WEBVTT - Fred & Rose West 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:04.960 In May nineteen ninety two, Gloucester Police in England received 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:08.280 a tip that a young teenage girl had opened up 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:11.240 about having been sexually abused by her father. 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:12.160 Oh god. 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:15.880 The girl had nine siblings, only seven of whom still 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:20.480 lived at home at twenty five Cromwell Street. The two 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:22.920 no longer lived there, had left of their own accord, 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:27.720 or had they. Police had no idea that this one 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:30.880 tip would end up uncovering one of the most horrific 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:34.480 stories they would ever hear, and we will ever hear, 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:39.400 I hope, of the most heinous crimes, including multiple murders 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:45.080 over twenty years. Twenty years committed by a husband and wife. 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:48.280 Oh my god, this is the story of the House 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:51.360 of Horrors and Fred and Rosemary West. 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:53.440 Oh my god, I know this story, and I don't 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:55.600 know this story, so I'm very excited to hear you 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:56.320 tell this story. 0:00:56.520 --> 0:01:01.280 Unfortunately, after researching this one deeply, I know it very well. 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:29.000 Hey there, everybody, welcome to not another crime podcast. You 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:31.600 love and I'm back, I'm saying Peterson, and I'm back. 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:37.280 You're always, I'm always, and I am not as always. 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:40.400 If you want to skip ahead and just listen to 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:44.760 the story, the time code is in the show notes. 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:46.440 And we're not going to yab it for too long. 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:51.160 You're going too long. It is absolutely but g love. 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:52.480 You've been sick recently. 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:56.400 Oh my god. I feel like our listeners who haven't 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:00.960 known me before this year will think I'm all sick 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.760 and or on holidays. And I will say that this 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:06.800 year has been permeated by both of those. 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:07.919 Yes it has. 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:11.440 I'm not usually this sick. I've been very rundown. 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:12.760 Are you usually this holiday? 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:18.160 Yes? I don't understand the point of working if it's 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:20.880 not to spend your money on travel like that is 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:23.840 the biggest said it just then, and I'll say it 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.080 again later when you least expect it. So yes, I 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:30.200 do travel a lot sometimes holidays. Sometimes it's work, sometimes 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:34.160 it's both. But I have been sick often this year. 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.000 It's not fun for me. It's also not fun for you, 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.280 as my podcast partner. It's not fun for the listeners 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:43.000 who are like this bitch. Like the whole one of 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:45.080 this podcast when it started was like, I'm a journal 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:47.360 so I'm going to tell you crime stories, and it's. 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:51.919 It's been a lot of years. 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:57.480 That's right, So yes, thank you very much for carrying me. 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:01.240 I've just been so rundown, so sick, and then I 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:04.480 finally got over like the LOGI part of it that 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:07.080 stopped me from physically getting out of bed for a 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:12.480 full week, the lurgy, and when I finally could get 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:16.520 out of bed again, my body punished me by just 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:20.120 simply removing my voice, which is also fun for my 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:21.360 job as a radio. 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:23.680 Yeah, of course, so what you've been producing this week. 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:26.440 Has been producing. I have literally not been able to speak, 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.560 so I've just been writing stuff for everyone, just been 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:33.000 you know, real a guy around the office, and finally 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:35.640 today I was back on air. I know I always 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:37.760 have a husky voice, but I'm also where it is 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.520 huskier than usual. But I'm back and I'm going to 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:44.040 do I think the longest story I've ever done, which 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:47.280 is great to do with asky voice. So apologize if 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:52.040 there's some like reverse ASMI stuff happening. If your ASMR 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:57.080 kink is coughing, is husky voices, You're welcome. 0:03:57.520 --> 0:03:59.960 You're welcome. God, You're welcome, And thank you to your 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.000 crazy for filling love my God. 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:04.600 Thank you to Joel. So. Joel has been a dear 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.960 friend of mine for I think like eight or nine 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:14.120 years now, and I love him and Australia loves him, 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:16.600 and we asked. 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.120 Him on this podcastle I was always telling. 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:26.719 Him he laughs. And then when he finally came on, 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:29.280 all on him here. Thank you Joel, Thank you Sammy 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:33.520 as always for just being the goddamn best and somehow 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:41.039 just always delivering. Well, you're just the best anyway. One 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:45.240 thing that has happened it is important to mention since 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:49.039 we last recorded you and I together, is that Wicked 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.160 for Good has been released. Yes, I'm not going to 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:54.520 harp on it too much, but it would be remiss 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.240 of me not to bring it up. Also, it is 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:00.760 at the forefront of my mind every second in the day, so. 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:01.640 I happy to bring it out. 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:01.840 YEA. 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:05.000 Theater girlies have always known Jonathan Balley is the sexiest 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:05.520 man alive. 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:09.719 So who is this person? So he is? So he's 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:11.280 a Broadway. 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:16.160 Who Okay, he's English. He started as a West End performer, 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:21.160 he was. He became more commercially known when he featured 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:25.599 in Bridgeton and now he is very world famous and 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:29.160 will go down in history as playing Fierro in both 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:34.440 of the playing in both of the Wicked movies. And 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:38.719 this year he has been voted People's Sexiest man Alive. 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.600 And actually I think that was announced when I was 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:44.640 last recording, But since then Wicked for Good has come 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:46.800 out and I just like. 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:52.279 We got passed up again again again Anthony Wig that's right, 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:52.760 he is. 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:56.080 The first openly gay man to be named People's sexiest 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:56.520 man alive. 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:59.159 Really, what about David Williams, He's. 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:00.159 Never actually been named? 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:08.359 Really otten everyone great reference. 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:12.560 He is the sexiest man alive. I am so deeply 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:16.520 obsessed with him. That's not about Wicked, that's just about him. 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:19.840 He's really hot. Just anyway, Wicked for Good has been 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:25.920 torn apart by critics. Really, I will say the only 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:26.680 thing I'm gonna. 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:34.640 Sun's first worship No, you know, sorry, I'll put that 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.520 on myself when people comment on something haven't actually seen. 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:39.840 I have heard that it is the worsho of all time. 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:42.800 It has also been renewed, renewed for a second season. 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:45.800 I think there has been so much hate watching, which 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:52.600 I understand because Mum and Me Too is inarguably the 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:55.520 worst movie of all time, and I think it six 0:06:55.600 --> 0:07:02.080 times the Austronimo My Mummy or with a double M 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.800 to the musical is the worst movie of all time 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:07.640 and one. 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:11.080 Of my favorites say you can't rag on your employee 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:11.320 like that. 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:17.560 I watched it actually get on the weekend through the 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:22.720 People's We Could. Two has been not torn apart, but 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.040 it's it's critics of how to go at it. 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:26.960 Yeah, right. 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:29.440 I have two things to say about that. One is 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:36.320 one is people are talking about it as a piece 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:41.600 of cinema that has been created this year. It is 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:44.720 the second half of a musical that was written and 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.480 it has been released since two thousand and three, so 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:50.680 the story has already written. Stop commenting on that is 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:51.520 my first thing to say. 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:51.880 Yes. 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:58.320 The second thing to say is people always rag on 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.640 things that are popular, and that wasn't meant to be 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:05.200 a wicked one, but it happened to be, and particularly 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:08.720 that women really like. And that's just gonna be my 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:13.120 only feminist rant for today that just because it's popular 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:15.680 and women love it does not mean you have to 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:16.240 say it shit. 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:17.800 That's right. 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:21.480 Cynthia Arrivo singing No Good Deed was an out of 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:23.800 body experience for me and no one can take that 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:24.360 away from me. 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.560 And Anthony Lloyd Webbert wrote that and retired, and he's 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:30.160 lived a very comfortable life. 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:31.760 I think it's time to get in today's story. 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:34.320 Well, no, it's okay, so you liked it though, you 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:34.960 thought it was good. 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:39.040 So I enjoyed the first one more the first. So 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.120 if you haven't seen Wicked the movies, it's not a 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:46.240 movie and a sequel. It is one story. 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:46.760 Cut in half. 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:51.200 Yeah, and it is the musical cut in half, but 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.200 not enough. The first half of the musical and the 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:56.520 second half of the musical. The second act of the 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:00.880 musical is significantly shorter than the first. Added two new 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.160 songs to the second Wicked movie. 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:06.199 Which suck, which intended. 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:12.400 The new song suck. I'm very happy to. 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:13.559 Say that new songs wedged in. 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:17.000 Two new songs. They both absolutely. 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.439 Suck, levitating Julia No. 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:24.240 But as cliches that the one that alphabar the Wicked 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:27.840 Witch things is called There's No Place Like Home. It's 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:33.800 like they gave school kids an assignment a song to 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.520 write a song that the Wicked Witch would have sung, like, Oh, 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.680 There's no plates like Home. Oh so unique. The other 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.400 song of Glinda sings, it's called The Girl and the Bubble. 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:45.959 They're both shit. They're both basic anyway, whatever, we'll move 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:50.040 on from that. The second half or the second act 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:53.960 of the musical is not as good as the first. 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:58.080 The first half is way more upbeat, fun, happy, musical 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.559 dancing sing along. The second art is dark and deep 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:06.160 and emotional. The second movie, to me, was less an 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.520 enjoyable experience, but it's meant to be like that. It's 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:15.479 not an enjoyable experience. It is a deeply emotional, beautiful, devastating, 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:20.280 heartbreaking experience. And I said I would say two things 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:21.960 about it. The third thing I will say about people. 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:29.920 Can the men male critics saying the second movie was 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:34.280 not as good do and will never understand the depth 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:39.760 and complexities of female friendships. That's all I have to say, 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:41.839 thank you and good night. 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:45.319 And Andrew Lord Webber would be spinning in his Grave's 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:53.040 not He's not. 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:58.320 Definitely definitely posted on Instagram today. He posted on Instagram. 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.400 Okay, at the time recording, Angela Webber. 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:03.839 Don't put the mos on Andrew. 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:06.360 Because Max Paul Sheffield is still alive, so I imagine 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:07.320 they're similar ages. 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.439 If no, no, no, I'm not even going to say it's okay. 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.400 At the time of recording, he is not dead. And 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:15.280 if this comes out on Monday and Andrela Webber is 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:16.120 still not dead. 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:18.800 Then we have, as in often another crime podcast where 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:21.240 we investigate where the Sammy murdered and. 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:25.200 I was nowhere near there at the time. Hey, enjoy 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:29.040 this week's episode. Please the word well yeah, I know. 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:32.000 Please do leave us a five star rating, five star review. 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:34.400 The more you share this podcast around, the more we 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.040 can keep doing it. We love doing this podcast, so 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:43.640 please do continually share this with a friend, friends ends, 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:47.679 lots of them, heaps of friends and rating. Leave if 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:50.800 you want, leave a five star rating, five star review. 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:51.839 Can they follow us? 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:55.959 Yes, they can on Instagram and TikTok, both of them 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.719 have the same handle not Another Crime Podcast. They can 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:02.760 also email us at Sammy at just Another podcast dot 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:05.520 com dot are you just an the company? 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:07.760 Do it? Do it again? Quick? You got it? 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:12.440 They can email us at Sammy at just Another company 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:13.480 dot com dot. 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:15.920 You that was good that episode? 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:18.040 Is this like forty seven or forty yeah? 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:22.320 And also a voicemail which we call a speak pipe 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.240 is the website. All of the links are in. 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:26.960 The show and if you do so, we'll play it 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:27.520 in the mailbox. 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:33.480 Believe it will play it, hey, enjoy again listen, listen 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:34.840 to this week's episode. 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:41.640 Listen to this episode, and if you are negatively affected 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:45.000 by it, yes, don't leave a review about that. Yes, 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:47.559 email us about that. Yeah, but still leave a five 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:49.360 star rating for the podcast in general. 