1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: As a listener of how I work. 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 2: You've hopefully picked up a few tips on this show 3 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 2: to help you work better? 4 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: But do you want more? 5 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 2: And maybe in a book form, because let's face it, 6 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 2: books are the most awesome thing on the planet. Well, 7 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 2: now you can. In my new book, time Wise, I 8 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 2: uncover a wealth of proven strategies that anyone can use 9 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 2: to improve their productivity, work, and lifestyle. Time Wise brings 10 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 2: together all of the gems that I've learned from conversations 11 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 2: with the world's greatest thinkers, including Adam Grant, Dan Pink, 12 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 2: Mia Friedman, and Turia. 13 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: Pitt and many many others. Time Wise is launching on 14 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: July five, but you can pre order it now from 15 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: Amantha dot com. And if you pre order time Wise, 16 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: I have a couple of bonuses for you. 17 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 2: First, you'll receive an ebook that details my top twenty 18 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: favorite apps and software for being time wise with email, calendar, passwords, reading, 19 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 2: cooking ideas, and more. You will also get a complimentary 20 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: spot in a webinar that I'm running on June twenty nine, 21 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 2: where I will be sharing the tactics from time Wise 22 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 2: that I use most often, and also some bonus ones 23 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 2: that are not in the book That I Use and Love. 24 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 2: Hop onto Amantha dot Com to pre order. Now It's 25 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven. An American university student is helping to 26 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 2: organize a protest rally at school and is told to 27 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 2: visit a little coffeehouse called Cappuccino. He does, and as 28 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: the crowd falls silent in wait, and as yet undiscovered 29 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 2: protest songwriter named Tracy Chapman takes the stage. 30 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:45,119 Speaker 1: That student was. 31 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,559 Speaker 2: Brian Koppleman, who would go on to executive produce Chapman's 32 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: first album, Yes, the one with Fast Car on it. 33 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 2: But being an exec even in the music business, wasn't 34 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 2: Brian's dream. He wanted to be a writer, and so 35 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: with his best friend and co writer David Levine, Brian 36 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: holdaway in the basement to write his first screenplay, Rounders, 37 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 2: and has since written, produced, and directed a number of 38 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 2: critically acclaimed films. He's now one of the showrunners of 39 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 2: the hit TV show Billions. 40 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 1: Brian's also obsessed with how creatives do their work. 41 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: He hosts The Moment, a podcast about what makes creative 42 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 2: people tick and how they turn their inspiration into art. 43 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 2: But what about the working life of Brian The creator 44 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: of so many shows and movies that millions of people 45 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 2: all over the world have loved. We dig into what 46 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: makes Brian tick at work, covering everything from his morning 47 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: page's richel to his writing routines to becoming a producer 48 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 2: and a showrunner. My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm 49 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 2: an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy 50 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 2: Invent Him, And this is how I work, a show 51 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 2: about how to help you do your best work. Brian 52 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 2: has held a number of job titles in the movie 53 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: and TV business. 54 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 1: At any one time, he's been. 55 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: A showrunner, a screenwriter, a director, and a producer. But 56 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 2: it started with writing, writing in a basement with nobody 57 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 2: but his co writer, working on a movie called Rounders. 58 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: So what did that very first screenwriting process look like? 59 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 3: It was so hard one because I was a blocked 60 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 3: writer for so long. And what that really means is 61 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 3: I wasn't being a writer and something in me was 62 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 3: quite dissatisfied with myself, really, And so I will tell 63 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 3: you that when I finally broke through and found a 64 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 3: way to produce work, it meant so much to me. 65 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 3: You know, I'll just back up and tell you, you know, 66 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 3: I was thirty years old, twenty nine thirty. I was, 67 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 3: you know, moving along in a career that was going well, 68 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 3: but something inside me felt like it was dying. And 69 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 3: this really came to a head when Amy and I 70 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 3: had our first child, and I wanted to be the 71 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 3: kind of person who would tell his kid to chase 72 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 3: their dreams. And somewhere in me I knew I wasn't. 73 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 3: And it wasn't a commercial dream, it wasn't a market 74 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 3: center dream. It was about creating something. It was about 75 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 3: taking the risk to be some kind of an artist. 76 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 3: And I had this thought that if you allow a 77 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 3: creative death is like any other kind of death. And 78 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 3: if I allowed that creative spark to die, it would 79 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 3: become toxic and it would ooze onto the people I loved, 80 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 3: and it would become I might become bitter. I might 81 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 3: become exactly the kind of person I didn't want to be. 82 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 3: And that's sort of what drove me to do this. 83 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 3: And so to answer question, when I was finally doing 84 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 3: the work, Amy cleared out a storage space underneath our apartment, 85 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 3: a basement in New York City. The storage space was 86 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 3: a tiny little at a slop sync in it basically 87 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 3: room for one chair at a half a desk, and 88 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 3: I would sit on the floor. My partner, Dave, who 89 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 3: I do all this stuff you just named with, he 90 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 3: would type in that first one mostly, and in two 91 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 3: hours every morning we met and we wrote that script. 92 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 3: And those two hours I felt so alive during those 93 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 3: two hours of the day that it actually allowed me 94 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 3: to be much better the rest of the day. Those 95 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 3: two hours, and they were hard, right, learning to really 96 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 3: be a writer and really write a screenplay and sort 97 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 3: of approached that with an incredible rigor. It was really challenging, 98 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 3: but I felt so much like I was becoming the 99 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 3: person I wanted to be that when I would leave 100 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 3: there and then have to go to my job and 101 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 3: go to meetings, I was so much better because I 102 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 3: was able to engage. Almost like you'd gone to the gym, 103 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 3: and once you put in a really rigorous and ritualistic 104 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 3: kind of a workout routine, it kind of like sets 105 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 3: you up for the rest of the day, And that 106 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 3: set me up for the rest of the day. 107 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 2: I'm wondering, how much do you remember about what happened 108 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 2: in those two hours every day, Like, how would you start, 109 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 2: how would those first five minutes work. 110 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 3: One thing we did that turned out to be lucky. 