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Speaker 1: We've got to build hope. We've got to find hope

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Speaker 1: in our own lives, hope for a better future, and

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Speaker 1: then we've got to be able to convey that hope

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Speaker 1: to our kids. It's a Happy Families podcast, the podcast

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Speaker 1: for the time poor parent. He just wants answers now, Gooday.

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Speaker 1: This is doctor Justin Colson, the author of six books

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Speaker 1: about raising happy families, and I'm here with my wife

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Speaker 1: and co hosts Kylie. This is Happy Families them under

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Speaker 1: our six kids. And before we get into a fairly

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Speaker 1: heavy and heavy, kind of challenging topic today, just a

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Speaker 1: little bit of feedback that's come through via the email

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Speaker 1: podcasts at happy Families dot com dot au. We're getting

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Speaker 1: a fair bit of correspondence, honey. Some people are really

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Speaker 1: enjoying the podcast. You remember a little while ago we

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Speaker 1: had this conversation about well, it was episode one hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty. We're topping the charts and in the worst way,

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Speaker 1: and it was about Australian kids doing really badly when

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Speaker 1: it comes to bullying. Where at the top of the table,

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Speaker 1: where there's a lot of going on in the world,

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Speaker 1: it happens in our homes, it happens in our schools,

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Speaker 1: it happens in our workplaces. And Ben from Western Australia

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Speaker 1: send us an email and he just said, doctor Coulson,

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Speaker 1: you can't imagine how much your words have resonated with

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Speaker 1: me when you said that our hearts are not turned

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Speaker 1: to our neighbors, and also that we're very competitive in

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Speaker 1: our society. And then he went on to talk about

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Speaker 1: how in European society where he's from, it's all about community,

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Speaker 1: it's all about being close together, it's all about turning

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Speaker 1: your hearts towards your neighbors, and just basically said a

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Speaker 1: whole bunch of really really nice things. He said, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for all of your work and gave this

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Speaker 1: gorgeous feedback about episode one hundred and thirty. We're topping

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Speaker 1: the charts and in the worst way. If you haven't

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Speaker 1: heard it, I reckon it might be something that you'd

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Speaker 1: love to tap into. And also some feedback that came

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Speaker 1: from Karen who said, and this was about the one

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Speaker 1: that you and I had the conversation about just recently,

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Speaker 1: hormones driving everyone crazy. Karen has tapped into this. In fact,

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Speaker 1: we've had a bit of correspondence around this episode and

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Speaker 1: Karen said, please check out Lucy Peach. Lucy Peach has

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Speaker 1: given this talk it's called the Power of the Period,

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Speaker 1: and she says the past year, I've definitely noticed changes

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Speaker 1: in mood, sex drive, energy levels, and motivation depending on

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Speaker 1: stages in my cycle. It's a real thing. I do

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Speaker 1: think as we go into perimenopause that these stages have

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Speaker 1: a bigger impact on us. Most of my friends in

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Speaker 1: the late thirties to forties are having a similar experience.

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Speaker 1: She said she loves having Misshappy Families on the podcast

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Speaker 1: and just wanted to share that Lucy peach ted talk

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Speaker 1: the Power of the Period, and because we got such

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Speaker 1: great feedback from that conversation that was a little bit

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Speaker 1: tough for us to have, I thought that it was

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Speaker 1: worth sharing and just wonderful to be getting this feedback.

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Speaker 1: We appreciate it so much.

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Speaker 2: Lucy Peach. I'll definitely have to check her out.

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Speaker 1: The Power of the Period.

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Speaker 2: Well, last week you were on TV on Channel seven

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Speaker 2: with Larry and Kylie talking about divorce and separation. From

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Speaker 2: what I understand, I didn't actually get to see it.

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Speaker 2: You seem to have these conversations when I'm doing the

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Speaker 2: school runally.

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Speaker 1: Not everyone's got time to sit on the TV and

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Speaker 1: watch what's going on.

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Speaker 2: So I haven't heard it, but I have heard that

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Speaker 2: it was a great conversation, and I thought it would

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Speaker 2: be really good for us to kind of tap into

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Speaker 2: this conversation here on the podcast, because not everyone would

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Speaker 2: have seen you.

