1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,399 Speaker 2: wants answers. Now. Hello, this is doctor Justin Coilson with 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 2: another Happy Families podcast, once again solo. I'm on my 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 2: last day apparently of having to what is it self isolate, 6 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 2: stay away from Kylie, missus Happy Family's wishes that she 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 2: was hearing this conversation doing this podcast. 8 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: But because she's not, and because I'm just a little 9 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: bit quaki, I'm. 10 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 2: Pretty sure I'm losing and letting go of all of 11 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 2: those symptoms of COVID, I just need to get that 12 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 2: little bit better. But once again today I'm doing this 13 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: podcast solo without Kylie, just so that we can protect 14 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 2: her and make sure that she doesn't end up feeling 15 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 2: lousy like I have. 16 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: For the last week or thereabouts. 17 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 2: Every Tuesday on the Happy Families podcast, we answer a 18 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: listener question. Our Happy Families Premium members have the opportunity 19 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: to send their questions through via the Happy Family's Premium membership, 20 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,959 Speaker 2: and I answer those questions as regular as I possibly can, 21 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 2: including Tuesdays on the pod. And today we've got one 22 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 2: that's come through from somebody who we're going to call Sue. 23 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: This is not her real name. She wanted to stay anonymous. 24 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 2: So Sue says, hey, there, justin I'm chasing a resource 25 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: that might be able to help me. I need to 26 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 2: navigate supporting a toddler to sleep. 27 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: At her dad's house. She doesn't want to go. 28 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: She's tried, but she cries for me in the night. 29 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 2: She's distressed for two or three days. When she comes home, 30 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: the three older kids are distressed. We didn't push the 31 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,279 Speaker 2: other kids. They all went when they were ready. This, however, 32 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 2: is different because dad now has a girlfriend. Help please, 33 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 2: what do I do? So Normally, if Kylie was here, 34 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: we would go backwards and forwards and share a whole 35 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: range of ideas. But in the interests of preserving my 36 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 2: voice and try to give an answer for the time 37 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 2: poor parent who just once answers. Now, if you're in 38 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: a situation where separation and divorce have occurred and the 39 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: kids are not that interested. In fact, they're reluctant, they're 40 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 2: even pushing against spending time at the other parents' house, 41 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 2: it puts you in a really difficult situation, and we 42 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: need to be sensitive here. The first thing that I 43 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 2: want to highlight is that from what we can tell. 44 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: The very best research suggests that so long as both 45 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 2: parents are safe, so long as both parents are kind 46 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 2: to the kids, so long as both parents know how 47 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 2: to do right by their children. The research seems to 48 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: suggest that kids do well by having an approximately equal 49 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 2: amount of time with each parent. Fifty to fifty share 50 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: or something close to that seems to work best. What 51 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 2: often happens instead is that we end up with Disneyland 52 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 2: dads who have all the fun times on the weekend, 53 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 2: and then we end up with mum doing all the 54 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 2: hard work during the week That doesn't seem fair. Now, obviously, 55 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,519 Speaker 2: with this particular question from Sue, that's not exactly what's 56 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 2: going on. We're talking about a toddler who's having disrupted 57 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 2: sleep and who doesn't seem to want to go to 58 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 2: her dad's, is really attached to mum and wants to 59 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 2: stay with mum. And there's a difference in that Now 60 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 2: there's a girlfriend in the picture for dad, but also 61 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 2: the three bigger kids they didn't have to go until 62 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 2: they felt ready. Now, I've had a little bit of 63 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: a browse around some of the research, and I can't 64 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: find anything that's really compelling research wise. But I have 65 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 2: this hypothesis, and that is that when our children are younger, 66 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: they really need stability, they need security, and they need predictability. 67 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 2: That routine is so important for them. And what also 68 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 2: happens with our younger children is they develop what we 69 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 2: call an attachment hierarchy. So attachment essentially is a way 70 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 2: of measuring the quality of the relationship, and kids tend 71 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,679 Speaker 2: to create an attachment hierarchy with a person at the 72 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: top of the hierarchy is the one who makes them 73 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 2: feel safest, the one who's they're the most, the one 74 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 2: who is predictable and secure for them. In the vast 75 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: majority of cases, the person at the top of the 76 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: attachment hierarchy is going to be mum, and that hierarchy 77 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 2: stays in place for the first. 