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:53.280 And Andreela Webber, May you rest or not rest in peace? 0:12:54.400 --> 0:13:00.160 This is This is this week's episode. 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:07.880 This episode, All of our episodes that deal with crime 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:10.439 obviously come with trigger warnings. I want to give some 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.400 really strong trigger warnings up the top of this one. 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:18.640 In particular, it deals with the deaths of children and 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:22.760 physical and sexual abuse of adults and children. Now I 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.800 won't go I don't go into detail about the sexual abuse, 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:32.320 but it does come up unfortunately, So lots of trigger 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:36.160 warnings here. All right, are you ready? 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:38.960 No? 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:43.440 Fred West was born in nineteen forty one in rural 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:47.320 Herod for Shit and now Herod for Shit. Yes, I 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:52.800 think it's that, like Leicester is Leicester not life. I 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:55.600 think it's Herod for shit, har for ship, Herod for shit, 0:13:56.320 --> 0:14:00.560 and I apologize if it's not. In England into a 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:06.559 large and economically struggling family. His parents were named Walter 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:09.600 and Daisy, which sounds like a Disney couple, it. 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.360 Does, and also like very British as well, Walter, they. 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:16.160 Were not a Disney couple, that's right. Oh yeah, maybe. 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:16.400 That's why. 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.240 My brain is not that like. It's pretty easy to read. 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:27.160 Fred was the second of eight children, but two of 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:31.840 his siblings died during all shortly after childbirth. Okay, Fred 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:35.120 was born a year after Daisy's first daughter, Violet, had died. 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:39.480 By all accounts, Fred was very much Daisy's favorite, even 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:42.880 above her husband. Because of this, he did not have 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.840 a good relationship with his father, Walter, because you know, 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:49.000 being jealous of a baby is totally normal and. 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.800 Fine, normal and fine and cool and actually pretty cool. 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:54.680 The living space where they lived on a farm was 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:59.240 very cramped. The bathrooms were simply buckets, and they ate 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:01.920 a lot of the time. All the children ate in 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.880 a day was the unpasteurized milk Dad would bring home. 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:06.200 Oh wow, okay. 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:09.760 Despite being very much loved by his mother at home, 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.280 it was not a good upbringing and he did not 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:15.600 have good relationships otherwise. Fred was bullied for being a 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.960 mummies boy him and was described as dim, which it's 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:23.000 not a nice way to describe someone. But I enjoy. 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:24.680 That work dim is dim is a fun way to 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:25.640 describe very. 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:27.480 Like you can see it's like a light. 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:29.720 Not yeah, yeah, it makes total sense when you say it, 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:31.920 but everyone knows exactly what you mean if you've never 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:32.600 heard the wood. 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:34.000 And also were allowed to call for a dim because 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:37.400 he's much worse than that. His brothers, Doug and John 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:41.800 in particular, really hated him, and they would all the 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:45.840 siblings would be physically punished by their father. Fred dropped 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:49.640 out of school early. He was academically stunted, but he 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:53.000 was dim exactly. But also there were questions raised about 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:59.000 whether he was also stunted in other areas, particularly socially, emotionally, 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.960 and even sexually. He would later say he was sexually 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:07.600 abused by his mother, but I'm very much noting that 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.800 he was the only one that ever said this. His 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.720 brothers have come out and said that they don't believe 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:19.640 it to be true at all of Fred's accusations, and 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:25.640 they may be, but Fred is not reliable perhaps a 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:31.080 reliable source. And that his dad taught him about sex 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.800 by showing him how to do it, not on him, 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:36.560 but I don't need to go now. But his dad 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.920 taught him about sex, which is not very nice. By 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:42.720 his mid teens, Fred had developed a very strong interest 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:47.280 in the female sex and in the idea of sex. 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.160 If he saw a girl he wanted, he would go 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:52.200 for it whether he wanted it or not. And I 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.480 don't mean in sexual I'm not insinuating rape, but he 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:58.720 would just you know, like physically grab it girl and 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:01.800 try to get them to come with him. And like 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.320 at dances and on the streets, he was grabby and 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:09.120 touchy and yuck. He had a bad motorbike accident in 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:12.680 nineteen fifty eight and he was in a coma hanging 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:17.199 sorry what does that make him? About sixteen seventeen and 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:19.080 he was in a coma for a week. They didn't 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:20.600 know if he would sig week. 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:22.840 Yeah, oh wow. It must have been a really bad one. 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:26.399 Very bad. He slowly regained the ability to speak, but 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:29.399 he had a significant head injury, and it's not known 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:35.320 if this caused lasting brain damage, plus a severe fear 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:40.800 and hatred of hospitals full shadowing. During his recovery, he 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:42.959 would still go out and try to live a normal life. 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:45.919 But after the accident, everyone in his life noted a 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:49.600 big change in his attitude, particularly when it came to anger. 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.719 He became much more aggressive and angered very quickly. 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:57.120 He didn't seem great before the start, so exactly he. 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.320 Told people who was deeply unhappy living at them and 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:04.080 living under his parents' rule. In the early sixties, he 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:08.040 started to get in regular trouble with the law, mostly shoplifting, 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:11.399 petty thefts, and fights. The worst of his crimes at 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:15.200 this time was that he had sexually assaulted his young 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:18.960 teenage sister. He didn't understand why his parents and the 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:23.159 police were so angry. He admitted while being questioned to 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:26.560 assaulting multiple young women and girls and didn't realize why 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:27.679 everyone had a problem with this. 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:30.320 Oh my god. I guess if like, you know, not 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:32.960 excuse him this at all. But I think, like, if 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.159 his dad has shown him certain things, he's obviously got 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:39.200 a very warped sense of what's right and what's wrong. 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.640 Yeah, that's kind of all this background, I suppose, from 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:47.080 all the research suggests in absolutely no way, shape or 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:51.159 form excusing or explaining anything, but it does. There is 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.960 a lot about the multiple head injuries. I haven't gone 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:57.480 into the others, but there were other things like fights 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.520 where he had bad knocks to the head and hear. 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.439 Him talk as well. He does, like his voice is 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:05.680 kind of it's a strange voice. 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.840 Yeah, well he's got a very very low IQ and 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:12.159 so yeah, I mean the way I've put it is 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:17.040 stunted in kind of all aspects of you know, emotion, 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:19.320 social interactions, everything. 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:19.720 Sure. 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:25.360 In nineteen sixty two, he met eighteen year old Rena, 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:29.399 who was also described as a difficult child. Again was 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:32.560 in trouble for petty theft fighting. She'd been moved around 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:34.879 to different family members to try to bring her back 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:38.720 on track. She was actually from Glasgow but was living 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:41.119 in England where and when she met Fred. 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:44.880 Just a side note, that's my favorite accent in the Glaswegian. 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:48.960 Accent Glasgow, exactly exactly right. The only favorite, the way 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:52.719 I can think of a Scottish accent is this one 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:55.919 a little bit, this one sentence that's from like a 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:59.240 little nursery rhyme type thing that my friend Shanaid, who 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:03.720 is Scottish, taught me. I don't know the rest of 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:09.720 the rhyme, but one because Dani wertruzers, Oh great, that's 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:15.200 maybe what Marina sounds Dan and Shrek. Come on, do Shrek? 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:16.639 I know you want to come on? 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.399 I don't know what the regular phrase I used to 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:23.960 say as Shrek was, but it was like gama swamp, 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:29.600 don't queer? Was that said exactly that? 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:31.760 So? 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:34.800 Yes, Rena was Glaswegian but living in England when she 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:39.080 met Fred. She was working as a sex worker. And 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:43.560 when she met Fred she was pregnant to a Pakistani man. 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:46.879 It is speculated that she may have moved to England 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:50.359 because her family didn't agree with the pregnancy right, particularly 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:52.639 given it was going to be a mixed race child. 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:53.800 And this was the sixties. 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:55.679 Was it sixties? 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:58.679 She was years old? Oh my god, And you imagine 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:00.800 sex work at that time. They didn't call it that, 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:05.320 but sex work. You imagine just how horrible that would 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:05.960 have been for her. 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:11.000 Yeah, and the racism with it as well. Right, But 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:15.080 when she met Fred, they quickly got into a relationship, 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.719 and when her baby daughter arrived, the couple told people 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:21.399 that she had actually lost her baby during childbirth and 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:27.280 they had adopted this baby to explain why the baby 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:30.399 girl had darker skin than both of her parents. The 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:31.879 baby's name was Charmaine. 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:37.719 Have you seen the film The Jerk with Steve Martin 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:41.000 and his and he's grown up and finds out he's adopted, 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:44.359 and he's with a clearly African American, beautiful family and 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:46.080 he finds out he's adopted that like when he was 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:50.240 like twenty years like Elf, Yeah, it's exactly like als well, 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:51.240 Elf as well. 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:52.960 If he doesn't know he's a human by now. 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:53.119 He's. 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:58.000 Beautiful because my brother was adopted. And I think, you know, 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:02.280 it can be hard sometimes realizing that you feel different 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:05.640 or you're look different or anything. And you know, obviously 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:07.560 back then that would have been harder. You know, my 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:11.119 parents found it hard to explain to people, you know, 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:13.080 you just so, so I imagine at this time it 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:15.439 would have been even harder, Oh God, to explain. 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:17.320 Yeah, and isn't that awful as well? But you know, 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:20.560 people just go, well, why yeah, exactly. A friend of 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:24.760 mine is adopted. She was born in Korea and was 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:28.520 adopted to an Australian family, a white Australian family, and 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:33.040 she said she didn't have any concept that she didn't 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:36.679 look the same as her until she started school and 0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:38.760 people asked her why she looked different to her perpent 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:40.360 Oh wow, isn't that fast? 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:44.080 Quickly? I found a book when I was really young, 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:46.439 and the book was called why am I adopted? And 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:47.159 I thought it for me? 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:53.879 Oh my god, Sammy, Oh stop, I'm just picturing kittling 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:56.000 face kid photos. 0:22:55.640 --> 0:22:58.840 I've seen of you, just asking the question. Oh. 0:22:58.920 --> 0:23:00.800 My sister always tried to tell me I was adopted 0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:02.879 because she didn't like me and my mom. I like 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:04.280 the spitting image. 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:04.840 Of it, exactly. 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:11.360 Yeah, all right, So baby Charmain arrived in nineteen sixty two. 0:23:14.680 --> 0:23:18.239 Fred became very obsessed with Rena, very quickly, thinking she 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:20.920 was quite worldly and wild. You know, she'd come from 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:24.800 a different country, she you know, had a baby, she'd 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:29.480 been working in the sex industry. He would demand sex 0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:33.679 from her whenever he wanted it, and yeah, and Rena 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:38.480 essentially felt she had no choice. She also became obsessed 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:40.840 with him in what I am describing as a very 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:44.639 toxic way. She tattooed his name onto her with a 0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:45.920 backyard tattoo pin. 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:50.760 Oh wow, that would be so painful and not highland 0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:51.080 as well? 0:23:51.240 --> 0:23:53.280 Yeah also that also that, Yeah, don't do that at home. 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:57.880 It's been suggested that Rena was likely seeking stability and 0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:01.119 the love she felt she didn't otherwise have in her life. 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:04.400 They married in nineteen sixty two, the year they met 0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:09.440 Fred aged twenty one and Rena eighteen. They moved out 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:12.600 together back to Scotland, where Rena was from, with baby Charmain. 0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:18.960 Fred kept his worrying sexual behaviors up and encouraged Rena 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:21.280 to go back to sex work to help them make money, 0:24:21.680 --> 0:24:24.359 but he would berate and punish her for sleeping with 0:24:24.400 --> 0:24:27.439 other people. It seemed he really used this as a 0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:32.000 form of serious control and manipulation. He essentially brought up 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:35.240 baby Charmain as his own, but he didn't ever really 0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:40.600 bond with her. Fred and Rena together biologically this time, 0:24:40.680 --> 0:24:44.640 had a second baby, Anna Marie, in nineteen sixty four, 0:24:44.840 --> 0:24:48.080 only a little over a year older than Charmain. As 0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:53.280 soon as she arrived, Fred neglected Charmain even more. In 0:24:53.359 --> 0:24:56.600 nineteen sixty five, Fred was working as an ice cream 0:24:56.680 --> 0:25:01.480 van driver, which like our yeah, so when you know 0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:04.719 it's not gross to be ice cream. This is one 0:25:04.760 --> 0:25:06.440 of the most heinous men in history. 