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Speaker 1: Joining me on the line right now is doctor Stephen Roch,

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Speaker 1: Lecturer in Social Work at the College of Health and

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Speaker 1: Human Sciences at Charles Darwin University.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you, Stephen.

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Speaker 3: Good morning Katie. Thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks so much for your time.

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Speaker 1: Now, I know the federal government's obviously delivered on its

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Speaker 1: promise to abolish the cash list debit card. And will

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Speaker 1: you have done extensive research into the impact of the

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Speaker 1: cash list debit card. Talk us through what that research

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Speaker 1: has found. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Sure, Well, look, this research has been ongoing for a

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Speaker 3: few years now and it's been engaging with welfare recipients

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Speaker 3: on the cashist debit card across the country. And look,

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Speaker 3: what it's found is that it really doesn't have a

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Speaker 3: particularly strong impact on people's individual behaviors, particularly in how

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Speaker 3: they relate to drag and alcohol addictions and gambling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Right, so, because I know that sometimes the argument is

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Speaker 1: that you know, it's worked because it means that people

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Speaker 1: aren't spending their money on alcohol or on on gambling.

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Speaker 1: But Steven, have you found that, you know, if people

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Speaker 1: are going to do it, they find a way to

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Speaker 1: do it anyway.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's exactly right. Well, a range of I

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Speaker 3: guess what people call workarounds, and so I guess the

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Speaker 3: thing to remember with something like the cash Ystemic card

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Speaker 3: is that it's still a commodity. You can still purchase

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Speaker 3: goods to be sold or traded for cash with other people.

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Speaker 3: And I've been speaking with people recently across the territory

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Speaker 3: and this is this is going on every day. So

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Speaker 3: really the thing to say is that if we want

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Speaker 3: to impact people's alcohol, drug use, gambling, these kinds of

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Speaker 3: things we actually have to get. We actually have to

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Speaker 3: think about the core drivers of those just behaviors. And

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Speaker 3: we know social socioeconomic disadvantage is an issue. Things like

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Speaker 3: financial stress and secure housing, mental health challenges and a

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Speaker 3: real lack of services to help people with addictions. They're

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Speaker 3: the key drivers of these kinds of behaviors that the

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Speaker 3: cash List debit cards being trying to try to help with.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so when you look at the cash List debit

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Speaker 1: card and the Basics card, are they one in the

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Speaker 1: same or are they different?

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Speaker 2: And how do they work different?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? They are different, and the normal stories are interesting.

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Speaker 3: It's a special case really because, as you and your

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Speaker 3: listeners probably know, the Basis Card's been around for quite

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Speaker 3: some time, since two thousand and eight. Now there's some

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Speaker 3: key differences. So the Basics card quarantines fifty percent of

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Speaker 3: your payment usually, and so that means people have fifty

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Speaker 3: percent of their payment on the Basis card and fifty

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Speaker 3: percent available to turn into cash. Now, the Cashier's Derek

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Speaker 3: card that was rolled out last year in the Northern

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Speaker 3: Territory ye, and there's been around four thousand people taking

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Speaker 3: that option up. And the Cashier's debit card is more

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Speaker 3: like a bank card where you can use it at

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Speaker 3: any kind of store, online and so on, where the

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Speaker 3: Basics card you had to use it at stores that

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Speaker 3: have signed up to it. So yeah, the Cushier's de

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Speaker 3: card had more flexibility around its use, but it still

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Speaker 3: suffers from the same issues as the Basis card has

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Speaker 3: in terms of you know, it can be worked around

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Speaker 3: very easily.

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Speaker 1: And so with the abolishment of the cash List debit card,

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Speaker 1: are some people in the territory still going to be

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Speaker 1: on the Basics card.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, So we've seen the draft or the bill

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Speaker 3: that will be before Parliament and so what it's going to,

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Speaker 3: what's going to those who exit the Tasha stebit card

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Speaker 3: program will then re enter the Basics card program. And

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Speaker 3: so that's around four thousand people across the territory. And

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Speaker 3: that's a bit of a challenge for people because those

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Speaker 3: four thousand people have only recently gone onto the Cusher's

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Speaker 3: debit card with a bit of a process to redo

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Speaker 3: your financial arrangements and learn how that all works. So

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Speaker 3: that is a bit of a challenge for welfare recipients

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Speaker 3: that they have to go through which is a bit disappointing.

