Speaker 1: In May nineteen ninety two, Gloucester Police in England received
Speaker 1: a tip that a young teenage girl had opened up
Speaker 1: about having been sexually abused by her father.
Speaker 2: Oh god.
Speaker 1: The girl had nine siblings, only seven of whom still
Speaker 1: lived at home at twenty five Cromwell Street. The two
Speaker 1: no longer lived there, had left of their own accord,
Speaker 1: or had they. Police had no idea that this one
Speaker 1: tip would end up uncovering one of the most horrific
Speaker 1: stories they would ever hear, and we will ever hear,
Speaker 1: I hope, of the most heinous crimes, including multiple murders
Speaker 1: over twenty years. Twenty years committed by a husband and wife.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, this is the story of the House
Speaker 1: of Horrors and Fred and Rosemary West.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I know this story, and I don't
Speaker 2: know this story, so I'm very excited to hear you
Speaker 2: tell this story.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, after researching this one deeply, I know it very well.
Speaker 2: Hey there, everybody, welcome to not another crime podcast. You
Speaker 2: love and I'm back, I'm saying Peterson, and I'm back.
Speaker 2: You're always, I'm always, and I am not as always.
Speaker 2: If you want to skip ahead and just listen to
Speaker 2: the story, the time code is in the show notes.
Speaker 1: And we're not going to yab it for too long.
Speaker 2: You're going too long. It is absolutely but g love.
Speaker 2: You've been sick recently.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. I feel like our listeners who haven't
Speaker 1: known me before this year will think I'm all sick
Speaker 1: and or on holidays. And I will say that this
Speaker 1: year has been permeated by both of those.
Speaker 2: Yes it has.
Speaker 1: I'm not usually this sick. I've been very rundown.
Speaker 2: Are you usually this holiday?
Speaker 1: Yes? I don't understand the point of working if it's
Speaker 1: not to spend your money on travel like that is
Speaker 1: the biggest said it just then, and I'll say it
Speaker 1: again later when you least expect it. So yes, I
Speaker 1: do travel a lot sometimes holidays. Sometimes it's work, sometimes
Speaker 1: it's both. But I have been sick often this year.
Speaker 1: It's not fun for me. It's also not fun for you,
Speaker 1: as my podcast partner. It's not fun for the listeners
Speaker 1: who are like this bitch. Like the whole one of
Speaker 1: this podcast when it started was like, I'm a journal
Speaker 1: so I'm going to tell you crime stories, and it's.
Speaker 2: It's been a lot of years.
Speaker 1: That's right, So yes, thank you very much for carrying me.
Speaker 1: I've just been so rundown, so sick, and then I
Speaker 1: finally got over like the LOGI part of it that
Speaker 1: stopped me from physically getting out of bed for a
Speaker 1: full week, the lurgy, and when I finally could get
Speaker 1: out of bed again, my body punished me by just
Speaker 1: simply removing my voice, which is also fun for my
Speaker 1: job as a radio.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, so what you've been producing this week.
Speaker 1: Has been producing. I have literally not been able to speak,
Speaker 1: so I've just been writing stuff for everyone, just been
Speaker 1: you know, real a guy around the office, and finally
Speaker 1: today I was back on air. I know I always
Speaker 1: have a husky voice, but I'm also where it is
Speaker 1: huskier than usual. But I'm back and I'm going to
Speaker 1: do I think the longest story I've ever done, which
Speaker 1: is great to do with asky voice. So apologize if
Speaker 1: there's some like reverse ASMI stuff happening. If your ASMR
Speaker 1: kink is coughing, is husky voices, You're welcome.
Speaker 2: You're welcome. God, You're welcome, And thank you to your
Speaker 2: crazy for filling love my God.
Speaker 1: Thank you to Joel. So. Joel has been a dear
Speaker 1: friend of mine for I think like eight or nine
Speaker 1: years now, and I love him and Australia loves him,
Speaker 1: and we asked.
Speaker 2: Him on this podcastle I was always telling.
Speaker 1: Him he laughs. And then when he finally came on,
Speaker 1: all on him here. Thank you Joel, Thank you Sammy
Speaker 1: as always for just being the goddamn best and somehow
Speaker 1: just always delivering. Well, you're just the best anyway. One
Speaker 1: thing that has happened it is important to mention since
Speaker 1: we last recorded you and I together, is that Wicked
Speaker 1: for Good has been released. Yes, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: harp on it too much, but it would be remiss
Speaker 1: of me not to bring it up. Also, it is
Speaker 1: at the forefront of my mind every second in the day, so.
Speaker 2: I happy to bring it out.
Speaker 3: YEA.
Speaker 1: Theater girlies have always known Jonathan Balley is the sexiest
Speaker 1: man alive.
Speaker 2: So who is this person? So he is? So he's
Speaker 2: a Broadway.
Speaker 1: Who Okay, he's English. He started as a West End performer,
Speaker 1: he was. He became more commercially known when he featured
Speaker 1: in Bridgeton and now he is very world famous and
Speaker 1: will go down in history as playing Fierro in both
Speaker 1: of the playing in both of the Wicked movies. And
Speaker 1: this year he has been voted People's Sexiest man Alive.
Speaker 1: And actually I think that was announced when I was
Speaker 1: last recording, But since then Wicked for Good has come
Speaker 1: out and I just like.
Speaker 2: We got passed up again again again Anthony Wig that's right,
Speaker 2: he is.
Speaker 1: The first openly gay man to be named People's sexiest
Speaker 1: man alive.
Speaker 2: Really, what about David Williams, He's.
Speaker 1: Never actually been named?
Speaker 2: Really otten everyone great reference.
Speaker 1: He is the sexiest man alive. I am so deeply
Speaker 1: obsessed with him. That's not about Wicked, that's just about him.
Speaker 1: He's really hot. Just anyway, Wicked for Good has been
Speaker 1: torn apart by critics. Really, I will say the only
Speaker 1: thing I'm gonna.
Speaker 4: Sun's first worship No, you know, sorry, I'll put that
Speaker 4: on myself when people comment on something haven't actually seen.
Speaker 1: I have heard that it is the worsho of all time.
Speaker 1: It has also been renewed, renewed for a second season.
Speaker 1: I think there has been so much hate watching, which
Speaker 1: I understand because Mum and Me Too is inarguably the
Speaker 1: worst movie of all time, and I think it six
Speaker 1: times the Austronimo My Mummy or with a double M
Speaker 1: to the musical is the worst movie of all time
Speaker 1: and one.
Speaker 2: Of my favorites say you can't rag on your employee
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: I watched it actually get on the weekend through the
Speaker 1: People's We Could. Two has been not torn apart, but
Speaker 1: it's it's critics of how to go at it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right.
Speaker 1: I have two things to say about that. One is
Speaker 1: one is people are talking about it as a piece
Speaker 1: of cinema that has been created this year. It is
Speaker 1: the second half of a musical that was written and
Speaker 1: it has been released since two thousand and three, so
Speaker 1: the story has already written. Stop commenting on that is
Speaker 1: my first thing to say.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: The second thing to say is people always rag on
Speaker 1: things that are popular, and that wasn't meant to be
Speaker 1: a wicked one, but it happened to be, and particularly
Speaker 1: that women really like. And that's just gonna be my
Speaker 1: only feminist rant for today that just because it's popular
Speaker 1: and women love it does not mean you have to
Speaker 1: say it shit.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: Cynthia Arrivo singing No Good Deed was an out of
Speaker 1: body experience for me and no one can take that
Speaker 1: away from me.
Speaker 2: And Anthony Lloyd Webbert wrote that and retired, and he's
Speaker 2: lived a very comfortable life.
Speaker 1: I think it's time to get in today's story.
Speaker 2: Well, no, it's okay, so you liked it though, you
Speaker 2: thought it was good.
Speaker 1: So I enjoyed the first one more the first. So
Speaker 1: if you haven't seen Wicked the movies, it's not a
Speaker 1: movie and a sequel. It is one story.
Speaker 2: Cut in half.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is the musical cut in half, but
Speaker 1: not enough. The first half of the musical and the
Speaker 1: second half of the musical. The second act of the
Speaker 1: musical is significantly shorter than the first. Added two new
Speaker 1: songs to the second Wicked movie.
Speaker 2: Which suck, which intended.
Speaker 1: The new song suck. I'm very happy to.
Speaker 2: Say that new songs wedged in.
Speaker 1: Two new songs. They both absolutely.
Speaker 2: Suck, levitating Julia No.
Speaker 1: But as cliches that the one that alphabar the Wicked
Speaker 1: Witch things is called There's No Place Like Home. It's
Speaker 1: like they gave school kids an assignment a song to
Speaker 1: write a song that the Wicked Witch would have sung, like, Oh,
Speaker 1: There's no plates like Home. Oh so unique. The other
Speaker 1: song of Glinda sings, it's called The Girl and the Bubble.