0:25:06.560 --> 0:25:07.080 And like. 0:25:09.280 --> 0:25:12.200 By then the marriage was really faltering. He was cheating 0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:15.080 on Rena a lot, and over time he didn't even 0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:18.400 try to hide it. Rena hide a nanny to help 0:25:18.440 --> 0:25:22.239 look after the girls. Her name was Isa McNeil. She 0:25:22.280 --> 0:25:24.040 moved in with them and was helping them. She was 0:25:24.240 --> 0:25:29.520 a teenage girl herself. Isa described Rena and Fred's marriage 0:25:29.520 --> 0:25:33.400 as very tumultuous and very violent. He said, the sorry, 0:25:33.440 --> 0:25:35.359 she said. The little girl slept in a bottom bunk 0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:38.959 with bars fitted to essentially cage them in, and they 0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:41.680 were only allowed out while Fred was at work. Oh 0:25:41.760 --> 0:25:44.240 my god, a friend of Isa's. 0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:46.240 I guess, so he wouldn't guess. 0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:49.720 He was so violent and youk but also he just didn't. 0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:52.439 He didn't want them around. He wanted his time and 0:25:52.480 --> 0:25:57.680 his peace at home alone. A friend of Isa's, so 0:25:57.760 --> 0:26:00.520 is the nanny. A friend of hers named Anne four, 0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:03.679 who was also from Scotland, came over to England and 0:26:03.680 --> 0:26:06.080 spent a lot of time at the home as well. 0:26:06.200 --> 0:26:09.000 She was sixteen. Her boyfriend had been killed in a 0:26:09.000 --> 0:26:12.040 workplace accident and she really leant on her friend Issa 0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:15.159 for support and essentially ended up boarding with Fred and 0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:20.639 Rena as well. In November of the same year, baby 0:26:20.680 --> 0:26:24.080 Anna Marie was born, Fred accidentally hit and killed a 0:26:24.160 --> 0:26:25.720 child with the ice cream van. 0:26:25.960 --> 0:26:27.680 Oh how horrific, and it was. 0:26:27.680 --> 0:26:31.080 Ruled that this was totally an accident. How horrific for 0:26:31.160 --> 0:26:34.760 everyone involved with that, but the town very much turned 0:26:34.920 --> 0:26:39.119 against him. It would be very hard to see the 0:26:39.160 --> 0:26:42.920 person that that had been behind the wheel when that happened, 0:26:42.960 --> 0:26:45.920 whether they were deemed responsible or not. So Fred made 0:26:45.960 --> 0:26:48.080 the decision to move back to England. He didn't want 0:26:48.119 --> 0:26:51.040 to live in this town anymore. He took the two 0:26:51.119 --> 0:26:54.480 baby girls and moved, while Rena set herself up to 0:26:54.560 --> 0:26:56.560 move as well. I don't really I couldn't really find 0:26:56.600 --> 0:26:59.240 out why she didn't move straight away as well. I 0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:00.399 don't know if it was a bit of he just 0:27:00.400 --> 0:27:02.040 went I'm getting out of be By and then she 0:27:02.160 --> 0:27:03.720 was like, okay, hang on, let me come. But three 0:27:03.720 --> 0:27:05.640 months later she moved over and joined them as well, 0:27:06.160 --> 0:27:07.240 and she also brought I. 0:27:07.160 --> 0:27:08.520 Thought that might have been a split. I thought that 0:27:08.600 --> 0:27:09.840 might have been a way to get out. 0:27:12.760 --> 0:27:16.960 She brought Isa McNeil and Anne McFall, the two kind 0:27:16.960 --> 0:27:19.800 of pseudo well you know, nanny and kind of border 0:27:19.920 --> 0:27:24.440 slash nanny with her back to England as well. Both 0:27:24.480 --> 0:27:27.119 these girls came from very poor backgrounds and hoped England 0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:28.920 would be a better place for them to find jobs 0:27:28.960 --> 0:27:34.080 and make a start on new lives. They all so, Fred, Rena, 0:27:34.480 --> 0:27:37.919 Issa and the two baby girls all moved into a 0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:38.760 caravan together. 0:27:38.960 --> 0:27:41.280 Oh wow, crammed. 0:27:41.080 --> 0:27:43.359 And Fred found work as a lorry driver for a 0:27:43.400 --> 0:27:46.040 local abatoir, which I just feel like the only time 0:27:46.080 --> 0:27:56.879 I hear about people people who aren't think yeah. And 0:27:56.960 --> 0:27:59.960 Rina got a job at a local cafe. Fred did 0:28:00.119 --> 0:28:03.040 not stop his violent outbursts, and he also started turning 0:28:03.040 --> 0:28:08.000 on Isa in particular, as well as Rena and Nanny. 0:28:08.200 --> 0:28:12.159 So we kind of any female who was kind of 0:28:12.640 --> 0:28:15.800 living with him, and he saw us under his reign, 0:28:15.920 --> 0:28:18.040 and he could be violent and angry towards and he 0:28:18.080 --> 0:28:20.359 would blow up really quickly and really easily and be 0:28:20.480 --> 0:28:27.520 very violent. The three women together hatched a plan to 0:28:27.760 --> 0:28:30.119 escape Fred. They had had enough and they didn't want 0:28:30.160 --> 0:28:34.800 to be part of this anymore. They are. Rena actually 0:28:34.800 --> 0:28:37.280 called in an old boyfriend of hers to help get 0:28:37.320 --> 0:28:40.480 the mount while Fred was at work one day. I 0:28:40.480 --> 0:28:42.520 think it was Feathers mcral exactly. 0:28:42.640 --> 0:28:45.400 I'm not going to explain anything if you. 0:28:45.320 --> 0:28:47.240 Guys haven't listened to all the other episodes. 0:28:49.440 --> 0:28:50.800 One of the greatest criminals all times. 0:28:52.160 --> 0:28:54.360 You never really had much context to bring him up. 0:28:54.840 --> 0:28:57.520 I know, it's never come up in a natural way. 0:28:59.280 --> 0:29:03.479 So they made pre arranged time to have him come in, 0:29:03.560 --> 0:29:07.040 not feathers, this man come in and help them kind 0:29:07.080 --> 0:29:08.840 of pack up and leave while Fred was at work. 0:29:08.880 --> 0:29:09.880 Do you look like a penguin? 0:29:10.520 --> 0:29:12.479 I'm not sure. I didn't look up photos, but if 0:29:12.520 --> 0:29:15.520 you want to afterwards we can. It was a chicken 0:29:15.720 --> 0:29:17.640 he was meant to look No, he was a penguin. 0:29:17.640 --> 0:29:19.240 He was meant to look like a chitch. He got 0:29:19.240 --> 0:29:26.560 me again. At the pre arranged time, Fred unexpectedly came 0:29:26.600 --> 0:29:30.560 home and found them leaving. He was never home at 0:29:30.600 --> 0:29:35.360 this time, and both Rena and Isa noted that Anne 0:29:35.600 --> 0:29:38.719 didn't seem that surprised, and she was very calm at 0:29:38.760 --> 0:29:42.880 Fred's arrival. She stayed calm while Fred was obviously blowing 0:29:43.000 --> 0:29:46.520 up and tried to placate him. She said she would 0:29:46.520 --> 0:29:50.320 stay with him and the children if Fred was saying 0:29:50.320 --> 0:29:53.480 you're not taking my children anywhere, and was kind of saying, 0:29:53.520 --> 0:29:56.840 it's okay, I'll keep him calm. You guys go, we'll 0:29:56.880 --> 0:30:00.160 work this out later. So Rena and Issa left. They 0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:03.040 went back to Glasgow and left the two little girls 0:30:03.080 --> 0:30:07.120 with their violent and abusive father and this young border 0:30:07.280 --> 0:30:10.920 slash nanny and McFall. It wasn't until the women were 0:30:10.920 --> 0:30:13.800 back in Scotland, it was revealed what had gone on 0:30:14.400 --> 0:30:19.200 and Fred had been having an affair and told her 0:30:19.360 --> 0:30:21.360 that's why she wasn't surprised whinning him home, because she'd 0:30:21.400 --> 0:30:24.960 actually tipped him off, wanting them to go so they 0:30:25.000 --> 0:30:27.240 couldn't take the children and she could stay with him. 0:30:27.320 --> 0:30:28.080 Oh my god. 0:30:29.360 --> 0:30:31.960 And told her friends and family violetters that she'd become 0:30:32.000 --> 0:30:35.360 infatuated with Fred and believed that living in England with 0:30:35.440 --> 0:30:37.280 him would set her up for a good life, and 0:30:37.320 --> 0:30:40.120 she was trying to encourage him to divorce Rena and 0:30:40.200 --> 0:30:40.720 marry her. 0:30:41.040 --> 0:30:41.520 Wow. 0:30:43.720 --> 0:30:47.880 Over the coming couple of years, Rena was coming back 0:30:47.920 --> 0:30:49.920 and forth to see her children and try to take 0:30:49.960 --> 0:30:52.800 them back into her care, while also trying to remain 0:30:52.960 --> 0:30:55.160 kind of safe from Fred as well. 0:30:55.320 --> 0:30:56.880 Sure she was terrified of him. 0:30:57.000 --> 0:31:00.680 Fred was placing them in the care of social services 0:31:00.720 --> 0:31:02.800 on and off, so that's when she would come back. 0:31:02.800 --> 0:31:05.120 I'm gonna say that if they in social services care 0:31:05.240 --> 0:31:08.000 on their mother, I'll take them back, but they continued, 0:31:08.000 --> 0:31:10.640 I haven't gone into this here, but Reena and Fred 0:31:10.680 --> 0:31:14.760 continued on and off very toxic, very tumultuous relationship over 0:31:14.800 --> 0:31:18.120 this time as well. Whether it was you know, manipulation 0:31:18.160 --> 0:31:20.520 about being with the children, whether it was you know, 0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:24.840 parts of the jealousy of not wanting and to be 0:31:24.920 --> 0:31:27.360 with him or just wanting to keep the family together. 0:31:27.760 --> 0:31:28.720 But they were they. 0:31:28.640 --> 0:31:33.760 Were a little wit and stayed back and yeah wow yeah. 0:31:35.280 --> 0:31:38.840 In nineteen sixty seven, and fell pregnant with Fred's baby, 0:31:39.640 --> 0:31:41.960 but it seemed he was none too pleased about this 0:31:42.480 --> 0:31:44.760 by the time she was almost full term. When she 0:31:44.840 --> 0:31:47.680 was eight months pregnant, and left the home one day 0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:49.120 and Fred never saw her again. 0:31:49.920 --> 0:31:50.360 Wow. 0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:55.560 Over the next eighteen months, Fred spiraled downwards, which is 0:31:56.240 --> 0:31:58.840 pretty low from where he do any being. He was 0:31:58.920 --> 0:32:01.720 arrested multiple times for thefts, He lost his job as 0:32:01.760 --> 0:32:04.640 a driver. He put his kids back in the care 0:32:04.680 --> 0:32:08.600 of social services. But Fred's luck was about to change. 0:32:09.480 --> 0:32:12.360 After being a single dad kind of in and out 0:32:12.400 --> 0:32:15.520 of social service care for about eighteen months, he set 0:32:15.520 --> 0:32:19.280 his sights on a woman named Rosemary Lets or a 0:32:19.320 --> 0:32:24.000 girl I should say she was fifteen Fredan Fred at 0:32:24.040 --> 0:32:25.920 this time was twenty seven. 0:32:26.040 --> 0:32:26.880 Oh my god. 0:32:37.240 --> 0:32:40.560 He set his sights on a woman named Rosemary Lets 0:32:41.200 --> 0:32:44.880 or a girl I should say she was fifteen Fred 0:32:45.760 --> 0:32:48.000 Fred at this time was twenty seven. 0:32:48.120 --> 0:32:49.000 Oh my god. 0:32:50.080 --> 0:32:54.239 They met waiting for a bus. Rose initially said she 0:32:54.320 --> 0:32:59.000 was repulsed by Fred. He was dirty, unkempt, and creepy. 0:33:00.160 --> 0:33:03.480 Fred didn't let up. He showered her with attention and adoration, 0:33:03.680 --> 0:33:07.440 and this soon became quite flattering to the young Rosemary. 0:33:07.120 --> 0:33:09.280 Letts stayed in touch after meeting at a. 0:33:09.240 --> 0:33:13.040 Bus the same bus every day on the same okay, 0:33:13.360 --> 0:33:14.959 so met her at the bus so this first day, 0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:18.360 became infatuated with her. Kept going back to the same 0:33:18.360 --> 0:33:20.160 bus stop and they were getting the same bus. 0:33:20.200 --> 0:33:22.080 This is called a meat fowl, a. 0:33:22.120 --> 0:33:26.120 Meat foul exact, that's good fowl, like chicken, like I 0:33:26.200 --> 0:33:35.680 f you w l like feathers. He would like go 0:33:35.760 --> 0:33:37.720 to He found out where she worked and would go 0:33:37.760 --> 0:33:40.000 to the cafe and bring her gifts and flowers and 0:33:40.120 --> 0:33:43.800 was really trying to woo her, and it worked. The 0:33:43.840 --> 0:33:45.920 two started a relationship within weeks. 0:33:47.880 --> 0:33:51.080 After being repulsed by someone. That is such a wild turnaround. 0:33:52.520 --> 0:33:56.880 Oh sorry, I've missed a little paragraph here. Fred found 0:33:56.880 --> 0:33:59.600 her out that Rose hadn't ever had a boyfriend, but 0:33:59.760 --> 0:34:02.760 was quite promiscuous, and he really liked this. 0:34:03.480 --> 0:34:05.200 He liked that Rose was promiscuous. 0:34:05.280 --> 0:34:08.120 Yeah, okay, he also very much played up the sob 0:34:08.200 --> 0:34:10.880 story about being the single father to two little girls 0:34:10.880 --> 0:34:12.680 having been abandoned by their mother. 0:34:13.480 --> 0:34:16.000 Also like you might not know this information. 0:34:15.800 --> 0:34:17.920 But I know everything. I mean, you know that about me. 0:34:18.239 --> 0:34:21.920 If Rena has left of our own volition and everything. 0:34:22.800 --> 0:34:24.680 There was no obviously, because she was scared of him. 0:34:24.680 --> 0:34:26.360 There was no like court thing where it was like 0:34:26.400 --> 0:34:29.680 you have custody blah blah blah, because that the guy 0:34:29.880 --> 0:34:31.160 usually have the kids. 0:34:31.200 --> 0:34:35.080 Is that the I mean, I know that to be 0:34:35.800 --> 0:34:40.200 a generalization, but typically true these days. However, it wasn't 0:34:40.880 --> 0:34:43.960 so much so then. But that aside, that wasn't the 0:34:43.960 --> 0:34:46.200 case here because remember I they were like in kind 0:34:46.200 --> 0:34:50.560 of an on again, off again relationship. Like it wasn't. 0:34:50.680 --> 0:34:53.040 She wasn't saying I'm terrified you and I'm out for good. 0:34:53.120 --> 0:34:55.560 I want the kids back. Yep, there was. I don't 0:34:55.680 --> 0:34:58.480 know the details about if she ever tried to fight 0:34:58.520 --> 0:35:00.680 for custody or anything like that in the early days, 0:35:00.760 --> 0:35:02.799 or if she was trying to get them at dealer 0:35:02.840 --> 0:35:06.360 or she was just trying to argue with him for custody. Sure, okay, 0:35:06.880 --> 0:35:09.000 but no, it wasn't that they were you know, there 0:35:09.040 --> 0:35:11.080 was and there were any court orders. They weren't legally 0:35:11.120 --> 0:35:16.680 separated or anything. This sob story and the adoration and 0:35:17.280 --> 0:35:22.480 wooing and pursuing work. The two started a relationship, and 0:35:22.520 --> 0:35:25.799 within weeks Rose quit her job at the bakery to 0:35:25.920 --> 0:35:30.240 become a full time career for Fred's daughters. She noted 0:35:30.280 --> 0:35:32.960 they seemed neglected and she wanted to care for them. 0:35:33.600 --> 0:35:36.560 Fred would provide her with sufficient money to send to 0:35:36.640 --> 0:35:39.239 her family every Friday, so they didn't know she'd quit 0:35:39.280 --> 0:35:39.680 her job. 0:35:40.280 --> 0:35:42.279 Oh okay, and she was already doing that. She was 0:35:42.280 --> 0:35:44.000 already sending money to her family. 0:35:43.719 --> 0:35:47.480 And yeah, bringing money home, bringing money home, so you know, 0:35:47.520 --> 0:35:50.239 she'd get her paycheck every Friday. It was Fred giving her. 0:35:50.280 --> 0:35:53.759 So she'd go to work in invert commas and yeah 0:35:54.080 --> 0:35:54.920 and look after. 0:35:54.920 --> 0:35:58.160 And bakers famously aren't very good accounting because of the Baker's. 0:35:57.800 --> 0:36:01.080 Doesn't, because Baker's doesn't. 0:36:00.840 --> 0:36:04.880 Not a dozen thirteen, is it? Yeah? Why? Because I 0:36:05.080 --> 0:36:08.240 think the baker always wanted to have one for themselves. 0:36:08.719 --> 0:36:10.360 The older twelve for you, one for me. 0:36:10.760 --> 0:36:14.120 Literally, let me let me actually check that, because I 0:36:14.200 --> 0:36:17.279 have that. I made I made that up. 0:36:17.360 --> 0:36:19.279 My very first job was at Baker's Delight and I 0:36:19.520 --> 0:36:23.359 really that maybe the delight is that thirteenth role. 0:36:23.719 --> 0:36:27.120 Yeah, a baker's doesn't. And I'm just looked up images 0:36:27.160 --> 0:36:29.759 lovely bread I'm seeing right now. A baker's doesn't is 0:36:29.800 --> 0:36:33.239 thirteen items one more than a standard dozen twelve. The 0:36:33.320 --> 0:36:37.880 term originated from medieval English law that penalized bakers for 0:36:37.960 --> 0:36:42.080 selling underweight loads of bread. To avoid penalties, bakers would 0:36:42.120 --> 0:36:44.560 add an extra loaf to every dozen to ensure they 0:36:44.640 --> 0:36:46.040 met the legal weight requirement. 0:36:46.560 --> 0:36:47.840 I'm going to just make the rolls bigger. 0:36:47.920 --> 0:36:50.120 Yeah, I'm not sure about that, but yeah, but so 0:36:50.400 --> 0:36:51.960 they're not very good. That was my joke anyway, It 0:36:51.960 --> 0:36:52.520 doesn't really matter. 0:36:52.600 --> 0:36:53.040 It was good. 0:36:53.080 --> 0:36:53.360 Thank you. 0:36:53.440 --> 0:36:55.920 It was a good joke. I'm edited here and I'll 0:36:55.960 --> 0:37:00.520 go like this, of course, because of thirteen thirteen you're 0:37:00.640 --> 0:37:03.200 very good. You're very good, all right. A bit of 0:37:03.239 --> 0:37:09.080 background on Rosemary Pauline West. She was born in rural 0:37:09.080 --> 0:37:12.760 England in nineteen fifty three to parents Bill and Daisy. 0:37:12.880 --> 0:37:16.280 Let's Daisy again again. Well isn't that funny? 0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:17.000 Funny? 0:37:17.080 --> 0:37:23.920 Anyway? She was described as quote remarkably unintelligent dim Her 0:37:23.960 --> 0:37:27.520 brother said she was quote thick as two planks. 0:37:27.840 --> 0:37:29.080 You don't want to hear that from your brother. 0:37:29.480 --> 0:37:34.360 I kind of like love these like English. She was 0:37:34.400 --> 0:37:39.440 also described as very lazy and belligerent. She too, like Fred, 0:37:39.680 --> 0:37:44.000 had a very stunted upbringing. Both academically socially, I've written both, 0:37:44.000 --> 0:37:48.080 and then I've listed three things academically, socially and intellectually. 0:37:48.239 --> 0:37:51.480 You're bloody good as a counter as bloody baker. 0:37:51.760 --> 0:37:57.799 As cameras real real good at real well English, and 0:38:00.560 --> 0:38:01.239 I struggled to. 0:38:01.160 --> 0:38:03.120 Actually think of something that was pooring. 0:38:06.640 --> 0:38:10.040 In hindsight. When people found that out she was with Fred, 0:38:10.400 --> 0:38:13.360 people said that they weren't surprised that she ended up 0:38:13.400 --> 0:38:16.520 with an older man. She always wanted to feel grown 0:38:16.600 --> 0:38:18.920 up and like she could make it in the world 0:38:19.080 --> 0:38:22.640 without her parents and the proople who were calling her laziness, 0:38:22.640 --> 0:38:23.759 thick as two blanks. 0:38:23.520 --> 0:38:26.360 Yeah yeah, and not a loving family. They're calling her that, 0:38:26.440 --> 0:38:29.480 But also like the wildness of her only being fifteen 0:38:29.560 --> 0:38:30.399 years old. I didn't know. 0:38:30.400 --> 0:38:33.440 That fifteen and he was twenty seven. And the thing 0:38:33.560 --> 0:38:38.759 like age differences feel different at different stages of life, 0:38:39.040 --> 0:38:45.800 twenty seven is and fifteen. Anyway, after they had dated 0:38:45.800 --> 0:38:48.680 for a few months, Rose introduced Fred to her family 0:38:49.280 --> 0:38:51.040 and they were, and I want you to guess the 0:38:51.040 --> 0:38:51.839 next word I've used. 0:38:51.960 --> 0:38:54.640 Disgusted. Yes, yeah, it's actually good. 0:38:55.200 --> 0:38:59.680 They forbade her from dating Fred and said they would 0:38:59.680 --> 0:39:02.760 report him to social services if they ever saw him again, 0:39:03.880 --> 0:39:06.440 but she defied her parents' wishes. Well, like, what do 0:39:06.480 --> 0:39:09.520 you not say to a teenage girl? Don't do that. 0:39:10.880 --> 0:39:12.200 They're going to do it even harder. 0:39:12.480 --> 0:39:16.480 Yeap, do it. We love him. She said that reverse 0:39:16.480 --> 0:39:17.800 psychology exactly. 0:39:17.920 --> 0:39:19.239 I thought you were saying that to me. I was like, no, 0:39:19.360 --> 0:39:21.600 don't do it. This bad story, it is okay, Yeah, 0:39:22.840 --> 0:39:28.239 I was yeah, reverse psychologe genie or something. Yes. So 0:39:28.400 --> 0:39:33.560 she defied their wishes and her parents did report him. 0:39:34.120 --> 0:39:36.960 They reported, you report him to social services. He was 0:39:37.360 --> 0:39:40.520 seven and she was fifteen. She was ok under age 0:39:40.719 --> 0:39:45.799 under age relationship, and they also reported rumors, rumors they'd heard, 0:39:45.920 --> 0:39:49.319 all fears they had that she was engaging in sex work. 0:39:50.480 --> 0:39:52.840 Given she was a minor, she was taken into a 0:39:52.920 --> 0:39:56.560 home for troubled teenagers, only allowed home to her parents 0:39:56.640 --> 0:39:59.880 on weekends, and when she was home, she almost always 0:40:00.120 --> 0:40:03.960 went out and visited Fred. As soon as she turned sixteen, 0:40:04.320 --> 0:40:08.120 she left the state run home because she was now 0:40:08.320 --> 0:40:12.840 allowed to do something sixteen and straight into Fred's flat, 0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:16.400 in another sign that this guy was an absolute canch. 0:40:16.560 --> 0:40:19.640 Fred was actually in prison at the time of her 0:40:19.680 --> 0:40:24.960 sixteenth birthday and her release from the girl's home. He 0:40:25.040 --> 0:40:28.000 was serving thirty days for theft, so when he got out, 0:40:28.040 --> 0:40:31.359 he went and picked up Charmaine and Anne Marie, who 0:40:31.360 --> 0:40:35.120 had been placed in social services while he was in prison, 0:40:35.840 --> 0:40:40.120 and took the baby girl's home to his new girlfriend. 0:40:42.120 --> 0:40:44.760 In one last ditch attempt to get his daughter away 0:40:44.800 --> 0:40:48.120 from Fred, Bill Let's had her examined by a police 0:40:48.120 --> 0:40:54.000 surgeon and it was discovered she was pregnant. No she 0:40:54.120 --> 0:40:57.279 was again placed into care, but after a month it 0:40:57.360 --> 0:41:00.799 was agreed that she could leave under the street understanding 0:41:00.840 --> 0:41:03.520 she would terminate the pregnancy and return to her family. 0:41:03.719 --> 0:41:06.359 Who made that decision, I. 0:41:06.280 --> 0:41:10.239 Don't really understand how you can get somebody not examined 0:41:10.440 --> 0:41:12.920 without there Maybe it was something to do with like 0:41:13.000 --> 0:41:16.560 between sixteen and eighteen. Maybe at sixteen you are legally 0:41:16.560 --> 0:41:19.279 allowed to kind of go eversewhear, but until eighteen you're 0:41:19.320 --> 0:41:21.800 still under the legal guardianship of your parents. 0:41:21.840 --> 0:41:27.359 Perhaps different autonomy for that sort of yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. 