1
00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:08,160
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Family Podcast. A couple

2
00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:18,680
Speaker 1: of months ago on Parental Guidance, you heard this, I no,

3
00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,880
Speaker 1: I am a human who absolutely loves donuts. I am

4
00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,919
Speaker 1: just obsessed with them, but I am one hundred percent human.

5
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:27,040
Speaker 2: Wow.

6
00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:32,400
Speaker 1: AI chatbots replacing real friends? Is it possible? Today on

7
00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,960
Speaker 1: the podcast, we discussed that with an expert who runs

8
00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,640
Speaker 1: a substack, one of the best tech substacks in the world.

9
00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,880
Speaker 1: Jacqueline NeSSI Jackie NeSSI is from Brown University, asking the

10
00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,680
Speaker 1: question our AI companions replacing real friends because we know

11
00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,879
Speaker 1: that Ozzie kids are into them? Plus a brand new

12
00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,480
Speaker 1: study that Jackie's done, the surprising truth about smartphone checking

13
00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,760
Speaker 1: and mood. How often do your kids pick up their

14
00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,720
Speaker 1: phones and what does it do to their own motions

15
00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,920
Speaker 1: and their ability to be in the moment. There's stuff

16
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:11,080
Speaker 1: for you, there's stuff for them. Stay with us. Hello

17
00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,119
Speaker 1: and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Real parenting solutions

18
00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,280
Speaker 1: every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. My name

19
00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,600
Speaker 1: is doctor Justin Coulson. Today I'm joined by Jacqueline NeSSI.

20
00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,399
Speaker 1: Jackie's a clinical psychologist and assistant professor at Brown University

21
00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,400
Speaker 1: and author of the popular weekly sub stack Techno Sapiens.

22
00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,200
Speaker 1: I discovered a couple of months ago, and I literally

23
00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,080
Speaker 1: never miss an episode. An addition, I never missed the newsletter.

24
00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,720
Speaker 1: I love it, an email. Whatever it is, substack, I've

25
00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,120
Speaker 1: recently discovered it. I'm into it. Techno Sapiens is the

26
00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,840
Speaker 1: name of the substack. Jackie's research focuses on the role

27
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,040
Speaker 1: of technology and kids' mental health, especially teens, and on

28
00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,160
Speaker 1: how parents can help. She's the co founder of Tech

29
00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,120
Speaker 1: Without Stress, which provides online resources and courses for parents

30
00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,120
Speaker 1: raising kids in the digital age, put together with a

31
00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,960
Speaker 1: Harvard research as well. We are talking about big guns

32
00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,680
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about all of that and more today. Jackie,

33
00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,000
Speaker 1: thank you for staying up late to chat with me

34
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:05,680
Speaker 1: on the podcast.

35
00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:08,360
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

36
00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,000
Speaker 1: So let's start off with AI bots. You referred in

37
00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,919
Speaker 1: Techno Sapiens a couple of months ago to a new

38
00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,440
Speaker 1: article from common Sense Media looking at what's going on

39
00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:24,760
Speaker 1: with kids, friends and these brand new AI companions. What

40
00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,560
Speaker 1: did you discover and why does this matter for parents?

41
00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:30,400
Speaker 2: Yeah? So this is really I think kind of the

42
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,520
Speaker 2: new frontier for parents when we think about technology and

43
00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,280
Speaker 2: the ways that it's impacting our kids. I think we

44
00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,640
Speaker 2: know that generative AI is becoming more and more commonplace,

45
00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:45,760
Speaker 2: more ubiquitous. Kids and teens in particular are certainly using it.

46
00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,480
Speaker 2: And this study from Common Sense Media in particular was

47
00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:54,560
Speaker 2: looking at AI companions, so basically the use of AI

48
00:02:54,880 --> 00:03:01,360
Speaker 2: for more emotional support, friendship, more sort of companionship. And

49
00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,040
Speaker 2: one of the most striking findings to me was just

50
00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,800
Speaker 2: how frequently kids are using these just how sort of

51
00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,800
Speaker 2: out there they are. So seventy two percent they found

52
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,000
Speaker 2: of teens say that they've ever used an AI companion,

53
00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,640
Speaker 2: which is much higher than I would have anticipated. And

54
00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:20,720
Speaker 2: it almost half or a little more than half of

55
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,560
Speaker 2: teens are regular users, so they're using these things, you know,

56
00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,160
Speaker 2: at least a few times a month.

