1
00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,960
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

2
00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:10,000
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

3
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,760
Speaker 2: Now, it's important to see when women, particularly and kids

4
00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,000
Speaker 2: are going through coercive control, that this is essentially a

5
00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:18,320
Speaker 2: kind to being in a cult.

6
00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,000
Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My mum

7
00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:22,480
Speaker 1: and dad.

8
00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:24,640
Speaker 3: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson, the author of six

9
00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,760
Speaker 3: books about raising happy families. I'm not with my wife

10
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,440
Speaker 3: and co hosts today Kylie missus Happy Families. And she's

11
00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,680
Speaker 3: desperately disappointed because this is an interview that we've been

12
00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,559
Speaker 3: looking forward to having today for just.

13
00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:39,600
Speaker 4: So very very long.

14
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,440
Speaker 3: This is an interview that is not like our usual interviews.

15
00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,960
Speaker 3: Normally we're talking about making families happy. This interview is

16
00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,120
Speaker 3: about families that are dysfunctional in some of the worst ways.

17
00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,080
Speaker 3: And that's because throughout the month of May it's Domestic

18
00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,240
Speaker 3: and Family Violence Prevention Month. Domestic and Family Violence Prevention

19
00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,640
Speaker 3: Month is held every May to raise community awareness and

20
00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,760
Speaker 3: promote a clear message that domestic and family violence will

21
00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,679
Speaker 3: not be tolerated in our communities. Last year I read

22
00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:08,360
Speaker 3: a book. It's called See What You Made Me Do.

23
00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,000
Speaker 3: It's by Jess Hill and It's a book about power

24
00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,720
Speaker 3: control and domestic abuse. That is, the violence and the

25
00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,520
Speaker 3: controlling that can go on in far too many families,

26
00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,800
Speaker 3: not just in Australia but all over the world. Before

27
00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,560
Speaker 3: we begin this interview, I just want to highlight that

28
00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,280
Speaker 3: the content that we're going to discuss may be very

29
00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,680
Speaker 3: distressing for some people. While we're going to do our

30
00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,759
Speaker 3: best to keep it at a level that is safe,

31
00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:38,120
Speaker 3: the reality is that conversations about domestic abuse, coercive control

32
00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:43,360
Speaker 3: and violence in families can be distressing and disturbing. The

33
00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,080
Speaker 3: book was one of the most amazing books that I've

34
00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:46,920
Speaker 3: read over the last several years. I made a big

35
00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:48,680
Speaker 3: deal about it in my End of Year book list

36
00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,920
Speaker 3: last year. The book is called See What You Made

37
00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,400
Speaker 3: Me Do, and Jess Hill is the authoress. Thank you

38
00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,080
Speaker 3: so much for joining me today.

39
00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:57,680
Speaker 2: My pleasure justin thank you for having me.

40
00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,960
Speaker 3: Before we get into all all the stuff that's going

41
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,240
Speaker 3: on at the moment in the world when it comes

42
00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:08,120
Speaker 3: to domestic abuse, because this is becoming fortunately a topic

43
00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,560
Speaker 3: that people are willing to talk about more now than ever.

44
00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,120
Speaker 4: Why have you chosen.

45
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,120
Speaker 3: To call the issue domestic abuse rather than domestic violence,

46
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:17,959
Speaker 3: which is what we normally hear in the media.

47
00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:23,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's based on the work of Yasmin Khan,

48
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,040
Speaker 2: particularly who's a community services work upper in Brisbane, works

49
00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,400
Speaker 2: a lot with subcontinent women from the Subcontinent, and she

50
00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,480
Speaker 2: really found that she's getting a lot of women coming

51
00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,840
Speaker 2: into her service who would describe the most horrific campaigns

52
00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,960
Speaker 2: of control and degradation, and they would say, it's not

53
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,720
Speaker 2: really domestic violence because he's never hit me. And so

54
00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,880
Speaker 2: she wrote this article basically calling for a change in

