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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Cargoton woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: This episode includes some really distressing content related to sexual assault.

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Speaker 2: If you need help, you can call one eight hundred

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Speaker 2: respect or Lifeline. On thirteen eleven fourteen.

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Speaker 3: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os I'm Zara

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Speaker 3: and over the next two weeks we're going to be

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Speaker 3: bringing you a bonus series featuring our favorite deep dives

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Speaker 3: from twenty twenty three. We've put together the best deep

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Speaker 3: dives to listen to on the beach road, tripping when

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Speaker 3: you don't want to speak to the person next to you,

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Speaker 3: or just reflecting on the year that was. Welcome to

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Speaker 3: tda's summer series.

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Speaker 4: A new report was released by the New South Wales

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Speaker 4: Police Watchdog this week. It looked at strip searches across

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Speaker 4: five music festivals in twenty twenty one and twenty twenty

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Speaker 4: two and it found that only twenty seven percent of

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Speaker 4: them followed correct police processes. So to talk a little

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Speaker 4: bit about what this all means and what to do

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Speaker 4: if you find yourself being strip searched, we spoke to

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Speaker 4: senior solicitor from the Redferne Legal Center, Sam Lee. And

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Speaker 4: just keep in mind as you listen to this conversation

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Speaker 4: that Sam practices in New South Wales, but the law

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Speaker 4: is a bit different in other parts of the country. Sam,

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Speaker 4: thanks for joining us on the Daily OZ today.

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Speaker 5: Oh happy to be here. Thank you.

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Speaker 4: I want to start this conversation by understanding what a

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Speaker 4: strip search is.

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Speaker 5: Yes, well, there's two main searches police undertake. The first

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Speaker 5: one usually is at general search, so that's where police

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Speaker 5: can take off your outer clothing, your shoes, hats, but

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Speaker 5: cannot take anything further off right. The second type of

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Speaker 5: search is what's known as a strip search, and basically

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Speaker 5: it's anything beyond a general search, so anything beyond the

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Speaker 5: outer clothing where police require you to take off any

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Speaker 5: inner clothing that's your t shirt, your underpants, your bra,

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Speaker 5: even if they're pulling out your pants and looking down

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Speaker 5: into your underwear or pulling out the front of your

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Speaker 5: top and looking into your breast area, then that's still

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Speaker 5: considered a strip search.

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Speaker 4: And if police at a music festival or in any context,

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Speaker 4: but at a music festival do ask to strip search you,

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Speaker 4: are you obliged to let them do that.

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Speaker 5: Look. Under the law, strip searchers should only be occurring

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Speaker 5: in the most exceptional of circumstances, and even if there's

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Speaker 5: reasonable suspicion of minor drug possession, that's not enough to

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Speaker 5: meet the legal threshold of conducting a strip search. But

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Speaker 5: what we find happens at music festivals is a very

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Speaker 5: common scenario like this. A young person lines up at

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Speaker 5: the festival. They while lining up, a sniffer dog comes

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Speaker 5: near them and may or may not sort of sort

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Speaker 5: of indicate, and police then use that indication take the

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Speaker 5: person out of the music festival line and straight from

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Speaker 5: that line to a tent where they conduct a full

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Speaker 5: body strip search. Now that is unlawful because, as I said,

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Speaker 5: you can't go to a strip search without meeting a

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Speaker 5: very high legal threshold.

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Speaker 4: And so the threshold isn't met if a sniffer dog

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Speaker 4: identifies that you might have something on you. No, it's

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Speaker 4: not in.

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Speaker 5: Fact, even just a search is not met by a

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Speaker 5: drug dog indicating. If a drug dog indicates, it only

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Speaker 5: gives police powers to question you, It doesn't actually give

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Speaker 5: them the powers to search you. Before a police officer

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Speaker 5: can search you, they must form under the law what's

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Speaker 5: called reasonable suspicion, and that then gives them the power

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Speaker 5: to search you, But it does not then give them

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Speaker 5: the power to strip search you.

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Speaker 4: What advice do you have for people who are almost

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Speaker 4: mid process and trying to negotiate their way through what

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Speaker 4: is quite a complex system.

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Speaker 5: It is, and it's a very intimidating system. It's okay

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Speaker 5: for us to talk here in our safe environment, but

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Speaker 5: when you're up against police who usually are carrying firearms,

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Speaker 5: it's a very difficult scenario. The thing I do tell

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Speaker 5: people is, if you can't say anything else, the best

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Speaker 5: thing to say is that I do not consent to

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Speaker 5: the search. Ask them to put on their body worn

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Speaker 5: video footage and say that when the footage is on. Also,

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Speaker 5: get them to note it in their notebook. If you

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Speaker 5: have a friend, you would be a good idea. If

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Speaker 5: the friend remembers to film the interaction from a distance.

