1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,160
Speaker 1: Now questions continue to be asked about what is going

2
00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:07,000
Speaker 1: to happen with the State Square Art Gallery building in Darwin.

3
00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,600
Speaker 1: It was originally purpose built for the Museum and Art

4
00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,480
Speaker 1: Gallery of the Northern Territory, but now the government seeking

5
00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:18,040
Speaker 1: expressions of interest from other tenants. Now, we had indeed

6
00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,600
Speaker 1: heard in August that that EOI process was going to happen,

7
00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,680
Speaker 1: but according to the ABC last week, the government told

8
00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,720
Speaker 1: prospective tenants that it would even consider splitting the lease

9
00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,960
Speaker 1: between interested parties and that they could then submit proposals

10
00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,400
Speaker 1: for either single flaws or galleries within the building. Now

11
00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,159
Speaker 1: joining me on the line is prominent art critic and

12
00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,960
Speaker 1: also former head of Australian Art at the National Gallery

13
00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,400
Speaker 1: of Australia, John McDonald. Good morning to you.

14
00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:49,360
Speaker 2: John, good morning.

15
00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,800
Speaker 1: Lovely to have you on the show now. John, I

16
00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,520
Speaker 1: know you've been following this issue closely. What do you

17
00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,360
Speaker 1: make of the government firstly opening up this EOI and

18
00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,840
Speaker 1: then this possibility of opening the building up to partial occupancy.

19
00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,759
Speaker 2: Well, what would suggests to me is that the government

20
00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,759
Speaker 2: initially had a bad idea, which is this building which

21
00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,040
Speaker 2: is virtually completed, which is a dedicated art gallery which

22
00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,160
Speaker 2: is built for that purpose with all mob coms. Towards

23
00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,720
Speaker 2: that end, they suddenly thought, oh my gosh, it's cost

24
00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:23,840
Speaker 2: a lot of money, and it's going to keep costing

25
00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,160
Speaker 2: this money to run it, So why don't we just

26
00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,160
Speaker 2: do something radical and put it out there and see

27
00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,400
Speaker 2: if business can come on board and make something of

28
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,600
Speaker 2: it so we can actually recoup our cost makes some money.

29
00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,880
Speaker 2: And because it's a nonsense idea, the thing is built

30
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,679
Speaker 2: as an art gallery. Everything about this building has been

31
00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,920
Speaker 2: designed to be a purpose built art gallery. To change

32
00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,760
Speaker 2: it into something else is going to require a massive

33
00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:52,040
Speaker 2: amount of rebuilding, reworking. It's nothing like And of course

34
00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,120
Speaker 2: it's destroying the whole point of an asset, which is

35
00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,600
Speaker 2: a tourist asset, which is something that one has needed

36
00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:59,880
Speaker 2: for a long time. So to suddenly turn around and

37
00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:02,840
Speaker 2: you know, so many months down the track, oh look

38
00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,160
Speaker 2: now we're going to take tenders for individual floors or

39
00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,679
Speaker 2: perhaps you'd like to take a room here or room there.

40
00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:10,960
Speaker 2: I mean, they're trying to turn something which is a

41
00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,200
Speaker 2: dedicated art gallery into something that sounds like a bizarre

42
00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,640
Speaker 2: or a shopping mall. And it's an absolute deadset failure

43
00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:19,079
Speaker 2: as a plan.

44
00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,160
Speaker 1: John what do you what do you reckon needs to

45
00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,200
Speaker 1: happen here? By the sounds of it, you think it

46
00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,720
Speaker 1: does need to continue on as an art gallery. I mean,

47
00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,160
Speaker 1: do we need a situation where we've got the museum

48
00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,920
Speaker 1: and the Museum and Art Gallery of the Northern Territory

49
00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,880
Speaker 1: taking this over and you know, having something in there

50
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,160
Speaker 1: that's specifically you know, I may be dedicated to I

51
00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,560
Speaker 1: don't know, a different kind of a specific type of art.

