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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 4: I think as parents, what matters most is that we

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Speaker 4: say to our child, Okay, you're saying you don't want

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Speaker 4: to compete, or you're saying you want to quit, but

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Speaker 4: we're seeing all of this potential.

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Speaker 1: What do you want to do with this?

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Speaker 2: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 2: and dad.

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Speaker 4: Well, the Olympics are over. I wish we could play

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Speaker 4: highlights from the Olympics. It's been so inspiring to watch

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Speaker 4: sports people doing amazing things, and there's too many protections

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Speaker 4: around the commercial rights of who can play what, so

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Speaker 4: we can't play you any highlights on the podcast about

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Speaker 4: the Olympics. Hi, I'm justin by the way. I'm here

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Speaker 4: with Kylie. We're the parents of six kids. I'm the

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Speaker 4: founder of Happy Families dot com, dot you, and the

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Speaker 4: author of six books about raising happy families. Everyone's been

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Speaker 4: so sports focused. How have you enjoyed the Olympics? Missus

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Speaker 4: Happy Families.

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Speaker 2: You're hilarious. Anybody who knows me knows that I am

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Speaker 2: not particularly sport driven at all, but a few times

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Speaker 2: I've found myself down in the TV room with you,

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Speaker 2: every time that I could spend some time with you, every.

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Speaker 4: Time you walked into the living room, like, oh, Kylie's

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Speaker 4: come to watch the Olympics, Like I need to photograph

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Speaker 4: and frame this moment.

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Speaker 2: But one event I just loved was the rock climbing.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, that was.

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Speaker 2: Like Spider Man.

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Speaker 1: It was incredible, wasn't it.

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Speaker 2: In five and a half seconds they had scaled four stories.

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Speaker 1: It's like they're literally running up these walls. The strength,

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Speaker 1: the oh wow, and.

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Speaker 2: The difference between those who scaled it quickly and then

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Speaker 2: a minute slip and that cost them three, four or

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Speaker 2: five seconds.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, cost them a place costomer Metal. Those rock climbs.

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Speaker 4: That's a brand new sport at the Olympics.

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Speaker 1: I loved, you know.

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Speaker 4: What I was also I thought about was just there's

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Speaker 4: all of these I guess you'd call them fringe sports.

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Speaker 4: There are a couple of big sports like soccer and basketball,

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Speaker 4: and there's these global sports, but a lot of the

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Speaker 4: sports that you see at the Olympics, like how many

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Speaker 4: people really go and lift weight? How many people are

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Speaker 4: really out there doing high level gymnastics or are even surfing?

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Speaker 4: I know a lot of people surf but competitively surfing

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Speaker 4: or bmx A skateboarding, And yet the Olympics brings it

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Speaker 4: all together and we see this incredible celebration of sporting

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Speaker 4: and athletic excellence, the ping pong.

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Speaker 2: I did see a headline that a thirteen year old

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Speaker 2: won the skateboarding. Yeah, skateboarding, Like when did skateboarding become

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Speaker 2: an Olympic thing?

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Speaker 1: Just become on this this Olympic.

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Speaker 2: I don't believe thirteen years of age, but.

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Speaker 1: It's such a spectacle.

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Speaker 4: You didn't mention how much you enjoyed sitting beside me

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Speaker 4: watching the cyclists on the velodrome.

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Speaker 2: My honey, that's the only reason I even have snippets

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Speaker 2: of the Olympics to watch. It was just so I

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Speaker 2: could be next to you.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so did you enjoy the cycling?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 1: That is so harsh.

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Speaker 4: What about what about when the men's pursuit cyclists came

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Speaker 4: when he was handed by it hurts seventy selimeters and

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Speaker 4: nowur face planning on the velodrome nose lips chinned.

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Speaker 2: I mean these guys they're literally riding at like seventy

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Speaker 2: k's an hour. They not even looking where they're going.

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Speaker 1: Extraordinary they're looking down.

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Speaker 2: At the ground and there's four of them and they've

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Speaker 2: got like ten centimeters between each of them.

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Speaker 1: Anything else sane? It is? Anything else stand out here

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Speaker 1: from the Olympics.

