what they're

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Speaker 3: seeing online.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you've found this or not in

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Speaker 1: your research, but certainly, anecdotally, what I find is that

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Speaker 1: work that's done on a screen, it doesn't lend itself

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Speaker 1: to the same level of deep thinking as pen and paper.

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Speaker 1: I know that there's some data, for example, that shows

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Speaker 1: that when children are studying for memorization, pen and paper

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Speaker 1: is superior. There's something about the brain processing where the

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Speaker 1: written word and picking up a pen and writing something

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Speaker 1: down versus typing it or reading it for screen. There's

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Speaker 1: something going on that makes the brain engage differently. So

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Speaker 1: I wonder if that could be one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: that there's some of these challenges that you've highlighted, and

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Speaker 1: the other one that I quickly wanted to touch on

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Speaker 1: as well, in terms of a difficulty, you were indicated

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Speaker 1: that teachers are saying the children are very capable of

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Speaker 1: working around or working on their devices, but they don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily know very much about them. And I remember reading

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Speaker 1: a book by cal Newport. I think he wrote Deep Work,

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Speaker 1: where he says giving a child on an iPad or

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Speaker 1: a screen and saying that you want them to get

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Speaker 1: good at understanding how technology works is like giving a

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Speaker 1: todd a Tonka truck and saying I want you to

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Speaker 1: grow up and be a mechanic.

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Speaker 3: Teacher certainly talked to us about the lack of interest

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Speaker 3: in handwriting or lack of interest in doing complex mathematical computations.

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Speaker 3: But on a screen they are easier for a child

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Speaker 3: perhaps to do, but they're not as impactful. So the

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Speaker 3: learning's just not perhaps taking place in the same way

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Speaker 3: that note taking. You know, there's lots of re search

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Speaker 3: around to say that that's how we absorb. Certainly that's

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Speaker 3: how I crammed in my year twelve on my little

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Speaker 3: qu cards, So I think there's lots of excellent research

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Speaker 3: in the past to show that that's a great way

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Speaker 3: to learn. So I'm not sure why we're accepting this

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Speaker 3: reality that's not expecting that same stuff.

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Speaker 1: The benefits maybe just a quick summary again, teachers are

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Speaker 1: basically saying this helps us as adults as educators to

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Speaker 1: work with one another and collaborate, and we can definitely

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Speaker 1: help those who are disadvantaged in some way, whether it's

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Speaker 1: through disability or additional needs, or those who are in

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Speaker 1: remote regional areas, and this is a way for us

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Speaker 1: to get really great quality education, personalized and customized to

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Speaker 1: their needs in a way that we previously couldn't. So

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Speaker 1: there's some clear arguments for why we really want to

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Speaker 1: see this. The last thing that I wanted to pick

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Speaker 1: up on in terms of that response, though to my

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Speaker 1: fairly long winded question, was that you suggested that the

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Speaker 1: bands on mobile phones at school is something that you're

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Speaker 1: not a supporter of. Now, I'm the kind of guy

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Speaker 1: who's very much against high levels of regulation.

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Speaker 2: I think that we want to give people autonomy.

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Speaker 1: We want to help our children to learn how to

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Speaker 1: develop and use what's in their environment in effective ways.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm the last person who would typically support

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Speaker 1: this particular band. And let's speak specifically about primary school students,

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Speaker 1: because that's where the bands have been centered, particularly the

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Speaker 1: one that got most of the attention, which was in Victoria.

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Speaker 1: What is it about that band that you don't feel

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Speaker 1: good about? And maybe I can preface your response by

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Speaker 1: quickly telling you why I decided to support it. So

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Speaker 1: I looked at it and I thought, well, first of all,

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Speaker 1: their primary school kids, So how badly do they really

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Speaker 1: need to be connected to somebody anyway? I know that

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Speaker 1: there's a very small percentage of kids who may have

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Speaker 1: really legitimate needs, and if that's the case, then perhaps

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Speaker 1: the school can address that on a case by case basis.

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Speaker 2: But the device is.

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Speaker 1: Going to be implicated and at the foundation of inattention,

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Speaker 1: behavior problems, bullying, difficulty, learning, processing, gaming, social issues. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just can't see any advantage to maintaining the status quo.

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Speaker 1: I think the ban simply makes sense to help children

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Speaker 1: to be focused, especially in those primary school years. What's

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Speaker 1: the argument, the strongest argument against the ban and allowing

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Speaker 1: autonomy in this area.

