1 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families Podcast. I'm doctor Justin Colson. 2 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: Every so often a study comes along that creates shock 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: waves and a brand new, comprehensive thirteen year study of 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: four thousand Australian children taking ADHD medication has reached a 5 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: conclusion that has stunned researchers. I'm going to find out 6 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: why next. Stay with us today. This is the Happy 7 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: Family's podcast, Real Parenting Solutions, every single day on Australia's 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,919 Speaker 1: most downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Coulson. Kylie, 9 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: this study I'm so excited to share for the Doctor's Desk. 10 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: It comes from Deacon University in Melbourne and I want 11 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: to give you a quick overview of where we're at. 12 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: Here's the general rundown. Children medicated for ADHD have a 13 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: lower quality of life than those with the condition who 14 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: are unmedicated. This is a brand new study Deacon University 15 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: Research is more than four thousand children from four to seventeen. 16 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: The research has found that those taking ADHD medication like Ritlin, 17 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: were struggling compared to children with a diagnosis who were 18 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: not taking the medication. Direct quote from the lead author quote. 19 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: Those taking ADHD medication in our sample experienced more severe 20 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: ADHD symptoms, which may have significantly impacted children's functioning. 21 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 2: When I think about children taking medication, specifically medication that 22 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 2: alter's behavior, this to me feels more like a management 23 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: approach to behavior for the comfort of the adults in 24 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: the room. 25 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: Okay, so that's a really provocative statement. Here's the thing. 26 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: This is supposedly a shock finding, but we have known, 27 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: in for people who are doing proper research in this area, 28 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: we've known for a couple of decades now that the 29 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: drugs don't work. Well, let me rephrase, the drugs do work, 30 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: but they're not. 31 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 2: Actually, they're just masking the bigger issue. 32 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: Correct, They're masking bigger issues. They're masking systemic issues, issues 33 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 1: in the environment issues. Let me give you an example. 34 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 1: So the data that we're talking about here tells us 35 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: the following. This is data from the Australian Institute of 36 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: Health and Welfare and what it shows is that children 37 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: aged twelve to seventeen prescribed ADHD related medications has tripled 38 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: over the last ten years. We've gone from about two 39 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: percent of twelve to seventeen year olds to six point 40 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: six percent. 41 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: So how much of this comes down to the fact 42 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,679 Speaker 2: that if you have a diagnosis then there is more 43 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 2: funding thrown at you. In education system. 44 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: You get a lot less funding. If funding an ADHD 45 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: don't tend to tie together autism definitely, ADHD not so much. 46 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: And even that's changing. Funding is constantly. It's just a 47 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: c sort. It's a rollercoaster, and parents are screaming constantly 48 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: saying I had money, it was taken away, or I 49 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: need more money, or whatever it could be, because funding 50 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: is such a merry go round and part of the 51 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: problem is that the diagnoses keep on going up. So 52 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: in Australia today around one in twenty children has ADHD 53 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: one in twenty and most are diagnosed somewhere around about 54 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: the age of six or seven, early primary school years. 55 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: And there is an assumption. In fact, I read a 56 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: recent article in press in the Murder Press that said, 57 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,839 Speaker 1: insid direct quote talking about the study we're discussing here, 58 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: the finding is at odds with other studies that have 59 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: discovered that taking ADHD medication is linked to better outcomes 60 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: for children. That's a big fat lie And I want 61 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: to spend a little bit of time in this Doctor's 62 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: Desk episode talking about why it's a big fat lie, 63 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: and it's provocative and it's really hard for people to hear. 64 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: Because when your GP or your pediatrician is telling you, 65 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: or even your child an adolescent psychiatrist is telling you 66 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: that the drugs do work. For me to sit here 67 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: on the podcast in a Doctor's Desk episode of and 68 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: say well, actually, the drugs don't work, it can be really, 69 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: really tough to hear. So I want to give you 70 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: some evidence for it. Okay, the most I would say 71 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: one of the most famous studies on the treatment of 72 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: ADHD was published back in the turn of the century 73 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: around that I can't remember the exact date, and it's 74 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: called the MTA Study. It's the Multimodal Treatment of Children 75 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: with ADHD Study, the MTA Study Multimodal Treatment Children with ADHD. 76 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: It was a fourteen month study. And not only was 77 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: it fourteen months so it's nice and longer itudinal, but 78 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: it was a multi location trial. So it's not just 79 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: a bunch of kids in Brisbane or a bunch of 80 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: kids in Canberra, or a bunch of kids in South Australia. 