Speaker 1: They're both shit. They're both basic anyway, whatever, we'll move
Speaker 1: on from that. The second half or the second act
Speaker 1: of the musical is not as good as the first.
Speaker 1: The first half is way more upbeat, fun, happy, musical
Speaker 1: dancing sing along. The second art is dark and deep
Speaker 1: and emotional. The second movie, to me, was less an
Speaker 1: enjoyable experience, but it's meant to be like that. It's
Speaker 1: not an enjoyable experience. It is a deeply emotional, beautiful, devastating,
Speaker 1: heartbreaking experience. And I said I would say two things
Speaker 1: about it. The third thing I will say about people.
Speaker 1: Can the men male critics saying the second movie was
Speaker 1: not as good do and will never understand the depth
Speaker 1: and complexities of female friendships. That's all I have to say,
Speaker 1: thank you and good night.
Speaker 2: And Andrew Lord Webber would be spinning in his Grave's
Speaker 2: not He's not.
Speaker 1: Definitely definitely posted on Instagram today. He posted on Instagram.
Speaker 2: Okay, at the time recording, Angela Webber.
Speaker 1: Don't put the mos on Andrew.
Speaker 2: Because Max Paul Sheffield is still alive, so I imagine
Speaker 2: they're similar ages.
Speaker 1: If no, no, no, I'm not even going to say it's okay.
Speaker 2: At the time of recording, he is not dead. And
Speaker 2: if this comes out on Monday and Andrela Webber is
Speaker 2: still not dead.
Speaker 1: Then we have, as in often another crime podcast where
Speaker 1: we investigate where the Sammy murdered and.
Speaker 2: I was nowhere near there at the time. Hey, enjoy
Speaker 2: this week's episode. Please the word well yeah, I know.
Speaker 2: Please do leave us a five star rating, five star review.
Speaker 2: The more you share this podcast around, the more we
Speaker 2: can keep doing it. We love doing this podcast, so
Speaker 2: please do continually share this with a friend, friends ends,
Speaker 2: lots of them, heaps of friends and rating. Leave if
Speaker 2: you want, leave a five star rating, five star review.
Speaker 2: Can they follow us?
Speaker 1: Yes, they can on Instagram and TikTok, both of them
Speaker 1: have the same handle not Another Crime Podcast. They can
Speaker 1: also email us at Sammy at just Another podcast dot
Speaker 1: com dot are you just an the company?
Speaker 2: Do it? Do it again? Quick? You got it?
Speaker 1: They can email us at Sammy at just Another company
Speaker 1: dot com dot.
Speaker 2: You that was good that episode?
Speaker 1: Is this like forty seven or forty yeah?
Speaker 2: And also a voicemail which we call a speak pipe
Speaker 2: is the website. All of the links are in.
Speaker 1: The show and if you do so, we'll play it
Speaker 1: in the mailbox.
Speaker 2: Believe it will play it, hey, enjoy again listen, listen
Speaker 2: to this week's episode.
Speaker 1: Listen to this episode, and if you are negatively affected
Speaker 1: by it, yes, don't leave a review about that. Yes,
Speaker 1: email us about that. Yeah, but still leave a five
Speaker 1: star rating for the podcast in general.
Speaker 2: And Andreela Webber, May you rest or not rest in peace?
Speaker 2: This is This is this week's episode.
Speaker 1: This episode, All of our episodes that deal with crime
Speaker 1: obviously come with trigger warnings. I want to give some
Speaker 1: really strong trigger warnings up the top of this one.
Speaker 1: In particular, it deals with the deaths of children and
Speaker 1: physical and sexual abuse of adults and children. Now I
Speaker 1: won't go I don't go into detail about the sexual abuse,
Speaker 1: but it does come up unfortunately, So lots of trigger
Speaker 1: warnings here. All right, are you ready?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Fred West was born in nineteen forty one in rural
Speaker 1: Herod for Shit and now Herod for Shit. Yes, I
Speaker 1: think it's that, like Leicester is Leicester not life. I
Speaker 1: think it's Herod for shit, har for ship, Herod for shit,
Speaker 1: and I apologize if it's not. In England into a
Speaker 1: large and economically struggling family. His parents were named Walter
Speaker 1: and Daisy, which sounds like a Disney couple, it.
Speaker 2: Does, and also like very British as well, Walter, they.
Speaker 1: Were not a Disney couple, that's right. Oh yeah, maybe.
Speaker 2: That's why.
Speaker 1: My brain is not that like. It's pretty easy to read.
Speaker 1: Fred was the second of eight children, but two of
Speaker 1: his siblings died during all shortly after childbirth. Okay, Fred
Speaker 1: was born a year after Daisy's first daughter, Violet, had died.
Speaker 1: By all accounts, Fred was very much Daisy's favorite, even
Speaker 1: above her husband. Because of this, he did not have
Speaker 1: a good relationship with his father, Walter, because you know,
Speaker 1: being jealous of a baby is totally normal and.
Speaker 2: Fine, normal and fine and cool and actually pretty cool.
Speaker 1: The living space where they lived on a farm was
Speaker 1: very cramped. The bathrooms were simply buckets, and they ate
Speaker 1: a lot of the time. All the children ate in
Speaker 1: a day was the unpasteurized milk Dad would bring home.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay.
Speaker 1: Despite being very much loved by his mother at home,
Speaker 1: it was not a good upbringing and he did not
Speaker 1: have good relationships otherwise. Fred was bullied for being a
Speaker 1: mummies boy him and was described as dim, which it's
Speaker 1: not a nice way to describe someone. But I enjoy.
Speaker 2: That work dim is dim is a fun way to
Speaker 2: describe very.
Speaker 1: Like you can see it's like a light.
Speaker 2: Not yeah, yeah, it makes total sense when you say it,
Speaker 2: but everyone knows exactly what you mean if you've never
Speaker 2: heard the wood.
Speaker 1: And also were allowed to call for a dim because
Speaker 1: he's much worse than that. His brothers, Doug and John
Speaker 1: in particular, really hated him, and they would all the
Speaker 1: siblings would be physically punished by their father. Fred dropped
Speaker 1: out of school early. He was academically stunted, but he
Speaker 1: was dim exactly. But also there were questions raised about
Speaker 1: whether he was also stunted in other areas, particularly socially, emotionally,
Speaker 1: and even sexually. He would later say he was sexually
Speaker 1: abused by his mother, but I'm very much noting that
Speaker 1: he was the only one that ever said this. His
Speaker 1: brothers have come out and said that they don't believe
Speaker 1: it to be true at all of Fred's accusations, and
Speaker 1: they may be, but Fred is not reliable perhaps a
Speaker 1: reliable source. And that his dad taught him about sex
Speaker 1: by showing him how to do it, not on him,
Speaker 1: but I don't need to go now. But his dad
Speaker 1: taught him about sex, which is not very nice. By
Speaker 1: his mid teens, Fred had developed a very strong interest
Speaker 1: in the female sex and in the idea of sex.
Speaker 1: If he saw a girl he wanted, he would go
Speaker 1: for it whether he wanted it or not. And I
Speaker 1: don't mean in sexual I'm not insinuating rape, but he
Speaker 1: would just you know, like physically grab it girl and
Speaker 1: try to get them to come with him. And like
Speaker 1: at dances and on the streets, he was grabby and
Speaker 1: touchy and yuck. He had a bad motorbike accident in
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty eight and he was in a coma hanging
Speaker 1: sorry what does that make him? About sixteen seventeen and
Speaker 1: he was in a coma for a week. They didn't
Speaker 1: know if he would sig week.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh wow. It must have been a really bad one.
Speaker 1: Very bad. He slowly regained the ability to speak, but
Speaker 1: he had a significant head injury, and it's not known
Speaker 1: if this caused lasting brain damage, plus a severe fear
Speaker 1: and hatred of hospitals full shadowing. During his recovery, he
Speaker 1: would still go out and try to live a normal life.
Speaker 1: But after the accident, everyone in his life noted a
Speaker 1: big change in his attitude, particularly when it came to anger.
Speaker 1: He became much more aggressive and angered very quickly.
Speaker 2: He didn't seem great before the start, so exactly he.
Speaker 1: Told people who was deeply unhappy living at them and
Speaker 1: living under his parents' rule. In the early sixties, he
Speaker 1: started to get in regular trouble with the law, mostly shoplifting,
Speaker 1: petty thefts, and fights. The worst of his crimes at
Speaker 1: this time was that he had sexually assaulted his young
Speaker 1: teenage sister. He didn't understand why his parents and the
Speaker 1: police were so angry. He admitted while being questioned to
Speaker 1: assaulting multiple young women and girls and didn't realize why
Speaker 1: everyone had a problem with this.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. I guess if like, you know, not
Speaker 2: excuse him this at all. But I think, like, if
Speaker 2: his dad has shown him certain things, he's obviously got
Speaker 2: a very warped sense of what's right and what's wrong.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of all this background, I suppose, from
Speaker 1: all the research suggests in absolutely no way, shape or
Speaker 1: form excusing or explaining anything, but it does. There is
Speaker 1: a lot about the multiple head injuries. I haven't gone
Speaker 1: into the others, but there were other things like fights
Speaker 1: where he had bad knocks to the head and hear.