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Speaker 3: I think, like you've alluded to, it's a really complex issue,

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Speaker 3: that ban, and I think it's easy to.

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Speaker 4: Get caught up in the headline.

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Speaker 3: And I guess one of my arguments is a little

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Speaker 3: bit political. I mean, the twelve million dollars on lockers

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Speaker 3: for the ban in Victoria was one argument I thought

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Speaker 3: as an investment of government funds, I think there could

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Speaker 3: be better ones that teach children about how to regulate

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Speaker 3: their usage and be those responsible users. Look at the

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Speaker 3: curriculum around teaching about digital habits, I think is another potential.

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Speaker 3: So I guess, yes, one is the sheer cost and

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Speaker 3: the investment, but the other is the learning that takes place.

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Speaker 3: And we know that with parenting and raising children generally,

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Speaker 3: that we need to engage them in those decisions, and

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Speaker 3: we need to give them a voice and a little

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Speaker 3: bit of opportunity to show us that they're doing the

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Speaker 3: right thing. So I know that's more of a personal

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Speaker 3: position than a professional one, but I don't support it

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Speaker 3: as a position, or I certainly wouldn't like to see it.

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Speaker 4: You know, my children stopping using their.

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Speaker 3: Devices because there's a band in place, I'd like them

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Speaker 3: to have a bit of a deeper conversation around why

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Speaker 3: we don't use them at school.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we can actually probably do both, and

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Speaker 1: my position is maybe a little more moderate than I

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Speaker 1: made it out to be.

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Speaker 2: The twelve million dollars on lockers is preposterous. There has

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Speaker 2: to be a better way to do it than that.

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Speaker 1: But aside from the twelve million dollar spend that some

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Speaker 1: lucky subcontractor picked up to supply all of those lockers

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Speaker 1: to schools, it seems to me that we have a

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Speaker 1: conversation with the kids and we explain what the expectations

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Speaker 1: than rules are and if the children in class choose

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Speaker 1: not to follow those rules and expectations in the same

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Speaker 1: way that no swinging on chairs, for example, we don't

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Speaker 1: just ban chairs because the kids are swinging on it.

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Speaker 1: So we need to do both. But my sense is

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Speaker 1: that by removing the distraction. It just makes it so

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Speaker 1: much easier to do everything else that matters, and as

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Speaker 1: children get older, they begin to develop the willpower and

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Speaker 1: a deeper understanding as well. Anyway, I'm grateful for you

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Speaker 1: sharing that. Let's move on to my big question here.

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Speaker 1: This is one of the things that I've been wrestling

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Speaker 1: with for years, and it really played out in relation

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Speaker 1: to what teachers were saying about students about our children

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Speaker 1: and their technology use. So essentially, when it comes to

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Speaker 1: tech in the home, we are as a nation just

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Speaker 1: dismal keeping to the current National Screen Recommendation guidelines. Now

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Speaker 1: I have some pretty strong opinions about that, which we'll

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Speaker 1: probably get into shortly anyway. But Anthea Rhodes has collected

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of data. She runs the Child Health

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Speaker 1: Poll through the Royal Children's Hospital, and her data shows

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Speaker 1: that the typical Aussie child spends more than four and

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Speaker 1: a half hours per day on screens. Now that's not

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Speaker 1: including pandemic parenting. That's not including the screen time that

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Speaker 1: we're now experiencing or have been experiencing, as children are

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Speaker 1: on their devices all day for school, so that's not

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Speaker 1: including school work. So two questions about the child health

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Speaker 1: pol data. First of all, why are we struggling with

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Speaker 1: this so badly? Like our guidelines just too stringent? Why

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Speaker 1: do we seem to just overachieve in terms of the

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Speaker 1: amount of time that our children are spending on screens?

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Speaker 1: But second, how big of a deal is it that

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Speaker 1: these guidelines are being ignored?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I love this question because I think there's a few issues,

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Speaker 3: and I'll start by emphasizing that it does matter and

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Speaker 3: we can't keep ignoring that we have a problem with

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Speaker 3: following these guidelines and concerns about these screens and digital

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Speaker 3: media aren't going away, and they are pretty much the

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Speaker 3: number one worry of us all for the next generation.

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Speaker 4: So I think, as well as expecting.

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Speaker 3: Changes from teachers, parents, and students and kids in this

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Speaker 3: part of the change might come from those recommendations that

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Speaker 3: are in place. It may be that the minutage and

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Speaker 3: the time based guidelines are perhaps too narrow and this

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Speaker 3: approach just isn't keeping with the dynamic and complex situation.