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Speaker 1: No, it's a really tough topic to talk about, and

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Speaker 1: we get a lot of inquiry. I mean, the number

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Speaker 1: one thing that we get asked questions about at Happy Families,

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Speaker 1: either on the website or in our membership or anything

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Speaker 1: like that is know how to discipline the kids, how

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Speaker 1: to deal with just the day to day parenting stress.

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Speaker 1: But one of our top five questions, and it's something

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Speaker 1: that I don't talk about a lot because you and

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Speaker 1: I have a relationship where this has never been countenanced,

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Speaker 1: is separation and divorce. How do you do this right?

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Speaker 1: How do you talk to the kids about it? And

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Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of time thinking about it, but

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Speaker 1: I kind of in some ways feel unqualified to talk

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Speaker 1: about it because we've never had to talk to about

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Speaker 1: children about it. But obviously, when the TV calls and

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Speaker 1: they want to have that discussion, my hope is that

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Speaker 1: I can share some things that are useful.

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Speaker 2: Well, twenty twenty has been this a really crazy year

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Speaker 2: for the world, and I would be really interested to see.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if there's been any studies done so

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Speaker 2: far based on what we've experienced, whether or not divorce

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Speaker 2: and separation, you know, rates have increased as a result

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Speaker 2: of yeah, COVID and this pandemic that we've been dealing with.

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Speaker 1: So if you flick through the Australian like Google that

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Speaker 1: topic for the Australian context, we don't have any stats

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Speaker 1: out yet, so we don't actually know. But if you

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Speaker 1: look at newspapers, mainly newspapers like The Guardian and the

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Speaker 1: Sydney Morning Herald, those that probably sit a little bit

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Speaker 1: to the left of center, they were all very much

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Speaker 1: predicting that divorce would skyrocket because we've got lockdown and

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Speaker 1: we've got families that have been in close quarters, and

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Speaker 1: there is no question at all that for some families,

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Speaker 1: particularly those where relationships are not safe, this could be devastating,

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Speaker 1: it could be catastrophic. But we do have data from

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Speaker 1: overseas and in the United States exactly the opposite has happened.

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Speaker 1: What the data shows in the US is that divorce

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Speaker 1: rates are at an all time low, and that COVID

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Speaker 1: has not done anything at all to accelerate the breakup

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Speaker 1: of relationships. Nevertheless, relationships still break up, whether it's COVID

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Speaker 1: related or not, and it's probably worth talking about some

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Speaker 1: valuable things that we can share with our kids to

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Speaker 1: help them to get through it and also to help

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Speaker 1: us through it. Let's see that next. It's their Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: For a happier family, try a Happy Families membership, because

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Speaker 2: a happy family doesn't just happen.

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Speaker 1: Details at happy families dot com dot au. It's the

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Speaker 1: Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time poor parent

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Speaker 1: who just wants answers. Now, we're talking about how to

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Speaker 1: talk to kids about separation and divorce. Just before we

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Speaker 1: do that, though, we ask a handful of parents what

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Speaker 1: their best advice was for any other parents who might

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Speaker 1: be going through a separation or divorce.

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Speaker 2: If I could change one thing, it would definitely be

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Speaker 2: to really work on a.

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Speaker 1: Decent friendship and relationship despite the hurt and whatnot that's.

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Speaker 2: Happened and being caused by break down.

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Speaker 1: The child didn't ask to be here, the child didn't

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Speaker 1: ask for the separation, but they definitely preserve boats error.

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Speaker 2: So I guess the first question I'd want to know

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Speaker 2: the answer to is how do I talk to my

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Speaker 2: children about this if this becomes my reality?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I reckon. There's a couple of things that are

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Speaker 1: really important here. The first is you've got to choose

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Speaker 1: your timing. I know that this sort of sounds obvious,

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Speaker 1: but don't have the conversation right before the kids go

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Speaker 1: to bed. You know. Can you imagine having the conversation

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Speaker 1: and saying, all right, kids off to sleep, good night.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just terror you want to do it at

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Speaker 1: a time where there's there's plenty of time, there's no rush.

