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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, creating those spaces for strong connection, building that village

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Speaker 2: around our kids is such an important antidote to the

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Speaker 2: challenges that they experience.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: This is doctor Justin Coulson.

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Speaker 4: I'm the founder of Happy Families dot com dot you,

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Speaker 4: the author of six books about raising a happy family,

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Speaker 4: and the parenting expert on Channel Mine's Parental Guidance. I'm

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Speaker 4: here with Kylie, my wife and mom to our six kids.

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Speaker 4: Kylie today answering a question that comes through to podcasts.

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Speaker 4: That's podcasts with an s at Happy Families dot com

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Speaker 4: dot au. We really appreciate it when you trust us

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Speaker 4: to be helpful with challenging situations that you experienced as

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Speaker 4: a parent, things that you would like help with, things

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Speaker 4: that you would like to be able to get right

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Speaker 4: at home. And Kylie today, this one is a really

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Speaker 4: tough one, and I think that it's one that will

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Speaker 4: pull up the heart strings of every parent who worries

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Speaker 4: about the child and just wants them to be okay.

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Speaker 4: I won't mention the name of the person who sent

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Speaker 4: this one through. But she's basically said, I've got a son.

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Speaker 4: He's sixteen and he's depressed. Not only is he depressed,

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Speaker 4: but he's getting psychological and psychiatric help for it. So

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Speaker 4: the good news is when we're dealing with childhood and

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Speaker 4: adolescent depression, and I'm talking about proper depression, diagnosed depression,

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Speaker 4: not a child who's feeling a big glum for a bit,

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Speaker 4: we really do need to get help. Unfortunately, this mum

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Speaker 4: is in a position where she's been able to number one,

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Speaker 4: have the resources to get the help at number two,

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Speaker 4: because it's so hard to get psychological help at the moment.

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Speaker 4: Our psychologist is so busy. She's got the help and

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Speaker 4: that's a really big start. So let me share with

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Speaker 4: you a couple of things that she says, Kylie.

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Speaker 3: In her letter.

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Speaker 4: She says, there are so many articles about how to

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Speaker 4: identify depression and anxiety in your children, and I want

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Speaker 4: to pause, just there there are heaps, So we're not

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Speaker 4: going to talk about how to identify it. You can

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Speaker 4: google it, we've done podcasts about it before. It's all

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Speaker 4: out there. But she says there are none that addressed

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Speaker 4: the Then what only vague statements of being compassionate and loving,

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Speaker 4: and that it's a long road. She says, I feel

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Speaker 4: since my son's diagnosis that my parenting toolbox is out

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Speaker 4: the window. He's just not capable of anything at the moment.

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Speaker 4: Simple tasks like hanging out the washing he forgets to do,

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Speaker 4: or I find him staring at the washing line crying.

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Speaker 4: I have to ask him multiple times for things like

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Speaker 4: come to dinner, and instead of being loving and fun,

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Speaker 4: I him myself constantly correcting and directing. Then, she says,

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Speaker 4: another example is I'd normally say if you can't go

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Speaker 4: to school, you can't socialize on the weekend, But he

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Speaker 4: tells me this is when he's able to recharge and

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Speaker 4: feels calm and isn't facing memories of what's tormenting him.

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Speaker 4: And there's one more thing that's worth highlighting, and that

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Speaker 4: is that there's been some sort of a trauma in

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Speaker 4: his life that Mum doesn't know about and he's not.

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Speaker 3: Ready to talk about yet.

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Speaker 4: But when she suggests let's go for a walk to talk,

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Speaker 4: let's just be together, he says no.

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Speaker 3: Maybe.

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Speaker 4: Later tries to have weekly family meetings so we can

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Speaker 4: all connect, won't show up. Things are really really hard.

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Speaker 4: How do I include him?

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Speaker 3: Is what she says. It's a tough situation.

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Speaker 4: When we're dealing with genuine depression.