111 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 3: I think that I would say it was a smart 112 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 3: thing to do, but really we were feeling our way 113 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 3: through it. So I don't know how much of it 114 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 3: was that we were smart about it. But we outlined 115 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 3: the script, and what that looked like was before we 116 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 3: got in that room, we were meeting, and maybe we'd 117 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 3: meet at a diner when I got off work or 118 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 3: something like that, or in a morning before I went 119 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 3: to work, when Dave got off bartending shift, and we 120 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 3: would kind of talk through what this story might be. 121 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 3: And you know, I had walked into a poker club 122 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 3: late one night and played cards and realized that was this. 123 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 3: Dave and I've been talking a writing movie, and that's 124 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 3: probably where we set it around. But we would really 125 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 3: talk about, you know what, how do we want to 126 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 3: tell this story about the New York poker underground. Who 127 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 3: were the characters. So we did a lot of work 128 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 3: ahead of time on thinking about who these characters were, 129 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 3: what they wanted, and what kind of obstacles would be 130 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 3: in their way. And so we did that work for 131 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 3: a long while and then the first day we went 132 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 3: and began turning that outline into a screenplay. We had 133 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 3: weren't meeting that very first day. We didn't meet in 134 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 3: the storage space that Amy cleaned out that first day. 135 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 3: It was Columbus Day, which is a holiday in America, 136 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 3: and we so my office was closed that day, so 137 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 3: we met in my office and that day we had 138 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 3: a yellow legal pad and we were the only people 139 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 3: in the It was big office, and we were the 140 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 3: only people there that in the whole place. And we 141 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 3: spent that day probably three hours, and we wrote the 142 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 3: first eight nine ten pages of Rounders, fairly close to 143 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 3: what it ended up being. And so then when we 144 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 3: would go into the room, we were adding on to that, 145 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 3: and we would try to write a scene or two 146 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 3: scenes a day. We would talk through We had an outline, 147 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 3: so we knew, well, this scene's supposed to sort of 148 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 3: be like this, and then we would talk to each 149 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 3: other about what the spark in the scene might be, 150 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 3: what the conflict in the scene might be. I might 151 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 3: tell Dave some story about something that happened in a 152 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 3: poker room I was at once. He would maybe tell 153 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 3: me about an argument he witnessed, and then we would 154 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 3: set to writing. And on the first one he typed 155 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 3: most of the time would I would sit on that thing, 156 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 3: but most mostly then I would stand when we were 157 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 3: actually writing, I would be standing up kind of behind them, 158 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 3: leaning forward, and we would just kind of talk out 159 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 3: the scenes to each other. And I'd say we did 160 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 3: that for four months and then had the script, and 161 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,199 Speaker 3: then I would and then the other part of it 162 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 3: is at night. You know, we would take it home 163 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 3: on floppy disks. Back then, this is nineteen ninety six, 164 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 3: ninety seven, you know, we're writing on a little computer 165 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,719 Speaker 3: with floppies, and I would take the floppy disk home 166 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 3: and put in my computer at home, my desktop computer 167 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 3: at home. I would print out those pages and I 168 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 3: would read through what we did and make little notes. 169 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 3: And then the next day maybe perhaps we would start 170 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 3: with oh, these little shifts, and then we would we 171 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 3: would move forward. And I remember David had written a 172 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 3: manuscript before and us screenplay before, so he understood better 173 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 3: than I did that the pain was worth fighting through. 174 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 3: Like maybe we'd get to an hour in and if 175 00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 3: a scene wasn't coming, I would be like, well, let's 176 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 3: pick a up here tomorrow. And he sort of taught 177 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 3: me in a way that I've kept to this day, 178 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 3: which is no, you get to the end of the scene, 179 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 3: you can fix it tomorrow. But we're going to get 180 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 3: to the end of the scene now. 181 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 2: When Brounders went into production, your screenwriting career began in 182 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 2: earnest and you've said that it also served as a 183 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 2: crash course in film school. 184 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: Can you tell me what you mean by that. 185 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 3: We were invited to be on set every day of 186 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 3: the making of the film, and that was because we 187 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 3: had kind of taken it upon ourselves to find the 188 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 3: right director for the movie, which was not in our 189 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:41,719 Speaker 3: job so portfolio at all. That's the purview of the producer, 190 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 3: but we didn't want to leave it to the fates. 191 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 3: And we were just young enough but not too young, 192 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 3: just young enough really to unders to try to do 193 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 3: it ourselves, and through a series of things we were 194 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 3: able to so in a way, since we brought the 195 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 3: director to the party, he then extended back to us 196 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 3: the invitation. And because we were expert in the story, 197 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 3: we were expert in poker in a way that nobody 198 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 3: else was, and we were around the same age as 199 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:15,719 Speaker 3: the lead actors, and so we realized we had the 200 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 3: opportunity to be on set every day we consciously decided 201 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 3: to treat it like film school, meaning we decided we 202 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 3: were going to ask questions, not willing nilly and not 203 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 3: sort of while people were trying to do their jobs. 204 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,719 Speaker 3: But if I wanted to understand what the cinematographer was 205 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 3: thinking about, I would ask at lunchtime, or I would 206 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 3: ask at the end of the day, or I would say, 207 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 3: can we have dinner. The director John Dall, who's someone 208 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 3: we work very closely with to this day. He directs 209 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 3: on both of our shows, and he's a dear friend 210 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 3: to this day. John was really great about explaining stuff 211 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 3: to us. I'm staging the scene this way because it's 212 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 3: from this point of view, and if we stage it 213 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 3: from here in the camp are here, it sort of 214 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 3: demonstrates that. And he would kind of walk us through 215 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 3: that and walk us through first principles of how to 216 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 3: think about staging and shooting a scene. And because it 217 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 3: was happening in front of us and we were a 218 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 3: part of it and questions would come to us about 219 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 3: the intention of a scene or about a line, we 220 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 3: were really a part of making that movie. But we 221 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:19,239 Speaker 3: were also getting. 