55
00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,600
Speaker 2: the language from domestic violence to domestic abuse, because there

56
00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,519
Speaker 2: are so many people who don't identify with the idea

57
00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,960
Speaker 2: that they've been subjected to abuse because they've not experienced

58
00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,920
Speaker 2: physical violence or they've only experienced it sparingly. And so

59
00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,560
Speaker 2: when I read that, it just felt immediately apparent that

60
00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,720
Speaker 2: that's what we had to do. And the way that

61
00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,520
Speaker 2: I kind of explain that is that we have a

62
00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,360
Speaker 2: term for the abuse of children, which is child abuse,

63
00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,000
Speaker 2: and inside that term we contain the worst violence, but

64
00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:27,280
Speaker 2: also the absence of contact, which is neglect. And I

65
00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 2: agree when people say that we don't want to sanitize

66
00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,160
Speaker 2: the language, and some people I was worried that taking

67
00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,040
Speaker 2: it from domestic violence to domestic abuse, it's almost feels

68
00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,600
Speaker 2: like it's sanitizing it. But actually, I think it's more

69
00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,440
Speaker 2: important to be inclusive of people who haven't experienced much

70
00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:50,279
Speaker 2: physical violence than to make the language somehow contain immediately

71
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,400
Speaker 2: the threat of it, because I think, you know, domestic

72
00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,120
Speaker 2: violence doesn't contain what domestic violence actually is either. No

73
00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,920
Speaker 2: term is really going to contain it, aside from sometimes

74
00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,280
Speaker 2: like intimate terrorism and others that don't really apply to

75
00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,560
Speaker 2: every case of domestic abuse. So it's the best catch

76
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:07,520
Speaker 2: all term.

77
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:09,480
Speaker 4: What made you decide to research it?

78
00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,560
Speaker 3: I mean, a this is not the kind of thing

79
00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,840
Speaker 3: where you're sitting around on a Friday night with friends saying,

80
00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,000
Speaker 3: you know, I'm really interested in how people hurt each

81
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:17,480
Speaker 3: other in their families. I think I'm going to go

82
00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:19,279
Speaker 3: and write a book. Where where did this idea come

83
00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,120
Speaker 3: from for you? Because it's just such an extraordinary book

84
00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,520
Speaker 3: and your heart is clearly in it. But it's not

85
00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,040
Speaker 3: the kind of thing that people get excited about reading

86
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:27,719
Speaker 3: or writing.

87
00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, well that's right, And in fact, there wasn't many

88
00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,320
Speaker 5: opportunities while I was writing it to bring it up

89
00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:34,800
Speaker 5: at any dinner parties I having to.

90
00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,359
Speaker 4: Go to can't imagine it felt very.

91
00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:42,560
Speaker 2: Private as a as a job. I think that I

92
00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,800
Speaker 2: decided to write this book about it because I was

93
00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,400
Speaker 2: still excited by it. And when I say excited, what

94
00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,760
Speaker 2: I mean is that every time I would find something

95
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,080
Speaker 2: new out about domestic abuse or about the way our

96
00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,800
Speaker 2: systems respond to it, it would blow my mind and

97
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,839
Speaker 2: it would overturn so many of my own biases and misperceptions.

98
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:05,960
Speaker 3: Could you give me an example of that. Let's be

99
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,280
Speaker 3: really concrete about this. What's one thing that you read

100
00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,159
Speaker 3: and you just went, oh, I never thought of that.

101
00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,360
Speaker 5: So, for example, I thought for a long time that

102
00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:17,599
Speaker 5: mothers who.

103
00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,000
Speaker 2: Go to the family court would would just you.

104
00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:25,120
Speaker 5: Know, probably pretty commonly exaggerate allegations of domestic abuse to

105
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,279
Speaker 5: get an advantage in custody cases.

106
00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,240
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of stories about that, right, I mean,

107
00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,040
Speaker 3: this comes up all the time, especially on Twitter.

