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Speaker 1: Already and this is this is the Daily Ars.

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Speaker 2: This is the Daily ohs oh, now it makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday,

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Speaker 3: the fourteenth of November. I'm emma, I'm Billy. Thirteen and

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Speaker 3: a half. That's the average age at which Australian girls

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Speaker 3: watch porn for the first time. In twenty eighteen, that

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Speaker 3: figure was two years older. According to a new report

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Speaker 3: on the impact of pornography on young people from the

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Speaker 3: national violence prevention organization our Watch, they surveyed nearly one

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Speaker 3: thousand young people aged fourteen to twenty and found that

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Speaker 3: nearly three quarters of respondents said porn is degrading to

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Speaker 3: women and that it shows aggression and violence against women.

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Speaker 3: A third of respondents said they use porn to educate

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Speaker 3: themselves about sex. So does it matter and should we care? Well?

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Speaker 3: Our Watch worn's online porn can negatively affect young people's

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Speaker 3: attitudes towards gender, sex and relationships, and it can lead

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Speaker 3: to violence. To talk me through these findings, I'm speaking

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Speaker 3: with Patti Kinnersley, the CEO of Outwatch. Patty, Welcome to

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Speaker 3: the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Hi Emma, thanks very much for having me on board.

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Speaker 3: We're talking today about a report from your organization, the

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Speaker 3: national violence prevention organization our Watch. Before we take a

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Speaker 3: closer look at some of the learnings from this report, though,

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Speaker 3: can you describe sort of more broadly, the purpose of

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Speaker 3: this report, why it exists, how you collate this data,

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Speaker 3: who you speak to.

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Speaker 1: Yes. Thanks. We have a part of our organization that

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Speaker 1: speaks directly to young people. It's called the Line, and

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Speaker 1: it's about sex, dating, consent, healthy relationships, and so forth.

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Speaker 1: Because we know that young people need access to accurate

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Speaker 1: information as they're developing relationships. So we want to make

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Speaker 1: sure that the conversations we have with young people are accurate,

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Speaker 1: that their voices are coming to light in the conversation,

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Speaker 1: that we're not just making assumptions, and so that's a

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Speaker 1: really important reason to survey. The other reason is that

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Speaker 1: we know that the impact of the online environment, and

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Speaker 1: particularly porn, of which ninety percent is sexualized, violence against

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Speaker 1: women is having a real impact on both young men

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Speaker 1: and young women, but particularly the relationship between young men's

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Speaker 1: attitudes about women and entering into the real world into

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Speaker 1: violence against women. And so this report just gives us

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Speaker 1: another way to gather data to share with the community.

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Speaker 1: So that we can keep our eye on the ball,

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Speaker 1: which is the online environment is big, it's having an

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Speaker 1: influence on young people, it's crossing into the real world,

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Speaker 1: and adults and people in leadership roles need to pay

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Speaker 1: attention and take some action.

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Speaker 3: That ninety percent figure is quite staggering. So I suppose

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Speaker 3: these findings suggest, rather than there being some porn that

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Speaker 3: is negatively inflam and seeing young people, the idea is

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Speaker 3: that most porn is having a negative impact. Is that correct?

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Speaker 1: Yes, Look, some young people say that they find pornography positive,

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Speaker 1: for example LGBTIQA plus young people and people with disabilities,

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Speaker 1: but overwhelmingly the people we young people we surveyed who

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Speaker 1: actually We've also discovered that most young people are now

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Speaker 1: accessing pornography at by the age of thirteen or around

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Speaker 1: the age of thirteen, which is quite young, and most

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Speaker 1: found it degrading and violent towards women, and that whilst

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Speaker 1: many were accessing the online environment to understand and have

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Speaker 1: their queer res ants at about sex and relationships, most

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Speaker 1: didn't feel like that was the best place to do that,

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Speaker 1: particularly because a lot of pornography demonstrates women are submissive

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Speaker 1: and men in controlling and dominating positions. So we know

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Speaker 1: that the data tells us that men who hold attitudes

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Speaker 1: towards women that are disrespectful more likely to perpetrate violence

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Speaker 1: against women in the real world. And so this data

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Speaker 1: is really demonstrating to us that whilst young people are

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Speaker 1: going online to learn about sex and dating and relationships

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Speaker 1: because they're curious and they need to understand and they

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Speaker 1: want to learn, it is having a negative impact on

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Speaker 1: many young people and it's something that needs our attention.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes the conversation around pornography can center on teenage boys.