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Speaker 2: I think for anyone who has experienced depression in their

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Speaker 2: home specifically, would a test to just how hard it

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Speaker 2: is to be the person on the other end watching

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Speaker 2: a loved one suffer in usual silence.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and not.

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Speaker 2: Have any control over making it any better.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And we've had first hand experience of this in our families,

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Speaker 4: and it's extremely hard. Not just that, I mean you've

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Speaker 4: particularly been involved with several friends who have suffered deeply

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Speaker 4: and profoundly at the most extreme ends of this.

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Speaker 2: And as a person who is not in a space

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Speaker 2: of depression and watching somebody else grapple with the simplest

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Speaker 2: tasks and just not be able to take the next

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Speaker 2: step or to function on a day to day basis,

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Speaker 2: it is so hard to fathom that they can't just

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Speaker 2: get up and have a shower, that they can't just

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Speaker 2: get up and feed their children, that they can't just

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Speaker 2: get up and scrub the floors because there's food everywhere.

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Speaker 2: It's so hard when you're in a good, healthy space

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Speaker 2: to understand how someone could find the simplest day to

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Speaker 2: day tasks literally impossible.

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Speaker 4: And depression in your child, I mean just so heart wrenching.

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Speaker 4: This is a really tough thing. So I hear at

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Speaker 4: this moment, I hear her just saying, I just want

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Speaker 4: to make it better. I just want to alleviate this burden.

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Speaker 4: And and there's also a thing that you said that

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Speaker 4: the why, like, why can't he just pull the peg

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Speaker 4: out of the basket and hang the washing on the line.

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Speaker 4: Why can't he just do that? You're why can't he

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Speaker 4: just come to dinner? Why can't he just go for

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Speaker 4: a walk?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think there's another level to this as well.

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Speaker 2: Though there's been a trauma, he's acknowledged that something has

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Speaker 2: taken place, and he's not able to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: And as a parent, feeling that your child doesn't have

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Speaker 2: the capacity to share with you, whether it be hurt,

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Speaker 2: joy satisfaction, it feels like there's a lack of trust,

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Speaker 2: whether there is or not, as a parent, just you

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Speaker 2: don't trust me with that, You can't trust me with that, and.

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Speaker 4: That that hurts well. As you know, my PhD was

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Speaker 4: all about the essence of human flourishing, exactly the opposite

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Speaker 4: end of the depression and psychopathology end of things. But

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Speaker 4: as a result of all the study that I've done,

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Speaker 4: I've got a whole lot of different ideas that I

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Speaker 4: when I read this letter, I thought, oh, well, I

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Speaker 4: can suggest, and I want to tell you all the

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Speaker 4: things that I can suggest, and then I'm going to

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Speaker 4: tell you why they're not going to be helpful in

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Speaker 4: this situation.

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Speaker 3: Let's go through them.

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Speaker 4: So if we talk about what research shows one of

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Speaker 4: the best ways that we can help somebody is to

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Speaker 4: who's depressed and wants to be better, is to help

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Speaker 4: them to be active, to be physically active. But when

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Speaker 4: you're depressed, you can't get out of bed, let alone

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Speaker 4: go for a run, or go for a bike ride,

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Speaker 4: or go for a hike. And and you want them

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Speaker 4: to be standing on top of the mountain that they've

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Speaker 4: just climbed and taking in the owe and the beauty

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Speaker 4: and savoring the moment and the accomplishment, but they're still

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Speaker 4: in bed. In fact, the mountain sometimes is just getting

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Speaker 4: out of bed.

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Speaker 3: How do you do that? I mean, that's just so hard.

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Speaker 4: And will it have the same impact on well being

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Speaker 4: as we as we see in the research that it

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Speaker 4: potentially can so being active, I've got to mention it,

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Speaker 4: and I'm also going to highlight that I don't know

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Speaker 4: if it's going to work in this case. The second

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Speaker 4: thing that I'm going to mention connecting that that was

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Speaker 4: the number one thing on my mind. He's acknowledged that.