Speaker 2: Him talk as well. He does, like his voice is
Speaker 2: kind of it's a strange voice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well he's got a very very low IQ and
Speaker 1: so yeah, I mean the way I've put it is
Speaker 1: stunted in kind of all aspects of you know, emotion,
Speaker 1: social interactions, everything.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty two, he met eighteen year old Rena,
Speaker 1: who was also described as a difficult child. Again was
Speaker 1: in trouble for petty theft fighting. She'd been moved around
Speaker 1: to different family members to try to bring her back
Speaker 1: on track. She was actually from Glasgow but was living
Speaker 1: in England where and when she met Fred.
Speaker 2: Just a side note, that's my favorite accent in the Glaswegian.
Speaker 1: Accent Glasgow, exactly exactly right. The only favorite, the way
Speaker 1: I can think of a Scottish accent is this one
Speaker 1: a little bit, this one sentence that's from like a
Speaker 1: little nursery rhyme type thing that my friend Shanaid, who
Speaker 1: is Scottish, taught me. I don't know the rest of
Speaker 1: the rhyme, but one because Dani wertruzers, Oh great, that's
Speaker 1: maybe what Marina sounds Dan and Shrek. Come on, do Shrek?
Speaker 1: I know you want to come on?
Speaker 2: I don't know what the regular phrase I used to
Speaker 2: say as Shrek was, but it was like gama swamp,
Speaker 2: don't queer? Was that said exactly that?
Speaker 5: So?
Speaker 1: Yes, Rena was Glaswegian but living in England when she
Speaker 1: met Fred. She was working as a sex worker. And
Speaker 1: when she met Fred she was pregnant to a Pakistani man.
Speaker 1: It is speculated that she may have moved to England
Speaker 1: because her family didn't agree with the pregnancy right, particularly
Speaker 1: given it was going to be a mixed race child.
Speaker 2: And this was the sixties.
Speaker 1: Was it sixties?
Speaker 2: She was years old? Oh my god, And you imagine
Speaker 2: sex work at that time. They didn't call it that,
Speaker 2: but sex work. You imagine just how horrible that would
Speaker 2: have been for her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the racism with it as well. Right, But
Speaker 1: when she met Fred, they quickly got into a relationship,
Speaker 1: and when her baby daughter arrived, the couple told people
Speaker 1: that she had actually lost her baby during childbirth and
Speaker 1: they had adopted this baby to explain why the baby
Speaker 1: girl had darker skin than both of her parents. The
Speaker 1: baby's name was Charmaine.
Speaker 2: Have you seen the film The Jerk with Steve Martin
Speaker 2: and his and he's grown up and finds out he's adopted,
Speaker 2: and he's with a clearly African American, beautiful family and
Speaker 2: he finds out he's adopted that like when he was
Speaker 2: like twenty years like Elf, Yeah, it's exactly like als well,
Speaker 2: Elf as well.
Speaker 1: If he doesn't know he's a human by now.
Speaker 3: He's.
Speaker 2: Beautiful because my brother was adopted. And I think, you know,
Speaker 2: it can be hard sometimes realizing that you feel different
Speaker 2: or you're look different or anything. And you know, obviously
Speaker 2: back then that would have been harder. You know, my
Speaker 2: parents found it hard to explain to people, you know,
Speaker 2: you just so, so I imagine at this time it
Speaker 2: would have been even harder, Oh God, to explain.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and isn't that awful as well? But you know,
Speaker 1: people just go, well, why yeah, exactly. A friend of
Speaker 1: mine is adopted. She was born in Korea and was
Speaker 1: adopted to an Australian family, a white Australian family, and
Speaker 1: she said she didn't have any concept that she didn't
Speaker 1: look the same as her until she started school and
Speaker 1: people asked her why she looked different to her perpent
Speaker 1: Oh wow, isn't that fast?
Speaker 2: Quickly? I found a book when I was really young,
Speaker 2: and the book was called why am I adopted? And
Speaker 2: I thought it for me?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Sammy, Oh stop, I'm just picturing kittling
Speaker 1: face kid photos.
Speaker 2: I've seen of you, just asking the question. Oh.
Speaker 1: My sister always tried to tell me I was adopted
Speaker 1: because she didn't like me and my mom. I like
Speaker 1: the spitting image.
Speaker 2: Of it, exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, So baby Charmain arrived in nineteen sixty two.
Speaker 1: Fred became very obsessed with Rena, very quickly, thinking she
Speaker 1: was quite worldly and wild. You know, she'd come from
Speaker 1: a different country, she you know, had a baby, she'd
Speaker 1: been working in the sex industry. He would demand sex
Speaker 1: from her whenever he wanted it, and yeah, and Rena
Speaker 1: essentially felt she had no choice. She also became obsessed
Speaker 1: with him in what I am describing as a very
Speaker 1: toxic way. She tattooed his name onto her with a
Speaker 1: backyard tattoo pin.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that would be so painful and not highland
Speaker 2: as well?
Speaker 1: Yeah also that also that, Yeah, don't do that at home.
Speaker 1: It's been suggested that Rena was likely seeking stability and
Speaker 1: the love she felt she didn't otherwise have in her life.
Speaker 1: They married in nineteen sixty two, the year they met
Speaker 1: Fred aged twenty one and Rena eighteen. They moved out
Speaker 1: together back to Scotland, where Rena was from, with baby Charmain.
Speaker 1: Fred kept his worrying sexual behaviors up and encouraged Rena
Speaker 1: to go back to sex work to help them make money,
Speaker 1: but he would berate and punish her for sleeping with
Speaker 1: other people. It seemed he really used this as a
Speaker 1: form of serious control and manipulation. He essentially brought up
Speaker 1: baby Charmain as his own, but he didn't ever really
Speaker 1: bond with her. Fred and Rena together biologically this time,
Speaker 1: had a second baby, Anna Marie, in nineteen sixty four,
Speaker 1: only a little over a year older than Charmain. As
Speaker 1: soon as she arrived, Fred neglected Charmain even more. In
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five, Fred was working as an ice cream
Speaker 1: van driver, which like our yeah, so when you know
Speaker 1: it's not gross to be ice cream. This is one
Speaker 1: of the most heinous men in history.
Speaker 2: And like.
Speaker 1: By then the marriage was really faltering. He was cheating
Speaker 1: on Rena a lot, and over time he didn't even
Speaker 1: try to hide it. Rena hide a nanny to help
Speaker 1: look after the girls. Her name was Isa McNeil. She
Speaker 1: moved in with them and was helping them. She was
Speaker 1: a teenage girl herself. Isa described Rena and Fred's marriage
Speaker 1: as very tumultuous and very violent. He said, the sorry,
Speaker 1: she said. The little girl slept in a bottom bunk
Speaker 1: with bars fitted to essentially cage them in, and they
Speaker 1: were only allowed out while Fred was at work. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, a friend of Isa's.
Speaker 2: I guess, so he wouldn't guess.
Speaker 1: He was so violent and youk but also he just didn't.
Speaker 1: He didn't want them around. He wanted his time and
Speaker 1: his peace at home alone. A friend of Isa's, so
Speaker 1: is the nanny. A friend of hers named Anne four,
Speaker 1: who was also from Scotland, came over to England and
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time at the home as well.
Speaker 1: She was sixteen. Her boyfriend had been killed in a
Speaker 1: workplace accident and she really leant on her friend Issa
Speaker 1: for support and essentially ended up boarding with Fred and
Speaker 1: Rena as well. In November of the same year, baby
Speaker 1: Anna Marie was born, Fred accidentally hit and killed a
Speaker 1: child with the ice cream van.
Speaker 2: Oh how horrific, and it was.
Speaker 1: Ruled that this was totally an accident. How horrific for
Speaker 1: everyone involved with that, but the town very much turned
Speaker 1: against him. It would be very hard to see the
Speaker 1: person that that had been behind the wheel when that happened,
Speaker 1: whether they were deemed responsible or not. So Fred made
Speaker 1: the decision to move back to England. He didn't want
Speaker 1: to live in this town anymore. He took the two
Speaker 1: baby girls and moved, while Rena set herself up to
Speaker 1: move as well. I don't really I couldn't really find
Speaker 1: out why she didn't move straight away as well. I
Speaker 1: don't know if it was a bit of he just
Speaker 1: went I'm getting out of be By and then she
Speaker 1: was like, okay, hang on, let me come. But three
Speaker 1: months later she moved over and joined them as well,
Speaker 1: and she also brought I.