81 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: It's right across a whole lot of different locations. We've 82 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: got five hundred and twenty seven children age seven to ten. 83 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: They're randomized to four treatment groups. So you've got a 84 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 1: medication only group, you've got to behavior therapy only group, 85 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: you've got a combined medication and behavior group, and then 86 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: you've got routine community care, which means that there's not 87 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: really a whole lot going on, there's just general care 88 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: for the child. And what the author's found after fourteen 89 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: months of treatment was that there was more reduction of 90 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: ADHD symptoms in the medication only group and in the 91 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 1: combined medication and behavior therapy groups than the behavioral therapy 92 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: only which, obviously, as you would expect in a study 93 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,799 Speaker 1: like this, did better than the routine community care group. Essentially, 94 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: they were a control group. But if you do much 95 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: more careful reading of this and I'm sorry to geek out, 96 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: this is why you fall asleep in doctor's desk episodes, 97 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: but this is what is so important about these episodes, 98 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: and more detailed reading showed that there were some genuine 99 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: problems with the conclusion that the group reached, and the 100 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: peer reviewed paper brought as an example, two thirds of 101 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: the routine community care group were also prescribed stimulants. They 102 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: were also given drugs, though just part of the community care, 103 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: and so the control group wasn't a true control group. 104 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: They were receiving care from a GP or from whoever 105 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: the parents could get help from, and two thirds of 106 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: them ended up getting drugs during the trial anyway, but 107 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: they had the poorest outcomes of all. Also, the behavioral 108 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: treatment group, so they definitely didn't have any drugs that 109 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: consisted of an intensive six week course and that could 110 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: be completed at any time during the fourteen months. So 111 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: by the time of the fourteen month evaluation, some of 112 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: the families receiving that behavioral therapy intervention they completed it 113 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: maybe nine months ten months before the final assessments, and 114 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: others had only just done it. Whereas the medication group 115 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: they had regular appointments throughout the study period and soil 116 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: all of this raises the possibility of placebo effects being 117 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: the main reason for better outcomes of the medication and 118 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: the combined medication behavior therapy group because they're having regular 119 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: reviews through the fourteen months versus the other two groups. Anyway, 120 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: that's a long way of saying there's some really big 121 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: flaws with what became the most literally this became the 122 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: most quoted study for ADHD treatments. It's been consistently referred 123 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: to as the gold standard study in treatment guides across 124 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: a whole lot of countries. But there's so much more 125 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: to the story, and after the break, I'm going to 126 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: tell you what the clanger is here and why this 127 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: shock finding here in Australia with our seven thousand ADHD 128 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: kids is not such a shock at all. Stay with us. 129 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: We're back with the Happy Families podcasts. So this fourteen 130 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: month MTA study the gold standard around ADHD and medication, 131 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: and this belief that giving kids medication because they've got 132 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: ADHD is really really interesting. And the reason that I 133 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: want to share it is as follows. There was a 134 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: study that was published at the three year follow up 135 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: of the MTA study. There's a three year follow up, 136 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: not just the fourteen month that I've been talking about. 137 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: There's a three year follow up study, But nobody wants 138 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: to know about the three year follow up study that 139 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: was published. 140 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 2: I'm really curious about this. So you've suggested that number one, 141 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: this has become the gold standard in research. Number two, 142 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 2: it's been peer reviewed. And my understanding with research is 143 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 2: that peer reviews are there actually doesn't fall through the 144 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: cracks stomp this out. 145 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: Exactly, And unfortunately it does. And I think there's a 146 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: handful of reasons for it. Number one, because a lot 147 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: of people who are doing reviews are tired and cranky, 148 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: and so long as they're seeing what they want to 149 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 1: see or what they expect to see in the data, 150 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: they just push it through. They've got their own publication loads, 151 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: and they've got the university teaching loads, and they've got 152 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: their own problems to deal with. And you don't get 153 