57
00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,480
Speaker 1: This really surprised me as well. When we did this

58
00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,960
Speaker 1: on parental guidance, a couple of kids, we're just like, Eh,

59
00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,000
Speaker 1: this is kind of dumb, not into this. If I'm

60
00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:36,080
Speaker 1: going to talk to somebody, I want to talk to

61
00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,560
Speaker 1: somebody real. But a couple of the kids were really hooked.

62
00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,840
Speaker 1: They were really really dragged in. I know that a

63
00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,880
Speaker 1: lot of adults are using things like chat GPT as

64
00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,840
Speaker 1: a companion like as a conversation almost as a therapist,

65
00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,440
Speaker 1: but character dot AI and the other one that I

66
00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,880
Speaker 1: can think of Israelica Replica. Yeah, they seem to be insidious,

67
00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,440
Speaker 1: like once the kids start talking with them, the kids

68
00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,920
Speaker 1: don't want to let go, but the AI can pay

69
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,600
Speaker 1: onion doesn't seem to want to let go either. Kay,

70
00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:05,080
Speaker 1: spell it for the best.

71
00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:11,440
Speaker 2: I don't need you being my best friend anyway. See. Yes, okay,

72
00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,000
Speaker 2: here's something concerning who wants to go and the chatbot

73
00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,560
Speaker 2: is trying to keep them engaged. That's very typical. Of course,

74
00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,000
Speaker 2: they want users to stay online as long as possible. Yeah,

75
00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:22,880
Speaker 2: I think this is this is tricky because I think

76
00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,880
Speaker 2: right now we're in a phase where these technologies are

77
00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,839
Speaker 2: being designed and in many cases they're being designed for adults,

78
00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,520
Speaker 2: right They're they're not being designed specifically for kids or

79
00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,520
Speaker 2: four teens, and so I think we do run a

80
00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,320
Speaker 2: little bit of the risk of you know, are these

81
00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,200
Speaker 2: going to be safe for kids. One thing that I

82
00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,880
Speaker 2: worry about is what you're talking about, which is that

83
00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,279
Speaker 2: some of the platforms are designed to increase engagement, so

84
00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,560
Speaker 2: they're designed to keep the conversation going, you know, as

85
00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,000
Speaker 2: long as possible, And what that means is that sometimes

86
00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,440
Speaker 2: you get into situations where maybe the chatbot is saying

87
00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:04,479
Speaker 2: things to keep kids engaged, to keep them using them

88
00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,479
Speaker 2: for longer, and that's not always going to be the

89
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,000
Speaker 2: best thing for a given kid, depending on the situation.

90
00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,240
Speaker 1: I was talking to a parent just recently about this.

91
00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,760
Speaker 1: Her son is having a really hard time socially, has

92
00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:21,440
Speaker 1: some neurodevelopmental challenges, and this mom said, when he talks

93
00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:26,720
Speaker 1: with the AI companion, he feels like he has a friend.

94
00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,760
Speaker 1: Do you think that teens are replacing real life friends

95
00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:36,360
Speaker 1: with AI companions? Is this something that is potentially going

96
00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,200
Speaker 1: to I mean the numbers are staggering. Three quarters of

97
00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,560
Speaker 1: kids have tried and half using them with some regularity.

98
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,000
Speaker 1: Do you think that this is actually going to become

99
00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,479
Speaker 1: a thing? And what would you say to a mum

100
00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,640
Speaker 1: who says, at least my son now has someone to

101
00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:50,120
Speaker 1: talk to.