222 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: Our education that that's quite unusual to be writers on 223 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: a set, Like, what sort of other insights do you 224 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,079 Speaker 2: feel like you got as a writer at that stage 225 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 2: in your career that you just wouldn't have got had 226 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 2: you not been on set every day. 227 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 3: Well, a huge one, I mean really learning how to 228 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 3: talk to actors. 229 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 2: Now. 230 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 3: I had acted in college, I had directed plays. I 231 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 3: knew a bit about that, but the time pressure of 232 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 3: a film or a television show, the stakes because of 233 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 3: how much money everybody's spending, the various egos, So learning 234 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 3: how how to manage that relationship with the artist who's 235 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 3: going to translate your work is really important. Then some 236 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 3: of that is watching. Some of that is engaging and 237 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: having it go well, or engaging and realizing you didn't 238 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 3: really know exactly what to say, or you didn't know 239 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 3: how to listen correctly, and also learning how not to 240 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 3: hold on too tight, how to if you know what 241 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 3: the scene needs to do and an actor has another 242 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 3: way to get there, knowing that you can hear the 243 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 3: actor out, and if you're willing to listen in a 244 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 3: posture of calm, genuinely not just a pie, if you're 245 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,839 Speaker 3: genuinely willing to listen for the better idea. Actors are 246 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 3: so highly attuned emotionally, that they can feel that they 247 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 3: can feel you're not defensive. And then if the better 248 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 3: idea is to steer them back to the original idea, 249 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 3: they're very willing to go there. And those are all 250 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 3: things that someone can tell you, but until you're there 251 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 3: doing it. And also you realize how much stuff you 252 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 3: can cut out, because how much stuff can just get 253 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 3: accomplished by the way an actor looks in another actor 254 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 3: you know on the page for your first screenplay. Everybody, 255 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 3: I think wants to make sure nothing is missed. I 256 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 3: want to make sure I communicate everything, and so you 257 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 3: might put too much in the scene. But when you're 258 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 3: standing there and you're looking on the monitor through the 259 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 3: camera you're watching, and you see two actors meet eyes, 260 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 3: it can almost be wordless sometimes, and that's a great 261 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 3: look I love for both characters. I love characters who 262 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 3: speak in bursts of dialogue. But I also know what 263 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 3: the limits of that are. And that can only happen 264 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 3: if you've been part of shooting and editing something. 265 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: That's been about twenty five years since you and David 266 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 2: wrote Rounders, and I'm curious what does your writing process 267 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 2: look like now, Like, what have you kept from those 268 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 2: original days in the basement to now that you guys, 269 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 2: I guess are working most actively on Billions. 270 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 3: What we've kept is that the story itself is still 271 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 3: something that we like to work out together with a 272 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 3: bigger group of people. You know, we have someone who's 273 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 3: come in and helped on both Super Pumped and Billions. 274 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 3: Beth Shackter is a woman who's become a partner helping 275 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 3: us show run both shows, and so she'll sit with us, 276 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 3: and we have a writer's staff as well. But if 277 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 3: it's an episode that David and I are writing ourselves, 278 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 3: we'll take some input from people and talk stuff through, 279 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 3: and then the two of us will talk about the 280 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 3: story a lot, and then we'll start passing documents back 281 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 3: and forth. We don't write over the screen together anymore, 282 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 3: rotating who's typing. We write separately, but together. We'll sometimes 283 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 3: be in the same room, but I'll be at my 284 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 3: desk and he'll be at his. So we'll outline an 285 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 3: episode together. We know what the story is, and then 286 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 3: we will break up the scenes in half and you know, 287 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 3: just kind of rotating them. We'll put our initials throughout, 288 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 3: like one of us will just put DLBK, DLBK, and 289 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 3: then we'll write our scenes and then we kind of rotate. 290 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 3: We'll put them into a master document, and one of 291 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 3: us will go first and rewrite the whole document, and 292 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 3: then the other person will go and rewrite the whole document, 293 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 3: and then we'll send notes back to one another. I 294 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 3: mean the You know, David's been my best friend since 295 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 3: we're fourteen fifteen years old, so we're like brothers, but 296 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 3: without any of the baggage of having been raised by 297 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 3: the same people in the same home. So it's a 298 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 3: very easy relationship in terms of our ability to communicate 299 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 3: about these matters. 300 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 2: So when you're going off to write your own pages, 301 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 2: your own parts of the scripts, can you talk me 302 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 2: through what that process looks like. 303 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 3: Yes, I and it's a bit different. Pre and post 304 00:16:55,280 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 3: pandemic took me through both. So pre pandemic, I guess 305 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 3: are two main ways. One is I love to write 306 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 3: on a couch. If I can be on a couch 307 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 3: with a laptop in my lap and my big head 308 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 3: and at home, if I'm on a couch, I don't 309 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 3: need headphones necessarily. I can have music playing on the stereo. 