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Speaker 2: You know, you're saying, if I don't go to school,

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Speaker 2: I can't hang out with my friends. But being with

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Speaker 2: my friends is actually the oxygen WI flying at the moment.

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Speaker 2: That's my safe place. But you know, creating those spaces

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Speaker 2: for strong connection, building that village around our kids is

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Speaker 2: such an important antidote to the challenges that they experience.

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Speaker 4: My sense, though, is that in a situation like this connection.

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Speaker 4: While I said, I'm going to mention a handful of

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Speaker 4: things that should work but probably won't, connection can, but

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Speaker 4: it might not be with you. It might be that

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Speaker 4: things are too raw, things are too hard, And as

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Speaker 4: much as you want that relationship, we've got a teenage

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Speaker 4: boy who he probably needs to have good people around

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Speaker 4: him that he can connect with other than a parent.

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Speaker 3: This is where Artie is and uncles step in.

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Speaker 4: This is where good neighbors or church leaders or scout

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Speaker 4: or sporting leaders or someone in the community steps in.

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Speaker 4: Amazing teachers at school. These are the people who step

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Speaker 4: in and say, hey, you're having a really tough time.

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Speaker 4: My meant and our wonderful friend Wally Goddard. He talks

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Speaker 4: about how when he was a school teacher many years

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Speaker 4: ago before he went and did his postgraduate work and

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Speaker 4: became an academic. He talks about how as a school teacher,

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Speaker 4: a young boy in his class came to him and

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Speaker 4: asked him if you go duck watching or duck hunting

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Speaker 4: or something like that, And Wally was like, why don't

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Speaker 4: you do that with your dad? And the little boy

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Speaker 4: or I say little he was a young teen. He said, Oh,

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Speaker 4: my dad's too busy. I thought i'd ask you, And

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Speaker 4: Wally had the presence of mind to realized this boy

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Speaker 4: was making a bid for connection. He wanted an adult

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Speaker 4: male in his life who could be a role model

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Speaker 4: because dad wasn't available. And Wally talks about how this

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Speaker 4: freezing morning he's putting on all of this wet weather

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Speaker 4: gear and he's trapsing through a swamp and literally commando

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Speaker 4: crawling through the bushes with this boy so that they

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Speaker 4: can sit and watch the sun rise and watch the

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Speaker 4: birds or or whatever it is. I don't think that

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Speaker 4: they were hunting. I think they were actually bird watching

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Speaker 4: and maybe that connection with somebody is going to be helpful.

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Speaker 2: We've talked about this a few times on the podcast,

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Speaker 2: where I've acknowledged that growing up, I always had a

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Speaker 2: few other adults outside of my home who I saw

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Speaker 2: as mentors, safe places for me to be. But I

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Speaker 2: think that in some ways it has really opened my

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Speaker 2: eyes to the recognition that, in spite of everything my

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Speaker 2: mum did to be my everything, she wasn't able to be,

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Speaker 2: and that as a result, I can't possibly be that.

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Speaker 2: And I've been really conscious about surrounding my children with

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Speaker 2: other beautiful people in their lives who they feel safe

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Speaker 2: with and can share with and have acknowledged with them

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Speaker 2: at different times, you maybe don't feel like you can

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Speaker 2: share with me what's going on. Is there somebody else

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Speaker 2: that you want to talk to right now? Because I

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Speaker 2: recognize that you actually need to talk and I might

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Speaker 2: not be the person that you need right now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So you've taken them to see Michelle or Pepper

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Speaker 4: or Alyssa or whoever it might be, and just said

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Speaker 4: hab a chat or don't. But you guys can hang

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Speaker 4: out for a bit, and I'm just going to give

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Speaker 4: you the time in space.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And sometimes, in all honesty, as a parent, that's

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Speaker 2: really hard. It's really hard knowing that my child doesn't

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Speaker 2: want to share with me. But I've also recognized and

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Speaker 2: watched over even my experiences as a child and now

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Speaker 2: seeing my children. Our children have this beautiful desire to

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Speaker 2: protect us when we're hurting. That just hurts them even

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Speaker 2: more in their pain.