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Speaker 3: But something that really stood out in this report to

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Speaker 3: me is the average age at which girls are first

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Speaker 3: viewing pornography, which has dropped by two years since twenty

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Speaker 3: eighteen to thirteen point six on average. Can you tell

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Speaker 3: me a little bit about young girls and their relationship

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Speaker 3: with pornography how that's changed over time.

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Speaker 1: Firstly, yep, Pornography has become increasingly accessible and widespread and normalized,

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Speaker 1: and so young women are feeling pressure to watch porn

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Speaker 1: from their friends or partners, and many do see porn unintentionally.

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Speaker 1: It's important to note not everybody goes and seeks out porn.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes expeed to them on their feeds or what have.

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Speaker 1: The second thing is that young women, like young men,

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Speaker 1: are curious and seeking out porn to answer some of

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Speaker 1: their questions about sex and dating and relationships. One of

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Speaker 1: the really challenging things here is that pornography has normalized

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Speaker 1: choking or strangulation during sex. There is no safe way

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Speaker 1: to do strangulation in sex, and nearly half of people

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Speaker 1: between eight and thirty five have identified that they have

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Speaker 1: been choked during sex in a sexual experience, which is

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Speaker 1: really scary and kind of does move that notion particularly.

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Speaker 1: I think that older people have that pornography is just

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Speaker 1: make believe and it's not a problem for young people.

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Speaker 1: As you know, the online environment is not separate to

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Speaker 1: the real world, you know, and whilst people say, oh,

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Speaker 1: they just need to hop offline, we know that that's

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Speaker 1: not realistic. What people are learning and seeing online, particularly

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Speaker 1: in pornography, which is so disrespectful and degrading of women,

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Speaker 1: is crossing into their relationships.

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Speaker 3: So the younger you are when you first start consuming porn,

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Speaker 3: the bigger the concern in terms of how that informs

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Speaker 3: your attitudes to sex and relationships.

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Speaker 1: You're one hundred percent correct and a health reporting New

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Speaker 1: South Wales found that exposure to violent pornography was one

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Speaker 1: of the foremost common factors behind harmful sexual behaviors in adolescence,

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Speaker 1: so we know it is having a real impact on people.

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Speaker 3: You've touched on this a little bit already, but it's

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Speaker 3: hard to separate this conversation from social media. A lot

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Speaker 3: of headlines and talk and analysis at the minute about

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Speaker 3: social media and young people's access to it. I want

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Speaker 3: to learn a little bit more about that accidental interaction

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Speaker 3: with pornography that you mentioned. How prevalent is that.

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Speaker 1: When you think about young people spending up to forty

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Speaker 1: percent of their day online, if they're being barraged with

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Speaker 1: content that is disrespectful and violent towards women, and that

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Speaker 1: starts to normalize. We're now seeing that one in three

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Speaker 1: eighteen and nineteen year olds have experienced violence in their

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Speaker 1: intimate partner relationships over the last year. So it's not

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Speaker 1: surprising though that if that's what people see as normalized,

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Speaker 1: then that's playing out in their relationships.

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Speaker 3: What does our watch make of this plan to ban

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Speaker 3: under sixteen year olds from social media If we're talking

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Speaker 3: about thirteen year olds watching porn, some of them coming

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Speaker 3: across it on socials. If we take that out of

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Speaker 3: the equation, does that solve the problem? I mean, I

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Speaker 3: think I know the answer, but I'd love to hear

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Speaker 3: your perspective.

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Speaker 1: I think what's really important in any important change that

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Speaker 1: we need to make at a community level is that

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Speaker 1: it needs a whole range of strategies to all working

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Speaker 1: together to work. So I think legislation about limiting access

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Speaker 1: to on the online environment of violent pornography might well

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Speaker 1: be part of the puzzle. It wouldn't work on its own.

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Speaker 1: We know that young people will access pornography still in

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Speaker 1: the same way that prohibition of anything doesn't actually work.