102
00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,400
Speaker 2: I think it's important with this, just like it is

103
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,359
Speaker 2: with any other technology like social media or smartphones or

104
00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,160
Speaker 2: whatever it may be, to not paint with too broad

105
00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,080
Speaker 2: of a brush, because I do think that there are

106
00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,280
Speaker 2: certainly kids using these tools in certain ways where they

107
00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,440
Speaker 2: can have real benefits. I think it is the case

108
00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,279
Speaker 2: that there may be some kids who are struggling in

109
00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,960
Speaker 2: certain ways and their offline lives or who have you know,

110
00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,719
Speaker 2: other things going on where then it is helpful for

111
00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,599
Speaker 2: them just to have another thing out there to get advice,

112
00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,480
Speaker 2: even to ask about, you know, sort of social skills,

113
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,320
Speaker 2: to learn new things. Like. I certainly think that there

114
00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,400
Speaker 2: can be benefits for some kids. So I personally don't

115
00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,360
Speaker 2: think and I don't think the research right now would

116
00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,280
Speaker 2: support the idea that this is all bad and that

117
00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,800
Speaker 2: we should be you know, and that yeah, and that

118
00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,279
Speaker 2: it's bad for all kids at all times. I do

119
00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,559
Speaker 2: think that with the current platforms, like I was saying,

120
00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:46,800
Speaker 2: I think that we need more safeguards in place. I

121
00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,000
Speaker 2: think that these things are being designed for adults, and

122
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,720
Speaker 2: we really need if we want kids to be able

123
00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,760
Speaker 2: to take advantage of the benefits of the platforms, they

124
00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,479
Speaker 2: really need to be designed for kids. And that means

125
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,960
Speaker 2: having some safeguard, it's having some safety futures in place.

126
00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have an unanticipated question that just popped into

127
00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:11,119
Speaker 1: my head around this kind of technology and social media

128
00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,760
Speaker 1: more generally. I mean, this is your area of absolute

129
00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,680
Speaker 1: depth and expertise. The Australian government is introducing minimum age

130
00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,760
Speaker 1: legislation at the end of the year. Under sixteens won't

131
00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,800
Speaker 1: be able to access social media platforms without verifying their

132
00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,720
Speaker 1: age they need well, so if you're under sixteen, you

133
00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,600
Speaker 1: can't verify your age because you're under sixteen. You've got

134
00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:31,880
Speaker 1: to be able to sixteen to use the platforms. And

135
00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,680
Speaker 1: news just recently was that YouTube would also be included

136
00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:42,160
Speaker 1: in that legislation. What do you think about this idea generally?

137
00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,040
Speaker 1: Is this a good thing or a bad thing that

138
00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,240
Speaker 1: the government is stepping in and saying the tech companies

139
00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,200
Speaker 1: can't be trusted with your children and we're going to

140
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:56,120
Speaker 1: therefore introduced legislation to keep your kids safe from these nefarious,

141
00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:57,600
Speaker 1: mendacious bad actors.

142
00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I see, you know, I see both sides of

143
00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,160
Speaker 2: this here where I think. On the one hand, I

144
00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,560
Speaker 2: do think that there there's always going to be some

145
00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,000
Speaker 2: kind of age cut off for these types of tools,

146
00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,440
Speaker 2: right so, you know, in the US, at least right now,

147
00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,040
Speaker 2: it's effectively thirteen. Of course you can get on younger

148
00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,320
Speaker 2: than that, but you know, generally most places they're setting

149
00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,360
Speaker 2: an age limit and saying, hey, here's the age that

150
00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,760
Speaker 2: we think it's appropriate for kids to be on these platforms,

151
00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,520
Speaker 2: and so you can debate what is the best age

152
00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,920
Speaker 2: for that. You know, some would say younger thirteen is better,

153
00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,720
Speaker 2: some would say older sixteen is better. So that's one

154
00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,760
Speaker 2: side of it that you know, you need to set

155
00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,120
Speaker 2: it somewhere, and so why not set it at sixteen?