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Speaker 1: You've got to get that timing right. Don't do it

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Speaker 1: on a special day. You know, if it's somebody's birthday

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Speaker 1: today or tomorrow, or it's Christmas coming up next week,

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Speaker 1: just hang out for a little bit longer. Just wait.

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Speaker 1: You don't want to ruin it for everybody. Obviously you

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Speaker 1: can't get this right all the time, but to the

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Speaker 1: degree that you can avoid bed, avoid special days, avoid

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Speaker 1: just before school. I mean, imagine having the conversation saying,

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Speaker 1: all right, kids off to school, you know, good luck today.

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Speaker 1: I just don't think we can be sensitive enough around this,

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Speaker 1: because no matter how will we do it, most kids

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Speaker 1: are going to be absolutely heartbroken unless there's some sort

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Speaker 1: of domestic abuse or course of control going on. And

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Speaker 1: even in those cases, the kids are still going to

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Speaker 1: be frightened and traumatized. It's a hard, hard thing. But

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Speaker 1: in terms of the conversation itself, a couple of critical things.

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Speaker 1: First off, you really want to make sure you've planned

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Speaker 1: it before you sit down to have the conversation. This

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Speaker 1: is not a conversation where you just shoot from the hip.

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Speaker 1: You absolutely need to plan it out and present a

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Speaker 1: united front. You and your partner or ex partner may

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Speaker 1: not be united on many things, but on this you

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Speaker 1: absolutely must be united. It's critical that there's no blame game,

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Speaker 1: and what that means is that you say to the

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Speaker 1: kids first and foremost kids are often blame themselves for this,

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Speaker 1: So you need to say to the kids something along

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Speaker 1: these lines. You want to say something like we aren't

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Speaker 1: happy together, or we want the fighting to stop, or

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Speaker 1: you've watched us try to work this out but it's

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Speaker 1: not working. So that kind of a conversation that there's

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Speaker 1: no blame game, you're highlighting that you've tried and you're

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Speaker 1: talking about what you do want. We want the fighting

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Speaker 1: to stop. You might even say we wish that our

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Speaker 1: family could be happy and have all of us stay together.

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Speaker 1: But we've made a decision that your dad and I

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Speaker 1: or your mum and I are going to separate. And

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Speaker 1: at this point we don't know how long that will

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Speaker 1: be for it might be for a long time, or

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Speaker 1: it might not be for very long at all, but

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Speaker 1: we want the fighting to stop. We've tried to work

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Speaker 1: it out, we haven't been happy. This is the decision

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Speaker 1: we've made, and the kids need to know it's not

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Speaker 1: a negotiation. This is the decision that we've made as

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Speaker 1: the parents. At that point, what you really want to

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Speaker 1: do is highlight a couple of quick things. First of all,

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Speaker 1: here's what's staying the same, because stability and predictability is important.

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Speaker 1: And then here's what's going to change. And again, this

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Speaker 1: is why you've got to plan it out right. You

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Speaker 1: have to plan it out so you know what's changing,

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Speaker 1: what's staying the same. They need to know that they

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Speaker 1: are loved no matter what. Those three vital important words.

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Speaker 1: And then essentially, you let them talk, You let them

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Speaker 1: share their feelings, You answer their questions.

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Speaker 2: That would be a really tough conversation to have to have.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that families that do it well

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Speaker 1: are the ones that take the time. You know that

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Speaker 1: the parents say, all right, this is the decision we've made,

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Speaker 1: but we now need to be adults and make sure

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Speaker 1: that we're on the same page when we talk to

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Speaker 1: the kids, regardless of whether they're three or twenty three,

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Speaker 1: we want to go through this process.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. As you were talking, I was thinking

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Speaker 2: back to a couple that we knew many many years ago,

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Speaker 2: and they had gone through separation and divorce, and for me,

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Speaker 2: as a new friend coming into the situation, I actually

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Speaker 2: didn't know they were divorced because they had worked through

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Speaker 2: their challenges in such a way and recognized that their

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Speaker 2: kids were paramount. Their kids happiness was the most important

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Speaker 2: thing to them. That even though they couldn't get on

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Speaker 2: together in each other's space, that separation had given them

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Speaker 2: the space to learn to love and respect each other

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Speaker 2: as individuals from a distance from a distance, and created

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Speaker 2: this beautiful space for their children to grow up with

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Speaker 2: parents who couldn't do it together but separate. We're actually

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Speaker 2: stronger for it now.