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Speaker 1: People will find their way around it, but it might

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Speaker 1: be a positive part of the puzzle. What I would

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Speaker 1: say is that young people are smart. They always have

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Speaker 1: been smart, always will be smart, and if we give

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Speaker 1: them the tools themselves to be able to critique pornography,

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Speaker 1: they will find their way through it. But it's not

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Speaker 1: only the legislation, or it's not only talking to young

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Speaker 1: people directly. It is also that we need to be

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Speaker 1: talking about respect for relationships and respect for relationships education

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Speaker 1: right through a young person's life. So there's a whole

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Speaker 1: of school approach to respect for relationships education that we

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Speaker 1: want every school to be rolling out in its entirety,

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Speaker 1: but parents can also be modeling for young people with

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Speaker 1: healthy relationships look like right from the very early ages,

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Speaker 1: and it needs to be age appropriate of course, So

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Speaker 1: you might talk to your very little person about if

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Speaker 1: you don't want that person to hug you, you don't

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Speaker 1: have to, and you should ask somebody before you give

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Speaker 1: them a hug. So it's age appropriate all the way

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Speaker 1: through to what does ongoing consent look like for you

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Speaker 1: in a sexual relationship?

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Speaker 3: Do you think Australian schools are ready and armed with

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Speaker 3: the tools they need to have those conversations? Obviously a

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Speaker 3: lot of gray, a lot of nuance when we're talking

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Speaker 3: about people growing up and through that adolescence being able

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Speaker 3: to see porn because we know they'll watch it, but

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Speaker 3: identify that line of what is and isn't okay.

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Speaker 1: I think schools have a lot of the tools at

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Speaker 1: their disposal, and schools are under a lot of pressure

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Speaker 1: to do a lot of things. But we can see

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Speaker 1: the importance of this issue in healthy relationships and consent

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Speaker 1: as people move into adult life and there's sexual assault

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Speaker 1: and sexual harassment happening in universities. We've got legislation now

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Speaker 1: in place about workplaces and sexual assault and sexual harassment,

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Speaker 1: so it is one of the most important settings we

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Speaker 1: have to be talking to young people. In education. Some

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Speaker 1: schools are doing it really well, others are on the journey.

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Speaker 1: One of the key issues though, is that adults themselves

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Speaker 1: who are teachers need to do some of their homework

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Speaker 1: themselves about what does pornography look like, how to speak

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Speaker 1: about it, how to speak to young people. They need

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Speaker 1: to be comfortable the content themselves so that they can

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Speaker 1: have comfortable conversations with young people.

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Speaker 3: We'll be right back with the rest of today's deep dive,

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Speaker 3: but first here's a word from our sponsors. Young people,

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Speaker 3: as you said, aren't going to stop watching porn, So

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Speaker 3: what do you want them to know about what they're consuming?

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Speaker 3: If there was one big attitude shift that you could

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Speaker 3: waive a magic wand and see happen overnight, what should

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Speaker 3: they know.

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Speaker 1: Look, knowing that young people spend only half of their

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Speaker 1: day online and the real world and the online world

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Speaker 1: are pretty connected, we need to talk to young people

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Speaker 1: where they're at, and so we run a campaign called

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Speaker 1: the Line, which is for young people, and it's on TikTok, Instagram,

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Speaker 1: Snapchat and Facebook for the old young people that talks

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Speaker 1: about healthy relationships, what consent looks like, what is normal relationships?

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Speaker 1: What is violent? And so I would just say to

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Speaker 1: young people to not only look at the line and

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Speaker 1: other resources the e Safet Commission, for example, to be

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Speaker 1: really checking what is realistic and what is fantasy, but

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Speaker 1: also lifting their eyes and having a look at what

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Speaker 1: a healthy relationships look like. In the adults, they know

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Speaker 1: what are they seeing in workplaces when they first go

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Speaker 1: to work, what are they seeing in school, so they

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Speaker 1: can put the online environment in context with the broader

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Speaker 1: environment that they live in.

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Speaker 3: Also, another big dialogue is happening around the national domestic

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Speaker 3: violence crisis. Do you think that there is enough attention

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Speaker 3: being paid to young people and pornography when it comes

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Speaker 3: to thinking about prevention measures when it comes to understanding

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Speaker 3: young men and violent behaviors.