52
00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,280
Speaker 2: Well, it's quite simple. The old Magnet Museum in arc

53
00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,919
Speaker 2: Out of Northern Territory Atability Point has been there since

54
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,480
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty one. It's very run down, it's a shabby

55
00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,160
Speaker 2: old building. It's required some TLC for a long time,

56
00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,679
Speaker 2: and it's always had this uncomfortable compromise of the museum

57
00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,440
Speaker 2: material and the art material side by side, so they're

58
00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,359
Speaker 2: jostling for position. Each neither is really exhibited in a

59
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,920
Speaker 2: satisfactory manner. So the plan, which is a sensible plan,

60
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,040
Speaker 2: is to keep the building at Bulloky Point for the

61
00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,119
Speaker 2: museum and hopefully at some stage renovated and give things

62
00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,440
Speaker 2: a bit more prominence, a bit more chance to be shown,

63
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,600
Speaker 2: and to move the art collection to a newly designed

64
00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 2: civic space right in the center of town. It's and

65
00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,200
Speaker 2: they've got the right architects in Ashford Lamiah with clear design,

66
00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,800
Speaker 2: who built Goma in Brisbane, which has been one of

67
00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,360
Speaker 2: the most successful museum developments in Australia. It's right for

68
00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,880
Speaker 2: the climate, it's right for Darwin. It is also to

69
00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,280
Speaker 2: serve as a showcase for the gallery is growing collection

70
00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,640
Speaker 2: of Indigenous art and has one of the finest collections

71
00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,080
Speaker 2: of Indigenous art in the country. It's also like the

72
00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:54,920
Speaker 2: thing that most people want to see when they come

73
00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,160
Speaker 2: to Australia. Let's go and see the Aboriginal art. Let's

74
00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,520
Speaker 2: see the Indigenous art. Darwin has a great collection. It

75
00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,360
Speaker 2: also has a surprisingly good collection of non indigenous art,

76
00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,520
Speaker 2: which is completely unseen most of the time. So there's

77
00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,800
Speaker 2: an excellent reason for putting it there and for developing this.

78
00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,640
Speaker 2: This is a mark of Darwin's step forward as a

79
00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,600
Speaker 2: proper city as opposed to being a frontier town. It's

80
00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,000
Speaker 2: a way of been taken seriously as a cultural destination

81
00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,800
Speaker 2: rather than being seen as a place you know about

82
00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,919
Speaker 2: crocodiles and beer, which is, you know, the cliches that

83
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:30,680
Speaker 2: Darwin has had to put up with over the years

84
00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,680
Speaker 2: this is This is a huge moment of cultural maturity

85
00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,200
Speaker 2: for Darwin. If they don't grasp it, then they'll look

86
00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:37,440
Speaker 2: like clowns, really they will.

87
00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,360
Speaker 1: John. I know that the government has obviously come out

88
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,200
Speaker 1: and said the ongoing course. You know, we're not budgeted

89
00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,880
Speaker 1: for by the former government. What do you say to

90
00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,800
Speaker 1: anybody listening this morning that's thinking to themselves, we just

91
00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:51,039
Speaker 1: don't have the money for this.

92
00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:53,520
Speaker 2: Of course you have the money for that. If you

93
00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,280
Speaker 2: have the money for what's what's that building down at

94
00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:04,559
Speaker 2: the middle arm product which is costing billions? Yep, yeah, money.

95
00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:06,520
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't know what you mean.

96
00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,600
Speaker 2: There's money to be spent where the government decides there's

97
00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,240
Speaker 2: money to be spent with something like this we're talking

98
00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,839
Speaker 2: about they're talking about one hundred million dollar blowout, and

99
00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,839
Speaker 2: they're talking about ongoing cost Well, everything has ongoing costs.

100
00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,839
Speaker 2: It's absolutely impossible to avoid those ongoing costs. The building

101
00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,680
Speaker 2: has been designed to be as efficient as it possibly

102
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,679
Speaker 2: can be. If they start messing around with it, they're

103
00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,560
Speaker 2: creating extra costs. They're creating collateral sort of mix ups.

104
00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,800
Speaker 2: They're costing money at the moment by this process of

105
00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:42,560
Speaker 2: putting things out to a very unattractive EOI. They're basically

106
00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,680
Speaker 2: saying in the airy that they're going to do nothing,

107
00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,400
Speaker 2: they're going to guarantee nothing, and they're inviting people to

108
00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,600
Speaker 2: come on board and have a go. Well, you know,

109
00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,240
Speaker 2: and then they're saying, oh, it's wonderful for the lifestyle

110
00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,679
Speaker 2: and the culture of Darwin. Well, it's absolutely not at all.

111
00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:01,039
Speaker 2: This is nonsense, is empty speech. They it could name

112
00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,200
Speaker 2: me a single building project in Australia of any size

113
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,640
Speaker 2: that hasn't blown out in costs post pandemic. In most

114
00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,960
Speaker 2: part the bigger things have blown out to the tune

115
00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,880
Speaker 2: of billions. One hundred million dollars is not an absolute

116
00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,440
Speaker 2: debarcle in the schema things for a building of this

117
00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:17,839
Speaker 2: size and this value.