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Speaker 2: Before we move on, there's a couple of things going

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Speaker 2: around on Facebook which have really grabbed my attention. The

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Speaker 2: first one was pink offering to pay a fine for

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Speaker 2: the Norwegian beach handball team right because they didn't wear

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Speaker 2: the uniform designated uniform. Do you know what the designated

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Speaker 2: uniform is?

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Speaker 1: They've got a web bikini bottoms.

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Speaker 2: They have to wear bikini bottoms. Can I read to

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Speaker 2: you what is in the rule book?

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Speaker 1: Sure? I've been, really I have.

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Speaker 2: I was riding about this International Handball Federation rules state

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Speaker 2: female athletes must wear bikini bottoms and that these must

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Speaker 2: have a close fit be cut on an upward angle.

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Speaker 1: Nobody wants to have a baggie fit with a bikini.

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Speaker 1: Let's be honest.

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Speaker 2: Well, the cut needs to be on an upward angle

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Speaker 2: towards the top of the leg and the side depth

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Speaker 2: of no more than ten centimeters.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're the rules, that are the official That is the.

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Speaker 2: Official rules, and one of the posts, but a friend

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Speaker 2: actually posted and it's really highlighted to me just how

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Speaker 2: I'm going to.

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Speaker 1: Use the word sexist.

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Speaker 2: This is the difference in the uniforms that males and

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Speaker 2: females wear for the same sports. Yeah, yeah, is incredible.

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Speaker 1: It's funny you say that.

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Speaker 4: I noticed the gymnastics, Like, the men are up there

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Speaker 4: and they're wearing it's almost like track pants, but they're

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Speaker 4: not tracksuit pants, but there's something like that. They're wearing

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Speaker 4: a single at top and then these long trackie decks

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Speaker 4: sort of looking things. I think they're a bit tighter

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Speaker 4: than tracksuit pants, but they're not.

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Speaker 1: They're not. They're not leotards that show a whole lot.

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Speaker 2: But the volleyball team women, yea, like those things go

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Speaker 2: up their bums.

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Speaker 1: Have we talked to our kids about this? Have you

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Speaker 1: had a conversation at this point?

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Speaker 4: I reckon this is a conversation we need to have

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Speaker 4: with our girls around the dinner table, around the unequal

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Speaker 4: expectations of males versus females, just in terms of what

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Speaker 4: they wear when they're playing sport.

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Speaker 2: These handball players, they just were wearing black pants are

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Speaker 2: still ridiculously fitted. Yeah, yeah, but they didn't want their

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Speaker 2: bums hanging out. They got fined, caught, and they got fined.

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Speaker 2: And the article that kind of brought it to the

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Speaker 2: floor had pictures of men and women doing the same

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Speaker 2: sports and just the clothing that they were wearing. And

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Speaker 2: it was a male who wrote it. And he just

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Speaker 2: acknowledged that he has never done any of his best

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Speaker 2: work with a wedgie.

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Speaker 4: I've never done the best work of my life while

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Speaker 4: I've been wearing bikini bottoms.

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Speaker 1: Yes, parispidos, that's right.

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Speaker 2: But he made some really good points, and he said

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Speaker 2: it would seem cheaper to supply women volleyball players with

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Speaker 2: adult sized shorts rather than refill the sandpit each morning,

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Speaker 2: because we all know where most of that sand ends up.

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Speaker 2: Like unbelievable, I think you know. And he goes on

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Speaker 2: and he just talks about the fact that the rule

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Speaker 2: books enforced women to wear next to nothing is because

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Speaker 2: their sports aren't as entertaining as a man's. That it's

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Speaker 2: not enough to see a woman excel without her having

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Speaker 2: to show her body to keep everybody entertained.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Wow, And he just said, when has a skill that's

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Speaker 2: better than yours not been enough to keep you wanting

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Speaker 2: to see more?