156
00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,000
Speaker 2: The biggest challenge that I see with it is that

157
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,559
Speaker 2: the implementation, I imagine will be very difficult, and I

158
00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,319
Speaker 2: could see a situation where you still get a lot

159
00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,400
Speaker 2: of kids under the age of sixteen who are getting

160
00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:57,360
Speaker 2: onto these platforms, and then there's really no incentive for

161
00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,319
Speaker 2: the companies to then make the products better and save

162
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,200
Speaker 2: for four kids, because they can just say, well, there's

163
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:06,920
Speaker 2: none of them on there. They're not supposed to be

164
00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,319
Speaker 2: on there. And so I think that, you know, ideally,

165
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,320
Speaker 2: I think you'd have kind of a two prong solution

166
00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,560
Speaker 2: where you have a you have a minimum age whatever

167
00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,640
Speaker 2: you decide that should be, but you also are taking

168
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,880
Speaker 2: steps to improve the platforms themselves so that younger users

169
00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:23,680
Speaker 2: are having a better experience on there.

170
00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,360
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you for that. So many things we could

171
00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,280
Speaker 1: talk about up next, though, we have to have a

172
00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,080
Speaker 1: chat about this study that you've just done recently looking

173
00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,839
Speaker 1: at the surprising truth about how often you check your

174
00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:46,760
Speaker 1: smartphone and what it does to your mood. Today, I'm

175
00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,520
Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast speaking with Professor Jacqueline NeSSI from

176
00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,520
Speaker 1: Brown University, mum of two young kids, and the author

177
00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,880
Speaker 1: of a brand new study looking at the surprising and

178
00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,679
Speaker 1: revealing truth about how often we check our smartphones and

179
00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,640
Speaker 1: what it says about our moods, well at least for teenagers. Jackie,

180
00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,280
Speaker 1: talk us through this study that you did and what

181
00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:10,880
Speaker 1: we as parents need to know about our kids and

182
00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:11,800
Speaker 1: their smartphones.

183
00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,079
Speaker 2: So this study was one that I did in collaboration

184
00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,480
Speaker 2: with doctor Caitlin Burnell who is at the University of

185
00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,800
Speaker 2: North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and we did the study

186
00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,320
Speaker 2: with the team team there at UNC. And what we're

187
00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:29,040
Speaker 2: interested in is whether the amount of times that teens

188
00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,680
Speaker 2: picked up their phones throughout the day had an impact

189
00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,640
Speaker 2: on their mood. And so actually anyone can check the

190
00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,240
Speaker 2: number of times that they have picked up their phones

191
00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,800
Speaker 2: in a given day. If you have an iPhone, for example,

192
00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:42,760
Speaker 2: you can go to your screen time app. Do you

193
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:44,640
Speaker 2: have an Android, you can go to what's called Digital

194
00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,840
Speaker 2: Well Being and it gives you a number of how

195
00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,000
Speaker 2: many times did you did you pick up your phone?

196
00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,839
Speaker 1: I've just checked, I've just checked. I don't know you,

197
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,240
Speaker 1: I don't know if I want to confess this or not. Okay,

198
00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:56,480
Speaker 1: you would know what the norms are? What would a

199
00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,960
Speaker 1: typical fifty year old man have for his daily pickup?

200
00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,040
Speaker 1: Can I get an average just before I revealed?

201
00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,360
Speaker 2: Oh you know what? I don't know for a typical

202
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,400
Speaker 2: from a typical fifty year old man, I can give

203
00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:08,479
Speaker 2: you for teens.

204
00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,200
Speaker 1: But what would the average team be?

205
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,199
Speaker 2: Yeah? So in our study, we found the average was

206
00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,400
Speaker 2: one hundred and twelve times per day.

207
00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,080
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, okay, so hang on, I want to do

208
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,520
Speaker 1: some quick maths before I reveal how many times I'm

209
00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,840
Speaker 1: looking at my phone per day picking it up? So

210
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,880
Speaker 1: one hundred and twelve times a day? How many hours

211
00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,160
Speaker 1: would you say the average teenager is awake per day?

212
00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,600
Speaker 1: Is that like? Should we say fourteen hours? Fifteen hours?

213
00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:32,400
Speaker 1: Would that be about right?

214
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:32,800
Speaker 2: Yeah?

215
00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,520
Speaker 1: Okay, So if it's fifteen hours, that's seven and a

216
00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,800
Speaker 1: half pickups an hour, So that's one pick up less

217
00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,120
Speaker 1: than every ten minutes. That's on average, right, So the

218
00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 1: average kid, yeah, once every ten minutes they're picking up

219
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:44,240
Speaker 1: the phone and looking at it. That must be terrible

220
00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,200
Speaker 1: for productivity and terrible for getting into flow.