0:41:29.360 --> 0:41:31.719 Yeah, So she agreed to that she would terminate the 0:41:31.719 --> 0:41:34.880 pregnancy and return her to her family. She did neither. 0:41:36.160 --> 0:41:40.279 Her defiance this time resulted in her father forbidding her 0:41:40.719 --> 0:41:44.279 from ever stepping foot back into the family home. Wow, 0:41:44.640 --> 0:41:47.200 he had tried really hard to protect her, to help her, 0:41:47.280 --> 0:41:50.880 she had defied him so severely, he said, in this case, 0:41:51.040 --> 0:41:53.480 we never want to see you again. You've made a choice. 0:41:53.520 --> 0:41:56.799 That's enormousn't it. Did you know what their family was 0:41:56.960 --> 0:41:59.919 like in terms of like, you know, even even socio 0:41:59.719 --> 0:42:02.880 can like, were they similar to Fred? 0:42:03.040 --> 0:42:03.360 Yes? 0:42:03.440 --> 0:42:04.880 They were, Yeah, right. 0:42:05.200 --> 0:42:09.160 I believe I didn't go heaps into yeah, into either 0:42:09.200 --> 0:42:12.279 of their upbringings because there's so freaking much to go, 0:42:15.000 --> 0:42:20.479 but they both were low kind of intellectual, like low IQ, 0:42:21.360 --> 0:42:26.239 low socioeconomic. I think that Fred was kind of lower socioecono. 0:42:26.400 --> 0:42:28.480 His family was lower socio economic. 0:42:28.520 --> 0:42:30.960 But it's hard because it's just like, you know, if 0:42:31.040 --> 0:42:35.719 they were this poor family that were like struggling as 0:42:35.760 --> 0:42:38.360 it was, and then they're trying to get their daughter away, 0:42:38.440 --> 0:42:40.880 and they're trying to do all this to make that decision, 0:42:41.000 --> 0:42:42.719 would be would be enormous. 0:42:42.800 --> 0:42:45.720 Yeah, it seems they were a lot kind of closer 0:42:45.719 --> 0:42:51.799 and more a more family than Fred's was. If I'm 0:42:51.800 --> 0:42:53.719 wrong on that, I do apologize. They didn't go deep 0:42:53.719 --> 0:42:57.080 into her background upbringing. 0:42:56.840 --> 0:42:59.239 The documentary on this on Netflix. Isn't that yeah, yeah, 0:42:59.320 --> 0:43:04.719 yeah is just watch that but don't know that, but 0:43:04.760 --> 0:43:08.800 also like there are very descriptive details in that that are. 0:43:09.160 --> 0:43:11.160 That's why I've put that at the end. 0:43:11.280 --> 0:43:12.839 Okay, well I didn't even know. 0:43:12.880 --> 0:43:15.040 So they listened this whole thing and they love it, 0:43:15.040 --> 0:43:17.920 and they've really connected and they love us, and they 0:43:17.920 --> 0:43:20.239 tell all their friends and family members to listen to 0:43:20.239 --> 0:43:22.520 this podcast. And at the end, I'm like, if you 0:43:22.560 --> 0:43:24.000 want to know more, guess what. 0:43:24.120 --> 0:43:26.799 Yeah, listen to this thing. Also if you want to 0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:28.560 know more, it is such. 0:43:29.080 --> 0:43:32.200 Don't you don't want to know more? But again, that's 0:43:32.239 --> 0:43:35.520 why she listened to this as they are they're hearing this. 0:43:36.480 --> 0:43:41.399 Love you guys. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. So here 0:43:41.440 --> 0:43:44.600 we have a twenty eight year old Fred, sixteen year 0:43:44.600 --> 0:43:47.879 old Rose, six year old Charmaine, and five year old 0:43:47.920 --> 0:43:50.680 and Marie and another baby on the way. 0:43:51.280 --> 0:43:54.760 Lipping, slipping, slipping, where. 0:43:56.200 --> 0:43:59.320 Living happily ever after? 0:44:00.080 --> 0:44:02.479 That's not true that I hate. 0:44:04.000 --> 0:44:08.359 I'm going to bring back not this is happy story nat. 0:44:09.080 --> 0:44:13.760 In October nineteen seventy, Rose gave birth to another baby 0:44:13.760 --> 0:44:18.480 girl named Heather. Another is her first, but they've got 0:44:18.520 --> 0:44:21.680 charm as well, named. 0:44:21.440 --> 0:44:23.640 Heather bring for Baker's three. 0:44:23.960 --> 0:44:31.879 Yeah, two months later, so two months after baby head, 0:44:31.960 --> 0:44:34.879 No it doesn't. I think a Baker's too were going on. 0:44:36.320 --> 0:44:40.000 I liked it though. Two months after Heather was born, 0:44:40.480 --> 0:44:44.200 Fred was imprisoned for six and a half months four 0:44:44.320 --> 0:44:47.680 theft so he was known. Oh yes, yeah, And there 0:44:47.680 --> 0:44:51.920 were many incidences of a lot of petty theft as 0:44:52.000 --> 0:44:55.640 kind of his go to violence, fights and things. 0:44:56.480 --> 0:44:57.920 That's the thing you don't always like. I mean to 0:44:58.080 --> 0:45:01.160 to uncover this later. You don't link those. 0:45:01.200 --> 0:45:05.440 Oh, there was a lot that was not linked. So 0:45:05.680 --> 0:45:09.480 Rose was left looking after all three girls on her 0:45:09.520 --> 0:45:13.520 own as a teenager. Charmaine and Anna Marie were told 0:45:13.520 --> 0:45:18.520 to refer to Rose as their mother. Rose didn't like 0:45:18.640 --> 0:45:21.319 being in charge of these three baby girl or two 0:45:21.320 --> 0:45:24.440 little girls and one baby on her own. The older 0:45:24.440 --> 0:45:28.800 girls were frequently subjected to criticism, beatings, and other forms 0:45:28.800 --> 0:45:32.280 of punishment under Rose's care. As soon as she had 0:45:32.520 --> 0:45:37.320 her own biological baby, Heather, she just had an absolute 0:45:37.360 --> 0:45:38.680 disdain for these two other. 0:45:38.560 --> 0:45:41.200 Girls so loved Heather, but yes, yep okay. 0:45:44.360 --> 0:45:48.480 Ana Marie was generally submissive and prone to display more emotion. 0:45:49.400 --> 0:45:52.000 She was the one that was younger. She would get 0:45:52.080 --> 0:45:53.759 upset and kind of you know, say sorry, what do 0:45:53.760 --> 0:45:56.279 you want me to do? While Charmaine, the eldest, was 0:45:56.600 --> 0:46:01.640 very stoic. She rarely cried and she yelled back, which 0:46:01.680 --> 0:46:05.680 infuriated Rose more. She would talk to Anna Marie of 0:46:05.719 --> 0:46:07.920 her belief that her mummy will come and save me, 0:46:09.000 --> 0:46:12.239 and often antagonized Rose. When Rose was yelling at her 0:46:12.280 --> 0:46:15.439 and berating her, she would say things like, my real 0:46:15.480 --> 0:46:18.319 mummy wouldn't swear or shout at us. When Rose was 0:46:18.320 --> 0:46:22.239 doing just that. A friend of Charmaine's called going to 0:46:22.280 --> 0:46:26.720 the house one day unannounced, walking in to find Charmaine naked, 0:46:26.840 --> 0:46:29.600 standing on a chair with a gag in her mouth 0:46:29.600 --> 0:46:32.800 and her hands bound with a leather strap. As Rose 0:46:32.880 --> 0:46:36.920 stood next to her with a wooden spoon. Charmaine stood 0:46:37.040 --> 0:46:43.400 silent and uncrying. That's just one example of something that 0:46:43.560 --> 0:46:49.280 was sin. In June nineteen seventy one, just weeks before 0:46:49.760 --> 0:46:53.120 Fred's release from prison, Rose took the girls to go 0:46:53.160 --> 0:46:56.000 and visit him. And this was the last time Fred 0:46:56.040 --> 0:47:01.239 would see his firstborn daughter, Charmain, not biological daughter, but 0:47:01.320 --> 0:47:06.160 his first daughter before his release on June twenty four. 0:47:07.320 --> 0:47:10.560 Charmaine did, in fact finally get taken back by her mother, Rena. 0:47:11.480 --> 0:47:13.960 I was just about to ask if Rena kept coming back. 0:47:14.040 --> 0:47:18.760 Yes, Serena kept coming back, And while Fred was in prison, 0:47:20.840 --> 0:47:24.799 Rose said she's gone with Rena. Rose, Fred, nor her 0:47:24.880 --> 0:47:28.000 school friends or any neighbors ever saw Charmaine again. 0:47:28.280 --> 0:47:28.720 Wow. 0:47:29.280 --> 0:47:31.120 The same friend who saw her on the chair that 0:47:31.239 --> 0:47:36.439 day went around, Sorry, went around to see her friend 0:47:36.480 --> 0:47:39.960 Charmaine and was told by Rose quote, she's gone to 0:47:40.000 --> 0:47:42.680 live with her mother, and bloody good riddance. This is 0:47:42.680 --> 0:47:46.080 an eight year old girl. She's talking about awful. When 0:47:46.200 --> 0:47:49.520 her little sister Anna Marie asked why Rena hadn't taken 0:47:49.680 --> 0:47:54.400 her as well, she was told by Rose she wouldn't 0:47:54.440 --> 0:47:58.640 want you or the wrong color. Now, Charmaine was the 0:47:58.640 --> 0:48:02.200 one who was actually half a Kistani, but she was 0:48:02.239 --> 0:48:05.600 insinuating you're a different color to your sister, So she's 0:48:05.719 --> 0:48:10.799 chosen your sister, right, Okay, So life went on now 0:48:10.960 --> 0:48:14.560 as a family of four upon Fred. Upon Fred's release 0:48:14.600 --> 0:48:19.160 from prison in January nineteen seventy two, Fred and Rose married. 0:48:20.040 --> 0:48:22.880 He was actually still legally married to Rena, but he 0:48:23.000 --> 0:48:26.200 just lied on the marriage certificate, which you know something 0:48:26.239 --> 0:48:30.080 I guess you can do. It's not a few months 0:48:30.160 --> 0:48:33.839 later Rose felt pregnant again. The family moved to what 0:48:33.920 --> 0:48:38.040 would become their more permanent, bigger home at twenty five 0:48:38.239 --> 0:48:47.799 Cromwell Street, Gloucester. Might be, unfortunately an address that is 0:48:48.040 --> 0:48:54.839 etched in infamy. They initially rented this house before going 0:48:54.880 --> 0:48:58.560 on to buy it from the council for seven thousand pounds. 0:48:58.640 --> 0:48:59.759 Oh wow, it was. 0:49:01.280 --> 0:49:03.360 I mean, I suppose what we would call here or 0:49:04.040 --> 0:49:08.200 would call now Commission housing, and it was an agreement. 0:49:08.560 --> 0:49:11.880 So to facilitate the sale of the house, they bought 0:49:11.920 --> 0:49:16.439 it from council, but they agreed to turn the upper 0:49:16.520 --> 0:49:19.319 two it was a three story home, like a very 0:49:19.360 --> 0:49:21.879 tall skinny you know those ones you see, a tall 0:49:21.880 --> 0:49:26.560 skinny home. The top two stories were turned into bedsits 0:49:27.360 --> 0:49:29.879 so they could house lodgers and borders and that would 0:49:29.880 --> 0:49:31.280 supplement the household. 0:49:30.880 --> 0:49:33.520 Income that money would go. 0:49:34.200 --> 0:49:39.040 I don't really understand how it was they Fred bought 0:49:39.120 --> 0:49:42.719 the home, but to facilitate the sale agreed to some 0:49:42.760 --> 0:49:47.160 sort of yeah, so they would have borders and lodgers 0:49:47.200 --> 0:49:50.680 living upstairs while the family lived downstairs with access through 0:49:50.680 --> 0:49:54.839 that garden. In June nineteen seventy two, Rose gave birth 0:49:54.880 --> 0:49:59.320 to another baby, girl named May June. It's spelled Mae, 0:49:59.520 --> 0:50:01.440 but yes, her name is May June. 0:50:02.400 --> 0:50:06.200 June July. Yep. The sister's just a good name. 0:50:06.560 --> 0:50:11.520 It's just a good just a good name. It's giving Northwest, 0:50:11.920 --> 0:50:12.200 it is. 0:50:12.280 --> 0:50:12.480 Yeah. 0:50:16.400 --> 0:50:20.360 Almost immediately after giving birth, Rose returned to sex work 0:50:20.440 --> 0:50:24.719 to make money on Fred's insistence, or not so much 0:50:24.800 --> 0:50:30.400 insistence but encouragement, and she regularly engaged in casual sex 0:50:30.440 --> 0:50:33.120 with male and female lodgers they had living at twenty 0:50:33.120 --> 0:50:38.040 five Cromwell Street, not always for money, but just for 0:50:39.239 --> 0:50:40.040 her benefit. 0:50:40.840 --> 0:50:41.120 Right. 0:50:41.560 --> 0:50:47.759 She was a very sexual person. Fred would also bring 0:50:47.800 --> 0:50:52.880 home people he encountered at work, either to pay Rose 0:50:53.160 --> 0:50:56.759 for sex or just to engage in sex. Fred often 0:50:56.800 --> 0:50:59.640 bragged that it didn't matter how many people Rose slept with, 0:50:59.800 --> 0:51:02.160 he was the only one that could truly satisfy her 0:51:03.160 --> 0:51:07.479 lovely Sure, babe, that's what they all say. Rose would 0:51:07.560 --> 0:51:11.719 beat and suffocate her sexual partners. She was very into 0:51:11.920 --> 0:51:18.719 dominate trex yeah BDSM Yeah. The brutality and violence in 0:51:18.760 --> 0:51:24.080 her sexual encounters became worse and more violent over time. 0:51:25.440 --> 0:51:28.480 Fred would often join in, and many of the people 0:51:28.480 --> 0:51:32.160 they slept with would describe the encounters as violent. With 0:51:32.400 --> 0:51:37.319 both Fred and Rose enjoying severe dominance, they massed a 0:51:37.440 --> 0:51:41.319 huge amount of bondage equipment. I've written the equipment because 0:51:41.360 --> 0:51:41.839 I didn't know. 0:51:42.239 --> 0:51:44.960 Yeah, Like, I almost laughed at myself. 0:51:45.000 --> 0:51:47.360 How dorky that is writing equipment. 0:51:46.960 --> 0:51:54.799 Bondage equipment, side toys, restraining devices, and explicit magazines and 0:51:54.840 --> 0:51:57.400 photographs that they would actually plaster around the house. 0:51:57.560 --> 0:51:59.799 All right, Okay, I mean they had little girls as well. 0:52:00.840 --> 0:52:03.520 The room. Rose would conduct her sex work out of 0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:08.000 contained peapoles for Fred to watch even when he wasn't involved, 0:52:08.480 --> 0:52:10.440 and they had a baby monitor in the room for 0:52:10.520 --> 0:52:14.720 him to listen from other parts of the house. Rose 0:52:14.760 --> 0:52:16.560 had the only key to this room and kept it 0:52:16.600 --> 0:52:20.319 on a necklace she wore at all times. Rose also 0:52:20.320 --> 0:52:23.719 controlled the family's finances. Fred would give her his pay 0:52:23.800 --> 0:52:26.279 packet and she would decide where the money was spent, 0:52:26.680 --> 0:52:30.920 and it was often on home improvements. Now, there was 0:52:31.000 --> 0:52:35.720 one incident in nineteen seventy three that almost landed Fred 0:52:35.719 --> 0:52:39.320 and Rose West in prison, probably for a very long time, 0:52:40.480 --> 0:52:46.359 and hindsight would have should have could sliding doors. There 0:52:46.400 --> 0:52:50.880 was one incident in nineteen seventy three that almost or 0:52:51.000 --> 0:52:53.960 certainly could have landed Fred and Rose West in prison, 0:52:54.080 --> 0:53:00.120 probably for a very long time. Hindsight sliding doors and 0:53:00.200 --> 0:53:04.440 look at that. However, this is what happened a seventeen 0:53:04.520 --> 0:53:08.320 year old Caroline Owens, who was working for them again 0:53:08.400 --> 0:53:12.560 as a nanny casually on and off. They had met 0:53:12.719 --> 0:53:15.920 her while she was hitch hiking and while she was 0:53:16.040 --> 0:53:19.680 in the house nannying, Fred made constant sexual advances to her, 0:53:20.280 --> 0:53:22.080 and after a few months of working with them, she 0:53:22.160 --> 0:53:25.120 decided she no longer enjoyed being there and decided to leave. 0:53:25.800 --> 0:53:29.640 She did so, and under the guise of apologizing to her, 0:53:30.800 --> 0:53:33.759 they lured her to meet with them. They said, let 0:53:33.840 --> 0:53:36.920 us just catch up and apologize for making me feel uncomfortable. 0:53:37.920 --> 0:53:42.880 They lured her into their car, took her home, They abducted, assaulted, 0:53:43.000 --> 0:53:47.200 and raped her repeatedly. She was able to escape the 0:53:47.239 --> 0:53:51.439 following day after pretending to agree to return to work 0:53:51.440 --> 0:53:54.520 as their nanny, so they tortured her all night and 0:53:54.560 --> 0:53:56.879 said we'd come back and work with us. She said 0:53:56.960 --> 0:54:01.040 yes to get away. Oh god, she escaped the house 0:54:01.080 --> 0:54:04.239 when they left her alone to do the vacuuming. She 0:54:04.320 --> 0:54:07.800 reported the horrific abuse, and Fred and Rose were charged, 0:54:08.880 --> 0:54:12.040 but when it came to trial, a seventeen year old 0:54:12.080 --> 0:54:16.560 Caroline was too traumatized to relive the events exactly and 0:54:16.640 --> 0:54:21.000 face them in court. The couple was fined fifty pounds 0:54:21.080 --> 0:54:23.280 each and allowed to walk. 0:54:23.120 --> 0:54:26.960 Free fifty pounds each. Ah, that's terrified. 0:54:26.960 --> 0:54:31.800 All the sexual charges were dropped because they were witnessed 0:54:31.840 --> 0:54:36.600 testimony only. I think that she had physical bruises, so 0:54:36.640 --> 0:54:40.920 that they were kind of charged with low level physicality 0:54:41.719 --> 0:54:47.080 and fined. And so life went on in the West household. 0:54:48.320 --> 0:54:52.520 So that was nineteen seventy three. By nineteen eighty three, 0:54:53.480 --> 0:54:55.960 Rose had given birth to eight children. 0:54:56.920 --> 0:54:59.400 Sorry, so what what years. 0:54:59.160 --> 0:55:01.799 Is eighty three? So in ten years? 0:55:01.840 --> 0:55:06.600 Ten years? Okay, we're right, Okay, yeah, the one year old, Like. 0:55:06.760 --> 0:55:11.640 I know your mouth's is yeah, okay, octopus, that's eight legs, 0:55:11.640 --> 0:55:13.000 not eight babies. 0:55:13.719 --> 0:55:16.280 Some sort of reference. I wanted to bring up octorpus 0:55:16.360 --> 0:55:17.080 in this episode. 0:55:18.239 --> 0:55:19.960 You've bit there with a we look on your face. 0:55:20.000 --> 0:55:21.960 You've been trying to bring up an octopus. Bring up, 0:55:23.040 --> 0:55:24.040 you heard the word eight? 0:55:24.520 --> 0:55:27.720 Of course? Is it a buzzer? Of course? 0:55:28.719 --> 0:55:32.879 If I really like the idea that maybe octopi can 0:55:33.000 --> 0:55:37.480 have eight babies in a year, and you've unwittingly please 0:55:37.760 --> 0:55:41.319 call in right now. Will wait and tell us where 0:55:41.320 --> 0:55:50.400 a baker's does and octopus babies? Oh Jesus, all right. So, 0:55:51.680 --> 0:55:55.239 by nineteen eighty three, Rose West had given birth to 0:55:55.320 --> 0:55:59.960 eight children, at least three of whom were conceived by 0:56:00.200 --> 0:56:05.360 her clients. Not fair, Fred willingly accepted all of the 0:56:05.440 --> 0:56:08.720 children as his own, telling those with different skin tones 0:56:09.000 --> 0:56:13.759 that his great grandmother had been black. When each of 0:56:13.800 --> 0:56:16.840 the West children reached the age of seven, they were 0:56:16.840 --> 0:56:20.560 assigned numerous daily chores to perform in the house. They 0:56:20.600 --> 0:56:25.160 were very rarely allowed to socialize with anyone outside the home, 0:56:25.320 --> 0:56:29.600 or even socialize outside unless either of their parents were present. 0:56:30.360 --> 0:56:33.240 They had to follow strict guidelines imposed by their parents, 0:56:33.680 --> 0:56:37.239 with severe punishment, which was almost always physical, being the 0:56:37.280 --> 0:56:42.080 penalty for not conforming, not following the household rules we're 0:56:42.120 --> 0:56:48.440 talking about. From seven years old, the children really feared this, 0:56:49.680 --> 0:56:52.840 not just not these threats of violence, but the acts 0:56:52.880 --> 0:56:54.880 of violence that would happen. As well from their parents, 0:56:55.840 --> 0:56:59.680 and the vast majority of the violence was inflicted by Rose, 0:57:00.200 --> 0:57:05.440 occasionally by Fred. The violence was sometimes completely irrational, it 0:57:05.560 --> 0:57:11.040 was sometimes indiscreet, and it was often reported it was 0:57:11.120 --> 0:57:15.719 just inflicted for Rose's gratification. Wasn't so much punishment as 0:57:15.760 --> 0:57:20.200 her wanting to do it. However, she always took great 0:57:20.280 --> 0:57:24.600 care to not mark the children's faces or hands, which 0:57:24.640 --> 0:57:27.360 could of course be seen no matter what they were wearing. 0:57:28.320 --> 0:57:30.280 That's that's so crazy. 0:57:29.960 --> 0:57:33.479 Isn't it disgusting? It's okay, I'm sorry, I just. 0:57:36.720 --> 0:57:37.320 Can you cut that. 0:57:41.520 --> 0:57:43.680 I did that, but with my mouth closed it would 0:57:43.680 --> 0:57:45.160 be quiet, but then I decided to speak. 0:57:45.440 --> 0:57:47.400 I'm so sorry that I spoke. 0:57:49.000 --> 0:57:52.480 I even interrupt myself if that makes you, I interrupt. 0:57:54.000 --> 0:57:58.520 Oh my god, that's so horrible. I'm so sorry. Okay. 0:57:58.880 --> 0:58:03.440 Two of the West children, Heather so that Heather was 0:58:03.480 --> 0:58:08.760 the eldest to Fred and Rose biologically and the eldest boy, Steven, 0:58:09.440 --> 0:58:12.600 both ran away from home at one point, but each 0:58:12.680 --> 0:58:16.280 returned after sleeping rough for several weeks. They were both 0:58:16.360 --> 0:58:23.080 badly beaten upon their return. Between nineteen seventy two and nineteen. 0:58:22.800 --> 0:58:25.040 Ninety two, nineteen ninety two. 0:58:24.960 --> 0:58:29.520 Yep, so over the twenty years. Over twenty year is 0:58:29.600 --> 0:58:33.680 essentially from when Rose was involved in Fred's life. The 0:58:33.720 --> 0:58:38.320 West children were admitted to emergency thirty one times. 0:58:38.440 --> 0:58:39.360 Oh my god. 0:58:39.720 --> 0:58:43.600 How many of these thirty one would you think were 0:58:43.720 --> 0:58:45.800 reported to social services? 0:58:45.840 --> 0:58:48.640 Well, I would say all of them should be. Yes, again, 0:58:49.600 --> 0:58:54.440 thirty thirty of them were none. 0:58:54.880 --> 0:59:03.240 Not a single incident the child from this household presenting 0:59:03.280 --> 0:59:07.160 to accident an emergency was ever reported to social services. 0:59:07.160 --> 0:59:11.040 They were all described by the parents as accidents, you know, 0:59:11.120 --> 0:59:15.160 they'd fallen off the monkey bars, they tripped over their 0:59:15.200 --> 0:59:17.760 sister's foot, whatever it may be. Not one was ever 0:59:17.840 --> 0:59:18.800 reported to social. 0:59:18.800 --> 0:59:22.320 The monkey bar is a thing that's is that everywhere? 0:59:22.440 --> 0:59:25.560 Monkey bars are monkey bars everywhere? 0:59:25.640 --> 0:59:25.880 Yeah? 0:59:26.560 --> 0:59:28.360 Can you see any monkey bars in the room right now? 0:59:28.600 --> 0:59:32.840 No monkey bars and monkey bars Australian or an Australian or. 0:59:32.800 --> 0:59:38.400 Is it everywhere everywhere? But do you mean this is 0:59:38.440 --> 0:59:40.760 the term Australian? Yeah, I don't. 0:59:40.560 --> 0:59:42.920 Know monkey bars. Let me have a look up this 0:59:43.040 --> 0:59:45.720 right now. Just monkey bars, I don't think so. 0:59:45.800 --> 0:59:46.960 I think that's just what they're called. 0:59:48.040 --> 0:59:51.880 Yeah, I'd be interested to know if that's if monkey 0:59:51.920 --> 0:59:54.680 bars are everywhere? Or if they're just kind of what 0:59:54.800 --> 0:59:55.240 do you think. 0:59:55.160 --> 0:59:57.040 It would be called, like a horizontal ladder? 0:59:58.760 --> 1:00:01.240 It's a horizontal That's exactly what it is. So it's 1:00:01.760 --> 1:00:03.560 horizontal ladder. 1:00:03.680 --> 1:00:06.680 So if you don't know what we're talking about, bars, 1:00:06.720 --> 1:00:08.520 are I think they called monkeys? 