78 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: Few years of a child's life. 79 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: It's so important for them to feel like the world 80 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: is safe, and Mum being at the top of that 81 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 2: hierarchy is how they create that feeling of safety. So 82 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 2: my initial response, my initial feeling here is that unless 83 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: there are court orders, unless there are issues that we 84 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: need to be mindful of here, where there is a 85 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: genuine custody agreement that can't be broken, it's generally in 86 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 2: the children's best interests to have that stability and that 87 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 2: security with their primary attachment figure. Having said that, they 88 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 2: still need to spend time with other caregivers and other 89 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 2: important adults in their lives so that they can become 90 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: familiar with them and become securely attached to them. But sleepovers, 91 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: especially for young children under the age of two or three, 92 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 2: toddler age, even under the age of four or five, 93 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 2: maybe there may be some room for some negotiation there, 94 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 2: Maybe until the child's a little bit bigger and understands 95 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 2: a little more. Maybe there's the possibility that we can 96 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 2: make the argument that for now sleepovers with little kids 97 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 2: aren't the best idea. I remember having a conversation with 98 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 2: a legal scholar in Western Australia some years ago who 99 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 2: was highlighting that in the family courts there is some 100 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 2: or at least back this was a handful of years ago, 101 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: now there is some recognition that we shouldn't be forcing 102 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: infants and toddlers and maybe even preschoolers to be having 103 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: sleepovers with the parent that don't see quite so often. 104 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 2: That we do need to let them be a certain age, 105 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 2: and of course, once new adults start coming into other 106 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: environments that only complicates it further. 107 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: So what do we do. 108 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 2: The first thing that we might do is try to 109 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: work out can we make these transitions work better? Can 110 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,559 Speaker 2: we make the sleepover work in a way that doesn't 111 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 2: cause distress to the child? Can we navigate the relationships 112 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 2: and work with our ex in such a way that 113 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 2: we become partners on this challenge rather than seeing them 114 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 2: as a problem or an enemy. That would be solution 115 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 2: number one. Solution number two would be that perhaps we 116 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: make an arrangement that for the next little while, until 117 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 2: the child is a little bit bigger, a bit more mature, 118 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 2: a bit more developmentally advanced, that we give that child 119 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 2: the security instability of being allowed to stay in their 120 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 2: own bed, in their own home, the home that they 121 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 2: spend the most time in with that attachment person figure 122 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 2: that they spend the most time with. Can we just 123 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 2: make that the stable way of moving forward now, in 124 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 2: the interests of fairness to both parents, I'd definitely rather 125 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: see the first thing happen, But developmentally that just might 126 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 2: not work, and therefore the second option might be the 127 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 2: preferable one that requires both adults to be good, to 128 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 2: be kind to be fair and to put the needs 129 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 2: of the children first. Otherwise that's not going to work. 130 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:29,559 Speaker 2: After the break, I want to share some other tips 131 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 2: and ideas about dealing with separation and divorce. We'll call 132 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 2: them the five c's of separation and divorce on the 133 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 2: Happy Families podcast. If you have more than one child, 134 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 2: there's a simple truth. They're going to fight, they're going 135 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 2: to compete, and they're going to have relationship troubles. But 136 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 2: the real secret isn't how to stop the fighting, it's 137 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 2: how to teach them kindness. The Teaching Kids' Kindness webinar 138 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 2: will help you to do just that, but also help 139 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 2: them build lifelong sibling bonds that lead to lifelong friendships. 140 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: Check out Teaching Kids Kindness at Happy families dot com 141 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 2: dot a U. It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast 142 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 2: for the time poor parent who just wants answers. 