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Speaker 4: Well, we will post the link to that article in

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Speaker 4: our show notes, and anyone who has kids, male or female,

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Speaker 4: who are old enough for a conversation about the differences

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Speaker 4: between guys and girls and expectations that society puts on them,

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Speaker 4: we will share that link. And I reckon that's going

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Speaker 4: to provoke some really interesting conversations in living rooms and

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Speaker 4: kitchens over the next couple of nights for families around

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Speaker 4: Australia and wherever it is that you're listening to the podcasts.

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Speaker 2: I just want to salute the Norwegian team. I just

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Speaker 2: think it's wonderful that they were willing to just stand

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Speaker 2: up for what they felt was right.

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Speaker 4: I can't believe that they got fined in twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 4: Unbelievable and that the rules exist.

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Speaker 1: That's phenomenal.

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Speaker 4: This is not what we were supposed to be talking

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Speaker 4: about today, but you've taken us on this really important conversation.

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Speaker 4: When we come back after the break, we're going to

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Speaker 4: have a chat with you about the idea that we

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Speaker 4: should be pushing our kids to excel because the Olympics

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Speaker 4: have kind of created this momentum and motivation, as they

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Speaker 4: always do for so many families.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're really good at this or you're really.

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Speaker 4: Inspired by that, Let's get you involved, Let's get you

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Speaker 4: going with sport. We'll talk about how parents can get

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Speaker 4: the balance right with their kids and their sporting adventures

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Speaker 4: and aspirations.

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Speaker 1: In just a second, it's their Happy Families.

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Speaker 3: Podcap for a happier family. Try a Happy Families membership,

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Speaker 3: because a happy family doesn't just happen. Details at happy

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Speaker 3: families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for a time

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Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now. And we have

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Speaker 2: been talking about some of the highlights and not so

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Speaker 2: good things that have come out of the Olympic.

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Speaker 4: You've just turned it from a highlights conversation into a rant,

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Speaker 4: really bet, a well deserved and completely justifiable rant, really

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Speaker 4: important conversation.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk about that with our kids.

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Speaker 2: Well, we've obviously talked about some of the things that

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Speaker 2: have come out of the Olympics, but I think that

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Speaker 2: is really important that we talk about, you know, parents

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Speaker 2: in general and what they have gone through to help

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Speaker 2: their children get to where they are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the athletes are extraordinary, but the families that are

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Speaker 1: behind them so.

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Speaker 2: Much sacrifice, it's not just the person that you see

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Speaker 2: on the screen that has sacrificed. There is so much

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Speaker 2: going on behind, and parents of athletes have given sometimes

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Speaker 2: their entire lives so much.

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Speaker 1: So much of what you're saying reminds me.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to just google it now and see if

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Speaker 4: I can find it. Just before the Olympics, Ash BARTI.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was that great tribute that she gave to

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Speaker 2: After Wimbledon.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Jolena Dokitch was in commentary and she talked about

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Speaker 4: so the context here. Jolena Dokich ended up being the

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Speaker 4: number four women's tennis player in the world, millions of

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Speaker 4: dollars in prize money, tremendously successful, but on the sidelines

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Speaker 4: at every event she had a man. I think I

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Speaker 4: think that I can safely say he was abusive. Her dad,

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Speaker 4: Dmir Dokitch, was so volatile, so angry, so abusive and aggressive,

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Speaker 4: and it had to play a tremendous impact on her

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Speaker 4: subsequent retirement from tennis and her mental health.

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Speaker 1: But she's been known to have.

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Speaker 4: Had tremendous challenges all kinds of ways that seemed to

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Speaker 4: go back to the way her dad pushed her and

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Speaker 4: pushed her and pushed her and pushed her for excellence

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Speaker 4: so that she could be the best in the world.

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Speaker 4: And after Wimbledon and I've got it just here, Yolanda

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Speaker 4: Dookitch made this beautiful tribute to ash Barty's family after

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Speaker 4: Barty's success on the court.

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Speaker 1: Now, I just want to.

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Speaker 5: Get this out before I fall apart, so give me

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Speaker 5: fifteen seconds. I want to give a shout out to

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Speaker 5: her parents.

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Speaker 2: Obviously Robert and Josey.