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Speaker 3: So the American Academy of Pediatrics anticipated that, you know,

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Speaker 3: the generational shift that was coming, and amended their guidelines

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Speaker 3: to not only provide those time based recommendations, but also

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Speaker 3: broader advice about forming healthy media habits and also the

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Speaker 3: quality of screen time, recognizing that an hour of watching

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Speaker 3: YouTube videos is not really the same as an hour

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Speaker 3: spent doing in digital art program right, and these current

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Speaker 3: guidelines don't reflect those differences. I firmly believe that the

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Speaker 3: problem isn't the technology in the media. It is our

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Speaker 3: own inability to understand those benefits and perils, and that's

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Speaker 3: what leads to the problems. So those time based restrictions

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Speaker 3: don't really teach those subtleties, and in that way, I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure that they are the most sustainable solutions. So

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Speaker 3: later I'd love to have a chat about alternate ways

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Speaker 3: we could set guidelines and teach the healthy screen time habits.

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Speaker 1: Let's save into that just now, because I've a for

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Speaker 1: the last ten years, I feel like I've been saying

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Speaker 1: again and again and it's not about how much, it's

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Speaker 1: about what type I mean. Recently, Andrew Shobulski from the

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Speaker 1: Oxford Institute of Technology Institute at Oxford, Andy is just

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Speaker 1: one of the really interesting thinkers in this area, and

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Speaker 1: he said, we don't have conversations with our kids about

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Speaker 1: how much food time they've had today. You know, we

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Speaker 1: understand the difference between food that should be consumed consistently

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Speaker 1: every day and food that should be consumed maybe once

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Speaker 1: a week or once a month, or every so often,

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Speaker 1: you know, some sometimes food. And it seems to me

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Speaker 1: that we've kind of missed that nuance when it comes

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Speaker 1: to screens, and we've essentially said screens bad, you're reading

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Speaker 1: a book good, without recognizing the complexity associated with the tasks.

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Speaker 2: And that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: So I've always had a really big gripe with the

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Speaker 1: American Association of Pediatrics or the Australian governmental guidelines around this.

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Speaker 1: Just to me, it's nonsense to say this many hours

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Speaker 1: is okay, and this many hours are not recognize of

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Speaker 1: course that there's unequivocal data from around the world that

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Speaker 1: once you get north of about sort of four or

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Speaker 1: five hours a day of screen time, it is going

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Speaker 1: to have a negative developmental impact on well being and

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Speaker 1: on other variables in children's lives.

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Speaker 3: You're right, the idea of screen time at the moment

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Speaker 3: obscures that richness. We've got some great people in Australia

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Speaker 3: like Christie Goodwin and Professor Tony Oakley that also take

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Speaker 3: that similar philosophy, and the premise is that there are

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Speaker 3: productive and positive uses of digital media and devices, and

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Speaker 3: then there's other more passive and even dangerous sort of

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Speaker 3: activities when you do too much of them. You know,

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Speaker 3: there's a time for screens, but it shouldn't be at

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Speaker 3: the expense of time spent playing outside or connecting with

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Speaker 3: people in real time. So we also, you know, even

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Speaker 3: in the Growing Up Digital Australia research, we looked at

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Speaker 3: the well being of kids across the whole breadth of outcomes,

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Speaker 3: but we can't and shouldn't definitively or exclusively attribute that

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Speaker 3: to their technology usage. And I think sometimes it's a

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Speaker 3: confusing position. It's not a binary one or the other.

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Speaker 3: I think if we can teach that balanced approach, that's

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Speaker 3: the way that I'd like to see this conversation going forward.

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Speaker 1: What are the risk factors and protective factors of kids

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Speaker 1: who are using screens too much when you look at

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Speaker 1: demographic characteristics, And I know this is a very blunt instrument,

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Speaker 1: but who are the kids that are most at risk?

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Speaker 1: Who are the kids that are most likely to be

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Speaker 1: just fine regardless of their screen time habits.

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Speaker 3: You know, in previous research as well as ours. It

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Speaker 3: has been shown that screen time is higher in families

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Speaker 3: with lower incomes, and they're also unfortunately the most at

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Speaker 3: risk of those negative consequences, so like the poorer friendships

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Speaker 3: and the lower academic performance and concentration, and those negative

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Speaker 3: consequences do compound and get worse over time, and so

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Speaker 3: often does the usage.