108
00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:37,480
Speaker 2: Yeah so, and about forty percent plus of austrains believe

109
00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,720
Speaker 2: that that they routinely do that. And then it was

110
00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,520
Speaker 2: the first conversation I had with a protective parent who

111
00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,120
Speaker 2: was a mother who told me about the fact that

112
00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,360
Speaker 2: her lawyers had told her not to raise allegations of

113
00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,120
Speaker 2: domestic abuse because it would probably sway the case against

114
00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,440
Speaker 2: her and be it in go against her favor, and

115
00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,200
Speaker 2: that that in fact had happened, and when her own

116
00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:00,880
Speaker 2: children had.

117
00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,520
Speaker 5: Made allegations of sexual abuse, it was reframed to be

118
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,680
Speaker 5: a result of her own anxiety projected onto the children,

119
00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,680
Speaker 5: and that they had made those allegations to somehow please her,

120
00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,520
Speaker 5: and the custody was switched entirely from their primary care

121
00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,919
Speaker 5: giver immediately to the father.

122
00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:21,880
Speaker 2: I thought that was maybe just a bit of a

123
00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:22,280
Speaker 2: one off.

124
00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:24,880
Speaker 5: I thought that's a shocking story, But then I started

125
00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:26,960
Speaker 5: looking at all the reports over the last twenty years,

126
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:28,239
Speaker 5: and so that is a pattern.

127
00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,880
Speaker 3: And so it's very very provocative, isn't it to come

128
00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,160
Speaker 3: out and say this is a this is a pervasive,

129
00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:40,000
Speaker 3: systemic issue that mothers, rather than the common narrative in

130
00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:44,120
Speaker 3: some corners that mothers are embellishing abuse so that they

131
00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,440
Speaker 3: can get custody, that they're actually being counseled to stay

132
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,800
Speaker 3: away from making those accusations at all because they might

133
00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:49,520
Speaker 3: lose custody.

134
00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,400
Speaker 2: Precisely, and really, for years that was just the standard

135
00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:58,360
Speaker 2: legal advice, and still to this day you have lawyers saying, well,

136
00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,800
Speaker 2: maybe just don't all of those allegations out, you know,

137
00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,960
Speaker 2: even where there's been convictions, the basic pro contact ethos

138
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,720
Speaker 2: of the court is that a child is better off

139
00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,400
Speaker 2: with both parents, and only in the most exceptional circumstances

140
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,200
Speaker 2: should an abusive parent be prohibited from seeing that child,

141
00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:22,120
Speaker 2: which is the result is frankly scandalous in terms of

142
00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:23,240
Speaker 2: what's happening in this country.

143
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,840
Speaker 3: Jess, you decide to write a book about domestic abuse

144
00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:33,080
Speaker 3: because you uncover all of these unexpected truths that people

145
00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:38,560
Speaker 3: don't usually understand. Just to be really clear, how do

146
00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,840
Speaker 3: we define domestic abuse, because we're going to talk about

147
00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,280
Speaker 3: it for the next several minutes, it's probably important that

148
00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,160
Speaker 3: we're really really clear about what domestic.

149
00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,040
Speaker 2: Abuse is well, like on the you know, in terms

150
00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,080
Speaker 2: of our legislation, every state has as variations on how

151
00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,680
Speaker 2: they describe how they define it, but generally speaking, it's

152
00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,720
Speaker 2: known to include many different types of abuse, from physical

153
00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:08,120
Speaker 2: to financial, spiritual, emotional, psychological, et cetera. We've now also

154
00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,120
Speaker 2: come to the point where actually having children in an

155
00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,120
Speaker 2: abusive household is defined as a type of abuse in itself.

156
00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,200
Speaker 2: That children being exposed and living in that environment is abusive.

157
00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:24,160
Speaker 2: So where I think we're going now with a better

158
00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,160
Speaker 2: and more common understanding of coursive control is understanding that

159
00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:34,040
Speaker 2: in some relationships you have violence or psychological abuse, et cetera.