1:00:08.680 --> 1:00:10.960 Okay, great, please right in. I'd love to know. 1:00:11.040 --> 1:00:15.320 It's kind of It is funny if they're not monkey 1:00:15.400 --> 1:00:31.120 bars and people like what even Fred occasionally became the 1:00:31.160 --> 1:00:35.800 recipient of his wife's violence. On one occasion in nineteen 1:00:35.840 --> 1:00:39.240 seventy four, Rose chased after Fred with a carving knife 1:00:39.280 --> 1:00:42.000 in her hand. Fred was unable to slam shut the 1:00:42.000 --> 1:00:44.640 door of the room. Oh sorry, He was able to 1:00:44.680 --> 1:00:46.520 slam shut the door of the room in which he'd run, 1:00:46.760 --> 1:00:49.840 and Rose lunged at him with the knife, but he 1:00:50.000 --> 1:00:52.720 closed the door just in time, and the knife embedded 1:00:52.760 --> 1:00:53.800 itself in the door. 1:00:53.880 --> 1:00:54.640 Oh my god. 1:00:55.360 --> 1:00:59.560 Three of Rose's fingers slid down the blade, almost severing 1:00:59.600 --> 1:01:03.400 them from her hand. She calmly wrapped her hand in 1:01:03.480 --> 1:01:06.600 a tea towel and said, look what you've done, fella. 1:01:06.640 --> 1:01:09.080 You've got to take me to the hospital now. Oh like, 1:01:09.160 --> 1:01:10.640 if he had noted on the door, she would have 1:01:11.040 --> 1:01:13.760 literally plunged the knife into him. That's just one example 1:01:13.760 --> 1:01:21.000 that I've There was also a lot of sexual abuse 1:01:21.040 --> 1:01:25.120 at twenty five Cromwell Street involving the West children. I've 1:01:25.160 --> 1:01:28.000 decided not to say any more than that this story 1:01:28.080 --> 1:01:30.320 is horrific enough, and I don't feel there's anything to 1:01:30.360 --> 1:01:33.160 be gained by talking in detail about any of these 1:01:33.200 --> 1:01:40.280 horrific crimes. In nineteen eighty seven, Heather, who was just 1:01:40.720 --> 1:01:44.200 months shy of her seventeenth birthday, so again the first 1:01:44.400 --> 1:01:51.160 biological daughter to friend rose together Yep left the hunt 1:01:52.560 --> 1:01:56.920 as stated she'd run away before. She was known by 1:01:56.960 --> 1:02:01.320 her classmates and teachers as a serious, light, quiet and 1:02:01.520 --> 1:02:04.880 responsible student, and she did a lot of the caring 1:02:04.920 --> 1:02:08.200 for her younger siblings at home. She spoke a little 1:02:08.240 --> 1:02:11.000 bit to school staff about her difficulties at all, sorry 1:02:11.040 --> 1:02:14.240 about having difficulties at home, but she never went into 1:02:14.320 --> 1:02:19.440 any detail. When she just stopped turning up to school 1:02:19.640 --> 1:02:23.600 just before her seventeenth birthday, friends and school staff were concerned, 1:02:24.240 --> 1:02:26.800 but calls to the home uncovered that she had run 1:02:26.840 --> 1:02:29.720 away after a big fight with her parents, and at 1:02:29.720 --> 1:02:34.200 age seventeen sorry sixteen, she could do so. She had 1:02:34.280 --> 1:02:36.440 run away before and this time she just didn't come home. 1:02:37.040 --> 1:02:38.840 I think in a lot of cases as well. I 1:02:38.880 --> 1:02:40.560 don't know if this is a common thing, but you 1:02:40.600 --> 1:02:44.080 know kids who are abused, kids who faced a lot 1:02:44.120 --> 1:02:47.000 of violence in the home often wouldn't talk about that 1:02:47.040 --> 1:02:47.640 sort of stuff. 1:02:47.720 --> 1:02:51.920 Well, that is permeates this entire story. 1:02:52.080 --> 1:02:53.560 I kind of feel a lot of shame as well. 1:02:53.560 --> 1:02:59.040 I'm sure, of course, her parents did not file a 1:02:59.080 --> 1:03:04.160 missing persons report. Over the coming years, when the kids 1:03:04.200 --> 1:03:07.800 played up, the family would joke, if you don't behave, 1:03:07.880 --> 1:03:10.200 you're going to end up under the patio like your sister. 1:03:11.040 --> 1:03:12.400 Ha. 1:03:15.200 --> 1:03:19.080 Five years after Heather ran away in nineteen ninety two, 1:03:20.440 --> 1:03:25.520 one of the younger West children who was named whose name, 1:03:25.680 --> 1:03:30.320 who is aged thirteen. She was named by media as Louise, 1:03:30.480 --> 1:03:32.600 but because she was under age, this was a pseudonym, 1:03:32.680 --> 1:03:34.200 so you don't actually know what her name was, but 1:03:34.240 --> 1:03:38.200 will call her Louise. She was thirteen and she told 1:03:38.240 --> 1:03:41.120 a friend one day she was being sexually abused at home. 1:03:42.400 --> 1:03:46.240 This friend told her that she should tell some teachers. 1:03:46.400 --> 1:03:49.480 Wow, she did, and. 1:03:49.440 --> 1:03:54.480 The school notified social services and police, who interviewed Louise 1:03:54.520 --> 1:03:58.520 without her parents' knowledge, and she confirmed and reiterated the 1:03:58.560 --> 1:04:06.880 allegations opened a formal investigation. Police searched the West household 1:04:07.440 --> 1:04:10.440 on the pretext of searching for stolen property, so they said, 1:04:12.080 --> 1:04:15.640 especially when he was so known for. Of course, in 1:04:15.680 --> 1:04:19.760 the house they found numerous objects of sexual paraphernalia, including 1:04:19.960 --> 1:04:24.440 ninety nine pornographic videos of both homemade and commercial nature. 1:04:25.040 --> 1:04:25.800 Oh my god. 1:04:27.160 --> 1:04:30.480 The children were removed from the home and both parents 1:04:30.480 --> 1:04:35.880 were arrested on child cruelty charges. The children gave statements 1:04:35.920 --> 1:04:40.360 of years of physical and sexual abuse, and all in 1:04:40.400 --> 1:04:45.640 each of their stories were consistent. While these crimes were 1:04:45.680 --> 1:04:49.880 being uninvestigated, something else came up. One of the children 1:04:49.920 --> 1:04:54.920 was unaccounted for. Police discovered that Heather running away in 1:04:55.000 --> 1:04:58.919 nineteen eighty seven was never reported to them. Police found 1:04:58.920 --> 1:05:03.200 this odd, to say the the children all told police 1:05:03.520 --> 1:05:05.560 that Heather had gone away to work at a camp, 1:05:06.520 --> 1:05:08.919 not that she'd run away, as the school and other 1:05:09.000 --> 1:05:12.000 adults around the neighborhood who had acquired had been told. 1:05:13.000 --> 1:05:15.640 When Fred and Rose were asked about Heather's departure from 1:05:15.680 --> 1:05:20.840 the home, their stories were inconsistent, vague, and sometimes contradictory. 1:05:21.960 --> 1:05:25.960 Police checked employment records, benefit records, passport activities, school and 1:05:26.080 --> 1:05:30.160 medical records and found no trace of Heather at all 1:05:30.600 --> 1:05:34.800 after nineteen eighty seven. There was not a single sign 1:05:35.240 --> 1:05:40.440 she was alive. While they were looking into this, the 1:05:40.520 --> 1:05:44.760 cases against both parents on the cruelty charges fell apart 1:05:45.440 --> 1:05:48.840 because the kids did not want to testify in court. 1:05:49.480 --> 1:05:53.840 Anna Marie, who was the eldest of the children, because 1:05:54.240 --> 1:05:58.720 Charmaine was no longer living with them, she formally withdrew 1:05:58.800 --> 1:06:03.680 her complaints and breast a desire to return home, noting 1:06:03.760 --> 1:06:06.880 the misery of her younger siblings and the fear of 1:06:06.960 --> 1:06:08.080 Rose's retaliation. 1:06:08.480 --> 1:06:09.240 Oh my god. 1:06:10.440 --> 1:06:14.040 The younger children who were under sixteen remained in foster care, 1:06:15.000 --> 1:06:17.320 but Fred and Rose were allowed to return to twenty 1:06:17.320 --> 1:06:20.920 five Cromwell Street, as were their children who were over sixteen. 1:06:21.840 --> 1:06:25.720 The younger children were also allowed supervise visits at the house, 1:06:28.000 --> 1:06:30.000 but police were not going to let the mystery of 1:06:30.040 --> 1:06:37.160 Heather's whereabouts go unsolved. In February nineteen ninety four, two 1:06:37.280 --> 1:06:40.680 years after authorities first became aware of Fred and Rose 1:06:40.720 --> 1:06:44.600 abusing their children, thanks to Louise's report, police got a 1:06:44.640 --> 1:06:48.440 warrant to search twenty five Cromwell Street under the suspicion 1:06:48.960 --> 1:06:50.440 of the death of Heather West. 1:06:50.880 --> 1:06:53.040 When do you think about it, as Wollock, so much 1:06:53.160 --> 1:07:00.320 time has passed since he was committing thefts, and you know, 1:07:00.440 --> 1:07:03.240 like there was so much that it happened in that time. 1:07:03.520 --> 1:07:06.000 It's a lot of this story is a lot argued 1:07:06.040 --> 1:07:10.200 about them very much falling through the cracks, very much. 1:07:10.320 --> 1:07:15.000 This was a worrying couple for many, many, many reasons. 1:07:15.920 --> 1:07:19.280 And yeah, they really didn't fall through the cracks. Due 1:07:19.280 --> 1:07:24.000 to the children's reports of the family Invertedcoma's joke that 1:07:24.080 --> 1:07:27.800 Heather was under the patio. This is where police first 1:07:27.840 --> 1:07:28.320 brought in. 1:07:29.120 --> 1:07:31.600 Like ground, I mean ground. 1:07:31.640 --> 1:07:35.200 I know all about forklifts and stuff, but some kind 1:07:35.200 --> 1:07:39.120 of ground trading, well not even quite some kind of 1:07:39.520 --> 1:07:43.720 machinery that like, because the patio is concrete. They kind 1:07:43.760 --> 1:07:48.200 of did something and they found that there was disturbed 1:07:48.400 --> 1:07:52.520 soil under the concrete patio. The patio had been laid 1:07:52.520 --> 1:07:56.160 by Fred in nineteen eighty seven. Do you remember what 1:07:56.240 --> 1:07:58.560 your Heather went ran away? 1:08:01.200 --> 1:08:01.439 Oh? 1:08:01.480 --> 1:08:06.280 Okay, So, when asked what they might find under the 1:08:06.320 --> 1:08:11.400 patio if they were to excavate, Fred confessed to killing 1:08:11.480 --> 1:08:17.200 Heather in an act of manslaughter. He said during a 1:08:17.240 --> 1:08:20.120 fight they'd had He had gone into a fit of 1:08:20.240 --> 1:08:23.400 rage and strangled and accidentally killed his daughter. 1:08:24.360 --> 1:08:27.200 Now's that means because accidental? Oh? Yes, right. 1:08:29.040 --> 1:08:31.520 He had cut up her body with a large knife 1:08:31.920 --> 1:08:35.040 and stored her remains in a dust bin as he 1:08:35.120 --> 1:08:39.280 waited for an opportunity to dig her grave. This is 1:08:39.280 --> 1:08:43.600 what he told Pa. He was insistent Rose had no 1:08:43.720 --> 1:08:48.880 idea that it had happened at all. When it happened, 1:08:48.920 --> 1:08:52.840 he said, she was preoccupied with a client upstairs. He 1:08:52.920 --> 1:08:56.000 told Rose she had run away, which she had always believed. 1:08:56.920 --> 1:08:59.680 Rose backed up this story with police, saying she had 1:08:59.680 --> 1:09:04.400 given Heather money and actually would receive phone calls from 1:09:04.479 --> 1:09:07.920 Heather over the years, only now discovering that these have 1:09:08.040 --> 1:09:12.080 been faked by Fred to keep up the line. On 1:09:12.120 --> 1:09:16.800 February twenty six, nineteen ninety four, police excavated and ripped 1:09:16.880 --> 1:09:21.000 up the patio and excavated the garden and found the 1:09:21.080 --> 1:09:25.960 dismembered remains of sixteen year old Heather West. Fred had 1:09:25.960 --> 1:09:30.639 told them exactly where to look. He actually accompanied them 1:09:30.880 --> 1:09:34.479 to the house and pointed out the exact location of 1:09:34.520 --> 1:09:35.439 his daughter's body. 1:09:35.600 --> 1:09:37.600 Wow. Was he in custody at this point? 1:09:39.120 --> 1:09:43.000 Yes, so he had. It was February twenty five, that 1:09:43.080 --> 1:09:46.600 they had gone to the house with the warrant and said, 1:09:47.360 --> 1:09:50.479 what might we you know, where's Heather? What might be 1:09:50.560 --> 1:09:53.520 fine if we looked under the patio and he said, okay. 1:09:53.320 --> 1:09:58.559 Phrase that they use, Oh might we find we're fine exactly. 1:10:00.000 --> 1:10:04.280 So then yes, he was brought into custody. He said, yeah, 1:10:04.360 --> 1:10:08.800 look this happened. I strangled her. I buried her in 1:10:08.800 --> 1:10:10.519 the back garden. No one else in the family knew 1:10:10.520 --> 1:10:13.200 about it. He said, I'll take you to the house 1:10:13.240 --> 1:10:15.559 and I'll sherw exactly where her body will be found. 1:10:19.760 --> 1:10:23.040 There were signs that she had been tortured prior to 1:10:23.080 --> 1:10:27.360 her death, and multiple finger bones were missing, which were 1:10:27.400 --> 1:10:30.599 never recovered. I will say now because I won't bring 1:10:30.640 --> 1:10:35.719 it up again later, that all of the bodies, unless 1:10:35.840 --> 1:10:38.120 I think there is one that I'll bring up later 1:10:38.200 --> 1:10:41.920 one that wasn't. But otherwise all of the bodies sorry 1:10:41.960 --> 1:10:46.439 spoiler alert, had been There were signs that they had 1:10:46.479 --> 1:10:52.320 been badly tortured and abused before death. Fred was formally 1:10:52.439 --> 1:10:59.000 charged with his daughter's murder that evening, But this was 1:10:59.120 --> 1:11:04.000 just the beginning. Police had no idea what they were 1:11:04.000 --> 1:11:10.160 about to uncover beyond that while exuming Heather's body, they 1:11:10.200 --> 1:11:15.320 realized they had found three thigh bones. Now, I'm not 1:11:15.320 --> 1:11:18.839 sure if you studied science at all, but humans have two. 1:11:19.080 --> 1:11:21.400 Thigh bones, yes, or beakers? 1:11:21.479 --> 1:11:22.799 Three are bakers? 1:11:23.080 --> 1:11:25.640 Two beakers? Two? Fuck, I haven't got it yet, I'll 1:11:25.680 --> 1:11:25.840 get it. 1:11:25.840 --> 1:11:30.519 One, We'll get it. They asked Fred why they may 1:11:30.560 --> 1:11:34.280 have found three thigh bones, to which he immediately said 1:11:34.760 --> 1:11:37.960 there were two further sets of human remains in his garden. 1:11:40.360 --> 1:11:43.160 He agreed to return to twenty five Cromwell Street to 1:11:43.240 --> 1:11:47.800 reveal the locations of both of those graves. He said 1:11:48.040 --> 1:11:52.599 one was a girl named Shirley Robertson, a former tenant 1:11:52.920 --> 1:11:56.160 who had been heavily pregnant with his child at the 1:11:56.160 --> 1:11:58.599 time of her murder in nineteen seventy eight. 1:11:58.800 --> 1:11:59.479 Oh my god. 1:12:01.160 --> 1:12:05.320 The other victim he described as being quote Shirley's mate, 1:12:05.560 --> 1:12:11.160 which turned out but he either would not or could 1:12:11.200 --> 1:12:16.000 not elaborate as to her identity beyond that. Both sets 1:12:16.000 --> 1:12:18.680 of remains were discovered on the twenty eighth of February, 1:12:19.160 --> 1:12:22.080 and Fred was charged with both of those murders as well. 1:12:22.120 --> 1:12:27.040 Two days later, having discovered three sets of human remains 1:12:27.080 --> 1:12:30.400 in the garden, a decision was made to thoroughly search 1:12:30.479 --> 1:12:34.519 the entire property. Rose was placed in a safe house 1:12:34.560 --> 1:12:39.479 in a nearby town. Police continued to question Fred for 1:12:39.600 --> 1:12:42.920 up to sixteen hours a day, with questioning turning to 1:12:43.000 --> 1:12:47.160 the truth about the first of his daughters to have 1:12:47.200 --> 1:12:53.000 gone missing from the home. Remember his stepdaughter Charmaine, who 1:12:53.040 --> 1:12:56.080 was eventually taken by her mother Rena and never seen again. 1:12:58.280 --> 1:13:03.160 Police went seeing said one daughter went missing, and actually 1:13:03.200 --> 1:13:07.000 you killed her. Anything you want to tell us about Charmaine. 1:13:09.080 --> 1:13:14.240 After days of intense questioning, on March four, Fred authorized 1:13:14.280 --> 1:13:17.799 his solicitor to pass Belie a note he had written. 1:13:19.200 --> 1:13:24.560 It read in his handwriting, I Frederick West authorized my solicitor, 1:13:24.640 --> 1:13:28.720 Howard Ogden to advise Superintendent Bennett that I wish to 1:13:28.760 --> 1:13:35.160 admit to a further bracket, a prox close bracket nine killings, 1:13:35.840 --> 1:13:45.519 nine expressly Charmain, Rena, Rena, Linda Goff, who we have 1:13:45.560 --> 1:13:49.639 not heard of yet, and this is all quote and 1:13:49.800 --> 1:13:58.880 others to be identified f dot West. Fred calmly explained 1:13:59.400 --> 1:14:02.240 there were a fur so the five bodies buried in 1:14:02.320 --> 1:14:06.959 his cellar, and a six body beneath the ground floor bathroom. 1:14:07.360 --> 1:14:07.960 Wow. 1:14:09.200 --> 1:14:13.240 Most of these victims Fred claimed had been hitchhikers or 1:14:13.320 --> 1:14:15.840 girls who had been lodging with them, who he had 1:14:15.920 --> 1:14:19.120 murdered in the nineteen seventies after picking them up a 1:14:19.200 --> 1:14:24.439 bus stops right. Initially, Fred claimed these victims had been 1:14:24.560 --> 1:14:28.480 killed when they had threatened to inform Rows of his infidelity, 1:14:29.560 --> 1:14:32.679 and that he had transported their bodies to Cromwell Street 1:14:32.840 --> 1:14:38.000 to abuse, dismember, and then bury in shallow graves. So 1:14:38.040 --> 1:14:42.720 he said he abducted them, killed them elsewhere and then 1:14:42.760 --> 1:14:47.280 brought them to twenty five Cromwell Street, known forever as 1:14:47.320 --> 1:14:48.240 the House of Horrors. 1:14:49.760 --> 1:14:49.920 Now. 1:14:49.960 --> 1:14:53.920 The dismemberment, Fred claimed was only to make it easier 1:14:53.960 --> 1:14:59.160 to bury the remains in shallow graves, and he again 1:14:59.280 --> 1:15:02.439 agreed to return with police to Cromwell Street to indicate 1:15:02.479 --> 1:15:07.719 precisely where he'd buried each victim. Right between March five 1:15:07.840 --> 1:15:11.519 and March eight, police found six further bodies of young 1:15:11.560 --> 1:15:13.360 females at twenty five Cromwell Street. 1:15:13.560 --> 1:15:13.800 Wow. 1:15:14.439 --> 1:15:18.760 Each victim had been extensively mutilated, and each body bore 1:15:18.840 --> 1:15:22.280 evidence of having been subjected to extreme abuse prior to 1:15:22.320 --> 1:15:28.679 their deathsh God. Each set of remains was missing numerous bones, 1:15:29.640 --> 1:15:35.600 particularly finger bones. When questioned Fred refused to divulge the 1:15:35.640 --> 1:15:38.160 whereabouts of the bones missing from each of the set 1:15:38.240 --> 1:15:41.680 of remains all the reason for their absence. It's been 1:15:41.760 --> 1:15:44.760 speculated he kept them somewhere as trophies, but it's not 1:15:44.880 --> 1:15:45.639 known where they went. 1:15:45.800 --> 1:15:47.720 So it's kind of just kind of he's kind of 1:15:47.760 --> 1:15:49.800 bragging about it in a way and going, this is 1:15:49.840 --> 1:15:51.160 what I did. This is what I did. But he's 1:15:51.200 --> 1:15:52.840 not giving away everything. 1:15:54.080 --> 1:15:58.000 In the documentary, which I refused to tell you about 1:15:58.080 --> 1:16:01.559 until the end of this episode, there is actually vision 1:16:01.760 --> 1:16:07.040 of him with police walking through the backyard. It doesn't 1:16:07.479 --> 1:16:10.479 feel like bragging. I'm not a psychologist. I'm certainly not 1:16:10.479 --> 1:16:16.160 a criminal psychologist. It doesn't feel to me like bragging. 1:16:16.800 --> 1:16:17.080 It is. 1:16:18.320 --> 1:16:22.320 Uh, he's kind of stone cold, No, not even a 1:16:22.320 --> 1:16:27.759 stone cold. He's emotionless. It feels a bit like, well, 1:16:28.640 --> 1:16:31.880 I'm found out now, I've got nothing left. I've got 1:16:31.880 --> 1:16:35.000 nothing to lose in telling them it's just yep, there, 1:16:35.240 --> 1:16:37.880 that's where your phone part. Yep, that's where you'll find. 1:16:37.920 --> 1:16:40.360 That is something to lose. If he's not giving away 1:16:40.439 --> 1:16:43.160 everything like he's not. He's not talking about everything. He's 1:16:43.200 --> 1:16:46.840 not like, oh the fingers are there, like it feels 1:16:46.880 --> 1:16:48.280 like he is holding something back. 1:16:48.479 --> 1:16:52.439 Yes, it's I think more when I'm probably arguing, is 1:16:52.439 --> 1:16:56.200 that is the term bragging. He's not going, you know, well, 1:16:56.479 --> 1:16:59.200 oh my god, you think I only killed Heather. I 1:16:59.400 --> 1:17:03.760 actually heaps more than that. It's not that, it's more, 1:17:04.600 --> 1:17:08.080 and he doesn't give it up really willingly. It reminds 1:17:08.160 --> 1:17:14.800 me a little bit of Dennis nils Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:17:14.880 --> 1:17:19.760 where they police questioned him and he was like, yeah, 1:17:19.960 --> 1:17:22.720 yeah there was another one actually yeah, yeah, actually no, 1:17:22.800 --> 1:17:24.519 I do remember there's another one. It felt a bit 1:17:24.560 --> 1:17:25.040 more like. 1:17:24.960 --> 1:17:28.599 That, yes, okay, but he was like, you know, Dennis 1:17:28.640 --> 1:17:31.000 Nilsen just went, you know, look at the look in 1:17:31.080 --> 1:17:34.200 the in my in my living room, in the tea 1:17:34.200 --> 1:17:35.600 cups and look in the you know, and was like, 1:17:35.680 --> 1:17:38.040 oh my god, yeah, whatever it was. 1:17:38.080 --> 1:17:42.120 Whereas Fred West remembered where all the bodies were, but 1:17:42.280 --> 1:17:46.000 didn't either didn't remember, didn't give up a lot of 1:17:46.040 --> 1:17:50.679 information about why or how he was. He was holding 1:17:50.720 --> 1:17:55.320 back details, but just said, yeah, there's a body here, Yep, 1:17:55.360 --> 1:17:57.719 there's a body there that's up at this bus stop, 1:17:58.439 --> 1:18:02.479 not giving a lot of detail, but taking those into bodies. Yes, 1:18:02.840 --> 1:18:07.680 Fred continued to cease throughout all of the discoveries that 1:18:07.760 --> 1:18:10.280 his wife, Rose had no knowledge of any of it, 1:18:10.600 --> 1:18:14.479 and perhaps this is why he was kind of just saying, yes, 1:18:14.640 --> 1:18:20.360 don't look into anymore. I'll tell you they're here. Police, however, 1:18:20.600 --> 1:18:21.639 suspected otherwise. 1:18:22.080 --> 1:18:24.160 Yeah, because if you're living in the house with someone 1:18:24.200 --> 1:18:27.439 that's dismembering bodies, that would take time. 1:18:27.960 --> 1:18:34.160 Also, remember Heather ran away and she just kind of 1:18:34.160 --> 1:18:36.439 didn't seem to care, and then it turns out that 1:18:36.520 --> 1:18:39.559 actually Fred had killed her, Like really would a mother 1:18:39.680 --> 1:18:43.240 just never Yeah, there's also all those reports. Even though 1:18:43.240 --> 1:18:46.759 the chargers never went to court, all of the children 1:18:47.000 --> 1:18:51.560 had reported serious abuse by both Fred and Rose. 1:18:51.640 --> 1:18:54.479 And the threat against Rena from yep, yep, from her 1:18:54.520 --> 1:18:56.600 as well, just saying, you know, like she did not 1:18:56.720 --> 1:18:58.040 want her there. Yep. 1:19:00.040 --> 1:19:03.479 Rose West was arrested on the twentieth of April, so 1:19:03.479 --> 1:19:05.559 it's still nineteen ninety four, so it was the twenty 1:19:05.680 --> 1:19:08.920 fifth of February that Fred was first arrested. On the 1:19:08.920 --> 1:19:13.040 twentieth of April. Rose was arrested initially on offenses relating 1:19:13.040 --> 1:19:15.760 to physical and sexual assault of two children in the 1:19:15.800 --> 1:19:19.799 mid nineteen seventies, So that's what they had enough evidence 1:19:19.840 --> 1:19:24.839 to arrest her. The following day, she was a refused 1:19:24.840 --> 1:19:28.640 bail and she was transferred to a prison in the 1:19:28.640 --> 1:19:33.320 maximum security wing. Here, she was questioned more closely about 1:19:33.360 --> 1:19:37.519 all of the murders that Fred had confessed to. On 1:19:37.600 --> 1:19:42.120 April twenty five, she was formally charged with one murder. 