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Speaker 4: So it's quite a slippery slope.

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Speaker 3: And if you haven't got those right habits from the start,

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Speaker 3: it's much harder to wind that usage back once you

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Speaker 3: realize there's a problem.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's something that I've looked at fairly carefully here,

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Speaker 1: and I feel so frustrated and so desperate for those

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Speaker 1: families that are struggling with this. Is they might have

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Speaker 1: lower incomes, but they're usually working longer hours to get

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Speaker 1: those lower incomes, but they're in the lower paid jobs.

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Speaker 1: Or we've got a single mom or a single dad

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Speaker 1: who's just not able to be at home or is

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Speaker 1: working two jobs or doing everything that they can to

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Speaker 1: provide for their family, but therefore they're not able to

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Speaker 1: provide the level of supervision that they want. So we've

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Speaker 1: got all these structural things that are making it so

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Speaker 1: hard for these well frankly for the poorer families, you know,

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Speaker 1: the lower socioeconomic group, who want to be helping their children,

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Speaker 1: and so they're going to work to earn the money

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Speaker 1: to look after things. But that means that the children

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Speaker 1: are often left in front, left to their own devices, literally,

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Speaker 1: which means that screen time goes up.

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Speaker 2: And it's one of those interesting things.

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Speaker 1: In the data where we can't necessarily say, well, it's

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Speaker 1: because of screen time, or it's because of X, Y

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Speaker 1: or z, because all of these factors work together. Kids

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Speaker 1: that come from these perhaps poorer backgrounds may struggle a

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Speaker 1: little more socially, or struggle a little more academically anyway,

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Speaker 1: and then we're throwing extra screen time in on top

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Speaker 1: of that, and people saying, oh, the kids are on

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Speaker 1: screens too much.

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Speaker 2: But it could be any number of these factors.

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Speaker 1: But it seems that all these kinds of things they

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Speaker 1: hang together, they mix in together. Would that be a

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Speaker 1: reasonable thing to say, I think so.

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Speaker 3: I mean, unfortunately, we do know that in that digital divide,

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Speaker 3: the traditional digital divide was perhaps the kids that could

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Speaker 3: afford technology and might not be able to But now

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Speaker 3: we've got the digital divide going across with that educational divide.

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Speaker 4: So we're seeing the higher and lower performing students.

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Speaker 3: The gap between those students is increasing, and then often

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Speaker 3: we've got those same children coming to school with the

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Speaker 3: poor screen time habits. They may have had a little

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Speaker 3: bit more of the digital babysitter. And once again, I'm

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Speaker 3: so cautious in saying that, because we all do it,

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Speaker 3: you know where all I'm really really trying to be

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Speaker 3: kind to parents in understanding this issue. There's no nothing

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Speaker 3: to be gained from allocating blame or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: But if children do see it as a source of

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Speaker 3: entertainment and have unregulated, unfettered use of these devices, it's

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Speaker 3: quite hard to wind that back. And we're putting that

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Speaker 3: on teachers. Teachers aren't trained to deal with exclusively online bullying, harassment,

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Speaker 3: the issues of distraction taking screens off them.

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Speaker 4: They're not trained in that. Neither are parents.

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Speaker 3: But there's a real confusion we found with the teachers

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Speaker 3: in our study that where does their jurisdiction end. Where

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Speaker 3: can they influence parents and try to help them understand

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Speaker 3: the risks and perhaps a better way to use screams

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Speaker 3: in the home.

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Speaker 2: It's a vexed issue.

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Speaker 1: It kind of leads into a bigger conversation, and I

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Speaker 1: want to spend a couple of minutes on this because

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Speaker 1: I don't think we're going to solve the problems of

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Speaker 1: the world, just highlighting the systemic and structural challenges. There

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Speaker 1: are some fears, and I mean really almost vitriolic academic

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Speaker 1: arguments that are going on in psychology right now, primarily

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Speaker 1: between Andy Shabulski, who I mentioned earlier, and he's at

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Speaker 1: Oxford with one of his collaborators, Amy Auburn, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it's Twinge or twin Gay. I have

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Speaker 1: to ask her at San Diego and her collaborators and

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Speaker 1: one of the world's foremost psychology thinkers, John Hate has

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Speaker 1: just joined the fray and seems to be aligning himself

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Speaker 1: fairly closely with what Gene twin Gey is saying, but essentially,

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Speaker 1: and he's saying that how many potatoes you eat each

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Speaker 1: day probably have a bigger effect on well being than

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Speaker 1: how much screen time you're getting. And Gen's saying that

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Speaker 1: life changed in twenty twelve when screens became ubiquitous and

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Speaker 1: everybody had them. Now, anecdotally, it feels as if Jane's right,

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Speaker 1: and the teachers in your study in the Growing Up

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Speaker 1: Digital Australia Report almost without question leaned in that direction.