160
00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,160
Speaker 2: But where there's not a significant power imbalance and you

161
00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,439
Speaker 2: might actually have it coming from both sides, you might

162
00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,160
Speaker 2: just have it coming from one side, but essentially there's

163
00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,080
Speaker 2: not a total system in which a power and balance

164
00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,400
Speaker 2: is very clear. Then you have coercive control, which we

165
00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,880
Speaker 2: think you know affects about sixty to eighty percent of

166
00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,840
Speaker 2: women who seek help, could be much higher. There's not

167
00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:56,880
Speaker 2: a lot of research on that.

168
00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,920
Speaker 3: You've raised this idea of coursive control. What is course

169
00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,320
Speaker 3: control and how does it differ from domestic abuse or

170
00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:03,760
Speaker 3: is it a type of domestic abuse?

171
00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's some people, some in the domestic valance sector

172
00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:08,960
Speaker 2: will say this is the only thing they deal with.

173
00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,320
Speaker 2: They don't deal with one off incidents or you know,

174
00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,960
Speaker 2: random patterns of assault. And what course of control is

175
00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,120
Speaker 2: is essentially a system of entrapment to which various different

176
00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:31,040
Speaker 2: techniques are used, including isolation, including intimidation and degradation, micromanagement

177
00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,160
Speaker 2: of behavior, so setting arbitrary rules and demands and then

178
00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,240
Speaker 2: punishing the partner for breaking them withholding necessary resources like

179
00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:42,840
Speaker 2: money or access to transport, the abuse or threats to

180
00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:47,320
Speaker 2: harm children and or pets or themselves as using that

181
00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,880
Speaker 2: as a threat, humiliation and degradation, gas lighting, and essentially

182
00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:57,880
Speaker 2: just creating this overarching environment of confusion, contradicting remarks and

183
00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,600
Speaker 2: a sense of extreme threat, sense that the person is

184
00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,280
Speaker 2: constantly having to walk on eggshells because I don't know

185
00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,120
Speaker 2: when they're going to put a foot wrong next, And

186
00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:13,040
Speaker 2: essentially this whole system becomes a system of entrapment, and

187
00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,160
Speaker 2: the ultimate goal is to reduce the victim to a

188
00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,359
Speaker 2: state of compliance and dependency.

189
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,080
Speaker 3: Jess, I remember as I read your book, I was

190
00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,840
Speaker 3: overwhelmed several times and found myself laying in bed or

191
00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,559
Speaker 3: sitting in my car weeping with sadness.

192
00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,959
Speaker 4: And I'm I'm feeling that again. I just.

193
00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,520
Speaker 3: I've lost for words in so many ways. What I'd

194
00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,560
Speaker 3: like to do is take a quick break and come

195
00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,079
Speaker 3: back in just a sec and ask you. I mean,

196
00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,360
Speaker 3: we could talk about so much that you've already covered,

197
00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:47,439
Speaker 3: but I want to talk about what we can do

198
00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,040
Speaker 3: to help if we know somebody who's going through this

199
00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,240
Speaker 3: or what we can do if it's us. So we're

200
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:53,560
Speaker 3: going to take a real quick break and come back

201
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:54,160
Speaker 3: in just a second.

202
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,199
Speaker 1: It's their Happy Famili's podcast for.

203
00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:01,200
Speaker 3: A happier family, Try a Happy Families, because a happy

204
00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:06,160
Speaker 3: family doesn't just happen. Details at happyfamilies dot com dot au.

205
00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,200
Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the typoor

206
00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,880
Speaker 3: parent who just wants answers now. And we're having a

207
00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,160
Speaker 3: conversation that's really unusual for this podcast. I hope that

208
00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,920
Speaker 3: you're doing okay, because the topic that we're talking about

209
00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,679
Speaker 3: is one that is really hard to consider, especially if

210
00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,480
Speaker 3: you live in a wonderful relationship where these kinds of

211
00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,320
Speaker 3: things just don't happen. And it may be even harder

212
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,000
Speaker 3: to participate in a conversation like this if you're in

213
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,360
Speaker 3: a relationship where things aren't great and you have felt

214
00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,440
Speaker 3: scared or threatened or afraid. I'm speaking with Jess Hill.