310 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 3: I always have to have music playing, or ninety nine 311 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 3: percent of the time I have music playing when I'm writing, 312 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 3: and I try to I have to pair the music 313 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 3: with the scene I'm writing in some way. It has 314 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 3: to it has to relate to what I'm writing, either 315 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 3: in counterpoint to it or supporting it. 316 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 2: Oh, can you give me a couple of examples of that, 317 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 2: Like how you pay music to sing? 318 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 3: Well, it's all throughout the show. I mean, it's all 319 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 3: throughout everything that we do. Like when you hear the 320 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 3: music on the show, a lot of the time, that's 321 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 3: music that was written into the script because I was 322 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 3: writing to that music. Wow, and those things are you know. 323 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 3: I guess a key example would be Tom Petty's Even 324 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 3: the Losers, like I was writing, which is a central 325 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 3: song to episode eleven of the second season of Billions, 326 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 3: And I mean I just remember writing and writing to 327 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 3: that song and then realizing that song would take us 328 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 3: through the whole episode and it had thematic unity with 329 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 3: the episode. And I would say that's constantly happening. Again, 330 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,719 Speaker 3: not every episode or every scene, but very very often 331 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 3: that's the way that that happens. And for David as well, 332 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 3: he doesn't write with music as much, but he's thinking 333 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 3: about it too, and the other way that I'll write. 334 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 3: So it's a couch. But I also really like There's 335 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 3: a restaurant in my neighborhood in New York called Red Farm, 336 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 3: and it's a Chinese restaurant and the owner just passed away, 337 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 3: but he was a dear friend and I would go 338 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 3: into the restaurant many weekends. So during the week I 339 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 3: might be on a couch on set somewhere. I always 340 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 3: have a couch at my office so that I can 341 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 3: write on it. And we have a bunch of offices 342 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 3: depending on what stages were on to shoot the shows. 343 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 3: But on weekends, which is when I do a lot 344 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 3: of the writing, especially if we're in season, I would 345 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 3: go to the Red Farm, this restaurant. I would get 346 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 3: at small booth. I would get a big pot of 347 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 3: oolong tea and I would just sit there and put 348 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 3: my headphones on and write. And you know, I write 349 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 3: in about two hour bursts, usually still, and then take 350 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 3: a walk. And you know, if it's there's a deadline, 351 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 3: perhaps I'll go to Red Farm right for a couple hours. 352 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 3: You know, I probably start at home right on the couch, 353 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 3: then feel like okay, change the scenery, go walk over 354 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 3: to Red Farm, which is just a five minute walk, 355 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 3: sit there for a couple hours, and then you know, 356 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:39,959 Speaker 3: perhaps by then that would be it for the day, 357 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 3: or I'd come back into another hour at home. And 358 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 3: the best part of it is when you're kind of 359 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 3: not aware of any of that when you're working. And 360 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 3: when I'm working and I feel hyper present and at 361 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 3: the same time barely tethered to the ground. I'm just 362 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 3: somehow existing this ether that's betwixt and between and I'm 363 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 3: hardly aware of what's happening between the music and the 364 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 3: tea and the you know, spices of the food or whatever. 365 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 3: I'm just in a different place. And obviously I can 366 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 3: do that without tea or without uh, you know, spices, 367 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 3: And that's you know, that's the that's the joy, that's 368 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 3: the kind of the the pleasure of doing this. Because 369 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 3: the story part is very hard, uh. The part of 370 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 3: outlining and breaking story and and and for me anyway 371 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 3: is hard. 372 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 2: Uh. 373 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 3: But the writing of scenes once that work has been done, 374 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 3: meaning the actual writing of the dialogue and figuring it out, 375 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 3: and that may mean changing story too as you're going. 376 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 3: That part is the part that is what makes me 377 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 3: willing to do all the other work. That's the part 378 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 3: that's the kind of even when it's very difficult, it's 379 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 3: kind of pure joy. 380 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: What makes the story part so difficult. 381 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 3: I think I'm working from different parts of my brain 382 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 3: when I'm breaking the story parts really analytical and like math, 383 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 3: and I hate math. Writing the dialogue is like painting 384 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 3: or something you know, or like playing the guitar and 385 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 3: writing a song. It's a it's it's for me. That's 386 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 3: the part that feels like I'm unleashed, whereas the other 387 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 3: part feels like if I'm doing it right, it just 388 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 3: requires so much rigor and focus. 389 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. 390 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: And so like with the I guess with that flow 391 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 2: state that you described, when you're writing dialogue working on scenes, 392 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 2: do you find it easy to just switch into that gear, 393 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 2: like when you've got your music on and you're at 394 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:54,479 Speaker 2: the restaurant or you're on a couch. 395 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: Does that flow state come to you quite quickly? 396 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 3: Yes? I mean I don't want to really say that, 397 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 3: but yes, I mean, like getting to sit down there. 398 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 3: I have bad adhd, you know, really diagnosed bad adhd, 399 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 3: and so getting to this sitting down is fucking hard. 400 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 3: For me. But once I'm doing it, then that part 401 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,479 Speaker 3: of it. If that part of it isn't going, then 402 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 3: the other parts weren't done right, then the story's fucked up. 403 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,479 Speaker 3: Or then the actual project isn't what I should be 404 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 3: working on because I'm not connected to it. But yeah, 405 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 3: the part of it where mak making characters, talk, moving 406 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,719 Speaker 3: them around a setting, imagining what's going to all that 407 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 3: stuff is pleasurable to me. It's hard, but it's pleasurable. 408 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,719 Speaker 3: And it's you don't always I mean, I would say, 409 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 3: you know, you don't always get into that level of 410 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 3: flow state that I'm describing. That's the part that that's 411 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 3: the part that makes it all worth doing. But it 412 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 3: is relative. The more I've done this, the more or 413 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 3: that it happens. And it is relatively easy to fall 414 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 3: into that space. 