118
00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,360
Speaker 1: I know you have said previously that this building is

119
00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,200
Speaker 1: a tourism asset of national significance. I mean, what's the

120
00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,080
Speaker 1: recent to tourism and reputation. Do you think if it

121
00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,480
Speaker 1: ends up a piecemeal shared use facility rather than sort

122
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,599
Speaker 1: of a flagship gallery, Well, it's an embarrassment.

123
00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,480
Speaker 2: I mean. The fact is, if it had been an

124
00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,160
Speaker 2: early phase, been the planning and so on and so forth,

125
00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,360
Speaker 2: then they might have been able to get away with it.

126
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,839
Speaker 2: But the point is the building is on the verge

127
00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,839
Speaker 2: of completion and it has been purposely designed and built

128
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,599
Speaker 2: to be an art gallery with that in mind since

129
00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,400
Speaker 2: about twenty twenty one when it was first mooted. So

130
00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,760
Speaker 2: what they're doing now is the eleventh hour they have

131
00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,400
Speaker 2: decid to try and change things around. We've all you've

132
00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,400
Speaker 2: seen in South Australia what happens when you have a

133
00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,080
Speaker 2: plan for a contemporary art gallery and then at the

134
00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,320
Speaker 2: last minute they decided to change it into an indigenous gallery. Well,

135
00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,920
Speaker 2: this indigenous gallery plan is still hanging around and hanging

136
00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,280
Speaker 2: around because it didn't really have any substance to it.

137
00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,400
Speaker 2: And what they're doing at the moment in Darwin is

138
00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,480
Speaker 2: something which once again is policy on the rum, which

139
00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,840
Speaker 2: is revising something which had been worked through, which had

140
00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,040
Speaker 2: been planned and that sort of many many years, and

141
00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,560
Speaker 2: deciding to do something as a knee jerk reaction at

142
00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,440
Speaker 2: the last minute, pretending that they're going to do something

143
00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,760
Speaker 2: which is wonderful for business, wonderful for the economy, save

144
00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,520
Speaker 2: a whole lot of money. It's a fiction. It's based

145
00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,640
Speaker 2: on the knee jerk reaction that whatever the previous government

146
00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,120
Speaker 2: did was bad and wasteful, and what they're going to

147
00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,480
Speaker 2: do is tremendously economically beneficial.

148
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,920
Speaker 1: It's a fiction getting a bit of pushback from our listeners,

149
00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,760
Speaker 1: you know, some saying Middle Arm is funded by the

150
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,160
Speaker 1: feed so it's a bit different ano they're saying it's

151
00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,560
Speaker 1: a job creating project at Middle Arm. I guess you know.

152
00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,720
Speaker 1: The argument is that a new museum of an art

153
00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,080
Speaker 1: gallery or a new art gallery is not going to

154
00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,880
Speaker 1: be job creating or it's not going to be a

155
00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,520
Speaker 1: real boost to the economy. It's going to be a

156
00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,320
Speaker 1: strain on the Northern Territory taxpayer.

157
00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,280
Speaker 2: How can I say that? I mean, a new art

158
00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,000
Speaker 2: gallery is an obvious distraction. Look at something like Bill Boo,

159
00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,120
Speaker 2: you know, which was a place nobody went and then

160
00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,560
Speaker 2: they built the brand new Gary building and it suddenly

161
00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,640
Speaker 2: became a massive place. I mean, I'm not going to

162
00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:39,800
Speaker 2: suggest that it's going to happen to Darwin just like that.

163
00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:44,240
Speaker 2: But it's going to be a significant attraction and as such,

164
00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,400
Speaker 2: it's going to be something that helps to add to tourism.

165
00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:48,640
Speaker 2: It's going to enable people to stay in extra day

166
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,520
Speaker 2: or so, it's going to create events, it's going to

167
00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,400
Speaker 2: give people reasons to come up there. It is a

168
00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,800
Speaker 2: tourist attraction. It's going to generate revenue. And to say

169
00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,640
Speaker 2: that it's not, and to pretend something like, you know,

170
00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,480
Speaker 2: a petrochemical plant will create enormous numbers of jobs, but

171
00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,040
Speaker 2: whereas this will not create jobs in tourism and thereabouts,

172
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,760
Speaker 2: it's just false. Well it's not solely the SAIDs. I mean,

173
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,080
Speaker 2: you know, the local government's putting money into that too.

174
00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,520
Speaker 1: John. I really appreciate your time this morning. I think

175
00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,040
Speaker 1: it gives people a bit of a different perspective. It's

176
00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,880
Speaker 1: something that we've spoken about quite a bit over recent weeks.

177
00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:24,760
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for having a chat with

178
00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:25,480
Speaker 1: us this morning.

179
00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:27,320
Speaker 2: Okay, thanks, thank you,