215
00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,160
Speaker 3: Jess as the author of See What You Made Me Do,

216
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,199
Speaker 3: a book about power control and domestic abuse and a

217
00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,320
Speaker 3: little every year ago. I read this book and decided

218
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,680
Speaker 3: this was one of the best books that I've ever read,

219
00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,880
Speaker 3: as hard as it was to read it, and that

220
00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:51,679
Speaker 3: I just had to talk to Jess on the podcast

221
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:58,800
Speaker 3: because we've got Domestic Violence Prevention Month upon us right now. Jess,

222
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,080
Speaker 3: we've been talking about what domestic violence is, what coercive

223
00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,080
Speaker 3: control is, who is affected by it, and how, And

224
00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:08,480
Speaker 3: I know that there's so much more that we could

225
00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,520
Speaker 3: talk about. In your book, you talk about the way

226
00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,960
Speaker 3: that police are involved, what's good and what's bad, what

227
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,640
Speaker 3: they're doing. You talk about why it's occurring. You know

228
00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,120
Speaker 3: why men and women do so much damage to their

229
00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:22,839
Speaker 3: intimate partners and to their children. You talk about the

230
00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,280
Speaker 3: impact on women, on men, on the children themselves. And

231
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,160
Speaker 3: I mean, there are some things that I've read in

232
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,400
Speaker 3: that book that I don't know that I'll ever fully

233
00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,520
Speaker 3: get over because I was so I was so moved,

234
00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:38,240
Speaker 3: and so I felt like I had been injured. I

235
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,440
Speaker 3: was so hurt for those children. But I really want

236
00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,120
Speaker 3: to know what we can do. This is a podcast

237
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,040
Speaker 3: about giving people answers. If we know somebody who may

238
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,720
Speaker 3: be harmed, who may be in danger, what advice Having

239
00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,680
Speaker 3: done years of research into this, now, what advice do

240
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,960
Speaker 3: you have for somebody who is in a coercively controlling environment,

241
00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,560
Speaker 3: in an environment where there is violence or some form

242
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,520
Speaker 3: of abuse, something that's going on that's just not right

243
00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:07,720
Speaker 3: and shouldn't be occurring.

244
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:13,679
Speaker 2: It's one of the hardest things is to support or

245
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,480
Speaker 2: try to support someone who is being subjected to this,

246
00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,480
Speaker 2: and that is because I think it's very important and

247
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,920
Speaker 2: this is not all abusive relationships, as I said earlier,

248
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,480
Speaker 2: but it's important to see when women, particularly and kids

249
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,920
Speaker 2: are going through coercive control that this is essentially akin

250
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,440
Speaker 2: to being in a cult. It's a coursive control is

251
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,640
Speaker 2: seen in cults, it's used in sex trafficking, it's used

252
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:41,200
Speaker 2: in hostage situations. And what it does is it makes

253
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:45,160
Speaker 2: itself invisible. And what is demanded of the people inside

254
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:50,360
Speaker 2: that system is loyalty to the perpetrator. And it's not

255
00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,480
Speaker 2: just that they demand that loyalty. They do things so

256
00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,880
Speaker 2: that that person feels like they must be loyal both

257
00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:01,320
Speaker 2: to protect themselves and also protect the perpetrator. Now, so

258
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,200
Speaker 2: when you're trying to talk to somebody about it, if

259
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,960
Speaker 2: you have suspicions about the fact that they may be

260
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:11,800
Speaker 2: being controlled or abused, you can find yourself being rebuffed,

261
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,600
Speaker 2: or you can find someone saying no, no, no, no, everything's fine,

262
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,640
Speaker 2: Everything's fine. There's no problems here. When you know that

263
00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,720
Speaker 2: there is a problem, you know that something is going on. Now,

264
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,320
Speaker 2: a lot of people and I totally understand this, and

265
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,320
Speaker 2: I've been in this situation myself, end up backing away

266
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,840
Speaker 2: from those friends and family because they just cannot try

267
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,080
Speaker 2: to have that conversation again. It's just so depressing, so difficult.