Speaker 2: Thought that might have been a split. I thought that
Speaker 2: might have been a way to get out.
Speaker 1: She brought Isa McNeil and Anne McFall, the two kind
Speaker 1: of pseudo well you know, nanny and kind of border
Speaker 1: slash nanny with her back to England as well. Both
Speaker 1: these girls came from very poor backgrounds and hoped England
Speaker 1: would be a better place for them to find jobs
Speaker 1: and make a start on new lives. They all so, Fred, Rena,
Speaker 1: Issa and the two baby girls all moved into a
Speaker 1: caravan together.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, crammed.
Speaker 1: And Fred found work as a lorry driver for a
Speaker 1: local abatoir, which I just feel like the only time
Speaker 1: I hear about people people who aren't think yeah. And
Speaker 1: Rina got a job at a local cafe. Fred did
Speaker 1: not stop his violent outbursts, and he also started turning
Speaker 1: on Isa in particular, as well as Rena and Nanny.
Speaker 1: So we kind of any female who was kind of
Speaker 1: living with him, and he saw us under his reign,
Speaker 1: and he could be violent and angry towards and he
Speaker 1: would blow up really quickly and really easily and be
Speaker 1: very violent. The three women together hatched a plan to
Speaker 1: escape Fred. They had had enough and they didn't want
Speaker 1: to be part of this anymore. They are. Rena actually
Speaker 1: called in an old boyfriend of hers to help get
Speaker 1: the mount while Fred was at work one day. I
Speaker 1: think it was Feathers mcral exactly.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to explain anything if you.
Speaker 1: Guys haven't listened to all the other episodes.
Speaker 2: One of the greatest criminals all times.
Speaker 1: You never really had much context to bring him up.
Speaker 2: I know, it's never come up in a natural way.
Speaker 1: So they made pre arranged time to have him come in,
Speaker 1: not feathers, this man come in and help them kind
Speaker 1: of pack up and leave while Fred was at work.
Speaker 2: Do you look like a penguin?
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I didn't look up photos, but if
Speaker 1: you want to afterwards we can. It was a chicken
Speaker 1: he was meant to look No, he was a penguin.
Speaker 1: He was meant to look like a chitch. He got
Speaker 1: me again. At the pre arranged time, Fred unexpectedly came
Speaker 1: home and found them leaving. He was never home at
Speaker 1: this time, and both Rena and Isa noted that Anne
Speaker 1: didn't seem that surprised, and she was very calm at
Speaker 1: Fred's arrival. She stayed calm while Fred was obviously blowing
Speaker 1: up and tried to placate him. She said she would
Speaker 1: stay with him and the children if Fred was saying
Speaker 1: you're not taking my children anywhere, and was kind of saying,
Speaker 1: it's okay, I'll keep him calm. You guys go, we'll
Speaker 1: work this out later. So Rena and Issa left. They
Speaker 1: went back to Glasgow and left the two little girls
Speaker 1: with their violent and abusive father and this young border
Speaker 1: slash nanny and McFall. It wasn't until the women were
Speaker 1: back in Scotland, it was revealed what had gone on
Speaker 1: and Fred had been having an affair and told her
Speaker 1: that's why she wasn't surprised whinning him home, because she'd
Speaker 1: actually tipped him off, wanting them to go so they
Speaker 1: couldn't take the children and she could stay with him.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: And told her friends and family violetters that she'd become
Speaker 1: infatuated with Fred and believed that living in England with
Speaker 1: him would set her up for a good life, and
Speaker 1: she was trying to encourage him to divorce Rena and
Speaker 1: marry her.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Over the coming couple of years, Rena was coming back
Speaker 1: and forth to see her children and try to take
Speaker 1: them back into her care, while also trying to remain
Speaker 1: kind of safe from Fred as well.
Speaker 2: Sure she was terrified of him.
Speaker 1: Fred was placing them in the care of social services
Speaker 1: on and off, so that's when she would come back.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say that if they in social services care
Speaker 1: on their mother, I'll take them back, but they continued,
Speaker 1: I haven't gone into this here, but Reena and Fred
Speaker 1: continued on and off very toxic, very tumultuous relationship over
Speaker 1: this time as well. Whether it was you know, manipulation
Speaker 1: about being with the children, whether it was you know,
Speaker 1: parts of the jealousy of not wanting and to be
Speaker 1: with him or just wanting to keep the family together.
Speaker 1: But they were they.
Speaker 2: Were a little wit and stayed back and yeah wow yeah.
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty seven, and fell pregnant with Fred's baby,
Speaker 1: but it seemed he was none too pleased about this
Speaker 1: by the time she was almost full term. When she
Speaker 1: was eight months pregnant, and left the home one day
Speaker 1: and Fred never saw her again.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Over the next eighteen months, Fred spiraled downwards, which is
Speaker 1: pretty low from where he do any being. He was
Speaker 1: arrested multiple times for thefts, He lost his job as
Speaker 1: a driver. He put his kids back in the care
Speaker 1: of social services. But Fred's luck was about to change.
Speaker 1: After being a single dad kind of in and out
Speaker 1: of social service care for about eighteen months, he set
Speaker 1: his sights on a woman named Rosemary Lets or a
Speaker 1: girl I should say she was fifteen Fredan Fred at
Speaker 1: this time was twenty seven.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: He set his sights on a woman named Rosemary Lets
Speaker 1: or a girl I should say she was fifteen Fred
Speaker 1: Fred at this time was twenty seven.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: They met waiting for a bus. Rose initially said she
Speaker 1: was repulsed by Fred. He was dirty, unkempt, and creepy.
Speaker 1: Fred didn't let up. He showered her with attention and adoration,
Speaker 1: and this soon became quite flattering to the young Rosemary.
Speaker 2: Letts stayed in touch after meeting at a.
Speaker 1: Bus the same bus every day on the same okay,
Speaker 1: so met her at the bus so this first day,
Speaker 1: became infatuated with her. Kept going back to the same
Speaker 1: bus stop and they were getting the same bus.
Speaker 2: This is called a meat fowl, a.
Speaker 1: Meat foul exact, that's good fowl, like chicken, like I
Speaker 1: f you w l like feathers. He would like go
Speaker 1: to He found out where she worked and would go
Speaker 1: to the cafe and bring her gifts and flowers and
Speaker 1: was really trying to woo her, and it worked. The
Speaker 1: two started a relationship within weeks.
Speaker 2: After being repulsed by someone. That is such a wild turnaround.
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, I've missed a little paragraph here. Fred found
Speaker 1: her out that Rose hadn't ever had a boyfriend, but
Speaker 1: was quite promiscuous, and he really liked this.
Speaker 2: He liked that Rose was promiscuous.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, he also very much played up the sob
Speaker 1: story about being the single father to two little girls
Speaker 1: having been abandoned by their mother.
Speaker 2: Also like you might not know this information.
Speaker 1: But I know everything. I mean, you know that about me.
Speaker 2: If Rena has left of our own volition and everything.
Speaker 2: There was no obviously, because she was scared of him.
Speaker 2: There was no like court thing where it was like
Speaker 2: you have custody blah blah blah, because that the guy
Speaker 2: usually have the kids.
Speaker 1: Is that the I mean, I know that to be
Speaker 1: a generalization, but typically true these days. However, it wasn't
Speaker 1: so much so then. But that aside, that wasn't the
Speaker 1: case here because remember I they were like in kind
Speaker 1: of an on again, off again relationship. Like it wasn't.
Speaker 1: She wasn't saying I'm terrified you and I'm out for good.
Speaker 1: I want the kids back. Yep, there was. I don't
Speaker 1: know the details about if she ever tried to fight
Speaker 1: for custody or anything like that in the early days,
Speaker 1: or if she was trying to get them at dealer
Speaker 1: or she was just trying to argue with him for custody. Sure, okay,
Speaker 1: but no, it wasn't that they were you know, there
Speaker 1: was and there were any court orders. They weren't legally
Speaker 1: separated or anything. This sob story and the adoration and
Speaker 1: wooing and pursuing work. The two started a relationship, and
Speaker 1: within weeks Rose quit her job at the bakery to
Speaker 1: become a full time career for Fred's daughters. She noted
Speaker 1: they seemed neglected and she wanted to care for them.
Speaker 1: Fred would provide her with sufficient money to send to
Speaker 1: her family every Friday, so they didn't know she'd quit
Speaker 1: her job.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, and she was already doing that. She was
Speaker 2: already sending money to her family.
Speaker 1: And yeah, bringing money home, bringing money home, so you know,
Speaker 1: she'd get her paycheck every Friday. It was Fred giving her.
Speaker 1: So she'd go to work in invert commas and yeah
Speaker 1: and look after.
Speaker 2: And bakers famously aren't very good accounting because of the Baker's.
Speaker 1: Doesn't, because Baker's doesn't.