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Speaker 5: Because people underestimate the importance of family. She talks about

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Speaker 5: that all the time. As someone who didn't have that support,

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Speaker 5: it is so important. This will set an example for

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Speaker 5: parents in Australia and around the world, not how just

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Speaker 5: to raise, not how to raise a champion, but a

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Speaker 5: genuinely wonderful human being. This is how you support them.

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Speaker 5: You don't pressure them, you're there for them, and this

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Speaker 5: is why she's there.

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Speaker 1: So a big shout out to them.

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Speaker 2: Well done.

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Speaker 1: I'm almost in tears.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so impactful from somebody who's been through it.

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Speaker 2: I just raised such a really important conver how much

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Speaker 2: pushing do we give our children. You look at the

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Speaker 2: things that she was able to achieve in her life

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Speaker 2: as a result of her dad's insistence and push.

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Speaker 1: And at what cost?

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Speaker 2: That's a world champion, But at what costs that's exactly right.

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Speaker 2: Did she find fulfillment and happiness in her life? What

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Speaker 2: was her relationship like with her parents in general?

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Speaker 4: So the end of it, let's talk briefly about what

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Speaker 4: we do with our kids when they seem to have

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Speaker 4: a knack for a particular sport or whatever their pastime

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Speaker 4: or passion might be. Do we push hard or do

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Speaker 4: we step back and just support them based on what

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Speaker 4: they want? Because so many parents get so caught up

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Speaker 4: in it and they see the progress that their kids

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Speaker 4: are making, they're like, but you could you can you

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Speaker 4: just dream?

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Speaker 1: Come on, let's do this.

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Speaker 4: The very best research is consistently telling us that it's

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Speaker 4: going to be unhelpful if the child is not autonomously motivated.

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Speaker 4: That is, if they're not choosing it. They may still

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Speaker 4: be able to be the best in the world, but

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Speaker 4: that may not be the best thing for them in

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Speaker 4: the world.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting. I think as parents, you know, we look

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Speaker 2: at our children's potential and we see what they can achieve,

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Speaker 2: and we want so much for them to reach it.

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Speaker 2: But I think you've just touched on it so beautifully.

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Speaker 2: It's just this acknowledgement that unless our children are intrinsically driven,

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Speaker 2: there is so much damage that can take place.

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Speaker 4: There's also there's also an interesting tension though. I'm thinking

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Speaker 4: about our fourteen year old daughter, who plays the piano

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Speaker 4: at a like a grade four grade five level. She

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Speaker 4: hates doing exams, and for the first three exams, I

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Speaker 4: sort of held my ground and said, and they don't

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Speaker 4: like it, but we've got to help you to progress

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Speaker 4: and develop your confidence so that you can truly fall

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Speaker 4: in love with the piano. And that means doing some

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Speaker 4: stuff that you don't love. And now she's at a

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Speaker 4: point where she's about to do her grade four exams,

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Speaker 4: she's already talking about her grade five exam, and she's

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Speaker 4: learning grade six and grade seven pieces because she's fallen

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Speaker 4: in love with piano. And I didn't get all tiger parent,

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Speaker 4: but I held my ground, and.

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Speaker 1: Now she's at that level of development.

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Speaker 4: And so there's this tension where the kids are like,

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Speaker 4: but I don't want to I'd rather not and they

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Speaker 4: don't want to push themselves, and sometimes they need this

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Speaker 4: as parents to give them the nudge knowing when to

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Speaker 4: stop pushing is so tricky, and I'm not necessarily saying

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Speaker 4: I did it right. I'm just putting it out there.

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Speaker 2: No, but I think there's a difference between holding your

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Speaker 2: ground on something and insisting that she do five hours

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Speaker 2: of practice every day. For instance, We didn't go down

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Speaker 2: that road with her. It was an acknowledgment that exams

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Speaker 2: are an important part of your progress, but how you

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Speaker 2: achieve that is up to you, and we don't actually

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Speaker 2: care at the end of the day, whether you're an

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Speaker 2: A student or you're a C student. This is just

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Speaker 2: an opportunity for you to learn, to grow and to progress.