1:19:42.240 --> 1:19:44.360 And I will go into each of the victims later. 1:19:44.560 --> 1:19:47.920 Bear with me, trust me, okay, I'll trust you. 1:19:48.040 --> 1:19:51.680 I was up until eleven thirty b finishing story and 1:19:51.760 --> 1:19:53.599 I started work at four thirty eight. 1:19:53.720 --> 1:19:56.280 I don't always say to night to me, but he 1:19:56.320 --> 1:20:03.840 did message me not imagine everything, no silence, I've muted 1:20:03.840 --> 1:20:04.400 this story. 1:20:04.640 --> 1:20:07.040 Aren't you working in five hours? Though? 1:20:07.160 --> 1:20:08.760 When you messed me because I don't get up as 1:20:08.760 --> 1:20:11.519 early as you, and when you message me to say, 1:20:11.560 --> 1:20:13.160 because I'm an idol, you know that? 1:20:14.920 --> 1:20:19.479 And who is it night ol? Who? 1:20:20.800 --> 1:20:24.400 That's something like that? Working on? But yeah, you you 1:20:24.439 --> 1:20:25.479 messaged me very. 1:20:25.400 --> 1:20:27.439 Late last night because I was like, we can record 1:20:27.439 --> 1:20:28.759 these episode tomorrow. I've finished. 1:20:28.960 --> 1:20:31.800 You've been sick, and I was like, oh my god, 1:20:32.200 --> 1:20:34.479 why are you still up because you're to be at 1:20:34.520 --> 1:20:35.040 work at four? 1:20:35.160 --> 1:20:37.080 Don't you start work at five thirty? And I said no, 1:20:37.120 --> 1:20:37.439 this week. 1:20:37.479 --> 1:20:42.000 I started four thirty and so, yeah, so you finished 1:20:42.040 --> 1:20:45.720 this very late last night because you've been sick for 1:20:45.760 --> 1:20:49.719 the last couple of weeks and I record an episode 1:20:49.720 --> 1:20:52.960 with your Crasy last week as a feeling Christie, your Christie, 1:20:53.320 --> 1:20:55.840 and so you're coming back to record this episode. So 1:20:55.920 --> 1:20:58.240 you've stayed up so late last night to do this. 1:20:58.439 --> 1:21:00.639 So you just got hooked. And really it fell into 1:21:00.680 --> 1:21:01.759 this last night. 1:21:02.360 --> 1:21:07.880 Yes, Slash, I needed to finish it. I'd been working 1:21:07.880 --> 1:21:10.360 on it in little dribs and drabs because it's so like, 1:21:10.400 --> 1:21:13.040 it's such a big story and it's so intense. And 1:21:13.040 --> 1:21:16.360 then I was like, right, I'm recording this. I need 1:21:16.400 --> 1:21:18.679 to get this in finished because I need to get 1:21:18.680 --> 1:21:20.680 this out of my life. I need to fit. I 1:21:20.720 --> 1:21:25.120 need to not be thinking about this heinous couple every day. 1:21:25.160 --> 1:21:27.280 I need to get this out drips and drabs, f y. 1:21:27.400 --> 1:21:30.599 I what bakers call dough that they throw away? 1:21:32.680 --> 1:21:35.799 Oh? Is that says that how bad bakes? 1:21:35.800 --> 1:21:35.920 Does? 1:21:35.960 --> 1:21:38.720 It says that I never knew that. 1:21:38.800 --> 1:21:43.120 You're learning a lot today. It's your favorite treat from 1:21:43.160 --> 1:21:43.800 bakers to light? 1:21:45.200 --> 1:21:49.879 Oh God, I would love a near the Hawaiian pizza 1:21:50.040 --> 1:21:54.080 kind of scroll. Thing is a scroll like the role 1:21:53.720 --> 1:21:59.719 the white making rolls make to your favorite. You might scroll, obviously, cheese, 1:21:59.720 --> 1:22:02.320 am I sorry? Cheesy mite scroll? Oh my god, by's 1:22:02.320 --> 1:22:06.040 so ozzie. Right now for overseas listeners, there is. 1:22:06.000 --> 1:22:10.639 A white bread roll that has cheese and veggiemie. It's 1:22:10.640 --> 1:22:14.719 so good baked into it and it is Did. 1:22:14.520 --> 1:22:16.720 You get lots of staff discounts or you like? 1:22:17.080 --> 1:22:23.519 No, no, no, no, no, baby dog staff that's what them. 1:22:23.560 --> 1:22:29.000 Oh my god, someone never still hot? My god, now's 1:22:29.040 --> 1:22:32.840 no staff discounts sm Me Peterson at the end of 1:22:32.960 --> 1:22:37.439 each day for health and safety reasons, trips and traps. 1:22:37.479 --> 1:22:39.040 I can tell you you could. 1:22:38.920 --> 1:22:43.240 No longer sell the leftovers the next day. So guess 1:22:43.240 --> 1:22:47.840 what the staff got to take on. Yes, exactly as 1:22:47.840 --> 1:22:51.800 you said, Yes, yeah, exactly. I was very popular in 1:22:51.840 --> 1:22:54.479 my neighborhood. Was working there. 1:22:57.320 --> 1:22:57.840 All right. 1:22:59.479 --> 1:23:04.559 By May nineteen ninety four, Fred and Rose West were 1:23:04.640 --> 1:23:09.839 jointly charged with five counts of murder. Rose simply replied 1:23:10.000 --> 1:23:15.040 I'm innocent upon hearing each charge, a response that proved 1:23:15.040 --> 1:23:17.240 to be a theme throughout each of the forty six 1:23:17.400 --> 1:23:21.719 interviews investigators would hold with Rose prior to her trial. 1:23:22.400 --> 1:23:26.160 Prior to the trial forty six police interviews, she just 1:23:26.200 --> 1:23:30.400 said I'm innocent the whole time. Now we all know 1:23:30.479 --> 1:23:34.080 I'm no good at maths, But how is yours? You 1:23:34.120 --> 1:23:38.240 know that police had exhumed five bodies, and both Fred 1:23:38.280 --> 1:23:41.840 and Rose were charged with five counts of murder. But 1:23:42.000 --> 1:23:48.519 remember Fred's note through this solicitor that said he had 1:23:48.600 --> 1:23:50.440 killed a prox. 1:23:50.520 --> 1:23:55.360 Nine people, So that's not as many as nine. 1:23:56.080 --> 1:24:01.160 Five less five is fewer than nine. 1:24:01.600 --> 1:24:02.880 Well, baby doll, tell me what happened. 1:24:03.680 --> 1:24:07.479 After the first five charges were laid, Fred ended up 1:24:07.600 --> 1:24:13.559 openly confessing to killing his first wife, Rena and his 1:24:13.600 --> 1:24:19.040 stepdaughter Charmaine. He also confessed to knowing the location of 1:24:19.240 --> 1:24:23.519 Anne mcfall's remains. Do you remember that name? It feels 1:24:23.520 --> 1:24:26.719 like eighteen years ago. I first started this the friend 1:24:27.280 --> 1:24:32.439 who stayed with Fred when Rena left back to Scotland. 1:24:32.880 --> 1:24:36.839 Anne McFall stayed, wanted to marry him, and was pregnant 1:24:36.920 --> 1:24:41.360 with his child when she went missing at eight months pregnant. 1:24:42.640 --> 1:24:48.480 Fred ended up confessing to knowing the location of Anne's remains, 1:24:49.040 --> 1:24:52.719 although he always denied killing her and said he thought 1:24:52.720 --> 1:24:58.719 that Rena had. Fred agreed to identify each burial location 1:24:59.640 --> 1:25:03.479 and The remains of these other females, women and girls 1:25:04.040 --> 1:25:07.599 were unearthed between April ten and June seven. 1:25:08.479 --> 1:25:10.000 This kind of reminds me a lot of the Green 1:25:10.040 --> 1:25:13.040 River killer that just went back to these locations and 1:25:13.160 --> 1:25:14.880 just went, oh, there's another one there, there's another one, 1:25:14.880 --> 1:25:15.680 there's another one there. 1:25:15.680 --> 1:25:19.080 Well, there were their bodies that they eximmed from twenty 1:25:19.080 --> 1:25:22.320 five Cromwell Street, and then there were bodies that were 1:25:22.560 --> 1:25:27.720 before they before he lived at twenty five Cromwell Street. Eventually, 1:25:28.400 --> 1:25:32.440 Fred West was formerly charged with twelve murders. 1:25:32.240 --> 1:25:38.120 Wow, and Rose with ten. Oh my god, So. 1:25:39.960 --> 1:25:46.960 Who were these women and girls? This sounds like what 1:25:47.120 --> 1:25:50.040 he is a horrendous sentence to say. 1:25:50.439 --> 1:25:52.200 But I'm going to gonous. 1:25:52.320 --> 1:25:56.200 Yes, I'm going to go through the victims in chronological order, 1:25:56.840 --> 1:25:58.599 which is never something that should be said. 1:25:58.720 --> 1:25:58.760 No. 1:26:00.760 --> 1:26:04.599 Anne McFall is believed to have been Fred's first victim 1:26:05.320 --> 1:26:09.080 before he ever met Rose. As we've discussed, she was 1:26:09.400 --> 1:26:12.559 a teenager in a relationship with Fred and pregnant when 1:26:12.640 --> 1:26:15.800 she apparently decided to leave him one day in May 1:26:15.920 --> 1:26:22.120 nineteen sixty seven. She was the friend So nineen sixty seven. 1:26:22.160 --> 1:26:24.040 He's quite young, then, isn't he? 1:26:24.040 --> 1:26:25.679 He was in his twenties. 1:26:25.800 --> 1:26:27.800 Yeah okay, yeah, yeah yeah. 1:26:28.000 --> 1:26:31.559 Also remember this when this is happening. So all the 1:26:31.640 --> 1:26:33.639 changes were laid in nineteen ninety four. 1:26:34.200 --> 1:26:36.080 Yeah yeah wow. 1:26:37.320 --> 1:26:41.120 So yep. She was a friend of Fred and Rina's 1:26:41.120 --> 1:26:45.799 first nanny Issa. Fred never admitted to Ann's murder, however, 1:26:45.840 --> 1:26:49.960 didn't know where her remains were, which seems fishy to meet. 1:26:50.479 --> 1:26:54.920 Her remains and those of her of their unborn baby 1:26:55.720 --> 1:26:59.040 were found in a field at Kempley, which is near 1:26:59.080 --> 1:27:02.439 Fred West's home village where he grew up in the 1:27:02.560 --> 1:27:07.280 place name I famously can pronounce very easily, Heredfordshire. 1:27:09.920 --> 1:27:10.920 I'm just covering allay. 1:27:10.920 --> 1:27:12.719 It's really good. No, but how you said it sounded 1:27:12.760 --> 1:27:19.920 like you were just making a noise both. Charmain West 1:27:20.600 --> 1:27:26.320 was Fred's stepdaughter, the first of his children. Rose hated 1:27:26.400 --> 1:27:28.920 Charmain the whole time she was in the little girl's life. 1:27:30.200 --> 1:27:33.559 Charmaine was last seen on that final visit to Fred 1:27:33.560 --> 1:27:39.960 in prison on June fifteenth, nineteen seventy one. She was 1:27:40.040 --> 1:27:43.559 killed sometime between that date and Fred's release on June 1:27:43.640 --> 1:27:51.400 twenty four. She was killed by Rose alone, who stowed 1:27:51.439 --> 1:27:54.240 her body in the cellar of their home until Fred 1:27:54.320 --> 1:27:58.200 was released from prison. When he got home, he buried 1:27:58.200 --> 1:28:00.600 her body in the yard close to the door of 1:28:00.680 --> 1:28:01.760 the flat they lived in. 1:28:02.240 --> 1:28:04.559 So we know this because of the timings that Fred 1:28:04.560 --> 1:28:06.920 could not have done it, but she had done it 1:28:07.560 --> 1:28:11.439 and had stowed her until Fred was released and the concert. 1:28:11.880 --> 1:28:15.680 Yeah, so when Fred confessed to remember, he ended up 1:28:15.720 --> 1:28:21.120 confessing to Charmain's dead. He said that he had killed her, 1:28:21.680 --> 1:28:23.360 and we will go into this. So he said he 1:28:23.600 --> 1:28:26.040 killed her and where he had buried her, which was 1:28:26.080 --> 1:28:27.800 in the back close to the back door of the 1:28:27.880 --> 1:28:29.880 flat before twenty five Cromwell Street. 1:28:29.960 --> 1:28:34.400 Right, Okay, sure, it's in a different house. So did 1:28:34.439 --> 1:28:37.599 he go to this place where to another house where 1:28:37.640 --> 1:28:40.240 people were now living and pointing out that there were 1:28:40.240 --> 1:28:42.360 bodies there? Oh my god. 1:28:42.560 --> 1:28:44.679 And I haven't written this in here because I thought 1:28:44.680 --> 1:28:47.200 it was too awful, but I'm going to say it 1:28:47.720 --> 1:28:52.559 just because he brought that up. He was insistent that 1:28:52.640 --> 1:28:58.000 he had not dismembered Charmain. Her body, though, was found 1:28:58.120 --> 1:29:02.200 in parts, but this is believed to be from when 1:29:02.800 --> 1:29:06.640 new owners of the house had done developments to the 1:29:06.720 --> 1:29:10.880 house and a new wall that like and kind of 1:29:10.880 --> 1:29:13.559 stumpings that have been put in had actually severed her body. 1:29:13.680 --> 1:29:18.479 Oh wow, Charmaine was eight years old. 1:29:19.400 --> 1:29:20.840 Oh my god. 1:29:22.320 --> 1:29:26.400 Rena, whose name was actually Catherine Costello but went by Rena, 1:29:27.479 --> 1:29:31.360 was Fred's first wife and Charmaine and Anne Marie's mother. 1:29:32.560 --> 1:29:36.640 She was last reported seen alive in August nineteen seventy one. 1:29:37.280 --> 1:29:40.320 Remember it was June nineteen seventy one that Charmaine was killed. 1:29:42.040 --> 1:29:45.439 Rena had been growing extremely anxious about her children's welfare. 1:29:46.360 --> 1:29:50.120 She'd been provided with Fred's address at Midlands Road, which 1:29:50.160 --> 1:29:53.840 is where they were living at the time, and Rena 1:29:53.920 --> 1:29:59.000 sought to confront him, likely to discuss or demand custody 1:29:59.040 --> 1:30:03.240 of her girls. This was the final time Raina was 1:30:03.280 --> 1:30:07.680 seen alive. She's believed to have been murdered by strangulation. 1:30:08.439 --> 1:30:12.599 Her dismembered body was found in a field near Fred's 1:30:12.600 --> 1:30:15.280 first home. She was twenty six years old. 1:30:15.600 --> 1:30:16.120 My god. 1:30:17.240 --> 1:30:21.760 Linda Goff was the couple's first known murder together. That's 1:30:21.760 --> 1:30:25.439 Fred and Rose West. She lived in Gloucester and was 1:30:25.479 --> 1:30:28.559 friendly with a number of lodgers at twenty five Cromwell Street. 1:30:29.479 --> 1:30:32.840 She ended up moving in there herself, leaving a note 1:30:32.880 --> 1:30:35.080 for her parents saying not to worry about her she'd 1:30:35.120 --> 1:30:37.960 found a new flat and she would come home to visit, 1:30:38.720 --> 1:30:41.920 but when she didn't, her parents tracked down the address 1:30:42.000 --> 1:30:44.720 and went to see her, to be told at the 1:30:44.720 --> 1:30:48.200 door by Rose West that Linda had actually moved elsewhere. 1:30:49.520 --> 1:30:53.320 Linda's mother said Rose was wearing Linda's slippers and cardigan 1:30:53.360 --> 1:30:58.479 when she canceered the door. It's understood Linda's death was 1:30:58.520 --> 1:31:01.639 the first sexually motion abated killing by Fred and Rose 1:31:01.720 --> 1:31:07.160 West together. Sometime in January nineteen seventy two, her dismembered 1:31:07.160 --> 1:31:09.840 body was found under the ground floor bathroom of twenty 1:31:09.840 --> 1:31:16.120 five Cromwell Street. She was nineteen. Caroline Cooper had been 1:31:16.160 --> 1:31:19.160 staying at a children's home in Gloucester when she disappeared 1:31:19.160 --> 1:31:23.200 in nineteen seventy three. She had been given permission by 1:31:23.200 --> 1:31:25.560 the home to spend the weekend with her grandmother on 1:31:25.640 --> 1:31:28.800 November ten, but after boarding a bus, she was never 1:31:28.840 --> 1:31:32.040 seen again. It's understood she was picked up by Fred 1:31:32.080 --> 1:31:36.439 and Rosemary West, assaulted, tortured and killed. Her remains were 1:31:36.439 --> 1:31:40.080 found in the cellar of twenty five Cromwell Street. She 1:31:40.200 --> 1:31:45.240 was fifteen years old. Good Lucy Partington was also killed 1:31:45.240 --> 1:31:48.760 in nineteen seventy three. She was reported missing by her 1:31:48.760 --> 1:31:52.120 parents after failing to return home after visiting a friend 1:31:52.200 --> 1:31:56.320 on December twenty seven. It's believed it was that day 1:31:56.360 --> 1:31:59.160 she was subducted by Fred and Rose, tortured and murdered. 1:31:59.400 --> 1:32:02.320 Her remains also found in the cellar. She was twenty one. 1:32:03.439 --> 1:32:07.839 Therese Cia Agenthala was a student hitchhiking from South London 1:32:07.880 --> 1:32:12.040 to Ireland when she was abducted in April nineteen seventy four. 1:32:13.400 --> 1:32:16.760 Fred only knew her as the Dutch girl, she was 1:32:16.800 --> 1:32:21.439 in fact Swiss. Her remains were also found under the cellar. 1:32:21.600 --> 1:32:25.760 She was twenty one. Shirley Hubbard was also killed in 1:32:25.840 --> 1:32:29.760 nineteen seventy four. She was a foster child and was 1:32:29.800 --> 1:32:34.760 abducted from a bus stop on November fifteenth, as she 1:32:34.800 --> 1:32:38.360 was returning home from work experience. She was reported missing 1:32:38.360 --> 1:32:40.439 when she didn't meet her boyfriend the following day as 1:32:40.479 --> 1:32:44.160 had been planned. Her dismembered body was found under the cellar. 1:32:44.600 --> 1:32:51.080 She was fifteen years old. Juanita Mott had been another 1:32:51.120 --> 1:32:54.280 lodger at twenty five Cromwell Street, but at the time 1:32:54.280 --> 1:32:57.640 of her murder in nineteen seventy five was living with 1:32:57.680 --> 1:33:01.240 a family friend in nearby knew it. It's belief she 1:33:01.320 --> 1:33:05.639 was abducted as she hitch hiked along a highway. Fred 1:33:05.680 --> 1:33:09.320 only remembered her as the girl from Newitt. She was 1:33:09.400 --> 1:33:15.240 eighteen years old. Shirley Robinson was the one Fred had 1:33:15.280 --> 1:33:19.360 first confessed to after his daughter Heather. She had been 1:33:19.400 --> 1:33:21.400 a lodger with the Wests and was known to have 1:33:21.880 --> 1:33:24.880 casual sex with them. At the time of her murder 1:33:24.920 --> 1:33:28.320 in May nineteen seventy eight, she was between six and 1:33:28.400 --> 1:33:33.360 eight months pregnant with Fred's child. It's not believe there 1:33:33.400 --> 1:33:37.960 was any sexual motivation in Shirley's murder, but that her 1:33:38.000 --> 1:33:42.720 pregnancy had threatened the stability of Fred and Rose's relationship. 1:33:45.120 --> 1:33:48.879 Now By saying there was no sexual motivation in this murder, 1:33:49.720 --> 1:33:53.720 insinuates there was the other in the previous and the 1:33:53.760 --> 1:33:59.439 others to come. Shirley and her unburned baby were found 1:33:59.520 --> 1:34:01.960 in the garden of twenty five Cromwell Street. Shirley was 1:34:02.000 --> 1:34:07.240 eighteen years old. Allison Chambers had been placed in Foster 1:34:07.320 --> 1:34:10.479 Kate care at the age of fourteen. She'd had a 1:34:10.479 --> 1:34:14.479 troubled life. She repeatedly absconded from the home and was 1:34:14.520 --> 1:34:18.280 known to be a frequent visitor to twenty five Cromwell Street. 1:34:20.120 --> 1:34:22.839 She was killed in nineteen seventy nine at the house. 1:34:24.360 --> 1:34:27.280 Fred would later claim that Allison died as a result 1:34:27.320 --> 1:34:32.080 of Rose's quote becoming too bloody vicious with her during 1:34:32.080 --> 1:34:35.519 a sexual encounter. Her body was found in the garden. 1:34:35.680 --> 1:34:41.400 She was sixteen. Heather West was the last of Fred 1:34:41.439 --> 1:34:48.839 and Rose's confirmed murder victims. Their daughter killed in nineteen 1:34:48.880 --> 1:34:53.200 eighty seven, dismembered and buried in a hole in their 1:34:53.240 --> 1:34:57.400 backyard that was dug by one of her brothers under 1:34:57.439 --> 1:35:02.120 the pretense they would be installing a fish pond. They 1:35:02.200 --> 1:35:05.280 never got a fish pond, and the area the hole 1:35:05.320 --> 1:35:08.360 had been dug was soon covered by a concrete patio 1:35:08.560 --> 1:35:16.840 by Fred. Heather was sixteen years old. The first time 1:35:17.160 --> 1:35:20.799 Fred and Rose West saw each other since Fred's arrest 1:35:21.000 --> 1:35:24.559 in February was when they were both jointly brought to 1:35:24.640 --> 1:35:30.560 court to be formally charged over these twelve murders in June, 1:35:30.880 --> 1:35:35.280 so four months later. Despite Rose having been now charged, 1:35:35.840 --> 1:35:41.120 Fred maintained and insisted he had acted alone, going against 1:35:41.160 --> 1:35:45.839 any and all testimonies and accounts from witnesses and their children, 1:35:46.520 --> 1:35:52.280 He fiercely defended and protected his wife. When they sat 1:35:52.320 --> 1:35:54.439 down in court, seeing each other for the first time 1:35:54.439 --> 1:35:58.240 in four months, Fred leaned towards his wife and gently 1:35:58.280 --> 1:36:03.439 placed her hand upon his hand upon her shoulder. Smiling, Rose, 1:36:04.000 --> 1:36:10.479 having ignored her husband's presence, visibly winced in discomfort. As 1:36:10.479 --> 1:36:14.680 police attempted to lead Fred from the hearing, He resisted 1:36:14.680 --> 1:36:18.720 their efforts and again attempted to move towards Rose, who 1:36:18.840 --> 1:36:22.960 again winced and writhed away from his grasp, not looking 1:36:23.000 --> 1:36:29.160 at him. After this public rejection from his wife, Fred 1:36:29.160 --> 1:36:35.000 became increasingly and noticeably depressed. In prison. He would write 1:36:35.080 --> 1:36:38.000 Rose letters daily, to which he never got a reply. 1:36:39.240 --> 1:36:42.599 He asked his adult children, and by adult they were 1:36:42.960 --> 1:36:48.760 still teenagers, to pass on his messages of love and 1:36:48.800 --> 1:36:54.200 devotion to their mother, to which she never responded. News 1:36:54.200 --> 1:36:57.320 got back to Fred that Rose had assumed the role 1:36:57.400 --> 1:37:00.200 of a grieving mother who had lost a daughter and 1:37:00.280 --> 1:37:04.200 stepdaughter to her husband's hand, and in which she declared 1:37:04.240 --> 1:37:10.080 both her innocence and her hatred of her husband. This 1:37:10.200 --> 1:37:14.200 caused Fred to drop the act. He had been betrayed 1:37:14.240 --> 1:37:18.640 by his wife. His love and so his protection of 1:37:18.720 --> 1:37:24.880 her also fell away. Fred withdrew his early confessions to 1:37:24.960 --> 1:37:30.080 having acted alone in the murders, and instead said his 1:37:30.160 --> 1:37:34.400 wife had had almost total culpability in all of the 1:37:34.479 --> 1:37:37.559 murders to which he had been charged, excluding that of 1:37:37.600 --> 1:37:41.240 Anne mcfull, which he still stated he didn't commit. This 1:37:41.439 --> 1:37:47.719 was also before he knew Rose. He confirmed what police 1:37:47.800 --> 1:37:52.440 knew from forensic evidence that Rose had killed little Shane 1:37:52.479 --> 1:37:57.240 on her own while Fred was in prison. He also 1:37:57.320 --> 1:38:01.719 confirmed this had not been a planned, discussed, nor premeditated act. 1:38:03.880 --> 1:38:08.160 Fred never heard from Rose again. On the first of 1:38:08.240 --> 1:38:11.840 January nineteen ninety five, ten months after he had first 1:38:11.920 --> 1:38:16.040 been arrested for his daughter Heather's murder, Fred hanged himself 1:38:16.040 --> 1:38:19.880 in his prison cell. He left a suicide note which 1:38:19.960 --> 1:38:26.360 read to Rose, West, Steve and May. It's two of 1:38:26.400 --> 1:38:32.200 his children and Rose obviously well, Rose, it's your birthday 1:38:32.600 --> 1:38:36.280 on November twenty nine. You will be forty one and 1:38:36.360 --> 1:38:39.880 still beautiful and still lovely, and I love you. We 1:38:39.960 --> 1:38:43.360 will always be in love. The most wonderful thing in 1:38:43.360 --> 1:38:46.200 my life was when I met you. Our love is 1:38:46.240 --> 1:38:49.800 special to us, So Love, keep your promises to me. 1:38:50.600 --> 1:38:53.799 You know what they are. Where we are put together 1:38:54.000 --> 1:38:57.719 forever and ever is up to you. We loved Heather. 