Speaker 2: Not a dozen thirteen, is it? Yeah? Why? Because I
Speaker 2: think the baker always wanted to have one for themselves.
Speaker 1: The older twelve for you, one for me.
Speaker 2: Literally, let me let me actually check that, because I
Speaker 2: have that. I made I made that up.
Speaker 1: My very first job was at Baker's Delight and I
Speaker 1: really that maybe the delight is that thirteenth role.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a baker's doesn't. And I'm just looked up images
Speaker 2: lovely bread I'm seeing right now. A baker's doesn't is
Speaker 2: thirteen items one more than a standard dozen twelve. The
Speaker 2: term originated from medieval English law that penalized bakers for
Speaker 2: selling underweight loads of bread. To avoid penalties, bakers would
Speaker 2: add an extra loaf to every dozen to ensure they
Speaker 2: met the legal weight requirement.
Speaker 1: I'm going to just make the rolls bigger.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure about that, but yeah, but so
Speaker 2: they're not very good. That was my joke anyway, It
Speaker 2: doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1: It was good.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: It was a good joke. I'm edited here and I'll
Speaker 1: go like this, of course, because of thirteen thirteen you're
Speaker 1: very good. You're very good, all right. A bit of
Speaker 1: background on Rosemary Pauline West. She was born in rural
Speaker 1: England in nineteen fifty three to parents Bill and Daisy.
Speaker 1: Let's Daisy again again. Well isn't that funny?
Speaker 2: Funny?
Speaker 1: Anyway? She was described as quote remarkably unintelligent dim Her
Speaker 1: brother said she was quote thick as two planks.
Speaker 2: You don't want to hear that from your brother.
Speaker 1: I kind of like love these like English. She was
Speaker 1: also described as very lazy and belligerent. She too, like Fred,
Speaker 1: had a very stunted upbringing. Both academically socially, I've written both,
Speaker 1: and then I've listed three things academically, socially and intellectually.
Speaker 2: You're bloody good as a counter as bloody baker.
Speaker 1: As cameras real real good at real well English, and
Speaker 1: I struggled to.
Speaker 2: Actually think of something that was pooring.
Speaker 1: In hindsight. When people found that out she was with Fred,
Speaker 1: people said that they weren't surprised that she ended up
Speaker 1: with an older man. She always wanted to feel grown
Speaker 1: up and like she could make it in the world
Speaker 1: without her parents and the proople who were calling her laziness,
Speaker 1: thick as two blanks.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and not a loving family. They're calling her that,
Speaker 2: But also like the wildness of her only being fifteen
Speaker 2: years old. I didn't know.
Speaker 1: That fifteen and he was twenty seven. And the thing
Speaker 1: like age differences feel different at different stages of life,
Speaker 1: twenty seven is and fifteen. Anyway, after they had dated
Speaker 1: for a few months, Rose introduced Fred to her family
Speaker 1: and they were, and I want you to guess the
Speaker 1: next word I've used.
Speaker 2: Disgusted. Yes, yeah, it's actually good.
Speaker 1: They forbade her from dating Fred and said they would
Speaker 1: report him to social services if they ever saw him again,
Speaker 1: but she defied her parents' wishes. Well, like, what do
Speaker 1: you not say to a teenage girl? Don't do that.
Speaker 1: They're going to do it even harder.
Speaker 2: Yeap, do it. We love him. She said that reverse
Speaker 2: psychology exactly.
Speaker 1: I thought you were saying that to me. I was like, no,
Speaker 1: don't do it. This bad story, it is okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was yeah, reverse psychologe genie or something. Yes. So
Speaker 1: she defied their wishes and her parents did report him.
Speaker 1: They reported, you report him to social services. He was
Speaker 1: seven and she was fifteen. She was ok under age
Speaker 1: under age relationship, and they also reported rumors, rumors they'd heard,
Speaker 1: all fears they had that she was engaging in sex work.
Speaker 1: Given she was a minor, she was taken into a
Speaker 1: home for troubled teenagers, only allowed home to her parents
Speaker 1: on weekends, and when she was home, she almost always
Speaker 1: went out and visited Fred. As soon as she turned sixteen,
Speaker 1: she left the state run home because she was now
Speaker 1: allowed to do something sixteen and straight into Fred's flat,
Speaker 1: in another sign that this guy was an absolute canch.
Speaker 1: Fred was actually in prison at the time of her
Speaker 1: sixteenth birthday and her release from the girl's home. He
Speaker 1: was serving thirty days for theft, so when he got out,
Speaker 1: he went and picked up Charmaine and Anne Marie, who
Speaker 1: had been placed in social services while he was in prison,
Speaker 1: and took the baby girl's home to his new girlfriend.
Speaker 1: In one last ditch attempt to get his daughter away
Speaker 1: from Fred, Bill Let's had her examined by a police
Speaker 1: surgeon and it was discovered she was pregnant. No she
Speaker 1: was again placed into care, but after a month it
Speaker 1: was agreed that she could leave under the street understanding
Speaker 1: she would terminate the pregnancy and return to her family.
Speaker 2: Who made that decision, I.
Speaker 1: Don't really understand how you can get somebody not examined
Speaker 1: without there Maybe it was something to do with like
Speaker 1: between sixteen and eighteen. Maybe at sixteen you are legally
Speaker 1: allowed to kind of go eversewhear, but until eighteen you're
Speaker 1: still under the legal guardianship of your parents.
Speaker 2: Perhaps different autonomy for that sort of yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So she agreed to that she would terminate the
Speaker 1: pregnancy and return her to her family. She did neither.
Speaker 1: Her defiance this time resulted in her father forbidding her
Speaker 1: from ever stepping foot back into the family home. Wow,
Speaker 1: he had tried really hard to protect her, to help her,
Speaker 1: she had defied him so severely, he said, in this case,
Speaker 1: we never want to see you again. You've made a choice.
Speaker 2: That's enormousn't it. Did you know what their family was
Speaker 2: like in terms of like, you know, even even socio
Speaker 2: can like, were they similar to Fred?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: They were, Yeah, right.
Speaker 1: I believe I didn't go heaps into yeah, into either
Speaker 1: of their upbringings because there's so freaking much to go,
Speaker 1: but they both were low kind of intellectual, like low IQ,
Speaker 1: low socioeconomic. I think that Fred was kind of lower socioecono.
Speaker 1: His family was lower socio economic.
Speaker 2: But it's hard because it's just like, you know, if
Speaker 2: they were this poor family that were like struggling as
Speaker 2: it was, and then they're trying to get their daughter away,
Speaker 2: and they're trying to do all this to make that decision,
Speaker 2: would be would be enormous.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems they were a lot kind of closer
Speaker 1: and more a more family than Fred's was. If I'm
Speaker 1: wrong on that, I do apologize. They didn't go deep
Speaker 1: into her background upbringing.
Speaker 2: The documentary on this on Netflix. Isn't that yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah is just watch that but don't know that, but
Speaker 2: also like there are very descriptive details in that that are.
Speaker 1: That's why I've put that at the end.
Speaker 2: Okay, well I didn't even know.
Speaker 1: So they listened this whole thing and they love it,
Speaker 1: and they've really connected and they love us, and they
Speaker 1: tell all their friends and family members to listen to
Speaker 1: this podcast. And at the end, I'm like, if you
Speaker 1: want to know more, guess what.
Speaker 2: Yeah, listen to this thing. Also if you want to
Speaker 2: know more, it is such.
Speaker 1: Don't you don't want to know more? But again, that's
Speaker 1: why she listened to this as they are they're hearing this.
Speaker 1: Love you guys. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. So here
Speaker 1: we have a twenty eight year old Fred, sixteen year
Speaker 1: old Rose, six year old Charmaine, and five year old
Speaker 1: and Marie and another baby on the way.
Speaker 2: Lipping, slipping, slipping, where.
Speaker 1: Living happily ever after?
Speaker 2: That's not true that I hate.
Speaker 1: I'm going to bring back not this is happy story nat.
Speaker 1: In October nineteen seventy, Rose gave birth to another baby
Speaker 1: girl named Heather. Another is her first, but they've got
Speaker 1: charm as well, named.
Speaker 2: Heather bring for Baker's three.
Speaker 1: Yeah, two months later, so two months after baby head,
Speaker 1: No it doesn't. I think a Baker's too were going on.
Speaker 1: I liked it though. Two months after Heather was born,
Speaker 1: Fred was imprisoned for six and a half months four
Speaker 1: theft so he was known. Oh yes, yeah, And there
Speaker 1: were many incidences of a lot of petty theft as
Speaker 1: kind of his go to violence, fights and things.
Speaker 2: That's the thing you don't always like. I mean to
Speaker 2: to uncover this later. You don't link those.