415 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 2: So you said getting to the couch though, that's the 416 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 2: challenging part. So what tricks have you found to get 417 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 2: yourself to the couch to start writing? 418 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 3: I mean, the morning pages are the best trick in 419 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 3: the world, right. Julia Cameron describes them in the artist's way, 420 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 3: and that's the life changer for me. I mean, that's 421 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 3: the thing I did at thirty to figure it out. 422 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 3: And it's still the thing. I mean, I still do 423 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 3: that every morning. 424 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 425 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 2: For those that are not familiar with morning pages, and 426 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 2: I must say I've experimented with them myself. Can you 427 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 2: talk about what your process for doing morning pages is. 428 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: I find some people sort of tweak it a little bit. 429 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 3: I do not. I do it exactly as Julia Cameron describes. 430 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 3: The only tweak, sorry, the only tweak is I meditate first. 431 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 3: And I asked Julia when she was on my podcast, 432 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 3: and she'd prefer if I did the pages first and 433 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 3: then meditate it. But so I do meditate first. But 434 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 3: then the next thing I do in my day is 435 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 3: I open a journal and I write three long hand 436 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 3: pages and I just do not stop my pen from moving. 437 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 3: I don't race through it, but I'm I'm keeping my 438 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 3: so I take a breath and I'm in it. I'm 439 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 3: aware of what I'm doing, but I am just allowing 440 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 3: myself to write. Any thought that comes down, I will 441 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 3: not stop moving the pen, and I don't read it over. 442 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 3: You know, if an idea comes up during it that 443 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 3: I think is useful for something, some creative project or something, 444 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 3: I'll immediately transfer it, but then I do not go 445 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 3: back to those pages, as she says, don't go back 446 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 3: for five years, or maybe never go back. And it 447 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 3: is a way to get your subconscious going. It kind 448 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 3: of I think of it as tipping my subconscious out 449 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 3: onto the page. It also gets rid of the detritus. Man, 450 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 3: it's like the I think it's like the mental equivalent 451 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 3: of drinking the water first thing in the morning and rehydrating. 452 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 3: I somehow just feel better having done it. So that 453 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 3: and meditation and also walks, like walking helps, exercising helps 454 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 3: all that stuff that just gets rid of the wanderlust 455 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 3: or whatever it is that keeps me from doing the work. 456 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 3: Books sometimes, I mean sometimes I'm picking up the guitar 457 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 3: and noodling around and putting on music and reading a book. 458 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, straightening up there looking no, I 459 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 3: don't want to paint a picture. That's impossible to attain. Like, 460 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 3: it's hard to get yourself to do the work when 461 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 3: you're someone with ADHD and your job is to produce 462 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 3: pages and television. It's like a hard for me. You know, 463 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 3: it's not hard work compared to like real backbreaking work 464 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 3: that a lot of people do, but for me. That 465 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 3: stuff's hard, but I've gotten better and better at it 466 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 3: and it's something I continue to work at. And I 467 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 3: think also having a partner where I have to deliver 468 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 3: for him helps because Dave can't hand in the script 469 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 3: until my part's done right, so I can't be the 470 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 3: person that's making our team suffer. And like when I 471 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 3: wrote the one movie that I wrote alone that we made, 472 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 3: Solitary Man with Michael Douglas, I wrote that by myself 473 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 3: and it was a much harder process. It was before 474 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 3: I meditated. That was twenty two thousand and nine. I 475 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 3: think that we made that movie and I started meditating 476 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 3: in twenty eleven. 477 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 2: So. 478 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 3: Maybe that would have helped. But that took me years 479 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 3: to write that movie, and partially partially, I think because 480 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 3: it wasn't like, well, Dave's going to have his pages 481 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 3: done Sunday, so we agreed on that, so I have 482 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 3: to get mine done Sunday too. 483 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 2: It's interesting that, yeah, using that like almost like an 484 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 2: accountability buddy, which which I really something that is a 485 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 2: lot of quite common amongst guests that I've spoken to. 486 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 2: We will be back again with Brian soon where we'll 487 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 2: be talking about where his best ideas come from and 488 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 2: how he knows whether he has an idea that's even 489 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 2: worth pursuing. And if you're looking for more tips to 490 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 2: improve the way you work, I write a short fortnightly 491 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 2: newsletter that contains three cool things that I've discovered that 492 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 2: helped me work better. You can sign up for that 493 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 2: at Howiwork dot co. That's how I Work dot COO. Now, 494 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 2: the thing that listeners would probably be most familiar with 495 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 2: in terms of your work is the show Billions. And 496 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 2: you are what is called a showrunner. And I imagine 497 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 2: that there are a lot of listeners that have no 498 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 2: idea what a showrunner is, So can you explain what 499 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 2: that is? 500 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 3: What that involves the showrunner on a television series, the 501 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 3: closest equivalent would be if someone were a director and 502 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 3: producer on a movie. So the showrunner is responsible for 503 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 3: overseeing the shooting, the creating, so the writing and the 504 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 3: shooting and the casting and the editing and the post 505 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 3: production of the show. And the showrunner is involved in 506 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 3: overseeing the marketing, you know, dealing with the marketing department 507 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 3: and approving all their great ideas. Now, we work with 508 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 3: incredible professionals who run the departments that actually do all 509 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 3: those jobs or many of those jobs that we don't 510 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 3: do personally. But we are responsible for delivering the show. 511 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 3: We're responsible for every aspect of delivering the show, and 512 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 3: that is so we hire the directors and then it's 513 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 3: our job to talk to the directors about what the 514 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 3: show should be like and answer their questions and help them. 515 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 3: And we have the final cut on the episode, so 516 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 3: the director doesn't cut, and then we do with our editors, 517 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 3: and so the showrunner is really the person or people 518 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 3: charged with safeguarding the tone, spirit of the show and 519 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 3: the physical shooting of the show. 520 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 2: Now, you mentioned research before when you're talking about rounders 521 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 2: and how you know you'd spend a lot of time 522 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 2: in poker clubs, and I think I've heard for billions 523 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 2: you hang out with real life billionaires. 