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Speaker 1: That's the ideal, but the reality is that there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of emotion around this and the fallout can very

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Speaker 1: often be very, very nasty.

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Speaker 2: And I came into into their lives many years after

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Speaker 2: the initial stage, so they've had time to work through

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Speaker 2: that process.

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Speaker 1: But if it's acrimonious, if it's really really nasty, you know,

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Speaker 1: let's say there's been infidelity, it's not going to be

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Speaker 1: useful to sit down and say, well, kids, this is

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Speaker 1: happening because your mum or your dad was unfaithful to me.

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Speaker 1: That's not going to be a helpful conversation. As the

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Speaker 1: kids get older, then you might discuss that. Or if

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Speaker 1: they're old enough and you know, you say or what

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Speaker 1: questions have you got? And they're like, well, why what's

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Speaker 1: going on? You may agree ahead of time that that

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Speaker 1: you're going to make a confession and make sure that

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Speaker 1: the kids are aware of what's happened, if they're old

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Speaker 1: enough and if you think that they're ready for that.

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Speaker 1: But generally, what I would say is keep it as

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Speaker 1: harmonious as you can. If there is acrimony, you want

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Speaker 1: to just make sure that everyone's safe. And if there's

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Speaker 1: genuine dramas the family court, but my goodness, it can

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Speaker 1: be capricious. So it's a it's a tricky one.

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Speaker 2: So we've had this conversation, you know, we've listened to

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Speaker 2: our children with you know, kind of.

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Speaker 1: Because we're getting it perfect now after all these years

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Speaker 1: of not Yeah, well.

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Speaker 2: As a parent, how do I know if my children

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Speaker 2: are not okay? You know, this is going to shake

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Speaker 2: their world, rock their world in ways that probably nothing

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Speaker 2: else would have.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the research shows that it typically does. It's really

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Speaker 1: tricky because in the short term, you would expect that

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Speaker 1: they're going to be terribly upset, you know, that's what happens.

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Speaker 1: And when somebody is terribly upset, they do things that

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Speaker 1: you would say, well, they're obviously not coping, and it's

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Speaker 1: because they're not. What we're really looking for is an

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Speaker 1: ongoing pattern of behavior that lasts more than a couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks of grieving, maybe a couple of months even

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Speaker 1: of grieving. If we see this ongoing pattern of withdrawal,

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Speaker 1: if there's school problems, if there's friendship issues, if there's

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Speaker 1: outbursts an aggression, if the grief is so great that

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Speaker 1: it's interfering with normal functioning. After they've had a grief period,

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Speaker 1: and let's face it, that grief period maybe lifelong for

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Speaker 1: some kids who just want their family to be together,

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Speaker 1: if their mood swings are there, if they're getting sick,

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Speaker 1: I'm sick, I can't go to school, I'm sick, I

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Speaker 1: can't do this. Those are all the kinds of things

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Speaker 1: that I'd be looking out for, and often it will

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Speaker 1: be because their hearts are broken. And I know that

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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to create guilt here. For parents, this

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Speaker 1: is a hard thing. I don't know any parent who says, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, we just decided to give up on the marriage.

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Speaker 1: People don't do this easily. This is hard, But the

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Speaker 1: kids will sometimes just say, this is so hard that

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Speaker 1: I'm having physical issues because of the psychological sadness that's occurred.

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Speaker 2: So again, I guess the last thing that I really

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Speaker 2: love to get your advice on is how do I

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Speaker 2: help my child who's struggling with this when my life

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Speaker 2: as the parent has literally fallen apart as well. So

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Speaker 2: I'm in trauma mode myself coming to terms with what's

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Speaker 2: going on, and now I have a child or children

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Speaker 2: who are not coping with this either. How do we

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Speaker 2: work through this together? Because I feel broken.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the short answer, I mean, it's not easy, and

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Speaker 1: I don't want this to sound glib, but my one

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Speaker 1: word answer is hope. We've got to build hope. We've

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Speaker 1: got to find hope in our own lives, hope for

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Speaker 1: a better future, and then we've got to be able

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Speaker 1: to convey that hope to our kids, and that means

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Speaker 1: we've got to have something to look forward to. We've

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Speaker 1: got to believe that hope really comes down to three things.