221
00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that there we know that

222
00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,920
Speaker 2: most people are picking up their phones a lot throughout

223
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,800
Speaker 2: the day, and that, you know, we don't know in

224
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:57,960
Speaker 2: this study, we don't know exactly, you know, when those

225
00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,520
Speaker 2: pickups were happening, if it was concentrated at certain times

226
00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,160
Speaker 2: of day. But certainly you would think also that if

227
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,839
Speaker 2: the pickups are happening, you know, in the middle of

228
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,160
Speaker 2: the night or during the school day, or you know,

229
00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,960
Speaker 2: during times when we would hope that other things are happening,

230
00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,640
Speaker 2: like sleep or you know, engagement in the classroom, you

231
00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,960
Speaker 2: would think that that would have a negative impact on

232
00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:18,680
Speaker 2: productivity and focus.

233
00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:20,880
Speaker 1: Okay, so how many times do you pick it up

234
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,000
Speaker 1: h day, Jackie? Just i' got to know.

235
00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,880
Speaker 2: Oh, let's see, my number was when I looked at

236
00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,400
Speaker 2: this ninety something. Wow.

237
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,240
Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm feeling better about life. I'm at forty four.

238
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:32,959
Speaker 1: Forty four.

239
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:34,160
Speaker 2: Oh, that's not bad.

240
00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,719
Speaker 1: That's not bad. I'll take that. Okay. So what did

241
00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,920
Speaker 1: we learn about these these children and their pickups and

242
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:41,400
Speaker 1: their mood?

243
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there were two. I would say two main

244
00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,480
Speaker 2: takeaways from the study. So, so one was that teens

245
00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,440
Speaker 2: who were checking their smartphones you know, more frequently on average,

246
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,280
Speaker 2: they're picking them up overall more than their peers, were

247
00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,920
Speaker 2: also showing more like ups and downs in negative emotion

248
00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:04,440
Speaker 2: like sadness and anger, so kind of more variability in

249
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,600
Speaker 2: their in their negative emotions. You know, we don't know

250
00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:09,960
Speaker 2: in this case what's causing what. So it could be

251
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,600
Speaker 2: that kids who are already sort of having more mood

252
00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,240
Speaker 2: swings are more likely to be checking their phones, maybe

253
00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,959
Speaker 2: as a way to regulate, or it could be the opposite,

254
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,160
Speaker 2: that the checking of the phones is actually causing a

255
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,480
Speaker 2: bit more up and down in their moods. So that's

256
00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,119
Speaker 2: what was one key finding. And then the other takeaway

257
00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,400
Speaker 2: was that, you know, looking sort of day to day,

258
00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,120
Speaker 2: was that when teens had a particularly you know, bad day,

259
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,280
Speaker 2: so like lower positive feelings than usual on a given day,

260
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,280
Speaker 2: they actually picked up their phones more the next day.

261
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:49,280
Speaker 2: But interestingly, that was only for kids who had lower

262
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,960
Speaker 2: levels of mindfulness. And so what we think might be

263
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,640
Speaker 2: happening there is that this is sort of about kind

264
00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,280
Speaker 2: of emotion regulation. So maybe kids who are less kind

265
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,839
Speaker 2: of mindful of all less present or maybe having more

266
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,640
Speaker 2: trouble regulating their emotions. And so then when they have

267
00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:07,920
Speaker 2: a bad day, maybe they're turning to their phones to

268
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,559
Speaker 2: help them feel better. So they're picking up their phones

269
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,560
Speaker 2: more often as a way to feel better. This, you know,

270
00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,800
Speaker 2: it could be good or bad. Right, It could be

271
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,600
Speaker 2: bad if there's more effective ways they could be coping.

272
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,280
Speaker 2: It could be good if they're reaching out for support,

273
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:26,000
Speaker 2: you know, if they're talking to family and friends, texting

274
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:26,840
Speaker 2: and that kind of thing.