268
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,000
Speaker 2: But what they do by doing that is they end

269
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,320
Speaker 2: up isolating that person almost on behalf of the perpetrator.

270
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:50,120
Speaker 2: Isolation is the one most enduring thing for abuse. So

271
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,200
Speaker 2: if you are isolated and you have nobody.

272
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,680
Speaker 5: To reflect back to you what you're going through, no

273
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,080
Speaker 5: one to speak to about it, no one to seek

274
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:02,400
Speaker 5: help from, that's when it becomes particularly trapping. So the

275
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,120
Speaker 5: best thing that you can do, as someone who sees

276
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,600
Speaker 5: someone going through it, or sees someone's kids going through it,

277
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:13,320
Speaker 5: is make it very clear that you are you are

278
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,640
Speaker 5: not delivering an ultimatum, but you are open to talk

279
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,160
Speaker 5: at any time that you are. We will always be

280
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,080
Speaker 5: there if they get to a point where they need

281
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,280
Speaker 5: a space of safety, that your phone is always on

282
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,400
Speaker 5: and you'll be there for them, and that you know

283
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,560
Speaker 5: they can maybe come to your house or that you'll

284
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,360
Speaker 5: be a place of refuge for them. If the children

285
00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,280
Speaker 5: are in danger, or if there's a feeling of immediate risk,

286
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,280
Speaker 5: I think sometimes you have to make that really horrific

287
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:47,760
Speaker 5: decision or think about calling police. Sometimes it's out of

288
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,640
Speaker 5: your hands, you know. Sometimes the threat is so great

289
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,520
Speaker 5: and there may be so much resistance on behalf of

290
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,200
Speaker 5: the victim survivor, which may be totally relevant, but you.

291
00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:01,160
Speaker 2: May have no other choice. And that's a horrible sort

292
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,960
Speaker 2: of point to be at. If you're in a coercive

293
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,200
Speaker 2: control relationship or an abusive relationship with an abusive partner,

294
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,760
Speaker 2: I should say, and you're not sure what to do next,

295
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,720
Speaker 2: and if you know that you're what you're going through,

296
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,280
Speaker 2: or maybe you've only just twigged having listened to the

297
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,960
Speaker 2: behaviors described what the best The best first step for

298
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,040
Speaker 2: people is to develop a safety plan. Now that does

299
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,440
Speaker 2: not mean that you're necessarily planning to leave. What it

300
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,640
Speaker 2: means is you need to develop some plan for if

301
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,640
Speaker 2: things escalate or how you are going to achieve greater

302
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,240
Speaker 2: safety in which whatever way that looks. Maybe it looks

303
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,640
Speaker 2: like you're staying in the relationship for now, but do

304
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,920
Speaker 2: you confide in one trustworthy person, so that you've got

305
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,720
Speaker 2: someone to speak to about it. Maybe it does look

306
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,520
Speaker 2: like leaving and you go, okay, I need to speak

307
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,440
Speaker 2: to maybe a domestic violence caseworker, or even just get

308
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,840
Speaker 2: together copies of your important documents so that if you

309
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,520
Speaker 2: have to run out the door, you're not going with

310
00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,080
Speaker 2: you know, a dollar in your pocket and no access

311
00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,520
Speaker 2: to your records, so and you have somewhere to go

312
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,120
Speaker 2: and you've got a bit of a plan for how

313
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,360
Speaker 2: that might happen. Safety planning is the first step I think,

314
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:18,040
Speaker 2: you know, really to creating a space of change, but

315
00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,679
Speaker 2: talking to people reading the literature if you can, if

316
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,520
Speaker 2: it's safe. One victim of course of control actually listened

317
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,480
Speaker 2: to my book on audiobooks, so she would listen to

318
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,719
Speaker 2: it in headphones as she'd be doing the washing up

319
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,480
Speaker 2: because she couldn't have a physical book in the room.