524 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: I'd love to know. 525 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 2: I like, do you have a kind of a specific 526 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 2: approach that you take when you're researching to try to 527 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 2: get inside a world? 528 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 3: Well, an immersive approach for sure. Yeah. I mean it's 529 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 3: funny when someone writes about it it's hanging out with billionaires. 530 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 3: I mean it's interviewing them and embedding with them the 531 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 3: way a journalist might at times, I'm not hanging out 532 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 3: with them, like certainly in the beginning, by seven years 533 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 3: into making the TV show, there are a couple of 534 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 3: people who have achieved that kind of success who I've 535 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 3: become friendly with and I might go play sports with 536 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 3: or something like that. That said, even when I'm doing that, 537 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 3: they know and I know that I'm paying attention. I'm 538 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 3: not fully losing myself because I'm not them, I'm not 539 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 3: of them. I'm a different thing. I'm the artist. I'm 540 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 3: a writer, I'm an observer. We're spending time, but with 541 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 3: a very clear purpose, and that purpose is to understand. 542 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 3: I mean, all this goes back to curiosity, which is 543 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 3: a cornerstone of anybody who wants to write or tell 544 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 3: stories or be any kind of an artist, I think, 545 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 3: which is to have tremendous men of curiosity about your subject. 546 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 3: And so in the poker clubs, I love poker. I 547 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 3: was pretty obsessed with poker. As soon as I heard 548 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 3: these people speak though that other people are there there 549 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 3: just thinking about poker. I'm there and I'm like listening 550 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 3: to their language, you know, and I'm why do you 551 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 3: talk that way? What does that mean? How did you 552 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 3: become you? What got you here? I mean I'm immediately 553 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 3: just thinking of all those things, like how's this person 554 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 3: in this basement playing in this game now? Like what 555 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 3: what does he do when he leaves here? Like how 556 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 3: does he make peace with what just happened. I'm just 557 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 3: that's the way that I go through life. You know, 558 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 3: That's probably why I became a writer, right, And so 559 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 3: that's when you're doing the research. I mean, that's the process. 560 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 3: It's books and conversations and going to places and keeping 561 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 3: your eyes and ears open. It's basic. I think I 562 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 3: never took a journalism class, but I imagine a lot of 563 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 3: it is stuff that's taught in a. 564 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 2: Journalism Now you've been working on Billions for seven years, 565 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 2: and you're also working on Super Pumped. I want to know, 566 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 2: like where's the space for new ideas? And I guess, 567 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 2: like what I'm curious about is like, I'm sure that 568 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: you would get ideas all the time, but how do 569 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 2: you know when it's an idea that is worth pursuing 570 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 2: given that your schedule sounds quite busy? 571 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 3: Curiosity? It comes back to that, right, what keeps me 572 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 3: engaged and curious and wanting to know more? It's super 573 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 3: pumped happen because you know, we read this manuscript, this 574 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 3: book that Mike Isaac wrote, and it spoke to us. 575 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 3: It was like, we want to know everything about this 576 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 3: world and we want to and it seemed fascinating. We 577 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 3: wanted to tell it. So much of this is not intelle. 578 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 3: You eventually have to apply your intellect to the problem 579 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 3: in hand, like to prosecute the questions, but the the 580 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 3: falling in to it is not an intellectual process for 581 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 3: me anyway. It's an instinctive process. It's a tactile process. 582 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 3: It's a you know, it's it's about something that kind 583 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 3: of makes me stay up late and think about it, 584 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 3: or wake up first thing in the morning and I 585 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 3: find myself journaling about it, and I find myself sending 586 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 3: texts to Dave and you know, first thing in the morning, 587 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 3: or uh, it's not I think from the beginning, it 588 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 3: wasn't like I walked into a poker club and thought, 589 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 3: the market wants to see this. I thought, I want 590 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 3: to immerse myself in this. I want to know everything 591 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 3: about this. I want to understand these people. Oh fuck, 592 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 3: this could be a movie. That's the method by which 593 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 3: I can gain an understanding of this, and if I 594 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 3: love it and I'm fascinated by maybe other people will 595 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 3: be too. I think we can make this fucking great. 596 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 3: If we make it great, maybe this is the way 597 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 3: we become screenwriters. Like it's very much that's the order 598 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 3: of if I had to reduce it to thoughts. I mean, 599 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 3: it's all I can say instinctive, But if I had 600 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 3: to break into thoughts, that's probably the way I would 601 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 3: order those thoughts. 602 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 2: Now, because of everything you've done, I imagine that a 603 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 2: lot of people approach you for feedback on their work, 604 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 2: and I'd love to know why when someone asks you 605 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 2: for feedback you respond with what kind of feedback do 606 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 2: you want? 607 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 3: Well, that's only really like fellow professionals, most of the time, 608 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 3: all I can say is no, I can't hear, I 609 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 3: can't read, because like the lawyers, truly don't let me, 610 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 3: and the lawyers basically explain the risk, and I then 611 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 3: say no, I won't. But let's say somebody who is 612 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 3: a fellow professional who is represented. I know she won't 613 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,719 Speaker 3: sue me if I read your thing, and then someday 614 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 3: she thinks, oh, there's a project, you know I wrote 615 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 3: about a bowling alley. Hey, this thing is about darts. 