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Speaker 1: Number One, you've got to set new goals, even if

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Speaker 1: you don't feel like it, even if you never want

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Speaker 1: to set another goal for you for the rest of

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Speaker 1: your life, work out, well, what do I want now

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Speaker 1: and set a new goal. Next, you've got to figure

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Speaker 1: out different pathways to get there, because you're pretty much

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Speaker 1: guarantee that the first pathway you try it won't work,

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Speaker 1: and maybe the second, the third one to either. So

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Speaker 1: you've got to have the tenacity the belief that there

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Speaker 1: are pathways to get to where you want to go,

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Speaker 1: even if it seems impossible. Now, you know, maybe you've

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Speaker 1: just divorced and you're now a single mum, and you

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Speaker 1: decide to set the goal that you're going to get

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Speaker 1: a university degree and finish your education and start a

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Speaker 1: new life, starting your career. And that might just seem

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Speaker 1: so improbable. But if you can work out some pathways

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Speaker 1: towards that goal, all of a sudden, you've got something

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Speaker 1: to look forward to. And then the third thing is

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Speaker 1: you've actually got to have the self belief, and that

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Speaker 1: I think that's actually the biggest one. I talk to

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Speaker 1: so many people who go through a breakup, go through

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Speaker 1: a separation, a divorce, and they actually lose their sense

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Speaker 1: of value. They feel like if they couldn't make that

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Speaker 1: relationship work, if somebody left them chose somebody else instead

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Speaker 1: of them, they mustn't be worthy as a person. And

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Speaker 1: we've got to be able to somehow find within ourselves

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Speaker 1: this self belief that hang on. I do have goals,

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Speaker 1: they are worth pursuing, and I'm worthy of them. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: I will take this pathway or that pathway, or I'll

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Speaker 1: go down as many pathways as I need to, because

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Speaker 1: I believe in myself. Even if that person didn't, that's

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Speaker 1: a reflection of them, not me. And if we can

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Speaker 1: do that for ourselves, then it becomes easier for us

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Speaker 1: to build hope in our children. Hey, kids, here's what

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Speaker 1: we're working towards. Now, this is what we're aiming for,

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Speaker 1: this is the pathway we're treating, and this is why,

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Speaker 1: and you start to become a leader in your family again.

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Speaker 1: And I would say that's the I mean, it's really heavy,

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Speaker 1: it's hard stuff, but that's what I'd be suggesting.

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Speaker 2: You and I have obviously never been through a separation

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Speaker 2: or divorce as a couple, but as you were talking,

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Speaker 2: I was, you know, thinking about a couple of really

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Speaker 2: challenging experiences that I have been through personally that have

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Speaker 2: left me feeling all of those things as an individual.

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Speaker 2: And the one thing that got me through those really

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Speaker 2: really tough times was having the village. We've talked about

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Speaker 2: this a number of times in different episodes, and just

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Speaker 2: surrounding yourself with people who believe in you and who

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Speaker 2: love you, and who can be there for your children

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Speaker 2: when you can't. I think that that is just such

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Speaker 2: a powerful thing for us to have when we feel

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Speaker 2: like we're broken.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, beautiful insight. Well, this has been a really important conversation.

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Speaker 1: Difficult and challenging, but important. If you've enjoyed the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcasts, can you please visit Apple Podcasts and leave

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Speaker 1: the end of every single podcast, but I can't tell

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Speaker 1: there and leave a rating and review. So very much appreciated.

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Speaker 1: We also are grateful to Justin rule On from Bridge

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Speaker 1: Media for making us sound great, and our executive producer

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Speaker 1: is Craig Bruce. If you'd like more info about how

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Speaker 1: we can help make your family flourish, please jump onto

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Speaker 1: Happy families dot com dot au. Oh and by the way,

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Speaker 1: on our Facebook page, Doctor Justin Coulson's Happy Families and

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