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: paid as a peer reviewer. You end up on an 154 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: editorial board for a journal, or you literally so when 155 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: I was an academic, I had a couple of papers 156 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: sent to me by editors of journals and they just said, 157 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: justin we know that this is an error of specialty 158 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: for you. Would you please be a peer reviewer? And 159 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: so you don't get paid for it. You just get 160 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: a random email from somebody saying can you please review 161 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: this because we think that you're an expert, And then 162 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: you review the paper and they assume that you know 163 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: everything that you need to know to us to effectively 164 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: review the paper. You usually don't know, although sometimes you do. 165 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: You usually don't know who the papers by, but certainly 166 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: if you do know who it's by, those people tend 167 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 1: to skatee through a lot easier because they've got the 168 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: big reputations and nobody wants to offend them. It's a 169 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 1: really flawed process, and in all of the fields that 170 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: are out there, the process is most flawed and has 171 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: been shown to be really hard to replicate findings in 172 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: in psychology, like psychology is a disaster compared to most 173 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: other areas. And that's well, there's a handful of reasons 174 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: that are beyond the scope of our conversation today around that. 175 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: But check this out. Five years later. It's two thousand 176 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: and seven now, and this paper, this three year follow 177 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: up paper of the original MTA study gets published. And 178 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: unlike the original one, like I said, it was published 179 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: in like ninety ninety nine, two thousand something like that, 180 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: this one published now eight years down the track, which 181 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: means that we've got eight years of the mental health 182 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: industrial complex and the psychopharmaceutical complex just pushing the pharmaceutical 183 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: industrial complex pushing drugs out there because they've got this 184 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: MPTA study where everyone's saying it's great. This paper gets 185 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: hardly any press, no one makes any noise about it. 186 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: Nothing happens at all, And here's what they find. After 187 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: fourteen months. The participants in that study were then free 188 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: to choose what they did with their ongoing treatment, so 189 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: it becomes this naturalistic study similar to what happens in 190 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: everyday clinical settings. The three year outcomes found no support 191 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: for continuing superiority of medication, regardless of the initial severity 192 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: of ADHD symptoms. And on top of that, those who 193 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: are on continuous medication during the three years were more 194 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,439 Speaker 1: likely to experience and deterioration in ADHD symptoms, They had 195 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: higher rates of delinquency, and they were four centimeters shorter. 196 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 1: They were literally significantly shorter and lighter by three kilos 197 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: than those who didn't take medication. So after fourteen months, 198 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: it looks like medications working, although there's some big holes 199 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 1: in that study. But then at three years, the gold 200 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: standard study of why we're supposed to be medicating our 201 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 1: ADHD kids shows that it's not working at all. In fact, 202 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: the outcomes are worse. Those who continued to take it 203 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: for treatment of ADHD were not doing any better. They 204 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: were experiencing more negative effects than those who didn't. So 205 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: when I see this headline and I see this study 206 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: that's come out of Deacon saying, shock horror, We've got 207 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: this research showing that ADHD medication leads to lower quality 208 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: of life for ADHD kids on Ritlin than for their 209 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: non drug taking peers. Everyone's shocked by it. But we've 210 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: had this data now for twenty years. This has been 211 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: published data for twenty years. And we've got a brand 212 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: new study here in Australia that is just adding to 213 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: a growing body of evidence that's saying can we please 214 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: stop drugging the kids now? I know if you're a 215 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 1: parent whose kids are taking the medication and it's made 216 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: all the difference, I know it's going to sound like 217 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: I'm just being unfair and I'm being dismissive and I'm 218 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: being invalidating. That's not what I'm getting at here. What 219 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: I'm getting at is that the pharmaceutical companies, Big Farmer 220 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: and the mental health industrial complex have bought shoddy science, 221 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: probably paid for shoddy science realistically, and it's affecting our kids. 222 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: Now we've got a brand new Australian study that is 223 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: drawing a line in the sound and saying we've got 224 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: the data four thousand Australian kids and the ones who 225 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,959 Speaker 1: are taking the medication are the ones that are worse off. Now, 226 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: it could be some people would argue, well, actually it's 227 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: the ones who are worse off feel taken the medication. 