143 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: Now. Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson. Let's talk about. 144 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: These separation and divorce ideas, the ways that we can 145 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: help things to work. 146 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: Out a little bit better. 147 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 2: A little while ago, I wrote this article called the 148 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 2: Five Seas of Separation and Divorce, and what the research 149 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: seems to point to is that if we can get 150 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 2: these five seas consistent, get these five seas correct, see 151 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 2: what I did this consistent career anyway, then we can 152 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 2: help our children to thrive in spite of separation and 153 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: divorce because there's no there's no way of getting around it. 154 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: Separation and divorce take an enormous toll on children. Now 155 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that to induce any shame or guilt. 156 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 2: The reality is this stuff happens, but there are things 157 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 2: that we can do to minimize the negative impacts of this. 158 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: And I also want to highlight I know that nobody 159 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: actually gets into a relationship thinking, oh, well, if it 160 00:07:58,480 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 2: doesn't work, I can always leave. 161 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: That's not what we're getting at here. 162 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 2: But the reality is that separation and divorce are very, 163 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: very challenging for our children. So the first of the 164 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: seas that will help to make things better is the 165 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 2: sea of closeness. Closeness meaning Research has shown that parents 166 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 2: who remain near one another give their children the best 167 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 2: opportunities for success. Children who have the option of visiting 168 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,239 Speaker 2: with mum or dad most days of the week seem 169 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 2: to respond to the challenges of separation and divorce the best, 170 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 2: and some of those reasons might include just the simple 171 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 2: convenience of it. We know that kids who see their 172 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 2: parents more have generally better relationships with them than children 173 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: who rarely see their parents. They're more likely to have 174 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: easier access to their friends because they live close, and 175 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: schooling and sports or other extra activities can be much 176 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 2: more easily accommodated. The second sea of separation and divorce 177 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: is caregiving. Essentially, children thrivee when their parents are involved 178 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 2: in their lives, and most research would suggest that when 179 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 2: parents are both involved in the bathing and the helping, 180 00:08:58,040 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 2: the shopping and the support of their children, that can 181 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 2: going to do better. The third sea is conflict. Research 182 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 2: unequivocally shows that parents need to keep their children away 183 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 2: from the conflict that's associated with their breakup. For a child, 184 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 2: when they see their parents fight, it's really, really scary, 185 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 2: and there's no doubt at all that kids who feel 186 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 2: torn between parents are usually going to be the ones 187 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 2: who are the absolute worst of high conflict exacerbates the 188 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 2: emotion of distress that kids feel, and it leads. 189 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: To poor psychological adjustment. The next one is change. 190 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 2: Kids do best when their lives are stable, so minimizing 191 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: change and the final one is cash. The more equal 192 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: that cash distribution is between homes, the easier it is 193 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 2: for kids to feel like their standard of living doesn't 194 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: change and to like being at one house just as 195 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 2: much as the other house. 196 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 1: So those are the. 197 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 2: Things that I would add to the question that came 198 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 2: through from Sue in answering that idea of how are 199 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 2: we supposed to deal with this? I know that kind 200 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 2: of gets off the topic of the sleepovers, but we 201 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 2: sort of address that in the first half. Hopefully that's 202 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 2: helpful in the interests of health and safety. I'm going 203 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 2: to wrap up this podcast now and go and rest 204 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 2: my voice again. Hopefully by tomorrow I'll be back and everything. 205 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 2: I'll be feeling fine. My week is up as of 206 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 2: tomorrow morning, and fingers crossed, we can we can get 207 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: on with our lives again. 208 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: The Happy Families. 209 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 2: Podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig 210 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 2: Bruce is our executive producer, and if you'd like more 211 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 2: and fol about making your family happier, just visit us 212 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 2: at Happy Families dot com dot au.