1 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: used by the world's most successful people to get so 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imbo. 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: This episode is another my favorite Tip episode. The title 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: is probably pretty self explanatory. It's about my favorite tip 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: from each of the interviews I conduct. So my guest 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: day is entrepreneur and philanthropist Andrew Barnes. What you might 10 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: know Andrew Fort is being the person behind creating the 11 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: four day work week movement, whereas a founder of Perpetual Guardian, 12 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: he trialed having his two hundred plus staff do a 13 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: four day work week, so that is fit five days 14 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: worth of work into four. Andrew now consults to companies 15 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: all around the world, helping them do what he did 16 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:01,639 Speaker 1: at Perpetual Guardian. Also wrote a book about his experience 17 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: with implementing the four day work week, called the fort 18 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: Day Week, which looks at the results the firm has 19 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: achieved and how you can create a shorter week at 20 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: your organization. Now, one of my favorite tips from my 21 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: chat with Andrew. It was all about meetings and some 22 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: strategies that he has implemented to help himself and his 23 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: staff spend way less time in meetings. So let's head 24 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: over to my chat with Andrew. 25 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 2: Well, if you think about it, meetings have become an hour, 26 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: because that's broadly what Microsoft told us in the calendar 27 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 2: that it was because we booked for our blocks. There 28 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: was no reason for them to be an hour. It's 29 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 2: just that once the calendars started to dominate our lives, 30 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 2: meetings became an hour. So by saying that they can 31 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: be no more than half an hour, that does mean 32 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: a few things. You've got to have an agenda, you've 33 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 2: got to be focused. You can't just to drag on 34 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 2: for the sake of it. And by saying to people, 35 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 2: if it's not relevant, don't attend, it stops that mass 36 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 2: meeting where broadly everybody shows up, nobody says anything, and 37 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:18,119 Speaker 2: nobody really gets anything out of it. Now you may think, well, 38 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 2: that's a very small thing. When Microsoft in Japan introduced 39 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: the four day week trial in their business, they only 40 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 2: had three rules. They had a rule that certainly had 41 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 2: to use Microsoft teams, that no meeting was more than 42 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 2: half an hour, and no more than five people in 43 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: a meeting, and their productivity went up thirty nine point 44 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 2: nine percent on that change alone. 45 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: It's interesting, isn't it, The idea of capping the number 46 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 1: of people in meetings. I remember we do a little 47 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: bit of work with Ford at Inventium, and I remember 48 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: one of the Ford employees telling me that there's a 49 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: method for calculating the cost of a meeting. So depending 50 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 1: on who they invite, depending on the salary level they're at, 51 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: they can actually add up the cost of having all 52 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 1: those people in the meeting for one hour or however 53 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: the meeting goes. And I think, what a brilliant way of, 54 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: you know, really thinking deliberately about who needs to be 55 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: in the meeting and how long should it be for 56 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: because a lot of our meeting behavior it's just automatic. 57 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 2: Is an earth it is? And that's again why the 58 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 2: you know, the four day week is doing it in 59 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,519 Speaker 2: a less scientific way, because it is saying to people, right, 60 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 2: you have a choice. You can attend that meeting, but 61 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 2: if you do, if you attend all these meetings, you 62 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 2: might not get your work done in four days. You 63 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 2: may have to work five. So how important really is 64 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 2: it now? If it is important because it's important as 65 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: to you delivering the goals that you have in your role, 66 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 2: then you'll attend it because that thing is important in 67 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: order for you to achieve the productivity outcomes that are 68 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: part of the agreed deal. So you have this interplay 69 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 2: between your productivity outcomes and the information that you require 70 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 2: and the time that you have to spend. And therefore, 71 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 2: if it isn't necessary, you don't go, and that's quite 72 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 2: a good discipline. If it was necessary, you would go. 73 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: Does that happen quite a lot or did that happen 74 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: a lot in the early days of the four day 75 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: work week where people would opt out of meetings because 76 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: I imagine now just people would keep meetings small because 77 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: that probably doesn't feel good if you invite someone to 78 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: a meeting and they decline. 79 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: Well, what actually happens here is that the way we 80 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 2: work our forwar day week is it's individual opt into 81 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 2: the policy, but it's a team based goal. So if 82 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 2: the team fails to deliver the agreed levels of productivity, 83 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: then we have the right to say, right, everybody, you're 84 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 2: working five days a week. So what happens is that 85 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: there's not just personal responsibility about how you use your time. 86 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 2: You also have to think about how I waste other 87 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 2: people's time. Because if I waste a whole pile of 88 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: people's time in my team by inviting them to a 89 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 2: meeting that they don't need to be at, and then 90 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 2: as a consequence, we don't achieve our productivity outcomes, that 91 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 2: puts everybody's four day week in jeopardy in that team. 92 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 2: And so it's two disciplines here. I'm not going to 93 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 2: waste your time, you don't waste mine, and that therefore 94 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 2: is almost self policing. Yeah. 95 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: I think that's a really interesting distinction because it's sort 96 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 1: of easy to think about, well, how do I not 97 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: waste my own time, but then thinking about how do 98 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: I not waste other people's times. Are there other behavior 99 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: changes that you noticed happened aside from inviting unnecessary people 100 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: to meetings, other things that people do differently to avoid 101 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: wasting other people's time. 102 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 2: Now, I think there's lots of you know, there are 103 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 2: really just lots of very small things. But actually, bizarrely, 104 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 2: some of the best things we've found is that the 105 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 2: cooperation between individuals between teams has absolutely improved. And also 106 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: people are very keen to be, for example, to train 107 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 2: up new people because if you bring somebody into the 108 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 2: organization previously everybody's going, oh, can't be bothered. But if 109 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 2: you don't get that person up the curve pretty quickly, 110 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 2: that in turn lowers your team productivity. So suddenly people 111 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 2: start to think about how do I make a difference 112 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 2: across the organization, how do I make a difference to 113 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 2: my team. 114 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: That is it for today's show. If you know someone 115 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: who is perhaps frustrated with how much time there spending 116 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 1: in meetings, why not share this episode with them. Maybe 117 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: there's something helpful in there for them. And thank you 118 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: if you've been spreading the word about how I work. 119 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: It's one of the best ways, the most effective ways 120 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: that this podcast has grown. So a huge thank you 121 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: if you have done that. So that is it for 122 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: today's show and I'll see you next time.