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Speaker 4: The other thing that's worth mentioning is that I did

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Speaker 4: tell her that once she got her grade I can't

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Speaker 4: remember it was four or five now I've actually forgotten.

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Speaker 4: But once she's done her grade four exams, she doesn't

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Speaker 4: have to do any more exams if she doesn't want to.

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Speaker 4: My sense is she probably will now that she's gotten

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Speaker 4: to that level and she's got that level of competence.

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Speaker 4: But I think as parents, what matters most is that

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Speaker 4: we say to our child, Okay, you're saying you don't

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Speaker 4: want to compete, or you're saying you want to quit.

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Speaker 4: But we're seeing all of this potential. What do you

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Speaker 4: want to do with this and hand it back to them.

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Speaker 4: We could say to them, is it important that you

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Speaker 4: continue to use your body? Is it important that you

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Speaker 4: continue to use these skills? And if so, how would

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Speaker 4: you like to use them? And work with them in

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Speaker 4: that direction. So all of the best research says autonomy

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Speaker 4: and also range. What I mean by autonomy is to

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Speaker 4: the extent that we can we empower them to make

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Speaker 4: their own decisions. But we when I say range, we

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Speaker 4: also say we want you to try a range of things.

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Speaker 4: We want you to have breadth, because the more breadth

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Speaker 4: you've got, the more likely it is that you're going

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Speaker 4: to do well. There's a great book on my bookshelf

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Speaker 4: right behind Us by David Epstein. It's called Range, and

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Speaker 4: he compares the narrative that you've got to get your

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Speaker 4: kids going early, like age of five or age of six,

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Speaker 4: get them into stuff, get them early specializing so that

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Speaker 4: they can excel, get ahead of the pack, and do really,

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Speaker 4: really well. The research says that that narrative, while popular,

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Speaker 4: isn't necessarily accurate, and while there are some standout examples,

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Speaker 4: most people who are doing the best in life, have

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Speaker 4: done a range of things before they've settled in the

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Speaker 4: thing that they truly love and they've autonomously chosen it.

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Speaker 2: I think as parents we just need to ask ourselves

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Speaker 2: what's our motivation for pushing our children? Why are we

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Speaker 2: doing it? Is it because we wish that we'd been

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Speaker 2: a ballerina as a kid or been a concert pianist.

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Speaker 2: Is it because we actually see that our kids have

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Speaker 2: a love and a passion for it and we want

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Speaker 2: to extend that. Or is it that we see that

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Speaker 2: they have potential and we want them to excel. All

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Speaker 2: of us just want our children to be happy, and

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Speaker 2: I think if we just keep that at the forefront.

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Speaker 4: And to fulfill their potential. So many parents want their

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Speaker 4: children to fulfill their potential.

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Speaker 2: But what is their potential as a parent? Why am

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Speaker 2: I the judge of what their potentially is?

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Speaker 4: I'm not even sure that anyone of us as adults,

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Speaker 4: as parents has ever fulfilled our potential. Potential is this

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Speaker 4: thing that's going to be a lifelong pursuit and none

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Speaker 4: of us are going to get there, I'm sure of it.

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Speaker 4: So we do put a lot of pressure on the kids.

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Speaker 4: Can we go back to what Julena Dockitch said. Sure,

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Speaker 4: Ash Barty's parents didn't put pressure on Ash. They supported

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Speaker 4: her fifteen seconds, one sentence support, don't pressure. The Happy

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Speaker 4: Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 4: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. We hope you love

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Speaker 4: the podcast too. If you do, would you please visit

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Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, leave a rating and review, let other people

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Speaker 4: can find it themselves and make their families happier. If

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Speaker 4: you'd like more information about making your family happier, you

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Speaker 4: can find a Happy Families membership at happy families dot

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Speaker 4: com DOTU. In those memberships we do q and as

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Speaker 4: we do webinars, we send you newslets.

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Speaker 1: It has tips for hacking.

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Speaker 4: Parenting and making it easier, and a whole range of

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Speaker 4: resources to support you because a happy family doesn't just happen.

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Speaker 4: All the info on our Happy Families memberships are at

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Speaker 4: happy families dot com dot au