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Speaker 1: And doctor Roach, you know, talk us through how how

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Speaker 1: did you conduct this research? How many people did you

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Speaker 1: speak to that are on that welfare system.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So the main study that I've been a part

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Speaker 3: of since twenty eighteen, we did well over one hundred

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Speaker 3: interviews in depth interviews with both welfare recipients on compulsory

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Speaker 3: income management so Basis card or the Cushier's debit card,

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Speaker 3: all community stakeholders and key figures in CD see trial sites.

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Speaker 3: And so what the advantage of this study was really

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Speaker 3: getting to find out in depth about people's daily lives

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Speaker 3: and how the cash Is debit card interacted with their

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Speaker 3: daily lives, what it meant for buying goods, consuming goods,

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Speaker 3: how it felt to have the cash is deether card.

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Speaker 3: How it felt to see that, you know, when you

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Speaker 3: go to the store and you pull that out, and

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Speaker 3: what people say to people with the cashiers deb card,

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Speaker 3: it's a bit stigmatizing. People would get the assumptions made

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Speaker 3: about some people around their money management, or assumptions around

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Speaker 3: addictions and things like that. So so you know, we've

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Speaker 3: looked at four different sites across Australia with the Cushist

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Speaker 3: deedcard and currently I'm undertaking a study just in the

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Speaker 3: NT and we're talking to policy and welfare program managers,

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Speaker 3: social workers in the life about that CUSHS debit card

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Speaker 3: roll out as well as compulsors andcome management. One other

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Speaker 3: thing to say about the cashiers debit cards was that

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Speaker 3: there are a lot of technological issues with it for people,

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Speaker 3: a lot of problematic problems with transactions, money disappearing. They're

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Speaker 3: also really challenging for some too. You can't contact central

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Speaker 3: it anymore when you have the cash Stemic card. You

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Speaker 3: have to contact Injury, which is the company provider, and

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Speaker 3: that can be really difficult for some people. Long wait times,

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Speaker 3: the difficulties with the app lots of challenges we're hearing

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Speaker 3: about lots of challenges about I'll tell you what.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty confusing even when you sort of talk about

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Speaker 1: the cash List debit card and then you talk about

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Speaker 1: the Basics card. And I know that we've spoken a

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Speaker 1: bit earlier this morning as well about for some people,

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Speaker 1: you know, according to just Enterprice and we've spoken to her,

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Speaker 1: for some people what it meant being on cash List

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Speaker 1: debit card was that, you know, for want of a

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Speaker 1: better word, they wouldn't be humbugged for money from family

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Speaker 1: members and things like that. Did that come much into

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Speaker 1: play in the research that you need.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that comes up. So, I mean there's there's some

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Speaker 3: things to say around around that. So our research has

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Speaker 3: found that both forms of compulsion and management, the Basis

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Speaker 3: card and the Cash's debit card do work for some people.

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Speaker 3: And so we argue for a voluntary for it to

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Speaker 3: be provided in a voluntary capacity, right because some people

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Speaker 3: do do like setting up say their rental payments, utility

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Speaker 3: payments and other kinds of things that are direct deductions

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Speaker 3: from the Basis card of the Cash's debit card and

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Speaker 3: that and that can minimize a little bit of humbugging

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Speaker 3: and things like that that will occur, But I guess

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Speaker 3: the thing to say is that that hasn't really I

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Speaker 3: haven't really seen much of an observable change and that

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Speaker 3: kind of that kind of behavior because Natasha Staver come

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Speaker 3: on the basis card are still a commodity that people

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Speaker 3: want and will always seek.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how fascinating.

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Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting to have a discussion with

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Speaker 1: you about this this morning, and you know, really interesting

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Speaker 1: to look at it and look at the research that

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Speaker 1: you have done over what sounds as though it's quite

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Speaker 1: an extensive period of time. So we really appreciate your

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Speaker 1: time this morning, Doctor Stephen Roach, Lecturer in Social Work

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Speaker 1: at the College of Health and Human Sciences with Charles

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Speaker 1: Dalwen University.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Katie, thank you.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk to you again soon