Speaker 1: Oh, there was a lot that was not linked. So
Speaker 1: Rose was left looking after all three girls on her
Speaker 1: own as a teenager. Charmaine and Anna Marie were told
Speaker 1: to refer to Rose as their mother. Rose didn't like
Speaker 1: being in charge of these three baby girl or two
Speaker 1: little girls and one baby on her own. The older
Speaker 1: girls were frequently subjected to criticism, beatings, and other forms
Speaker 1: of punishment under Rose's care. As soon as she had
Speaker 1: her own biological baby, Heather, she just had an absolute
Speaker 1: disdain for these two other.
Speaker 2: Girls so loved Heather, but yes, yep okay.
Speaker 1: Ana Marie was generally submissive and prone to display more emotion.
Speaker 1: She was the one that was younger. She would get
Speaker 1: upset and kind of you know, say sorry, what do
Speaker 1: you want me to do? While Charmaine, the eldest, was
Speaker 1: very stoic. She rarely cried and she yelled back, which
Speaker 1: infuriated Rose more. She would talk to Anna Marie of
Speaker 1: her belief that her mummy will come and save me,
Speaker 1: and often antagonized Rose. When Rose was yelling at her
Speaker 1: and berating her, she would say things like, my real
Speaker 1: mummy wouldn't swear or shout at us. When Rose was
Speaker 1: doing just that. A friend of Charmaine's called going to
Speaker 1: the house one day unannounced, walking in to find Charmaine naked,
Speaker 1: standing on a chair with a gag in her mouth
Speaker 1: and her hands bound with a leather strap. As Rose
Speaker 1: stood next to her with a wooden spoon. Charmaine stood
Speaker 1: silent and uncrying. That's just one example of something that
Speaker 1: was sin. In June nineteen seventy one, just weeks before
Speaker 1: Fred's release from prison, Rose took the girls to go
Speaker 1: and visit him. And this was the last time Fred
Speaker 1: would see his firstborn daughter, Charmain, not biological daughter, but
Speaker 1: his first daughter before his release on June twenty four.
Speaker 1: Charmaine did, in fact finally get taken back by her mother, Rena.
Speaker 2: I was just about to ask if Rena kept coming back.
Speaker 1: Yes, Serena kept coming back, And while Fred was in prison,
Speaker 1: Rose said she's gone with Rena. Rose, Fred, nor her
Speaker 1: school friends or any neighbors ever saw Charmaine again.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: The same friend who saw her on the chair that
Speaker 1: day went around, Sorry, went around to see her friend
Speaker 1: Charmaine and was told by Rose quote, she's gone to
Speaker 1: live with her mother, and bloody good riddance. This is
Speaker 1: an eight year old girl. She's talking about awful. When
Speaker 1: her little sister Anna Marie asked why Rena hadn't taken
Speaker 1: her as well, she was told by Rose she wouldn't
Speaker 1: want you or the wrong color. Now, Charmaine was the
Speaker 1: one who was actually half a Kistani, but she was
Speaker 1: insinuating you're a different color to your sister, So she's
Speaker 1: chosen your sister, right, Okay, So life went on now
Speaker 1: as a family of four upon Fred. Upon Fred's release
Speaker 1: from prison in January nineteen seventy two, Fred and Rose married.
Speaker 1: He was actually still legally married to Rena, but he
Speaker 1: just lied on the marriage certificate, which you know something
Speaker 1: I guess you can do. It's not a few months
Speaker 1: later Rose felt pregnant again. The family moved to what
Speaker 1: would become their more permanent, bigger home at twenty five
Speaker 1: Cromwell Street, Gloucester. Might be, unfortunately an address that is
Speaker 1: etched in infamy. They initially rented this house before going
Speaker 1: on to buy it from the council for seven thousand pounds.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, it was.
Speaker 1: I mean, I suppose what we would call here or
Speaker 1: would call now Commission housing, and it was an agreement.
Speaker 1: So to facilitate the sale of the house, they bought
Speaker 1: it from council, but they agreed to turn the upper
Speaker 1: two it was a three story home, like a very
Speaker 1: tall skinny you know those ones you see, a tall
Speaker 1: skinny home. The top two stories were turned into bedsits
Speaker 1: so they could house lodgers and borders and that would
Speaker 1: supplement the household.
Speaker 2: Income that money would go.
Speaker 1: I don't really understand how it was they Fred bought
Speaker 1: the home, but to facilitate the sale agreed to some
Speaker 1: sort of yeah, so they would have borders and lodgers
Speaker 1: living upstairs while the family lived downstairs with access through
Speaker 1: that garden. In June nineteen seventy two, Rose gave birth
Speaker 1: to another baby, girl named May June. It's spelled Mae,
Speaker 1: but yes, her name is May June.
Speaker 2: June July. Yep. The sister's just a good name.
Speaker 1: It's just a good just a good name. It's giving Northwest,
Speaker 1: it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Almost immediately after giving birth, Rose returned to sex work
Speaker 1: to make money on Fred's insistence, or not so much
Speaker 1: insistence but encouragement, and she regularly engaged in casual sex
Speaker 1: with male and female lodgers they had living at twenty
Speaker 1: five Cromwell Street, not always for money, but just for
Speaker 1: her benefit.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: She was a very sexual person. Fred would also bring
Speaker 1: home people he encountered at work, either to pay Rose
Speaker 1: for sex or just to engage in sex. Fred often
Speaker 1: bragged that it didn't matter how many people Rose slept with,
Speaker 1: he was the only one that could truly satisfy her
Speaker 1: lovely Sure, babe, that's what they all say. Rose would
Speaker 1: beat and suffocate her sexual partners. She was very into
Speaker 1: dominate trex yeah BDSM Yeah. The brutality and violence in
Speaker 1: her sexual encounters became worse and more violent over time.
Speaker 1: Fred would often join in, and many of the people
Speaker 1: they slept with would describe the encounters as violent. With
Speaker 1: both Fred and Rose enjoying severe dominance, they massed a
Speaker 1: huge amount of bondage equipment. I've written the equipment because
Speaker 1: I didn't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, I almost laughed at myself.
Speaker 1: How dorky that is writing equipment.
Speaker 6: Bondage equipment, side toys, restraining devices, and explicit magazines and
Speaker 6: photographs that they would actually plaster around the house.
Speaker 1: All right, Okay, I mean they had little girls as well.
Speaker 1: The room. Rose would conduct her sex work out of
Speaker 1: contained peapoles for Fred to watch even when he wasn't involved,
Speaker 1: and they had a baby monitor in the room for
Speaker 1: him to listen from other parts of the house. Rose
Speaker 1: had the only key to this room and kept it
Speaker 1: on a necklace she wore at all times. Rose also
Speaker 1: controlled the family's finances. Fred would give her his pay
Speaker 1: packet and she would decide where the money was spent,
Speaker 1: and it was often on home improvements. Now, there was
Speaker 1: one incident in nineteen seventy three that almost landed Fred
Speaker 1: and Rose West in prison, probably for a very long time,
Speaker 1: and hindsight would have should have could sliding doors. There
Speaker 1: was one incident in nineteen seventy three that almost or
Speaker 1: certainly could have landed Fred and Rose West in prison,
Speaker 1: probably for a very long time. Hindsight sliding doors and
Speaker 1: look at that. However, this is what happened a seventeen
Speaker 1: year old Caroline Owens, who was working for them again
Speaker 1: as a nanny casually on and off. They had met
Speaker 1: her while she was hitch hiking and while she was
Speaker 1: in the house nannying, Fred made constant sexual advances to her,
Speaker 1: and after a few months of working with them, she
Speaker 1: decided she no longer enjoyed being there and decided to leave.
Speaker 1: She did so, and under the guise of apologizing to her,
Speaker 1: they lured her to meet with them. They said, let
Speaker 1: us just catch up and apologize for making me feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: They lured her into their car, took her home, They abducted, assaulted,
Speaker 1: and raped her repeatedly. She was able to escape the
Speaker 1: following day after pretending to agree to return to work
Speaker 1: as their nanny, so they tortured her all night and
Speaker 1: said we'd come back and work with us. She said
Speaker 1: yes to get away. Oh god, she escaped the house
Speaker 1: when they left her alone to do the vacuuming. She
Speaker 1: reported the horrific abuse, and Fred and Rose were charged,
Speaker 1: but when it came to trial, a seventeen year old
Speaker 1: Caroline was too traumatized to relive the events exactly and
Speaker 1: face them in court. The couple was fined fifty pounds
Speaker 1: each and allowed to walk.
Speaker 2: Free fifty pounds each. Ah, that's terrified.
Speaker 1: All the sexual charges were dropped because they were witnessed
Speaker 1: testimony only. I think that she had physical bruises, so
Speaker 1: that they were kind of charged with low level physicality
Speaker 1: and fined. And so life went on in the West household.
Speaker 1: So that was nineteen seventy three. By nineteen eighty three,
Speaker 1: Rose had given birth to eight children.
Speaker 2: Sorry, so what what years.
Speaker 1: Is eighty three? So in ten years?