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Speaker 1: One of them said, and I quote, there is increasing

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Speaker 1: anxiety among students. Some cases are severe. Twenty five years

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Speaker 1: ago this was very rare, with one or two students

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Speaker 1: in an entire school suffering anxiety. Now it's common to

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Speaker 1: have several students with depression and anxiety in every year group.

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Speaker 1: And another one said, as a teacher, I've certainly noticed

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Speaker 1: the large number of students in my classes with diagnosed

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Speaker 1: mental health issues. I've also noticed many students struggled to

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Speaker 1: not be in constant contact with their phone. So what

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Speaker 1: I saw when I was reading through the Growing Up

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Speaker 1: Digital Australia Technical Report was that teachers essentially are saying, yep,

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Speaker 1: things are getting worse in the classroom. Children are struggling

440
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 1: more psychologically and emotionally and socially and in all these

441
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:31,119
Speaker 1: other ways. The classroom condition has become more complex, and

442
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 1: they're really siding with Gene Twinge and saying, and we

443
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 1: think that it's happened in the last few years.

444
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 2: And we think that it's because of screens.

445
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 1: So what advice would you offer to parents and educators

446
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: around this issue. I mean, is it screens, is gene

447
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 1: right or is Andy right? Where do you use it

448
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 1: position yourself? And what kind of advice do you give

449
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: around this?

450
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 3: Oh? I think, like most things, the truth is probably

451
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 3: somewhere in the middle of those polarizing, binary sort of options.

452
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 4: But I mean, with her findings with the have smartphones

453
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 4: destroyed a generation?

454
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 3: I can see how tweenoys research has been conceived as

455
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 3: one side and an alarmist.

456
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 4: And maybe a step too far.

457
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 3: But she also makes the point that her research is correlational,

458
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 3: so it didn't intend to look at a causal link

459
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 3: between screen time and the negative consequences. But a bit

460
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 3: like ours in Growing Up Digital, we don't see causation either.

461
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 3: So we're looking at what Australian educators are saying about

462
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 3: the well being outcomes of kids across a whole range

463
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 3: of outcomes. They're also looking at the changes in screen use.

464
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 3: Now those have both gone in a really common sense direction.

465
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 3: So while we've seen the screen time go up and

466
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 3: the distraction in the classroom increase, we can't still say

467
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 3: that they're causally linked. But should we be listening to

468
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,239
Speaker 3: those people that spend a lot of time with our

469
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 3: kids about their concerns.

470
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 4: Absolutely we should.

471
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 1: So let's get a bit geeky for just a sey then,

472
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 1: because what I find really compelling about Twiney's research is

473
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 1: that she's using very large data sets. She's doing longitudinal research,

474
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 1: which it doesn't say that A is causing B, but

475
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 1: she's got a whole lot of variables that are all

476
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: pointing in the same direction. And what they're all essentially

477
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: pointing to is that. In fact, the way that I

478
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,479
Speaker 1: kind of try to balance the two arguments is I

479
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 1: like her argument. I think that it's stronger. But Andy's

480
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 1: a really sharp researcher and his insights are I mean,

481
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: he's not doing this to be contentious.

482
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 2: He's a smart and switched on guy.

483
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 1: I've had privilege of listening to him at conferences previously

484
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: and even having some one on one conversations with him

485
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: at those conferences around some of these issues, so I

486
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,439
Speaker 1: know how sharp this guy is.

487
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 2: He's basically saying, you.

488
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: Can't blame screens, you might as well blame how many

489
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: potatoes you eat, and she's saying, well, hang on, screens

490
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: are implicated in all of this. And as I look

491
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: at what I feel is that there's a common element

492
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: underneath all of these issues. It may not actually be

493
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: screens that are causing social problems. It may not actually

494
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: be screens causing distraction and drama and all sorts of

495
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: these dilemmas, because we can't say that it's causal, but

496
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: we can say that screens are implicated and potentially at

497
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: the foundation of each of these issues. Do you think

498
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: that that's a reasonable position to maintain.