616 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 3: I think they stole my idea. But yes, if a 617 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 3: fellow professional says, will you read, I will say what 618 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 3: kind of feedback do you want? Because sometimes what somebody 619 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:31,800 Speaker 3: wants is just encouragement. That's mostly a waste of time. 620 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 3: But if they want real feedback, if they want me 621 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 3: to really get in there, I will give them full, 622 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 3: detailed notes. And that won't always be a pleasant conversation, 623 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 3: but the hope is it'll lead some We're good and 624 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 3: I'll tell you my friend, our friend Craig Mason did 625 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 3: that for us on the Billions pilot script and it 626 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 3: was invaluable. Our friend l would Read did that too. 627 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 3: They read the script and Craig gave us. Craig is 628 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 3: one of the best screenwriters in the business, gave us 629 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:08,439 Speaker 3: two hours of conversation because he noticed some things. Hey, 630 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 3: the way you get into this scene is confusing. Let's 631 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 3: talk about what else you could do to get into it. Hey, 632 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,720 Speaker 3: here's a moment. It would be good to be alone 633 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 3: with the character and bond and you don't take all 634 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 3: those ideas. But as the questions get raised, it forces 635 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 3: you to reevaluate the work. And I try to do 636 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 3: that for my friends. We do that for each other, 637 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 3: but civilians can't really take that kind of feedback. They 638 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:29,359 Speaker 3: don't really want it. 639 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 2: Now. Feedback, of course, is a request on your time, 640 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 2: and I would imagine you would get all sorts of 641 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 2: people reaching out to you to ask you to do 642 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 2: things like me asking you to be on how I work. 643 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 2: And I'm curious as to how you make those decisions, 644 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 2: like what you say yes to and what you say 645 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 2: no to. 646 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 3: You I mostly say no no. I like this podcast. 647 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 3: That's why I did it, and I think it's a 648 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,879 Speaker 3: fascinating subject matter and maybe useful. So like maybe someone 649 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 3: who wants to be a showrunner a screenwriter, maybe this 650 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 3: is well. I think about this all the time. A 651 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 3: couple of things. One, my kids are older now, so 652 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 3: in some ways it's easier when my kids were younger, 653 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 3: and I had to really take that into account and 654 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 3: wanted to take that into account. But if I can 655 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 3: be playing guitar and writing songs, that's what I want 656 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 3: to do, So I want to protect that time in reading, 657 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 3: you know reading. I would say the other thing, like, 658 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 3: if we go back slightly, the thing that made me 659 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 3: want to do this to begin with is how much 660 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 3: I love reading, how much books have given me, and 661 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 3: I still try to protect enough time to read. I 662 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 3: still read like a couple books a week, and that's really, really, 663 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,280 Speaker 3: really important to me. So everything gets fit in around 664 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 3: time I spend with my wife Amy, who is also 665 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 3: a great filmmaker, writer and novelist, you know, and my 666 00:36:55,080 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 3: work responsibilities exercise and you know that, and within that, 667 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 3: then I try to just pick a few things that 668 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 3: I'm willing to do. 669 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: What's your approach to saying no, because I imagine, having 670 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: said it so many times, I imagine you probably have 671 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: some different strategies that make saying no easier or quicker 672 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: for you. 673 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 3: I try to say no very quickly. What you said 674 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 3: is exactly right. I try to say no very quickly 675 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 3: and very directly. I can't do this. I try not 676 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 3: to say check back with me in six months. If 677 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 3: I say that, I mean it at the time. I 678 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 3: try not to say that. I try to really think 679 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 3: about whether I'll ever do the thing, but I just 680 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 3: say a quick no. It's not going to I can't 681 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 3: do that now. I don't really give a huge explanation, 682 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 3: usually because they want the yes or the no really, 683 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 3: So I try to be definitive and I try to 684 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 3: be quickly responsive. I just just happened the other day 685 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 3: someone asked me, and I just said, they asked me 686 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 3: for a blurb. I had just read read a book 687 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 3: and given a blurb to somebody, an older writer I 688 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,399 Speaker 3: read this who wrote an incredible his work had meant 689 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 3: a lot to me. He asked me to read the book. 690 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 3: I won't give a blurb if I don't read the book. 691 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 3: I read the book, and then so happened. I finished that, 692 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 3: and I got a request from somebody to do a blurb. 693 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 3: And at first maybe they wrote me a few months ago, 694 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 3: and I said, I'm just not sure. I don't think 695 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 3: I have the time, and they wrote me again and 696 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 3: I just wrote back and I said I can't do 697 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 3: I'm sorry. I wish you well, and I meant to. 698 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 3: I said, it's a really complishment to write a book. 699 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:30,880 Speaker 3: I just don't have the time to read your book, 700 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 3: and that you know that's true. 701 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,280 Speaker 2: So I'm impressed that you're reading two books a week. 702 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 2: I think I heard a statistic that the average person, 703 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,320 Speaker 2: or maybe the average American, reads one book a year. 704 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 3: Which come on that can't be true. That can't be true. 705 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 2: I know right like that that nearly gave me a 706 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 2: heart attack. That statistic, and he's very depressing as someone 707 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 2: that does write books, like i'd left to know maybe 708 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,359 Speaker 2: like in the last six months. Given you know, that's 709 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 2: a sample of about fifty books, what's one of the 710 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 2: books that has had the biggest impact on you? 711 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 3: I am in I will tell you I'm reading a 712 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 3: book right now that is so fucking good and it's 713 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 3: not what I normally read, and it is just incredible. 714 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 3: And I'm just going to get the exact title books. 