1:38:57.960 --> 1:39:01.640 Both of us. I would love Charmaine to be with 1:39:01.760 --> 1:39:06.360 Heather and Rena. You will always be missus West all 1:39:06.400 --> 1:39:10.000 over the world. That is important to me and to you. 1:39:11.560 --> 1:39:14.400 I haven't got you a present, but all I have 1:39:14.640 --> 1:39:17.599 is my life. I will give it to you, my darling. 1:39:18.200 --> 1:39:20.920 When you are ready come to me. I will be 1:39:20.960 --> 1:39:25.800 waiting for you, my god. Fred West was fifty three 1:39:25.880 --> 1:39:31.200 years old and died alone, heartbroken, in a small, dirty 1:39:31.320 --> 1:39:35.599 prison cell, with his name to be forever tainted and abhored. 1:39:36.600 --> 1:39:38.759 This was far better than he deserved. 1:39:39.360 --> 1:39:42.439 Yeah, and he was, for some reason trying to protect 1:39:42.800 --> 1:39:45.040 Rose out of everything as well. 1:39:45.560 --> 1:39:49.280 He protected her right up until the. 1:39:49.640 --> 1:39:51.560 Land when he learned that. 1:39:51.280 --> 1:39:55.160 That she was betraying him. I don't know why he 1:39:55.280 --> 1:39:58.360 decided to implicate her then. Maybe it was for some 1:40:00.360 --> 1:40:03.960 religious reason of his own. I don't know what that 1:40:04.000 --> 1:40:07.280 could have been, because it kind of felt like, oh, 1:40:07.280 --> 1:40:10.599 he's gone, well fuck you then than this suicide note. 1:40:10.640 --> 1:40:16.240 He loved her. His suicide note was a letter to her. 1:40:19.240 --> 1:40:22.880 So after his death, Rose West therefore faced trial on 1:40:22.960 --> 1:40:29.280 her own. The prosecution portrayed the Wests as sex obsessed, 1:40:29.400 --> 1:40:35.439 sadistic murderers, terming the bodies discovered at Cromwell Street and 1:40:35.520 --> 1:40:39.880 Midland Road, as secrets more terrible than words can express, 1:40:41.040 --> 1:40:43.960 the last moments on earth. For these victims were as 1:40:44.040 --> 1:40:47.840 objects of the depravity of this woman and her husband. 1:40:49.400 --> 1:40:52.760 The defense argued it was all motivated by Fred, and 1:40:52.800 --> 1:40:56.840 that Rose was unaware of her husband's sadism all his crimes. 1:40:57.439 --> 1:41:00.000 They pointed to the fact that he had committed murders before, 1:41:00.080 --> 1:41:04.360 for he knew Rose. Against the advice of her lawyers, 1:41:05.080 --> 1:41:10.160 Rose took the stand herself. At times she was teary 1:41:10.439 --> 1:41:14.920 and incredibly remorseful. She testified to being herself a victim 1:41:14.920 --> 1:41:17.599 of child abuse and rape who was groomed and coerced 1:41:17.640 --> 1:41:22.519 by an older man into marrying him. However, at other 1:41:22.600 --> 1:41:27.559 times through her testimony, Rose was upbeat, cracking jokes and laughing. 1:41:28.920 --> 1:41:32.479 She gave repeated contrary evidence to multiple other witnesses and 1:41:32.600 --> 1:41:37.800 victims whose accounts were all consistent with each other's and 1:41:37.920 --> 1:41:41.679 Roses were the only ones of a contradictory. The defense 1:41:41.720 --> 1:41:45.599 also tried to discredit witnesses as being motivated by personal 1:41:45.640 --> 1:41:48.840 grudges towards towards Rose, and this always feels like a 1:41:48.880 --> 1:41:54.479 really last ditch attempt by defense to Okay, well else, well, 1:41:54.520 --> 1:41:58.679 hang on, you can't actually believe the witnesses because yeah, 1:41:58.720 --> 1:42:01.120 so they said that there were personal rudges towards Rose, 1:42:02.240 --> 1:42:05.080 that Fred was responsible and the world knew this, but 1:42:05.240 --> 1:42:07.639 he had killed himself, so they wanted to take someone 1:42:07.720 --> 1:42:11.600 down for this and all that they were exploiting, that 1:42:11.640 --> 1:42:15.840 witnesses were exploiting them for financial gain, given the high 1:42:15.920 --> 1:42:16.960 profile of the case. 1:42:18.240 --> 1:42:20.479 So it's just it was this huge news everywhere at 1:42:20.479 --> 1:42:20.800 the time. 1:42:21.040 --> 1:42:28.679 Huge huge. Can you imagine one day a man is arrested, 1:42:29.400 --> 1:42:32.439 he takes police to his backyard of his home he 1:42:32.560 --> 1:42:37.280 lived with his I think it's ten children, and they 1:42:37.360 --> 1:42:41.719 dig up five bodies in that backyard, and then more 1:42:41.800 --> 1:42:43.679 and more and more appear over time. 1:42:43.840 --> 1:42:46.920 Yeah, just keeps omitting to more huge. 1:42:47.040 --> 1:42:50.240 And this was nineteen ninety four, it came out, right, 1:42:50.439 --> 1:42:53.120 So the first murder that we know was in nineteen 1:42:53.200 --> 1:42:55.519 sixty seven, but it was only nineteen ninety four that 1:42:55.600 --> 1:42:57.120 came out, like that's in our. 1:42:57.439 --> 1:42:58.400 Yeah, yeah, lifetime. 1:42:58.479 --> 1:42:58.599 Right. 1:42:59.120 --> 1:43:02.599 Yeah, it was huge news. 1:43:03.360 --> 1:43:05.880 So the defense tried to argue that witnesses that came 1:43:05.920 --> 1:43:08.800 forward and people were selling their stories just to kind 1:43:08.800 --> 1:43:13.680 of be part of this big salacious tabloid head. And 1:43:13.800 --> 1:43:17.439 here as well, where I will bring back up the 1:43:17.560 --> 1:43:21.320 seventeen year old girl called Caroline Owens. Remember she was 1:43:21.360 --> 1:43:25.880 abducted and raped and tortured, and that was the case 1:43:25.920 --> 1:43:29.320 I said could have in a sliding doors moment, landed 1:43:29.320 --> 1:43:33.200 them in prison. I bring her back up now because 1:43:33.200 --> 1:43:38.040 she was one of the witnesses in the case, and 1:43:38.080 --> 1:43:42.920 she did admit to receiving a twenty thousand pound payment 1:43:43.200 --> 1:43:45.960 to tell her story in the media, and this was 1:43:46.040 --> 1:43:49.919 used very much against her and other witnesses. By Rose's defense, 1:43:52.120 --> 1:43:57.320 she had every entitlement and it was her prerogative to 1:43:57.400 --> 1:44:03.000 tell her own story, and she had extreme survivors guilt, 1:44:03.320 --> 1:44:05.719 saying in this story when she spoke to the media, 1:44:06.640 --> 1:44:09.040 I only want to get justice for the girls who 1:44:09.120 --> 1:44:11.599 didn't make it. I feel like it was all. 1:44:11.479 --> 1:44:16.439 My fault, this poor, how horrible girl. 1:44:18.120 --> 1:44:23.240 So I've included that in there to say we've called 1:44:23.280 --> 1:44:26.720 it a sliding doors moment. She has lived with that 1:44:27.600 --> 1:44:30.600 thinking what if I had testified like it is just 1:44:31.200 --> 1:44:35.760 the most awful, awful thought. And this poor girl, who's 1:44:35.760 --> 1:44:39.000 a woman at this point, testified on the stand. She 1:44:39.080 --> 1:44:41.400 went through all of that to make sure Rose West 1:44:41.479 --> 1:44:46.000 was put away and she accepted a payment to tell 1:44:46.040 --> 1:44:49.240 her story and her story only, and that was used 1:44:49.280 --> 1:44:53.120 against her in the core. I swear to God. Defense 1:44:53.200 --> 1:44:56.559 lawyers for people as guilty as this have real a 1:44:56.600 --> 1:45:01.600 lot to answerform. Multiple wit says and victims of the 1:45:01.640 --> 1:45:06.760 couple's assaults testified to Rose being the more aggressive perpetrator 1:45:07.240 --> 1:45:12.280 of the couple. Neighbors described Rose's glee at Charmaine's disappearance 1:45:13.000 --> 1:45:17.879 when she said like good riddance, and her completely casual 1:45:17.920 --> 1:45:23.680 indifference to Heather's disappearance. The final witness to testify was 1:45:23.720 --> 1:45:28.400 a woman named Janet Leech, and you Sammy will remember 1:45:28.880 --> 1:45:32.960 she features heavily in the Netflix documentary or I think 1:45:33.000 --> 1:45:35.960 it's Netflix the documentary, which I will not bring up. 1:45:38.040 --> 1:45:44.240 Janet Leech was Fred's appointed appropriate adult he given his 1:45:44.360 --> 1:45:48.759 low IQ. He was given essentially like a guardian, someone 1:45:48.800 --> 1:45:53.400 to kind of talk to him and act as his representative, 1:45:53.439 --> 1:45:55.920 but not in a legal sense. She was not working 1:45:55.960 --> 1:45:58.560 for the prosecution or the defense. She was a completely 1:45:58.640 --> 1:46:03.920 separate entity who was tasked with talking to him and 1:46:04.040 --> 1:46:06.240 helping him, kind of like. 1:46:06.240 --> 1:46:07.080 A social worker. 1:46:07.479 --> 1:46:14.120 Yes, yep, yep. Through this role, Fred and Janet grew 1:46:14.320 --> 1:46:18.080 quite a close bond, and Fred really grew to trust 1:46:18.160 --> 1:46:22.519 her and treat her as a confidant. She testified to 1:46:22.560 --> 1:46:27.000 the court that prior to his arrest, he and Rose 1:46:27.120 --> 1:46:31.800 had formed a pact whereby if they were ever caught, 1:46:32.400 --> 1:46:36.879 Fred would take full responsibility for all of the murders, 1:46:38.120 --> 1:46:42.080 many of which he had privately described to Janet as 1:46:42.200 --> 1:46:45.640 being quote some of Rose's mistakes. 1:46:45.920 --> 1:46:46.440 Wow. 1:46:48.439 --> 1:46:53.200 After a seven week trial, a jury unanimously found Rosemary 1:46:53.240 --> 1:46:56.000 West guilty of all charges. 1:46:56.200 --> 1:47:04.080 Unanimously, nanimously of all of them, ten charges for her yes. 1:47:03.960 --> 1:47:09.400 Ten murder charges. There were also charges of sexual abuse 1:47:09.439 --> 1:47:16.479 and child just as Charles Mantel described Rose's crimes as 1:47:16.520 --> 1:47:21.679 appalling and depraved and noted strongly that it didn't matter 1:47:21.840 --> 1:47:25.840 whose hand had struck the fatal blow, that the involvement 1:47:25.920 --> 1:47:29.000 in any murders of this magnitude made a person guilty 1:47:29.120 --> 1:47:32.960 of those murders in the strongest degree. So essentially, when 1:47:33.240 --> 1:47:39.720 you know, they couldn't appeal by saying, well, Fred was 1:47:39.760 --> 1:47:43.439 the one who strangled this person, or if she was there, 1:47:43.560 --> 1:47:47.040 she was implicit, which the jury had found, she was 1:47:47.680 --> 1:47:53.920 completely culpable and guilty of murder. He noted that few 1:47:54.120 --> 1:47:58.040 juries in the world would ever face such vital and 1:47:58.120 --> 1:48:02.000 important a task as this one had been owing to 1:48:02.040 --> 1:48:06.600 the sheer horror and complexity of this case now they 1:48:06.720 --> 1:48:13.040 saw and that I cannot understate how much I have 1:48:13.160 --> 1:48:14.439 kept out of this report. 1:48:14.520 --> 1:48:19.880 Yeah, yeah, how much just from the volume available. 1:48:19.920 --> 1:48:22.639 If there were. I actually don't think the documentary even 1:48:22.680 --> 1:48:27.960 went into the true horrors, the true horrors, the sexual abuse, 1:48:28.160 --> 1:48:33.080 the way in which the women were killed, the things 1:48:33.160 --> 1:48:40.000 found with their bodies that suggested that the abuse that 1:48:40.040 --> 1:48:46.200 had gone on. And I mean, I've read and listened 1:48:46.240 --> 1:48:48.439 to things about this that have been put out there 1:48:48.479 --> 1:48:54.840 in the media, and I'm just horrified and disturbed. These 1:48:55.080 --> 1:48:58.959 jury went through seven weeks of all of the evidence 1:48:59.280 --> 1:49:06.200 could be given. Ye aged forty one, Rosemary West was 1:49:06.240 --> 1:49:11.240 sentenced to life in prison, never to be released. She 1:49:11.280 --> 1:49:16.040 has never taken responsibility nor shown remorse for any of 1:49:16.080 --> 1:49:21.240 her crimes. Today she is still in prison, aged seventy one. 1:49:22.320 --> 1:49:25.960 She reportedly suffers health and mobility issues. She can barely 1:49:26.000 --> 1:49:29.879 walk and is housed in a unit in maximum security 1:49:29.880 --> 1:49:33.760 prison for disabled and vulnerable prisoners. That is where she 1:49:33.800 --> 1:49:38.240 will one day die. This, like Fred, is far better 1:49:38.280 --> 1:49:39.120 than she deserves. 1:49:40.400 --> 1:49:41.040 Absolutely. 1:49:42.040 --> 1:49:46.240 It has long been speculated that Fred, either alone or 1:49:46.320 --> 1:49:51.479 with Rose, committed many more murders. Fred even telling he 1:49:51.560 --> 1:49:55.080 is appropriate adult Janet that he had planned to reveal 1:49:55.160 --> 1:49:57.920 the location of one more body per year for the 1:49:57.960 --> 1:50:01.760 rest of his life, but he inevitably took his own 1:50:01.800 --> 1:50:03.719 life before he revealed anymore. 1:50:04.160 --> 1:50:04.599 Wow. 1:50:06.240 --> 1:50:09.479 We will never know the entire truth, but what we 1:50:09.560 --> 1:50:13.880 do know is that the absolute monsters who are or 1:50:13.880 --> 1:50:17.680 were Fred and Rosemary West will never be able to 1:50:17.760 --> 1:50:26.040 hurt another person again, and that, somehow unbelievably is a 1:50:26.080 --> 1:50:34.040 brief overview of the heinous crimes of I'm going to 1:50:34.120 --> 1:50:36.479 call them because I hope they are and will be 1:50:38.000 --> 1:50:41.479 history's worst married couple. 1:50:41.920 --> 1:50:46.280 Yeah, yeah, thank you for that story. I mean, like 1:50:46.360 --> 1:50:49.200 you know it. It is such an awful, awful case. 1:50:49.800 --> 1:50:52.840 And I remember seeing that documentary on Netflix and going, 1:50:53.040 --> 1:50:57.040 this is awful. And I hadn't heard of these two before, 1:50:57.080 --> 1:50:58.360 and I've brought. 1:50:58.080 --> 1:51:01.360 Them up in numerous epases where we've said, kind of 1:51:01.400 --> 1:51:04.080 in passing we've been talking about like Folly Adure, and 1:51:04.120 --> 1:51:06.000 we've kind of said in passing it, oh, like Fred 1:51:06.000 --> 1:51:08.200 and Rosemary West, and like the House of horrors and 1:51:08.240 --> 1:51:12.000 twenty five Cromwell Streets kind of known. And I think 1:51:12.080 --> 1:51:14.400 a lot of people, especially a lot of you know, 1:51:14.680 --> 1:51:20.519 true crime listeners, people who are you know, I was 1:51:20.520 --> 1:51:24.559 going to see involved in, hopefully not involved in interested in. Yep, 1:51:25.040 --> 1:51:27.639 have heard of Fred and Rosemary West. I think everyone 1:51:27.720 --> 1:51:32.000 has heard of Rosemary West. You're not. Everyone knows they 1:51:33.240 --> 1:51:37.519 killed lots of people, maybe children involved, maybe their children involved, 1:51:37.520 --> 1:51:39.160 not quite sure, but I know there was something about 1:51:39.160 --> 1:51:41.280 they dug up lots of bodies in their backyard. Right, 1:51:41.840 --> 1:51:46.360 the details and the depravity and the years and years 1:51:46.400 --> 1:51:51.879 and decades of abuse and not being found and horror 1:51:52.040 --> 1:51:55.640 that went on in that house and outside of it 1:51:55.680 --> 1:51:59.200 and before it's just as I said, I've known this 1:51:59.240 --> 1:52:01.920 story for ever, but researching it, I don't know. Maybe 1:52:01.920 --> 1:52:03.920 that's what made me sick. Maybe that's why so long 1:52:03.960 --> 1:52:08.240 to write it is just I am very happy to 1:52:08.320 --> 1:52:11.439 leave that story behind. But before we do, what I 1:52:11.479 --> 1:52:22.200 will say is there is discourse around whether Rose was 1:52:22.320 --> 1:52:26.920 in some ways a victim herself. Right, she was fifteen 1:52:27.760 --> 1:52:32.519 when she met the twenty seven year old Fred, and 1:52:32.560 --> 1:52:36.960 I think very much my opinion, I would say undoubtedly 1:52:37.080 --> 1:52:45.280 she was groomed into being with him. However, for two decades. 1:52:46.080 --> 1:52:53.080 There are multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple reports, witness testimonies 1:52:53.080 --> 1:52:57.320 that all corroborate that she was very much an aggressive. 1:52:58.479 --> 1:53:01.719 She definitely killed char Main on her own. That's proven. 1:53:02.120 --> 1:53:04.280 Yeah, well, jail at the time exactly. 1:53:06.479 --> 1:53:09.880 That you know, whether he's groomed her into being an aggressor, 1:53:10.160 --> 1:53:13.040 she was one and continued that way for twenty years. 1:53:13.400 --> 1:53:16.200 She never turned around and said, you know, Fred talked 1:53:16.240 --> 1:53:18.280 me into this. Fred groom me. Now I'm out of 1:53:18.320 --> 1:53:21.559 his I'm not under his spell anymore. I can say this. 1:53:21.800 --> 1:53:25.920 She just denied ever having any involvement, which she clearly did. 1:53:27.320 --> 1:53:35.519 I find it very difficult to side, I suppose, I 1:53:35.560 --> 1:53:39.280 don't want to hear side with the discourse or the 1:53:39.400 --> 1:53:43.360 argument that she may have been a victim herself. Maybe 1:53:43.360 --> 1:53:45.080 that's something to say. I think she was a victim 1:53:45.080 --> 1:53:48.240 of being groomed. She was a victim of maybe society 1:53:48.280 --> 1:53:51.879 and the circumstance in her life in ending up with him. However, 1:53:51.960 --> 1:53:54.799 I think when it comes to the murders and the abuse, 1:53:54.960 --> 1:54:01.439 sexual and physical of dozens of people over decades, I 1:54:01.439 --> 1:54:04.680 don't think there is any There is no sympathy. 1:54:04.320 --> 1:54:07.080 From me does Does it remind you a little bit 1:54:07.160 --> 1:54:09.800 of the David and Katherine Bernie. 1:54:10.000 --> 1:54:13.720 No, I mean yes, sorry, yes, obviously that they're a 1:54:13.720 --> 1:54:17.280 married couple, David and Katherine Bernie, I felt. 1:54:17.160 --> 1:54:22.080 More Leniencia, right, Okay. 1:54:22.439 --> 1:54:29.360 That to me felt a bit more like a grooming situation. 1:54:33.640 --> 1:54:37.600 I think the the fact that Fred and Rose West's 1:54:37.640 --> 1:54:41.720 crimes went on for decades, and that there are multiple 1:54:42.000 --> 1:54:46.360 reports that Rose was the more aggressive of the two, 1:54:47.520 --> 1:54:51.840 makes it really hard for me to see any or 1:54:51.880 --> 1:54:53.800 find any Yeah. 1:54:54.120 --> 1:54:57.040 Sure, yeah, but that's God. 1:54:57.080 --> 1:55:00.720 That's coming from a place of extreme and great grateful 1:55:01.160 --> 1:55:06.360 privilege that I've obviously not been in a situation anywhere 1:55:06.400 --> 1:55:10.120 near that, you know, being groomed and being in in 1:55:10.160 --> 1:55:12.360 an upbringing where you may find yourself in that position. 1:55:12.440 --> 1:55:16.400 So I very much, you know, caveat that with coming 1:55:16.400 --> 1:55:18.520 from a place of privilege, but I find it very 1:55:18.600 --> 1:55:22.280 very difficult to find to find myself leaning it all 1:55:22.320 --> 1:55:29.800 towards a place of feeling like she wasn't extremely composed 1:55:29.920 --> 1:55:31.240 and guilty. 1:55:30.800 --> 1:55:34.200 In Yes, I would love to see some sort of 1:55:34.280 --> 1:55:38.880 like you knows, psychiatrist or someone going this is the 1:55:38.920 --> 1:55:43.080 mental state of someone during that time, because those two 1:55:43.200 --> 1:55:46.240 like just monsters, yes, you know, and would be you know, 1:55:46.800 --> 1:55:49.800 you know in terms of the TV show Monsters with 1:55:49.920 --> 1:55:53.040 I Murphy, they would be I would think up there 1:55:53.120 --> 1:55:55.880 in terms of the next oh yeah, they could do 1:55:56.040 --> 1:55:57.840 like you know that Ryan Murphy could do about them, 1:55:57.880 --> 1:56:03.080 because they are such monsters. But I do wonder how 1:56:03.120 --> 1:56:07.160 you do tell that because it is such a fascinating 1:56:07.240 --> 1:56:09.800 thing where even watching the documentary, I was like, what 1:56:10.040 --> 1:56:15.360 is going on? It's so hard to know the dynamic 1:56:15.480 --> 1:56:16.520 of that relationship. 1:56:16.600 --> 1:56:21.080 I think one thing for me is that Rose killing 1:56:21.160 --> 1:56:25.400 Charmain on her own was really early in the peace. 1:56:25.520 --> 1:56:28.360 That was nineteen seventy one, So I've closed the document 1:56:28.400 --> 1:56:29.680 I think nineteen seventy. 1:56:30.120 --> 1:56:33.920 One four or maybe early seventies. 1:56:35.160 --> 1:56:40.360 That was like when they just kind of got together. Yeah, 1:56:41.000 --> 1:56:43.720 I mean I don't Again, I don't know the psychology 1:56:43.720 --> 1:56:47.840 about grooming and everything, but it's not to suggest that, 1:56:48.080 --> 1:56:51.440 you know, there'd been years of where he'd been slowly 1:56:51.640 --> 1:56:55.320 ingratiating her into his you know, sick fantasies and sadism 1:56:55.320 --> 1:56:59.200 and masochism. She killed Charmaine on her own when he 1:56:59.280 --> 1:57:02.880 was in prison. Yeah, when Jamaine was only eight, Like, 1:57:03.240 --> 1:57:06.000 they don't have been together two years, and all of 1:57:06.040 --> 1:57:09.320 the sexually motivated murders came after that. All these sexually 1:57:09.320 --> 1:57:15.080 motivated murders were in the seventies. Like it just yeah, 1:57:15.160 --> 1:57:16.880 I don't know, I don't feel sorry for that bitch. 1:57:17.040 --> 1:57:19.560 No, no, no, not at all, just not saying that. But 1:57:19.600 --> 1:57:23.200 it's yeah, it is interesting that the conversations. 1:57:22.520 --> 1:57:25.160 With people who go, but she was groomed, you know, 1:57:25.280 --> 1:57:26.800 yeah she did this, but she was groomed. She was 1:57:26.840 --> 1:57:28.960 a victim herself, And I just find it really difficult 1:57:29.200 --> 1:57:31.480 personally to feel that. 1:57:31.960 --> 1:57:35.240 Yeah, for sure, what do you think? No, I you know, 1:57:35.720 --> 1:57:39.640 I think being fifteen years old, being like, you know, 1:57:39.920 --> 1:57:44.280 she's at a bus stop, she's had like, I don't know, 1:57:44.360 --> 1:57:48.320 there's something about her. It seems so you know, I 1:57:48.320 --> 1:57:50.880 don't even know what the word is, but not not right, 1:57:51.160 --> 1:57:51.800 like you know, like. 1:57:52.000 --> 1:57:56.640 And then meeting him and saying like calling him revolting 1:57:56.680 --> 1:57:57.600 and disgusting, and. 1:57:58.360 --> 1:58:01.760 Then met him and then all so hating and having 1:58:01.840 --> 1:58:05.880 a hatred for his ex and his life before her, 1:58:07.320 --> 1:58:10.000 and having that violence and that anger, Like you just 1:58:10.120 --> 1:58:14.480 wonder what this life was and what the where that 1:58:14.640 --> 1:58:17.400 stemmed from, because there has to be something other than. 1:58:18.280 --> 1:58:20.440 I think Foliodur plays into it a lot of as well. 1:58:20.440 --> 1:58:24.560 We speaking about that before. Their concept that you know, 1:58:24.720 --> 1:58:28.720 that kind of crazy multiplied. You know, you get two 1:58:28.760 --> 1:58:34.600 people with the same wrong thoughts, bring them together, multiplies 1:58:34.640 --> 1:58:36.720 those thoughts because they're kind of feeding off each other. 