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Speaker 4: Which means that, I mean, that may be why this

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Speaker 4: particularly young man doesn't want to say, hey, mum, here's

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Speaker 4: what happened to me.

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Speaker 3: This is the thing that I'm burying.

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Speaker 4: It's because I'm trying to protect you, mum, so that

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Speaker 4: you don't know, so that you don't have to confront

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Speaker 4: and deal with the weight that I'm carrying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because the weight I'm carrying is suffocating for me.

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Speaker 3: What's it going to do to you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And of course children don't understand how sharing that

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Speaker 4: burden can actually lighten the load for them. Right after

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Speaker 4: the break, we're going to talk about a couple of

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Speaker 4: other things that should work but may not, And I

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Speaker 4: think it's important to explore why but then I'm going

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Speaker 4: to talk about a couple of things that I'm certain

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Speaker 4: are going to make a really big difference in helping

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Speaker 4: you if you've got a child with depression.

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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Thing Famili's podcast.

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Speaker 2: For a happier family, Try a Happy Families membership, because

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Speaker 2: a happy family doesn't just happen.

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Speaker 4: Details at happy Families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now. And today we're

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Speaker 2: delving into a little bit of a hard one. We're

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Speaker 2: dealing with children and depression.

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Speaker 4: So we've talked about how physical activity is really important,

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Speaker 4: but it can be a real struggle, and also the

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Speaker 4: power of connection, although once again it may be a struggle,

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Speaker 4: and we spent quite a lot of time talking about

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Speaker 4: how to overcome that struggle because it's just so vital.

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Speaker 4: Connection is the heart of wellbeing, and really if we

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Speaker 4: can make that sense of relatedness strong, we can start

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Speaker 4: to work very very well on overcoming some of the

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Speaker 4: challenges that we're facing if we've got a Childhoo's depressed.

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Speaker 4: There's a couple of other things that the research points

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Speaker 4: to that I think are really powerful antidotes to depression.

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Speaker 4: One of them is curiosity, an ability to learn, a

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Speaker 4: desire to develop understanding this there's so much research that

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Speaker 4: highlights this is a powerful strength, and so Todd Cashton

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Speaker 4: at George Mason University, Martin Siligman, one of the grandfathers

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Speaker 4: or the father, i should say, of the modern positive

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Speaker 4: psychology movement. They all point to this idea of curiosity

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Speaker 4: and learning to make things better. And the next one

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Speaker 4: that's definitely worth pointing out is being mindful. Problem is,

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Speaker 4: you don't really want to sit in your silence, you

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Speaker 4: don't want to be mindful when you're depressed, and you

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Speaker 4: certainly don't want to get excited about learning, like they're

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Speaker 4: really hard things to do. And yet if we can

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Speaker 4: step into a present state, because let's face that, depression

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Speaker 4: is usually feeling awful about what's happened or awful about

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Speaker 4: what's going to happen. So research shows that these things work,

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Speaker 4: but they're really hard to do when you're depressed. It's

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Speaker 4: really hard to be excited about learning when you're depressed,

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Speaker 4: because nothing's worth learning, nothing's positive. I'm not curious about anything.

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Speaker 4: I just want everything to finish. Also, very hard to

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Speaker 4: be mindful and present, because if I'm going to be

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Speaker 4: here right now and focus on the here and now, well,

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Speaker 4: the here and now is awful. I hate it, and

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Speaker 4: the past was terrible, and future it's going to be horrible.