320
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,040
Speaker 2: So there are different ways in which you can engage

321
00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,679
Speaker 2: with this stuff and learn about it. There's you know,

322
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:45,359
Speaker 2: the only way to protect yourself against courcive control is

323
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 2: to understand it and be able to spot it and

324
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,040
Speaker 2: to know it for what it looks like and how

325
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:53,159
Speaker 2: it feels and the end, the really important message to

326
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,640
Speaker 2: send to victim survivors is you can't fix your partner,

327
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,920
Speaker 2: They have to fix themselves. Don't hang in in a

328
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,399
Speaker 2: dangerous situation for you or for your kids in the

329
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,080
Speaker 2: hope that your partner is going to magically be fixed

330
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,639
Speaker 2: or changed just through the power of your love. It

331
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,480
Speaker 2: would be beautiful if that was the case. But unless

332
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,800
Speaker 2: they are absolutely genuinely engaged in the process of change,

333
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,879
Speaker 2: and even if they are, it's not your responsibility to

334
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,280
Speaker 2: live in harm to wait for that change to occur.

335
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:30,560
Speaker 3: In summary, if you know somebody, be a safe person

336
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,920
Speaker 3: for them, Be a trusted and safe person for them

337
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,600
Speaker 3: to talk to, and hopefully one day they'll rely on

338
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,760
Speaker 3: you to do something to help them. Call the police

339
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,680
Speaker 3: if you need to, and if you're in the environment,

340
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,960
Speaker 3: get that safety plan in place and find someone that

341
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:44,760
Speaker 3: you can talk to.

342
00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:46,320
Speaker 4: That's what I've heard you say.

343
00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,000
Speaker 2: In summary, Yep, that's basically right, Jess.

344
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,159
Speaker 3: The book is called to See What You Made Me Do.

345
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,040
Speaker 3: It's by Jess Hill, Power Control and Domestic Abuse. It's

346
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,560
Speaker 3: such a hard topic to talk about. I'm so grateful

347
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,359
Speaker 3: for your generosity and sharing your wisdom and your learning

348
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:02,560
Speaker 3: with us today.

349
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,000
Speaker 4: Thank you for joining us.

350
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,720
Speaker 2: Thank you Justin, Well, I think.

351
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:08,240
Speaker 3: I need to go and have a bit of a

352
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,280
Speaker 3: laydown after that conversation. It's hard to put into words

353
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,040
Speaker 3: how affected I am by it, and I just so

354
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,840
Speaker 3: wish that Kylie could have been here. Unfortunately, our our

355
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,480
Speaker 3: family commitments meant that I couldn't have Kylie with me

356
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 3: in this conversation, which is just so sad because it's

357
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,159
Speaker 3: been such a great conversation. Nevertheless, if you've enjoyed the

358
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,920
Speaker 3: podcast for what it was, and if you have feedback

359
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,320
Speaker 3: for us, we welcome that feedback podcasts at happyfamilies dot

360
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,800
Speaker 3: com dot au. You can also jump onto Apple Podcasts

361
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,840
Speaker 3: and leave us a rating and review. Those ratings and

362
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 3: reviews help other people to find the podcast and make

363
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,240
Speaker 3: their families happier. We appreciate the work as always of

364
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,159
Speaker 3: Justin Rulan from Bridge Media for producing the podcast, and

365
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,400
Speaker 3: Craig Bruce, our executive producer. For more information about how

366
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,200
Speaker 3: to make your family happier, please visit happyfamilies dot com

367
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:55,160
Speaker 3: dot au.