1:58:37.680 --> 1:58:39.760 This is a big case of that big case of that. 1:58:42.440 --> 1:58:44.920 Huge story. Thank you, g and thank you for doing 1:58:44.960 --> 1:58:45.880 it whill you're sick as well. 1:58:46.040 --> 1:58:49.520 No no, no, no, no, thank you again. And thank you 1:58:49.560 --> 1:58:53.280 beautiful Joe Chrissy. I just kind of met between Joe 1:58:53.360 --> 1:58:56.080 Christian and Joe Crazy Christie for filling in for me 1:58:56.120 --> 1:58:59.360 when I was away. It's it's been a goddamn yet 1:58:59.440 --> 1:59:03.120 I really home twenty twenty six. No, I hope and believe, 1:59:03.400 --> 1:59:05.880 and I'm putting out into the universe twenty twenty six. 1:59:06.160 --> 1:59:10.000 I'm going to be just so much more well and 1:59:10.120 --> 1:59:15.720 come and prepared and come that's the word I'm looking at. 1:59:16.040 --> 1:59:18.640 It's going to be yeah. And I'm going to be 1:59:18.800 --> 1:59:22.680 doing this podcast over the Christmas break well, We're going 1:59:22.760 --> 1:59:25.280 to keep your company all over the Christmas holidays. We're 1:59:25.280 --> 1:59:28.280 going to have some Christmas themed shows. We have a 1:59:28.360 --> 1:59:29.360 really nice time. 1:59:29.480 --> 1:59:32.120 We're going to keep going because you know what. I 1:59:32.360 --> 1:59:35.160 have been a big podcast fan for many, many years, 1:59:35.280 --> 1:59:37.320 and I work in an industry that does not have 1:59:37.440 --> 1:59:41.480 Christmas off, and I still drive to work every day, 1:59:41.760 --> 1:59:44.720 not Christmas Day, don't you know. I'm not playing my 1:59:44.760 --> 1:59:50.400 little not playing mini violin here but over when a 1:59:50.480 --> 1:59:55.560 lot of other people have. That's funny, Yeah, Christmas break off. 1:59:55.920 --> 1:59:57.960 I'm still driving to work wanting to put on my 1:59:58.000 --> 1:59:59.160 favorite podcast in the morning. 1:59:59.200 --> 2:00:00.800 I'm really annoys. 2:00:00.440 --> 2:00:03.280 Me when they all take breaks. So we've gone, well, 2:00:03.440 --> 2:00:06.240 it annoys us as listeners when our favorite shows aren't 2:00:06.240 --> 2:00:08.600 releasing episodes. So we're going to do it. 2:00:08.640 --> 2:00:11.080 Fault you the first year doing the podcast. We want 2:00:11.080 --> 2:00:13.760 to keep going and want to keep bringing you the stories. 2:00:13.920 --> 2:00:15.960 We just like really want you to be obsessed with 2:00:16.040 --> 2:00:21.919 us if you're still here. This is such a long episode, 2:00:22.040 --> 2:00:26.080 but hey, maybe this is the new rule. If we 2:00:26.160 --> 2:00:29.000 have to take a week off, whether it be for 2:00:29.120 --> 2:00:31.880 sickness or a cruise in the Caribbean, we have to 2:00:31.880 --> 2:00:34.160 come back with like a double lengths to make up 2:00:34.160 --> 2:00:34.480 for it. 2:00:34.760 --> 2:00:38.240 And Joel Christy, I will say so. Joel came into 2:00:38.320 --> 2:00:42.800 the episode. Joel, as he messaged me on his way here, said, 2:00:43.160 --> 2:00:45.880 gaze always run late. So then Joel was like half 2:00:45.880 --> 2:00:49.240 an hour late, had to be at work, which is 2:00:49.440 --> 2:00:50.600 a national. 2:00:50.280 --> 2:00:52.440 Radio, live radio, live radio. 2:00:52.600 --> 2:00:56.000 So Joel's having a having a lovely time after we finished. 2:00:56.480 --> 2:01:00.120 So during the recording, I said to Joel, hey, this 2:01:00.280 --> 2:01:01.840 is my place. I was like, Joel, do you need 2:01:01.880 --> 2:01:04.800 to go? And Joel said, splash more shard, I've got 2:01:04.840 --> 2:01:06.800 ten more minutes, right, So we did. We did the 2:01:06.840 --> 2:01:09.280 rest of the podcast. Then I was like, we haven't 2:01:09.280 --> 2:01:11.000 got a lot of facts here, so I'll come back 2:01:11.040 --> 2:01:14.080 and do it after. I did my own recording after that. 2:01:14.360 --> 2:01:16.000 But I said to Joel after it because he was 2:01:16.040 --> 2:01:19.640 just and then told me amazing stories after that, and 2:01:19.720 --> 2:01:21.000 I said you have to go, and he goes ten 2:01:21.000 --> 2:01:22.440 more minutes, ten more minutes. 2:01:22.480 --> 2:01:25.240 And it was just so how many minutes after he 2:01:25.320 --> 2:01:26.720 initially said ten minutes, it was. 2:01:26.720 --> 2:01:30.040 About forty minutes. And so then Joel goes a splash 2:01:30.040 --> 2:01:33.400 more shardonnay. I love him, And so then was running 2:01:33.480 --> 2:01:36.000 and then looked at the time and went, oh, I'm 2:01:36.000 --> 2:01:38.320 gonna be in so much trouble for like running lap 2:01:38.440 --> 2:01:40.720 to work and everything. I was like, it's fine, it's fine. 2:01:40.800 --> 2:01:43.320 And anyway, and then after it was on the way out, 2:01:43.400 --> 2:01:44.840 so I had to come back. I have to come back. 2:01:44.840 --> 2:01:48.200 I've had so many more stories to tell, So Joel's 2:01:48.280 --> 2:01:51.280 one of those people that has to come back sometime soon. 2:01:51.600 --> 2:01:56.720 We've had amazing responses from Scott Williams aka will Patterson 2:01:56.840 --> 2:02:00.480 and Mith Warhurst as well, so those wonderful I guess 2:02:00.880 --> 2:02:02.560 the best best. 2:02:02.600 --> 2:02:05.640 Oh, you know, the only people in the whole world 2:02:05.680 --> 2:02:12.080 who are better than our guests. Right. Oh, we love you, We. 2:02:12.200 --> 2:02:14.480 Love you, and we'll be back with the mail bag 2:02:14.560 --> 2:02:16.240 section in just air more. 2:02:16.520 --> 2:02:18.520 Yeah, We're gonna make it a short one because you 2:02:18.600 --> 2:02:20.880 guys are like you feel like we've all aged in 2:02:20.920 --> 2:02:22.080 this episode. 2:02:21.680 --> 2:02:24.760 Absolutely apart from Diggs, who is sitting with me right 2:02:24.800 --> 2:02:26.400 now looking so gorgeous. 2:02:26.400 --> 2:02:28.360 It's just a little baby. 2:02:28.520 --> 2:02:34.960 We're back after this. Hey there, everybody. We just had 2:02:35.000 --> 2:02:38.920 a quick break because we needed a break after this 2:02:38.960 --> 2:02:40.040 week's episode. 2:02:40.680 --> 2:02:44.640 I know I've had like a break from the podcast 2:02:44.640 --> 2:02:47.520 from being sick, but I feel like this has made 2:02:47.560 --> 2:02:51.200 me sick in the head this week as well. Don't worry, 2:02:51.240 --> 2:02:52.720 I'm not going to take another break from the podcast. 2:02:52.760 --> 2:02:54.720 I'll do the next couple of episodes. I love you, 2:02:54.760 --> 2:02:56.600 Sammy and I love all of our listeners and I'm 2:02:56.640 --> 2:03:03.480 here for you always. Please read me the letters to well. 2:03:02.640 --> 2:03:04.400 The first one I'm not going to read to you, 2:03:04.480 --> 2:03:07.240 but I'm going to let Brook speak for her. Goddamn 2:03:08.400 --> 2:03:09.400 Sammy and Georgia. 2:03:09.320 --> 2:03:10.000 It's Brook here. 2:03:10.080 --> 2:03:12.400 I've been a long time listener of the podcast, along 2:03:12.400 --> 2:03:16.920 with your two Drunkards and previously Confessions where I first 2:03:17.440 --> 2:03:20.760 got to listen to Sammy and understanding his weekned sense 2:03:20.760 --> 2:03:24.240 of humor. We got to a lot of lockdowns with 2:03:24.400 --> 2:03:27.720 that content and took my friends when we got out 2:03:28.120 --> 2:03:30.640 of all the Melbourne lockdowns to the Comedy Republic to 2:03:30.720 --> 2:03:32.080 see a show. 2:03:32.320 --> 2:03:36.200 Didn't pre warn them of anything. It was best night 2:03:36.280 --> 2:03:36.920 of their lives. 2:03:36.920 --> 2:03:39.560 It was. It was absolutely amazing. Thank you for that. 2:03:39.960 --> 2:03:40.320 Thank you. 2:03:41.120 --> 2:03:43.680 The other thing that happened was I came home one 2:03:43.760 --> 2:03:46.520 day and looked up at the balcony across from. 2:03:46.320 --> 2:03:48.600 Here and went, it's Missy Diggins. 2:03:49.040 --> 2:03:55.480 So by some pure like fate, Sammy ended up in 2:03:55.600 --> 2:03:56.160 my building. 2:03:57.000 --> 2:04:00.640 I play it cool for quite some time, and who. 2:04:00.480 --> 2:04:07.840 Has absolutely loved comedy in Melbourne, so randomly seeing a 2:04:07.880 --> 2:04:12.120 comedian or personally through the courtyard and just playing a 2:04:12.200 --> 2:04:14.880 cool The other thing I had to play it cool 2:04:14.920 --> 2:04:18.840 with Was that Sam you mentioned on this podcast once 2:04:18.960 --> 2:04:22.600 that he thought that we could have an only murders 2:04:22.600 --> 2:04:27.480 in the building kind of situation with Rewindow and what 2:04:27.480 --> 2:04:30.960 we could probably see each other's last As much as 2:04:31.040 --> 2:04:32.240 I would love to be. 2:04:32.800 --> 2:04:36.040 Part of the podcast, maybe not in that kind of 2:04:36.040 --> 2:04:40.480 being character anything, but I love the sentiment and love 2:04:40.520 --> 2:04:43.160 the pod. Thanks guys for making it. 2:04:44.240 --> 2:04:48.680 God Brook, that is hilarious. So many times on this 2:04:48.760 --> 2:04:51.640 podcast we've spoken about so the listeners know you have 2:04:51.960 --> 2:04:56.360 since moved house, since living in that building that Brook 2:04:56.440 --> 2:04:58.640 is talking about. I assume because you can't see any 2:04:58.680 --> 2:05:01.480 of the balconies from your new place. Oh my god, Sorry, 2:05:01.520 --> 2:05:04.160 did I just docks? You docks all of the buildings 2:05:04.200 --> 2:05:06.960 in Melbourne. You can't say another balcony're from. We'd spoken 2:05:07.000 --> 2:05:08.960 about from your old apartment, how. 2:05:08.880 --> 2:05:13.000 You can see all the values everyone everyone's apartments. 2:05:12.560 --> 2:05:15.840 And that whole time one of your neighbors. 2:05:15.800 --> 2:05:18.800 Knew you and good seeing you do we meet Brookbrook? 2:05:18.800 --> 2:05:19.800 That is amazing. 2:05:21.440 --> 2:05:22.160 Oh my god. 2:05:22.480 --> 2:05:25.800 Also, what is with that building? There are not that 2:05:25.920 --> 2:05:29.680 many parliments in it, but one of your neighbors I 2:05:29.840 --> 2:05:33.040 ran into in the courtyard as well, you was the 2:05:34.000 --> 2:05:36.879 person who gave me my very first job in Tellivision. 2:05:37.000 --> 2:05:39.440 Yeah, yeah, that's incredible. 2:05:39.800 --> 2:05:44.839 I feel now, Brook, this is isn't it. I feel 2:05:44.920 --> 2:05:47.880 quite good that you moved out of that place. There 2:05:47.880 --> 2:05:53.600 are a bit too many, too many connections windows in 2:05:53.640 --> 2:05:54.800 the building too quickly. 2:05:55.640 --> 2:05:59.919 That is hilarious that you saw Digs and you Digs instantly. 2:06:00.080 --> 2:06:03.040 He would have love that. I'm sure you spoke to him. 2:06:03.360 --> 2:06:06.560 He'd absolutely love that, Brook. But it's so funny as well, 2:06:06.640 --> 2:06:11.200 because I was in the dog park behind like you were, 2:06:11.240 --> 2:06:14.120 our walk Diggs regularly, and someone the other day was like, 2:06:14.200 --> 2:06:17.760 oh my god, Digs stop it. Yeah and recognized Diggs 2:06:18.480 --> 2:06:20.800 and he was very excited to get to know them. 2:06:21.200 --> 2:06:28.280 Sammy. That's super weird, super weird. But you lived there, 2:06:28.880 --> 2:06:29.880 That is amazing. 2:06:30.080 --> 2:06:32.040 Look, I hope we had a conversation in that time 2:06:32.080 --> 2:06:34.760 as well. I hope that we were running towards that 2:06:34.760 --> 2:06:37.720 that huge gate that always broke down so many times. 2:06:37.720 --> 2:06:40.480 And also, you've said famously on this podcast many times 2:06:40.480 --> 2:06:42.280 you now lived two hundred meters from your old play. 2:06:42.360 --> 2:06:44.480 I know you don't even. 2:06:44.320 --> 2:06:48.360 Worry about it. The next one comes from our good 2:06:48.360 --> 2:06:51.360 friend Melanie. 2:06:51.880 --> 2:06:55.880 Hello, Sammy, and Georgia. This is Melanie, and I'm a 2:06:55.960 --> 2:06:58.880 huge fan of the podcast and an even bigger fan 2:06:59.120 --> 2:07:01.120 of the two of you. I love how you tell 2:07:01.120 --> 2:07:03.680 a story. It's like we're all just mates listening in. 2:07:03.880 --> 2:07:05.320 So thank you. 2:07:05.200 --> 2:07:08.840 Also for telling true crime in a way that doesn't 2:07:08.880 --> 2:07:12.040 leave me with that icky, anxious feeling that most other 2:07:12.320 --> 2:07:15.120 crime stories do. But I mean, we love to listen 2:07:15.160 --> 2:07:17.680 to them, don't we, So thank you for that keeping 2:07:17.720 --> 2:07:20.720 me entertained when I'm cleaning, driving, cooking all the things 2:07:20.720 --> 2:07:22.920 I do. I'm in the middle of listening to your 2:07:23.040 --> 2:07:25.600 latest episode with Myth, and so many moments got me 2:07:25.760 --> 2:07:28.280 super excited. So I had to leave a speak pipe 2:07:28.920 --> 2:07:33.160 because I too, am from the same little sun Asia 2:07:33.240 --> 2:07:35.520 bubble and she mentioned she was from road Cliffs, which 2:07:35.520 --> 2:07:38.400 I have no idea about. I'm in Irimpaul more Durer, 2:07:38.840 --> 2:07:42.720 So thanks for putting a little tropical North Victoria on 2:07:42.760 --> 2:07:46.840 the map there. Myth and I have quite a lot 2:07:46.840 --> 2:07:49.760 of mutual friends with you, Georgia, because I too was 2:07:50.280 --> 2:07:54.520 a geo in club menship a few years as a trapeze. 2:07:54.160 --> 2:07:55.000 Artist too, So. 2:07:56.560 --> 2:08:00.160 Yeah, you just bring back some great memories. Drop that 2:08:00.280 --> 2:08:03.080 every now and then, so it feels like a dream 2:08:03.120 --> 2:08:05.960 life now. But now that we've both mentioned to club 2:08:06.000 --> 2:08:08.480 Med a few times in the podcast, maybe they will 2:08:08.480 --> 2:08:10.640 sponsor us to go together on vacation. 2:08:10.840 --> 2:08:12.120 I think it would be so. 2:08:12.040 --> 2:08:16.200 Much fun just putting it out there anyway. Love you 2:08:16.280 --> 2:08:21.000 work guys, and yeah again, thanks for tying such wonderful. 2:08:20.640 --> 2:08:23.680 Entertaining, horrendous stories you cut out there. 2:08:23.720 --> 2:08:25.600 Oh my god, Melanie, No, no, no, I can't tell you. 2:08:25.960 --> 2:08:26.680 I can't tell you. 2:08:27.040 --> 2:08:30.080 Anyone who has been even just on a club Med 2:08:30.160 --> 2:08:33.560 holiday in their lives will know. It is like there 2:08:33.640 --> 2:08:37.080 is something about clubmates. As soon as you hear about 2:08:37.080 --> 2:08:40.200 someone else going to club Med, let alone working our 2:08:40.240 --> 2:08:43.480 clement as a geo, there is like I'm obsessed, Melanie. 2:08:43.520 --> 2:08:46.600 Please message me immediately. I need to know where you worked, 2:08:46.640 --> 2:08:50.120 which village you work when I was also artists a 2:08:50.200 --> 2:08:52.080 clubment as well. Oh my god, Melanie, please message me 2:08:52.200 --> 2:08:52.839 who taught. 2:08:52.680 --> 2:08:56.879 You to betist club Med? But like someone just randomly 2:08:56.880 --> 2:08:57.400 there taught you. 2:08:57.840 --> 2:09:00.720 Club Med is a result chain people who don't know, 2:09:01.400 --> 2:09:04.920 and some of the result loatus like the White Lotus, 2:09:05.120 --> 2:09:09.720 Less murder more Circus, which is the name of my memoir. 2:09:13.040 --> 2:09:17.520 Some of the resorts have a flying trapeze as like 2:09:17.560 --> 2:09:21.320 an active can do. So my family used to go 2:09:21.920 --> 2:09:25.560 on club Med holidays growing up, so I learned the 2:09:25.560 --> 2:09:29.360 trapeze over time going on holidays. Then I got a 2:09:29.480 --> 2:09:34.440 job working at the only Australian club Med on Linderman 2:09:34.520 --> 2:09:37.360 Island in Sundays which is no longer there. And I 2:09:37.400 --> 2:09:43.240 was working on the reception there and further learned learned 2:09:43.280 --> 2:09:47.160 more trapeze skills while I was there, and then ended 2:09:47.240 --> 2:09:49.920 up being transferred to the club Med in Malaysia called 2:09:49.960 --> 2:09:54.520 Cheriting Beach as a circus geo, a trapeze instructor, so 2:09:54.600 --> 2:09:59.280 I taught the guests Tropez and I performed circus acts. 2:10:00.080 --> 2:10:03.600 Show stop laughing. I know it sounds like a gag. 2:10:03.720 --> 2:10:06.520 When do I tell people these random little like tidbits 2:10:06.520 --> 2:10:08.520 from my life? Every friend of mine's end to me 2:10:08.520 --> 2:10:10.200 the other day, how old are you? 2:10:10.280 --> 2:10:10.360 Like? 2:10:10.440 --> 2:10:14.480 How why do you have so many careers? Where of 2:10:14.560 --> 2:10:18.640 these come from? Melanie? Please measure me. I'm desperate to 2:10:18.680 --> 2:10:22.640 know which club man he worked down queen and with who? 2:10:22.680 --> 2:10:26.920 Because with whom? Because like, oh my god, oh my god. 2:10:27.080 --> 2:10:31.560 Sorry, well because I remember once in a talent show 2:10:31.680 --> 2:10:34.880 my parents we didn't enter retalent show. But my parents 2:10:34.880 --> 2:10:37.160 once took us to like a on a family vacation, 2:10:37.240 --> 2:10:39.120 I think in Queensland and. 2:10:40.280 --> 2:10:42.840 Tell me you went to lindom And Island. I will 2:10:42.840 --> 2:10:43.320 lose my sho. 2:10:43.480 --> 2:10:46.720 No, but mum drank a bit of linderman beIN sixty five. 2:10:47.640 --> 2:10:50.320 But but yeah, we were like we were. At one 2:10:50.360 --> 2:10:53.800 point I got up with my brother and did Don't 2:10:53.840 --> 2:10:55.560 Blame It on the Sunshine. 2:10:56.080 --> 2:10:57.480 That was one of the club med songs. 2:10:57.520 --> 2:11:01.040 Sorry, was it on the book? Was it? Michael Jackson 2:11:01.160 --> 2:11:03.560 checks and five Jackson five? Yeah, and did that and 2:11:03.600 --> 2:11:06.480 it was just like like a quick like when got 2:11:06.560 --> 2:11:09.120 up like that and then like that and it was 2:11:09.200 --> 2:11:12.240 just like a like a quick little the wiggles, like 2:11:12.240 --> 2:11:14.640 the are you saying that? 2:11:14.720 --> 2:11:15.840 The two of you got up and did. 2:11:15.760 --> 2:11:19.400 That like for a talent show made okay. It wasn't 2:11:19.480 --> 2:11:20.960 like were rehearsed it don't need to. 2:11:21.120 --> 2:11:23.640 It wasn't like the whole like people were on stage 2:11:23.680 --> 2:11:26.680 doing it and you were copying them. No, oh my god, 2:11:26.720 --> 2:11:29.120 I I thought we were going to have a relation 2:11:29.240 --> 2:11:30.800 that you've been on Holiday Club mean before. 2:11:30.840 --> 2:11:32.400 No, we entered a talent show. 2:11:32.200 --> 2:11:36.800 To do that that I need to see footage of yeah. 2:11:36.520 --> 2:11:36.840 How long. 2:11:38.120 --> 2:11:41.160 Oh, we would have been about like twenty twenty one. No, no, 2:11:41.200 --> 2:11:43.280 we would have been. We would have been we would 2:11:43.320 --> 2:11:45.800 have been like I know, like he's a year older 2:11:45.800 --> 2:11:48.520 than me. I reckon like six and seven. Oh god, 2:11:49.760 --> 2:11:52.480 me and my friend Davin we did tap dancing together. 2:11:52.520 --> 2:11:55.800 You've met Davin and we got footage of me and 2:11:55.880 --> 2:12:00.879 him doing tap dancing together to the song My Boy Lollipop, 2:12:01.360 --> 2:12:02.400 and that was the song that went. 2:12:02.480 --> 2:12:04.959 I'm sorry we have to finished the episode here because 2:12:05.240 --> 2:12:08.920 I cannot deal with that real way too. 2:12:08.760 --> 2:12:11.520 Cute recommendations because I've already mentioned this once on the 2:12:11.520 --> 2:12:14.560 podcast before, but why is crackodcast? 2:12:15.560 --> 2:12:18.600 I wanted to bring it up because you recommended it. 2:12:20.440 --> 2:12:23.880 I listened to it, loved I don't know why not. 2:12:24.000 --> 2:12:27.680 Everyone is talking incredible wise Crack absolutely incredible. It's kind 2:12:27.680 --> 2:12:31.480 of like a baby Reindeer esque vibe. Stick with it 2:12:32.040 --> 2:12:33.680 because I think when you first listen to it, you 2:12:33.720 --> 2:12:35.600 don't know how amazing it's going to be, so stick 2:12:35.680 --> 2:12:36.000 with it. 2:12:36.000 --> 2:12:37.880 It's one of those ones, is what I loved about it. 2:12:38.320 --> 2:12:42.640 I kept thinking different things, like I found myself being 2:12:42.680 --> 2:12:46.520 on different sides and thinking it was going to evolved, Oh, I. 2:12:46.480 --> 2:12:50.720 Really like Yeah. And the other one is Bethstead, which 2:12:50.760 --> 2:12:52.280 is really interesting. 2:12:52.440 --> 2:12:55.240 Everyone's talking about it at the moment. I feel like 2:12:55.280 --> 2:12:59.800 we can't really say much about that without giving anything. 2:13:01.000 --> 2:13:02.760 Just listen to it. 2:13:02.760 --> 2:13:06.520 It's, you know, not fascinating. 2:13:06.600 --> 2:13:09.880 It's someone's real life story about something they've gone through 2:13:11.680 --> 2:13:18.680 unwillingly via a podcast. As in, they've lived this because 2:13:18.680 --> 2:13:20.800 of a podcast, and now they've done a podcast about it. 2:13:21.080 --> 2:13:26.400 Yes, yeah, so yeah, So listen to those two great recommendations. Also, 2:13:26.600 --> 2:13:32.040 g Love has just finished her podcast are Everyone Has 2:13:32.080 --> 2:13:32.400 an X? 2:13:33.200 --> 2:13:37.440 Took a long time. I finished it. I have finished 2:13:37.560 --> 2:13:41.920 the most recent scenes. It will be back. Everyone Has 2:13:41.960 --> 2:13:45.800 an X. There are seven seasons now available, ten episodes 2:13:45.840 --> 2:13:51.080 each season. Every story is a different standalone story, someone's 2:13:51.200 --> 2:13:54.280 story about their ex. Some of them are crime based, 2:13:54.520 --> 2:13:56.640 some of them are about the breakups. Some of them 2:13:56.800 --> 2:14:04.200 are about grief and prison and catfishing. Catfishing. 2:14:05.480 --> 2:14:07.560 Yeah, you and I are going to have a great 2:14:07.560 --> 2:14:10.200 week because you and I are going to see Genevieve 2:14:10.360 --> 2:14:14.600 Morris in a play this week. We're also seeing Alan Davies, 2:14:14.640 --> 2:14:17.760 the great British comedian, this Saturday night, which we're very 2:14:17.800 --> 2:14:18.800 excited about. 2:14:18.520 --> 2:14:20.840 It, and I'm putting up my Christmas treet on Sunday morning. 2:14:20.880 --> 2:14:24.960 Now we goddamn Christmas tree. Thank you was always everybody 2:14:25.000 --> 2:14:28.240 for leaving five star reviews, five star ratings. You have 2:14:28.360 --> 2:14:31.280 to do that right now and whatever app you're on, 2:14:31.320 --> 2:14:34.120 the more you do that, the more we can keep 2:14:34.160 --> 2:14:38.520 doing this goddamn podcast. Another way is simply sharing this 2:14:38.560 --> 2:14:42.120 podcast with a friend also writing to me at Sammy 2:14:42.240 --> 2:14:44.919 at just Another company dot com dot au. 2:14:45.240 --> 2:14:47.200 Please let us know if you have listened to this 2:14:47.520 --> 2:14:50.720 entire episode in one sitting without pressing. 2:14:50.440 --> 2:14:54.360 Pause even once even and if you have. 2:14:54.960 --> 2:14:58.960 Please sit us a selfie of your bloodshot eyes. Yeah, 2:14:59.480 --> 2:15:00.760 and I hope you don't have to work at four 2:15:00.760 --> 2:15:03.040 today tomorrow morning. Oh my god. We love you so much. 2:15:03.080 --> 2:15:05.200 Thank you for listening to our husky voice for so long. 2:15:05.600 --> 2:15:09.040 Thank you Sammy and Joel for covering for me while 2:15:09.040 --> 2:15:13.080 I was sick. Thank you all for just being like beautiful. 2:15:13.160 --> 2:15:16.920 And thank you for to Jonathan Bailey for existing and 2:15:16.960 --> 2:15:19.600 for one day in the future marrying me. Okay, love you, 2:15:19.720 --> 2:15:20.400 Bye bye,