228 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: But that's not what study after study and now starting 229 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: to point to. Here's the take home message. Don't pull 230 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: your kids off the drugs just because you've listened to 231 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,839 Speaker 1: this podcast, but start to read more. Go and look 232 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: up what's going on with this MTA study and the 233 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: three year follow up. I'll publish the links to these 234 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: studies in the show notes. Have a close look at it. 235 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: Talk to your pediatrician, talk to your child an adolescent 236 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: psychologists or psychiatrists. Talk to your gp and figure out 237 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: if there are other ways that we can do this 238 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: because your child doesn't have a problem. Thinking that your 239 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: child has a problem is often the bigger problem. But 240 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: if we can work with the challenges that our children 241 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: are having and say no, my child is struggling with something, 242 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: rather than my child is a problem. Let's work with 243 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: our children. We can amend and adjust our environments, ideally 244 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: in ways that are going to be positive for them. 245 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: And helpful for them. If they're struggling at school, it 246 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's your child. It could be the school environment. 247 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: Like schools are not necessarily great places for every child, 248 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: as we've discovered in our own family. Kyle, you've been 249 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: really quiet. I've had a lot to say. I've been 250 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: geeking out on the science. I appreciate that your eyes 251 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: are still open and you're still awake. Is there anything 252 00:13:58,280 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: that pops into your head as we wrap up this 253 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: pod you want to raise? 254 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 2: I think for me, the standout is just reiterating your 255 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 2: child is not the problem. They really aren't. And one 256 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 2: of the main reasons we pulled our daughter out of 257 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: school was because she was seen as a problem. And 258 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 2: the change that we saw in her when she came 259 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 2: home to a safe environment that she felt comfortable in. 260 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 2: It's chalk and cheese. Predictability, consistency, and calm place such 261 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 2: a huge part in our children being able to navigate 262 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 2: this world. 263 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: Okay, heavy conversation, Thanks for listening, hopefully. I mean, here's 264 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: the thing. We're not trying to change your mind. We're 265 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: not trying to convince you that everything that you've been 266 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: doing and everything you've been told is wrong. The purpose 267 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: of these conversations is to provoke thinking and to increase intentionality. 268 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: There's so much value in being willing to rethink your assumptions. 269 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 2: The challenge for the average mumal dad is that we 270 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 2: go and see specialists. We go and see people who 271 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 2: are experts in their field, trusting and we trust that 272 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: they know what's best, and we take for granted that 273 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 2: they just know what they know. 274 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, you can feel so helpless hearing you say that. 275 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: It's like we've sat there with medical professionals with our 276 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: own kids and just gone, well, we're not the expert here. 277 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: We were just trusting you that you've gone deep into 278 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: the answers so that you can tell us where to go. 279 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: And I just think as individuals we need to recognize 280 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: that everybody is giving the best information they have with 281 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 2: what they have, but they don't have everything. 282 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, give yourself some grace, give your kids some grace, 283 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: and potentially even give your GP or your psychologists some grace. 284 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: But also, if you know something new, investigate it, learn 285 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: about it, and have the conversation because it could actually 286 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: make a change for the better for you. 287 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 2: And I think you've got to follow your gut like 288 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 2: I honestly, so many times I've sat in rooms with 289 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 2: professionals and have just not felt like what they're sharing 290 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 2: is best for me or my family. 291 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: Yeah they'reetting it wrong, Yeah, and that's okay. 292 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 2: It doesn't make them a bad person, but it's not 293 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 2: right for me and having I guess the I don't 294 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 2: know guts to say that, I really appreciate your advice. 295 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 2: I think I'm going to go looking elsewhere because this 296 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 2: doesn't sit right with me right now. 297 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: Links to the studies are in the show notes. The 298 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. 299 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: Mimhammonds provides additional research, amen and other support. If you'd 300 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: like more info about how you can guide your children 301 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: through their tricky situations, especially if you're raising neurodivergent kids, 302 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: check out The Parenting Revolution. You'll get so much from it. 303 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: That and a whole lot of other resources are available 304 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: at Happy families dot com dot a u Oh, and 305 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: check out my ADHD course Game Changer right there.