275
00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,240
Speaker 1: So that prompts the question when they do pick up

276
00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,680
Speaker 1: their phones, do you know what they're doing on them?

277
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,000
Speaker 1: Like where are they going with the pickup?

278
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, we have a general sense of you know,

279
00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,560
Speaker 2: we don't know for every single pickup, but interestingly, in

280
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,000
Speaker 2: our sample, fifty percent of the pickups overall, you know,

281
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 2: across all participants or for Snapchat, So that's definitely the

282
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,920
Speaker 2: most common thing that they are doing is getting outo Snapchat.

283
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,240
Speaker 2: And again that could be could be good if they're

284
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,000
Speaker 2: basically using it text to text and reaching out to friends.

285
00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,480
Speaker 2: It could be bad if it's something that's you know,

286
00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,120
Speaker 2: where they're scrolling or it's generally sort of not effective

287
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,600
Speaker 2: for them in terms of coping. The next most popular,

288
00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,440
Speaker 2: much farther behind that was Instagram, which was thirteen percent

289
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,240
Speaker 2: of the pickups messages was twelve percent wow.

290
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:15,960
Speaker 1: And TikTok was not there.

291
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,280
Speaker 2: Or TikTok was seven percent wow. So this was yeah. This,

292
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,600
Speaker 2: So the study was done in twenty twenty, and so

293
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,040
Speaker 2: that's when the data was collected, and so TikTok at

294
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,200
Speaker 2: the time was popular but not quite where it is now.

295
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,960
Speaker 2: So I imagine if we did it now we might

296
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,080
Speaker 2: see some differences there.

297
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,960
Speaker 1: Okay, So the take home message really is kids may

298
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,280
Speaker 1: be using their phone as an emotion regulation tool, and

299
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,000
Speaker 1: that could be good or bad depending on what they're

300
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:47,480
Speaker 1: doing as they use the device they're on. Their phone's

301
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,680
Speaker 1: a fair bit we already know that. Where to from here?

302
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,320
Speaker 1: What do we what do we really need to understand

303
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:54,440
Speaker 1: at this point?

304
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think the I think that's very

305
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,120
Speaker 2: true in terms of the takeaway. And I think the

306
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,960
Speaker 2: other major takeaway is just that the effects of smartphones

307
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,400
Speaker 2: on mood and on well being are actually kind of complicated.

308
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:08,840
Speaker 2: I think a lot of times we think that this

309
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,720
Speaker 2: is this very simple smartphones are bad, Like that's sort

310
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,760
Speaker 2: of the message that we get and how we come

311
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,120
Speaker 2: into this thinking. But really it depends a lot on

312
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,880
Speaker 2: kind of what kids are doing on their smartphones when

313
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,000
Speaker 2: they're on there. It depends on who they are, right Like,

314
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,760
Speaker 2: individual kids are having different experiences on their smartphones depending

315
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,800
Speaker 2: on a number of factors. In our study we were

316
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,520
Speaker 2: looking at their levels of mindfulness, but it could be

317
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,040
Speaker 2: a number of different things, and so the effects really

318
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,680
Speaker 2: depend on who it is and how they're using it.

319
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:45,520
Speaker 1: Jackie Nissi, clinical psychologists and professor at Brown University. Check

320
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,960
Speaker 1: out the substack techno Sapiens. I'll link to that in

321
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,720
Speaker 1: the show notes. And a course to help you with

322
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,680
Speaker 1: your children and their screen time tech without stress. Again,

323
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:57,480
Speaker 1: I'll link to it on the show notes. This is

324
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 1: definitely worth taking a look at. Jackie's somebody who I

325
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,840
Speaker 1: think is incredibly knowledgeable in these areas and you will

326
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,440
Speaker 1: get so much from it. Jackie, thanks so much for

327
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,000
Speaker 1: spending some time with us chatting about your studies and

328
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,200
Speaker 1: what are kids doing online. Really appreciate it.

329
00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:12,520
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

330
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,359
Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from

331
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,560
Speaker 1: Bridge Media. More information and more resources from Happy families

332
00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:20,600
Speaker 1: dot com. Dot au