Speaker 2: Ten years? Okay, we're right, Okay, yeah, the one year old, Like.
Speaker 1: I know your mouth's is yeah, okay, octopus, that's eight legs,
Speaker 1: not eight babies.
Speaker 2: Some sort of reference. I wanted to bring up octorpus
Speaker 2: in this episode.
Speaker 1: You've bit there with a we look on your face.
Speaker 1: You've been trying to bring up an octopus. Bring up,
Speaker 1: you heard the word eight?
Speaker 2: Of course? Is it a buzzer? Of course?
Speaker 1: If I really like the idea that maybe octopi can
Speaker 1: have eight babies in a year, and you've unwittingly please
Speaker 1: call in right now. Will wait and tell us where
Speaker 1: a baker's does and octopus babies? Oh Jesus, all right. So,
Speaker 1: by nineteen eighty three, Rose West had given birth to
Speaker 1: eight children, at least three of whom were conceived by
Speaker 1: her clients. Not fair, Fred willingly accepted all of the
Speaker 1: children as his own, telling those with different skin tones
Speaker 1: that his great grandmother had been black. When each of
Speaker 1: the West children reached the age of seven, they were
Speaker 1: assigned numerous daily chores to perform in the house. They
Speaker 1: were very rarely allowed to socialize with anyone outside the home,
Speaker 1: or even socialize outside unless either of their parents were present.
Speaker 1: They had to follow strict guidelines imposed by their parents,
Speaker 1: with severe punishment, which was almost always physical, being the
Speaker 1: penalty for not conforming, not following the household rules we're
Speaker 1: talking about. From seven years old, the children really feared this,
Speaker 1: not just not these threats of violence, but the acts
Speaker 1: of violence that would happen. As well from their parents,
Speaker 1: and the vast majority of the violence was inflicted by Rose,
Speaker 1: occasionally by Fred. The violence was sometimes completely irrational, it
Speaker 1: was sometimes indiscreet, and it was often reported it was
Speaker 1: just inflicted for Rose's gratification. Wasn't so much punishment as
Speaker 1: her wanting to do it. However, she always took great
Speaker 1: care to not mark the children's faces or hands, which
Speaker 1: could of course be seen no matter what they were wearing.
Speaker 2: That's that's so crazy.
Speaker 1: Isn't it disgusting? It's okay, I'm sorry, I just.
Speaker 2: Can you cut that.
Speaker 1: I did that, but with my mouth closed it would
Speaker 1: be quiet, but then I decided to speak.
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry that I spoke.
Speaker 1: I even interrupt myself if that makes you, I interrupt.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's so horrible. I'm so sorry. Okay.
Speaker 1: Two of the West children, Heather so that Heather was
Speaker 1: the eldest to Fred and Rose biologically and the eldest boy, Steven,
Speaker 1: both ran away from home at one point, but each
Speaker 1: returned after sleeping rough for several weeks. They were both
Speaker 1: badly beaten upon their return. Between nineteen seventy two and nineteen.
Speaker 2: Ninety two, nineteen ninety two.
Speaker 1: Yep, so over the twenty years. Over twenty year is
Speaker 1: essentially from when Rose was involved in Fred's life. The
Speaker 1: West children were admitted to emergency thirty one times.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: How many of these thirty one would you think were
Speaker 1: reported to social services?
Speaker 2: Well, I would say all of them should be. Yes, again,
Speaker 2: thirty thirty of them were none.
Speaker 1: Not a single incident the child from this household presenting
Speaker 1: to accident an emergency was ever reported to social services.
Speaker 1: They were all described by the parents as accidents, you know,
Speaker 1: they'd fallen off the monkey bars, they tripped over their
Speaker 1: sister's foot, whatever it may be. Not one was ever
Speaker 1: reported to social.
Speaker 2: The monkey bar is a thing that's is that everywhere?
Speaker 1: Monkey bars are monkey bars everywhere?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Can you see any monkey bars in the room right now?
Speaker 2: No monkey bars and monkey bars Australian or an Australian or.
Speaker 1: Is it everywhere everywhere? But do you mean this is
Speaker 1: the term Australian? Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2: Know monkey bars. Let me have a look up this
Speaker 2: right now. Just monkey bars, I don't think so.
Speaker 1: I think that's just what they're called.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd be interested to know if that's if monkey
Speaker 2: bars are everywhere? Or if they're just kind of what
Speaker 2: do you think.
Speaker 1: It would be called, like a horizontal ladder?
Speaker 2: It's a horizontal That's exactly what it is. So it's
Speaker 2: horizontal ladder.
Speaker 1: So if you don't know what we're talking about, bars,
Speaker 1: are I think they called monkeys?
Speaker 2: Okay, great, please right in. I'd love to know.
Speaker 1: It's kind of It is funny if they're not monkey
Speaker 1: bars and people like what even Fred occasionally became the
Speaker 1: recipient of his wife's violence. On one occasion in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy four, Rose chased after Fred with a carving knife
Speaker 1: in her hand. Fred was unable to slam shut the
Speaker 1: door of the room. Oh sorry, He was able to
Speaker 1: slam shut the door of the room in which he'd run,
Speaker 1: and Rose lunged at him with the knife, but he
Speaker 1: closed the door just in time, and the knife embedded
Speaker 1: itself in the door.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Three of Rose's fingers slid down the blade, almost severing
Speaker 1: them from her hand. She calmly wrapped her hand in
Speaker 1: a tea towel and said, look what you've done, fella.
Speaker 1: You've got to take me to the hospital now. Oh like,
Speaker 1: if he had noted on the door, she would have
Speaker 1: literally plunged the knife into him. That's just one example
Speaker 1: that I've There was also a lot of sexual abuse
Speaker 1: at twenty five Cromwell Street involving the West children. I've
Speaker 1: decided not to say any more than that this story
Speaker 1: is horrific enough, and I don't feel there's anything to
Speaker 1: be gained by talking in detail about any of these
Speaker 1: horrific crimes. In nineteen eighty seven, Heather, who was just
Speaker 1: months shy of her seventeenth birthday, so again the first
Speaker 1: biological daughter to friend rose together Yep left the hunt
Speaker 1: as stated she'd run away before. She was known by
Speaker 1: her classmates and teachers as a serious, light, quiet and
Speaker 1: responsible student, and she did a lot of the caring
Speaker 1: for her younger siblings at home. She spoke a little
Speaker 1: bit to school staff about her difficulties at all, sorry
Speaker 1: about having difficulties at home, but she never went into
Speaker 1: any detail. When she just stopped turning up to school
Speaker 1: just before her seventeenth birthday, friends and school staff were concerned,
Speaker 1: but calls to the home uncovered that she had run
Speaker 1: away after a big fight with her parents, and at
Speaker 1: age seventeen sorry sixteen, she could do so. She had
Speaker 1: run away before and this time she just didn't come home.
Speaker 2: I think in a lot of cases as well. I
Speaker 2: don't know if this is a common thing, but you
Speaker 2: know kids who are abused, kids who faced a lot
Speaker 2: of violence in the home often wouldn't talk about that
Speaker 2: sort of stuff.
Speaker 1: Well, that is permeates this entire story.
Speaker 2: I kind of feel a lot of shame as well.
Speaker 1: I'm sure, of course, her parents did not file a
Speaker 1: missing persons report. Over the coming years, when the kids
Speaker 1: played up, the family would joke, if you don't behave,
Speaker 1: you're going to end up under the patio like your sister.
Speaker 2: Ha.
Speaker 1: Five years after Heather ran away in nineteen ninety two,
Speaker 1: one of the younger West children who was named whose name,
Speaker 1: who is aged thirteen. She was named by media as Louise,
Speaker 1: but because she was under age, this was a pseudonym,
Speaker 1: so you don't actually know what her name was, but
Speaker 1: will call her Louise. She was thirteen and she told
Speaker 1: a friend one day she was being sexually abused at home.
Speaker 1: This friend told her that she should tell some teachers.
Speaker 2: Wow, she did, and.
Speaker 1: The school notified social services and police, who interviewed Louise
Speaker 1: without her parents' knowledge, and she confirmed and reiterated the
Speaker 1: allegations opened a formal investigation. Police searched the West household
Speaker 1: on the pretext of searching for stolen property, so they said,
Speaker 1: especially when he was so known for. Of course, in
Speaker 1: the house they found numerous objects of sexual paraphernalia, including
Speaker 1: ninety nine pornographic videos of both homemade and commercial nature.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: The children were removed from the home and both parents
Speaker 1: were arrested on child cruelty charges. The children gave statements
Speaker 1: of years of physical and sexual abuse, and all in
Speaker 1: each of their stories were consistent. While these crimes were
Speaker 1: being uninvestigated, something else came up. One of the children
Speaker 1: was unaccounted for. Police discovered that Heather running away in
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven was never reported to them. Police found
Speaker 1: this odd, to say the the children all told police
Speaker 1: that Heather had gone away to work at a camp,
Speaker 1: not that she'd run away, as the school and other
Speaker 1: adults around the neighborhood who had acquired had been told.