499
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 3: I do, and that's certainly the premise of our research.

500
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 3: Despite it being anecdotal. We did observe trends happening at

501
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 3: the same time, and that's compelling.

502
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: So I guess that's probably a pretty neat place for

503
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: us to wrap things up. There's clearly good. We've talked

504
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 1: about good in the classroom and in life. When it

505
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: comes to screens, we've talked about the bad. And while

506
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,199
Speaker 1: we haven't dwelt on that, everybody's aware that there are

507
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: some real challenges associated with screen usage, and we've talked

508
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: about a bit of the ugly as well. But if

509
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: you're going to give maybe your last advice to parents

510
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 1: and teachers who are grappling with how to best manage screens,

511
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 1: what would you advise where do you think the Growing

512
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: Up Digital Australia report points us in terms of helping

513
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 1: our children who have foid those bad and ugly outcomes

514
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: and get the very best out of their screen you see,

515
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: especially since there's so much of it as a result

516
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: of COVID nineteen.

517
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 3: For my family, I love screen time followed by green time,

518
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 3: So really the balance in my family really matters. But

519
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 3: whatever you choose, whether it be the time based guidelines

520
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 3: or whatever it is that you choose, try and give

521
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 3: kids a voice and some buy in at the decision

522
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 3: making table about this. If they help to make the rules,

523
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 3: as we know, they'd be a lot more likely to

524
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 3: follow them. Try to follow them as consistently as possible.

525
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 3: As tempting as it is when kids can be begging

526
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 3: and bargaining for more time, or you really do need

527
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 3: that break, when you need to get something done, try

528
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 3: to be as firm and consistent as possible.

529
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 2: Great.

530
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: So the takeaway really is know what's going on, set

531
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: appropriate limits, make sure that your kids are using screens

532
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 1: more for creation and connection than consumption, and do your

533
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: best to just be across it. It's less about the

534
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: device and more about what they're doing. In their lives.

535
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 1: They can have a whole and balanced life. I mean,

536
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 1: it almost sounds like it's getting back to common sense.

537
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 3: It is, I think when we look at what the

538
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 3: antidotes to screens, which is why I love this green

539
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 3: time followed by screen time, you know, being outside.

540
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 4: They don't have to be one or the other.

541
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 3: A great afternoon probably for a child is you know,

542
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 3: making a pick collage of some of their favorite photos,

543
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 3: followed by playing on the swing and then maybe reading

544
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 3: a book, cooking a meal with a parent. So I

545
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 3: think we'd all strive for that balance in our families.

546
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 2: It sounds like a good afternoon for me, let alone

547
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 2: for the kids. I like the sound of that. Amy.

548
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: It's been an absolute delight talking with you. I really

549
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: appreciate generosity and sharing this research with us, and we're

550
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: too next with the Growing Up Digital Australia research. I

551
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 1: can't imagine that this is a one.

552
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 4: Off, No, it's not.

553
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,479
Speaker 3: So Phase two is actually going to be giving this

554
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 3: voice to parents and grandparents. We really want to understand

555
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 3: the issues from their perspective. We feel like I've got

556
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 3: a reasonable handle now on what's going on in schools,

557
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 3: but we want to understand more about what parents are

558
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 3: seeing in their children and the kinds of relationships they're

559
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 3: observing between the children's screen time and any changes that

560
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 3: are taking place. I urge all parents and grandparents to

561
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 3: get on board and have a go at it when

562
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,479
Speaker 3: it comes out later in the year hopefully.

563
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 1: Well that sounds great, make sure you send that my

564
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 1: way and I'll share it with my followers on Facebook

565
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: and encourage them all to give you the very best

566
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: data that we can.

567
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 4: It was so great talking to you.

568
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 2: Thank you, Amy, It's been a delight talking with you.

569
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: Really appreciate it.

570
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: This is doctor Amy Graham, the lead investigator in the

571
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: Growing Up Digital Australia Report from the Gonsky Institute for

572
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: Education at the University of New South Wales. Thank you

573
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: so much, Amy, and we'll have more special interviews and

574
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: conversations as the podcast grows and develops. You've probably noticed

575
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,479
Speaker 1: that we're doing a few things differently there. If you've

576
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: enjoyed this interview and the podcast generally, please jump on

577
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: to Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your

578
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: podcasts from and leave a rating and a review. It

579
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: helps them to find the podcast as well and for

580
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: more information Happy families dot com, dot you, or my

581
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: Facebook page Doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families