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Speaker 5: If they film it close up, then it's quite likely

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Speaker 5: they're going to get into trouble and also their phone

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Speaker 5: might be confiscated, so filming from a distance could be

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Speaker 5: a real advantage. Unfortunately, even if a young person says

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Speaker 5: I don't want to be strip searched, police then may

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Speaker 5: still use force to strip search you or take you

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Speaker 5: for a search look unless you unless you're willing to

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Speaker 5: go into custody and go to a police station. I

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Speaker 5: would not advise to start being abrupt and use force

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Speaker 5: against police. It is important just for your own safety

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Speaker 5: to be cooperative. If you are the ages from ten

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Speaker 5: to seventeen, then police must under the law call a

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Speaker 5: parent or guardian before conducting a strip search.

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Speaker 4: And we're obviously having this conversation today because of this

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Speaker 4: report from the New South Wales Police infrastructure. You yourself

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Speaker 4: are a lawyer in New South Wales. Do you know

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Speaker 4: if the process that you've walked me through today is

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Speaker 4: the same in other states and territories.

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Speaker 5: There are similar laws in other states and territories, but

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Speaker 5: some are tighter. The better law probably is in the

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Speaker 5: Act where police are required to get call permission to

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Speaker 5: undertake a strip search. Their law in your South Wales

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Speaker 5: blows a child as young as ten to be strip

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Speaker 5: searched in front of adult police officers. It does require

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Speaker 5: parents to be or guardian to be called, but it

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Speaker 5: also the law also allows for an opt out clause

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Speaker 5: where if police think the search is urgent to protect

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Speaker 5: evidence or for the safety of the child, then they

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Speaker 5: don't have to call the parent or guardian.

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Speaker 4: Right And I know that you at the Redfern Legal

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Speaker 4: Center are representing some people in a class action, so

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Speaker 4: there's a multiple people involved in that. That's the idea

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Speaker 4: of a class action. And in that you're alleging that

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Speaker 4: New Southwales police have done unlawful strip searches.

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Speaker 5: Yes, sorry, the case was filed in the court around

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Speaker 5: July this year. Anyone that has been strip searched at

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Speaker 5: a music festival within the last six years can still

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Speaker 5: register for that class action, as you rightly say, are

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Speaker 5: our submission is that New South Wales Police have conducted

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Speaker 5: thousands of unlawful strip searches in New South Wales and.

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Speaker 4: What have the general experience has been of those that

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Speaker 4: you're engaging with so far.

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Speaker 5: Look, so many people are quite keen to be part

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Speaker 5: of this class action. Many of my clients have gone

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Speaker 5: through horrific circumstances. For example, I have permission to share

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Speaker 5: a story of a young woman before she went to

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Speaker 5: this music festival. She was sexually assaulted a couple of

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Speaker 5: years beforehand, and while she was waiting in the line

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Speaker 5: at the festival, the police picked her out of the

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Speaker 5: line due to a drug dog indication. Took us straight

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Speaker 5: from that line to a wasn't a tent, it was

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Speaker 5: like a strange container that they used to conduct some

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Speaker 5: strip searches. She was asked to strip down immediately, take

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Speaker 5: off her bra and underwear. She was also wearing a

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Speaker 5: tampon at the time, and asked to remove that tampon

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Speaker 5: and to squat while a police officer moved underneath her

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Speaker 5: to look up into her vagina era. This is how

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Speaker 5: severe some of these get. After that, nothing was found

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Speaker 5: and she was then sent out into the music festival

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Speaker 5: and told to get on with her life. But after

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Speaker 5: that event, there was no way she wanted to go

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Speaker 5: enjoy a music festival and was quite traumatized some years

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Speaker 5: later even after that.

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Speaker 4: That's a difficult story to hear. I do also know, Sam.

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Speaker 4: Just to end that, we do have some listeners who

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Speaker 4: are police officers themselves and I'd like to perhaps end

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Speaker 4: on a point of what advice do you have for

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Speaker 4: them as young members of the police force in trying

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Speaker 4: to do the right thing in their workplace.

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Speaker 5: Yes, I've been contacted by police officers, the ones who

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Speaker 5: actually find even conducting a strip search quite traumatic themselves.

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Speaker 5: There's a number of police officers out there that just

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Speaker 5: don't want to undertake these types of searches. What I

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Speaker 5: do say to police is that they need to turn

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Speaker 5: their mind to the legal thresholds. The legal threshold for

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Speaker 5: strip searches is a really high threshold, and unfortunately, what

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Speaker 5: we're seeing on the ground is that police are failing

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Speaker 5: to meet that legal threshold. And that's not necessarily the

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Speaker 5: fault of the police officer on the ground. It may

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Speaker 5: be that you know that they're not getting the ideal

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Speaker 5: training or culture within the police force to support them

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Speaker 5: in that process.

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Speaker 4: Sam, I really appreciate your time.

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Speaker 5: Oh, thanks so much for your interest in this topic area.

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Speaker 4: New South Wales Police recognize the issues in the audit

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Speaker 4: that we discussed in this episode and said it has

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Speaker 4: taken steps to ensure officers complete mandatory training before conducting searches.

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Speaker 2: And just a note on this episode today. We definitely

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Speaker 2: don't want you to use this episode as legal advice,

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Speaker 2: but if you do think it could be helpful for

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Speaker 2: your friends, why not share it with them to listen

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Speaker 2: to over the weekend. Sam and Zara will be back

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Speaker 2: again next week. Until then, have a great weekend