715 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 3: I don't want to get it wrong. Here, Burning Boy, 716 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 3: The Life and Work of Stephen Crane by Paul Auster, 717 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 3: And this book is a biography of Stephen Crane, great 718 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 3: American writer from the late eighteen hundreds. Paul Ouster, though 719 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 3: is I think the writer I read most closely in 720 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:50,479 Speaker 3: my twenties, and he is an incredible fiction writer. He 721 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 3: has written some of my favorite books. I haven't read 722 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 3: him as closely over the last ten or fifteen years 723 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 3: for whatever reason. Things go in seasons. But I saw 724 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 3: this book in the books and it's, you know, like 725 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 3: six hundred page biography of a writer that I've read 726 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 3: Red Badge of Courage like everybody else, but I haven't 727 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 3: read anything else by Crane. I don't think though, I'm 728 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 3: going to read all of it. I hadn't read anything 729 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 3: else by Crane except Red Badge of Courage. So I 730 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 3: left it in the bookstore one day and then I 731 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 3: went I love bookstores, my favorite place to go. I 732 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 3: went back two weeks later. I started staring it again, 733 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 3: and I was like, you know what, something's calling me. 734 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 3: This book's calling me. And I started reading it, and 735 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:31,759 Speaker 3: I just have to tell you, it is the most 736 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 3: magnificently written book about America and this guy and capitalism 737 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 3: and war, and it's amazing halfway through, and it's slow going, 738 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 3: like I read. I do read two books at the 739 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:49,920 Speaker 3: same time, like off and I a fiction and nonfiction 740 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 3: book going, and I say two books a week. It 741 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,399 Speaker 3: might be two books in ten days and then three 742 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,280 Speaker 3: books over the next whatever. But I do have two books, 743 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 3: usually two books going at the same time. And I'm 744 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 3: reading this Paul Oster book slowly, but I'm just blown 745 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 3: away by how much I how much I love it. 746 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 3: So that's a full that's just a full recommend from me. 747 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 3: To anybody listening to. 748 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 2: This, I'm so good to check that out. I'm exactly 749 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 2: the same with my reading habits. I've always got a 750 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 2: fiction at a nonfiction going at the same time. 751 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 3: Oh I love that. 752 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:24,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's so good. 753 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 2: I'm reading the Power of Regret, Dan Pink's new book 754 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 2: at the moment, you know, interviewing him in a couple 755 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 2: of weeks, and I got to say, I'm just loving it. 756 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 2: It's I who would have thought reading a book about 757 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 2: regret would be just captivating and it is. So that 758 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 2: is my recommendation for the listeners wanting another book to read. 759 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 3: I'll give you one more though, and you should have this. 760 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 3: This would be a great guest for you. And do 761 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 3: you know if I say little Steven Stephen van Zant, 762 00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 3: do you know who that is? 763 00:41:58,239 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: No? I don't. 764 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 3: Little Steve van Zandt is best known as being like 765 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 3: Bruce Springsteen's creative partner guitar player since the beginning, produced 766 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 3: some of the albums with Bruce, but he's also was 767 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 3: one of the leads on the Sopranos. He was Silvio 768 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 3: on the Sopranos, and he said this incredible life of 769 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,439 Speaker 3: and so he was Tony. Basically he served the same 770 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 3: role for Tony soprano that he served in real life 771 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,240 Speaker 3: for Bruce Springsteen, and he was Silvio on The Sopranos. 772 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 3: And he wrote this book called Unrequited Infatuations. That's all 773 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,759 Speaker 3: about the work. It's completely about process. It is a 774 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 3: full on premer about the process of being a rock star, writer, producer. 775 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,239 Speaker 3: He would be a magnificent guest for you. He's a 776 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 3: great talker and an incredibly well read person. And the 777 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 3: book's great Unrequired Infatuations. It reads like a novel, but 778 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 3: it's a memoir. 779 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: Wow, Okay that I'm going to check out. And I'm 780 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: going to check that book out now, Brian. 781 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,439 Speaker 2: For people that want to connect with you in some way, 782 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,200 Speaker 2: consume more of what you're doing. 783 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: What is the best way for people to do that? 784 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 3: The two I mean, I'm on Twitter and I'm active 785 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 3: on Twitter at Brian Koppleman. I'm also on Instagram. I'm 786 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,359 Speaker 3: slightly less active there, and on TikTok I'm slightly less 787 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,239 Speaker 3: active even than I am on Instagram, but always oh, 788 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 3: I think on TikTok, maybe I'm Brian w compliment, but 789 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 3: I'm verified there, so you'll know it's really me, and 790 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 3: you can find me on Twitter or Instagram too. There 791 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 3: are some impersonation accounts, but if the blue check is there, 792 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 3: then it's me. 793 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:37,160 Speaker 1: Awesome. 794 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 2: I'll link to the correct accounts in the show notes. Brian, 795 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,759 Speaker 2: It's just been such a treat, like this hour has 796 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,239 Speaker 2: flown by, and I'm so grateful that you did say yes. 797 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,879 Speaker 1: So thank you, thank you, thank you. It's just been 798 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:51,320 Speaker 1: such a pleasure. 799 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 3: My pleasure, great questions, great talking to you. Can't wait 800 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 3: to hear it. 801 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,799 Speaker 2: I just loved this chat with Brian, and I think 802 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,839 Speaker 2: the thing that's still sticks with me weeks after doing 803 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 2: the interview is the idea of how he writes to 804 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 2: music and how that creates the emotion and the vibe 805 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:16,520 Speaker 2: that he wants to create and communicate in the scene 806 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:17,319 Speaker 2: that he's working on. 807 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,439 Speaker 1: I just love that image. Now, if you're not. 808 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,319 Speaker 2: A subscriber or follower of how I work, now might 809 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 2: be the day to do so, because next week I 810 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:27,840 Speaker 2: have got Eric Barker on the show. 811 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: Now. 812 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 2: I have subscribed to Eric's newsletter along with three hundred 813 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 2: and fifty thousand other people for many years, because he 814 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,520 Speaker 2: writes a newsletter that is evidence based about how to 815 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,839 Speaker 2: live a more bowesome life, and I'll be interviewing him 816 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 2: about some of the very quirky strategies that he uses 817 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 2: in how he approaches his own working rituals. How I 818 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,879 Speaker 2: Work is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead 819 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 2: Set Studios. The producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, 820 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 2: and thank you to Martin Nimba who does the audio 821 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,720 Speaker 2: mix for every show and makes everything sound so much. 822 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,759 Speaker 1: Better than it would have otherwise. See you next time.