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Speaker 4: So it's really hard to get into that gratitude, mindfulness,

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Speaker 4: savoring kind of space as well. It's all just very

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Speaker 4: very challenging. So Kybie, what I think is from a

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Speaker 4: research point of view and also from maybe a philosophical

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Speaker 4: and moral point of view, the best thing to do

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Speaker 4: if you're depressed is to find meaning in life. The

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Speaker 4: essence of human flourishing really is about meaning. And you

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Speaker 4: don't tend to be inclined to find meaning in life.

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Speaker 4: And if you say to your teenage son who's depressed,

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Speaker 4: you just need to find some meaning in your life,

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Speaker 4: they're going to I mean, that doesn't even make sense

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Speaker 4: to them. But the way that we find meaning usually

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Speaker 4: is by doing something for other people. One of the

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Speaker 4: most powerful ways that we can develop a sense of

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Speaker 4: meaning is by identifying what we can do to make

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Speaker 4: life better for someone else. And I don't know how

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Speaker 4: much research there is out there now that points to volunteering,

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Speaker 4: helping autonomous service that really makes a difference in helping

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Speaker 4: people to work through their depression, because when you're depressed,

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Speaker 4: you're focused all about Your focus is all on you.

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Speaker 4: But when you're serving others, you don't think about yourself

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Speaker 4: at all. You just think about other people. Finding service opportunities,

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Speaker 4: especially for a teenage boy, finding an opportunity to contribute

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Speaker 4: in the community, to make a difference is going to

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Speaker 4: be hard. I don't know the best steps to do that,

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Speaker 4: but what I do know is that when we or

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Speaker 4: our children start to help other people, three things happen.

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Speaker 4: Number One, there's a strong sense of community, a sense

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Speaker 4: of relatedness. Relationships are built when we start making a

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Speaker 4: difference in people's lives. Number Two, we actually start to

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Speaker 4: feel confident and capable. I feel like we've got a

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Speaker 4: sense of control and capacity in our lives. See, when

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Speaker 4: we're depressed, we feel like we can't do anything, nothing matters,

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Speaker 4: can't make a difference. But all of a sudden, we've

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Speaker 4: got evidence that we are making a difference. This is working,

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Speaker 4: and these things combined to bring meaning. We look at

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Speaker 4: what we're doing and we're seeing the change that it happens,

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Speaker 4: and we feel good about it. One of the best antidotes.

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Speaker 4: It's not a cure all, it's not a silver bullet.

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Speaker 4: But one of the best antidotes I think to depression,

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Speaker 4: especially in our kids, is helping them to make a

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Speaker 4: difference in someone else's life.

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Speaker 2: I love it and I know that as we've gone

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Speaker 2: throughout our lives and I have experienced from time to time,

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Speaker 2: you know, depressive episodes. For me, the one thing that

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Speaker 2: has got me out of those dark spaces is just

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Speaker 2: finding the capacity to reach out to somebody else.

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Speaker 3: Other people, other people.

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Speaker 4: So to the anonymous podcasts at happy families dot com

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Speaker 4: you emailer, we hope that this has been helpful, helping

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Speaker 4: them to be active, to connect with others, to be mindful,

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Speaker 4: to keep on learning, but most of all, to find

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Speaker 4: meaning potentially through service in the community. These are evidence based,

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Speaker 4: empirically acknowledged potential strategies and solutions that might be helpful

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Speaker 4: for your son.

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Speaker 3: We really hope that it helps.

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Speaker 4: And if you are experiencing depression or your children are kids,

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Speaker 4: Helpline and Lifeline are there to help you. You can

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Speaker 4: get their numbers by googling. Will also include their numbers

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Speaker 4: in the show notes. The Happy Families podcast is produced

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Speaker 4: by Justin Ruland.

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Speaker 3: From Bridge Media.

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Speaker 4: Craig Bruce is our executive producer and if you would

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Speaker 4: like more information about how you can make your family happier,

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Speaker 4: because a happy family doesn't just happen, please visit us

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Speaker 4: at happy families dot com, dot you and check out

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Speaker 4: our Happy Families memberships,