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Speaker 1: Look, you're right to connect the two. This year, already

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Speaker 1: sixty five women have been murdered allegedly at the hands

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Speaker 1: of men. And we know that violence against women, all

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Speaker 1: violence against women is underpinned by disrespect and rigid gender

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Speaker 1: stereotypes and sexism. Obviously people are seeing that online. I

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Speaker 1: think that the work going on across the country Free

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Speaker 1: absolutely needs to take more attention of young men and

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Speaker 1: how young men are learning and how they're feeling about

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Speaker 1: the conversation. And I think that people have also known that,

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Speaker 1: but the online environment has perhaps snuck up on everybody,

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Speaker 1: and so we now need to be really figuring out

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Speaker 1: how to talk to young men where they are, which

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Speaker 1: is online, but they're not Also, they're not always only online.

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Speaker 1: They also live in the real world and you know,

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Speaker 1: in their music, in their sport, in their faith, in

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Speaker 1: their work that they do after school and in their school.

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Speaker 1: So it is a matter of keep talking to people,

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Speaker 1: keep listening to young people about what they need, and

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Speaker 1: then building new programs who we need them.

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Speaker 3: Is there a world where we can teach young people

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Speaker 3: about sex positivity and learning about themselves, their sexuality and

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Speaker 3: their bodies and that coexisting with the world of online

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Speaker 3: pornography or do we need to reset I.

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Speaker 1: Think both things are true. There is absolutely a world

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Speaker 1: where young people like I think the pendulum is a

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Speaker 1: bit out of order at the moment. You know, the

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Speaker 1: online environments, it's having a big impact on people but

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Speaker 1: young people are smart, they will figure this out. We

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Speaker 1: need to trust them, We need to give them more information,

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Speaker 1: we need to listen to them more. Prohibition has not

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Speaker 1: worked in anything, but we are able to reduce the

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Speaker 1: harm of anything that is harmful with education, legislation and

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Speaker 1: trust and communications. Now, whether that's cars still have the

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Speaker 1: ability to drive fast, but we've learned how to put

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Speaker 1: a whole range of supports around that. You know, young

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Speaker 1: people have to do one hundred and twenty hours before

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Speaker 1: they get their peeplates. You know, there's better breaks, better cars,

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Speaker 1: all of those sorts of things. So that's talking to people,

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Speaker 1: training them, and putting legislation in place. So we have

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Speaker 1: to find a way for both to exist.

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Speaker 3: And last but not least, Patty, where can our listeners

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Speaker 3: go to find some of these resources if they'd like

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Speaker 3: to learn a bit more?

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Speaker 1: Great the line which is just the line at our

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Speaker 1: watch dot org. Are you and there's all sorts of

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Speaker 1: resources on there, and the e Safety Commission also has

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Speaker 1: resources for both young people and parents as well.

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Speaker 3: Brilliant. We will pop some of those links in the

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Speaker 3: show notes. Patti, thank you so much for your time today.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Emma, I really appreciate having a conversation

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Speaker 1: with you.

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Speaker 2: That is all we have time for on today's episode

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Speaker 2: of The Daily Oars. Thank you so much for listening,

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Speaker 2: and while we have you, I have a quick question.

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Speaker 2: We would love some feedback. You may have noticed that

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Speaker 2: for the last two weeks we have been splitting up

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Speaker 2: the podcast to bring you the Deep Dive and the

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Speaker 2: news headlines as two separate episodes.

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Speaker 3: Our longer episodes like this one, where we analyze one

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Speaker 3: of the big stories of the week, are published in

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Speaker 3: the morning and then in the afternoons. We've been bringing

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Speaker 3: you the latest news in a short bulletin to get

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Speaker 3: you up to date for the commute home.

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Speaker 2: But we never want to make a permanent decision without

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Speaker 2: asking our audience first, so we want to know what

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Speaker 2: do you think. Do you think that we should keep

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Speaker 2: doing it that way or do you want things back

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Speaker 2: the way they were where we have the longer Deep

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Speaker 2: Dive and the headlines all in the same episode. If

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Speaker 2: you do have thoughts, feedback, vibes, anything that you want

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Speaker 2: to tell us, we would love to hear from you.

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Speaker 2: Just send us a DM on Instagram sliding to our dms.

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Speaker 2: We are at the Daily ohs and we will put

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Speaker 2: a link to that in the show notes. Thank you

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Speaker 2: so much again for listening to this episode of The

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Speaker 2: Daily os and we'll be back this afternoon, not tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back saturnoon.

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Speaker 3: Bye bye.

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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Kalkuton woman from Gadighol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.