Speaker 1: When Fred and Rose were asked about Heather's departure from
Speaker 1: the home, their stories were inconsistent, vague, and sometimes contradictory.
Speaker 1: Police checked employment records, benefit records, passport activities, school and
Speaker 1: medical records and found no trace of Heather at all
Speaker 1: after nineteen eighty seven. There was not a single sign
Speaker 1: she was alive. While they were looking into this, the
Speaker 1: cases against both parents on the cruelty charges fell apart
Speaker 1: because the kids did not want to testify in court.
Speaker 1: Anna Marie, who was the eldest of the children, because
Speaker 1: Charmaine was no longer living with them, she formally withdrew
Speaker 1: her complaints and breast a desire to return home, noting
Speaker 1: the misery of her younger siblings and the fear of
Speaker 1: Rose's retaliation.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: The younger children who were under sixteen remained in foster care,
Speaker 1: but Fred and Rose were allowed to return to twenty
Speaker 1: five Cromwell Street, as were their children who were over sixteen.
Speaker 1: The younger children were also allowed supervise visits at the house,
Speaker 1: but police were not going to let the mystery of
Speaker 1: Heather's whereabouts go unsolved. In February nineteen ninety four, two
Speaker 1: years after authorities first became aware of Fred and Rose
Speaker 1: abusing their children, thanks to Louise's report, police got a
Speaker 1: warrant to search twenty five Cromwell Street under the suspicion
Speaker 1: of the death of Heather West.
Speaker 2: When do you think about it, as Wollock, so much
Speaker 2: time has passed since he was committing thefts, and you know,
Speaker 2: like there was so much that it happened in that time.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of this story is a lot argued
Speaker 1: about them very much falling through the cracks, very much.
Speaker 1: This was a worrying couple for many, many, many reasons.
Speaker 1: And yeah, they really didn't fall through the cracks. Due
Speaker 1: to the children's reports of the family Invertedcoma's joke that
Speaker 1: Heather was under the patio. This is where police first
Speaker 1: brought in.
Speaker 2: Like ground, I mean ground.
Speaker 1: I know all about forklifts and stuff, but some kind
Speaker 1: of ground trading, well not even quite some kind of
Speaker 1: machinery that like, because the patio is concrete. They kind
Speaker 1: of did something and they found that there was disturbed
Speaker 1: soil under the concrete patio. The patio had been laid
Speaker 1: by Fred in nineteen eighty seven. Do you remember what
Speaker 1: your Heather went ran away?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Okay, So, when asked what they might find under the
Speaker 1: patio if they were to excavate, Fred confessed to killing
Speaker 1: Heather in an act of manslaughter. He said during a
Speaker 1: fight they'd had He had gone into a fit of
Speaker 1: rage and strangled and accidentally killed his daughter.
Speaker 2: Now's that means because accidental? Oh? Yes, right.
Speaker 1: He had cut up her body with a large knife
Speaker 1: and stored her remains in a dust bin as he
Speaker 1: waited for an opportunity to dig her grave. This is
Speaker 1: what he told Pa. He was insistent Rose had no
Speaker 1: idea that it had happened at all. When it happened,
Speaker 1: he said, she was preoccupied with a client upstairs. He
Speaker 1: told Rose she had run away, which she had always believed.
Speaker 1: Rose backed up this story with police, saying she had
Speaker 1: given Heather money and actually would receive phone calls from
Speaker 1: Heather over the years, only now discovering that these have
Speaker 1: been faked by Fred to keep up the line. On
Speaker 1: February twenty six, nineteen ninety four, police excavated and ripped
Speaker 1: up the patio and excavated the garden and found the
Speaker 1: dismembered remains of sixteen year old Heather West. Fred had
Speaker 1: told them exactly where to look. He actually accompanied them
Speaker 1: to the house and pointed out the exact location of
Speaker 1: his daughter's body.
Speaker 2: Wow. Was he in custody at this point?
Speaker 1: Yes, so he had. It was February twenty five, that
Speaker 1: they had gone to the house with the warrant and said,
Speaker 1: what might we you know, where's Heather? What might be
Speaker 1: fine if we looked under the patio and he said, okay.
Speaker 2: Phrase that they use, Oh might we find we're fine exactly.
Speaker 1: So then yes, he was brought into custody. He said, yeah,
Speaker 1: look this happened. I strangled her. I buried her in
Speaker 1: the back garden. No one else in the family knew
Speaker 1: about it. He said, I'll take you to the house
Speaker 1: and I'll sherw exactly where her body will be found.
Speaker 1: There were signs that she had been tortured prior to
Speaker 1: her death, and multiple finger bones were missing, which were
Speaker 1: never recovered. I will say now because I won't bring
Speaker 1: it up again later, that all of the bodies, unless
Speaker 1: I think there is one that I'll bring up later
Speaker 1: one that wasn't. But otherwise all of the bodies sorry
Speaker 1: spoiler alert, had been There were signs that they had
Speaker 1: been badly tortured and abused before death. Fred was formally
Speaker 1: charged with his daughter's murder that evening, But this was
Speaker 1: just the beginning. Police had no idea what they were
Speaker 1: about to uncover beyond that while exuming Heather's body, they
Speaker 1: realized they had found three thigh bones. Now, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure if you studied science at all, but humans have two.
Speaker 2: Thigh bones, yes, or beakers?
Speaker 1: Three are bakers?
Speaker 2: Two beakers? Two? Fuck, I haven't got it yet, I'll
Speaker 2: get it.
Speaker 1: One, We'll get it. They asked Fred why they may
Speaker 1: have found three thigh bones, to which he immediately said
Speaker 1: there were two further sets of human remains in his garden.
Speaker 1: He agreed to return to twenty five Cromwell Street to
Speaker 1: reveal the locations of both of those graves. He said
Speaker 1: one was a girl named Shirley Robertson, a former tenant
Speaker 1: who had been heavily pregnant with his child at the
Speaker 1: time of her murder in nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: The other victim he described as being quote Shirley's mate,
Speaker 1: which turned out but he either would not or could
Speaker 1: not elaborate as to her identity beyond that. Both sets
Speaker 1: of remains were discovered on the twenty eighth of February,
Speaker 1: and Fred was charged with both of those murders as well.
Speaker 1: Two days later, having discovered three sets of human remains
Speaker 1: in the garden, a decision was made to thoroughly search
Speaker 1: the entire property. Rose was placed in a safe house
Speaker 1: in a nearby town. Police continued to question Fred for
Speaker 1: up to sixteen hours a day, with questioning turning to
Speaker 1: the truth about the first of his daughters to have
Speaker 1: gone missing from the home. Remember his stepdaughter Charmaine, who
Speaker 1: was eventually taken by her mother Rena and never seen again.
Speaker 1: Police went seeing said one daughter went missing, and actually
Speaker 1: you killed her. Anything you want to tell us about Charmaine.
Speaker 1: After days of intense questioning, on March four, Fred authorized
Speaker 1: his solicitor to pass Belie a note he had written.
Speaker 1: It read in his handwriting, I Frederick West authorized my solicitor,
Speaker 1: Howard Ogden to advise Superintendent Bennett that I wish to
Speaker 1: admit to a further bracket, a prox close bracket nine killings,
Speaker 1: nine expressly Charmain, Rena, Rena, Linda Goff, who we have
Speaker 1: not heard of yet, and this is all quote and
Speaker 1: others to be identified f dot West. Fred calmly explained
Speaker 1: there were a fur so the five bodies buried in
Speaker 1: his cellar, and a six body beneath the ground floor bathroom.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: Most of these victims Fred claimed had been hitchhikers or
Speaker 1: girls who had been lodging with them, who he had
Speaker 1: murdered in the nineteen seventies after picking them up a
Speaker 1: bus stops right. Initially, Fred claimed these victims had been
Speaker 1: killed when they had threatened to inform Rows of his infidelity,
Speaker 1: and that he had transported their bodies to Cromwell Street
Speaker 1: to abuse, dismember, and then bury in shallow graves. So
Speaker 1: he said he abducted them, killed them elsewhere and then
Speaker 1: brought them to twenty five Cromwell Street, known forever as
Speaker 1: the House of Horrors.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 1: The dismemberment, Fred claimed was only to make it easier
Speaker 1: to bury the remains in shallow graves, and he again
Speaker 1: agreed to return with police to Cromwell Street to indicate
Speaker 1: precisely where he'd buried each victim. Right between March five
Speaker 1: and March eight, police found six further bodies of young
Speaker 1: females at twenty five Cromwell Street.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Each victim had been extensively mutilated, and each body bore
Speaker 1: evidence of having been subjected to extreme abuse prior to
Speaker 1: their deathsh God. Each set of remains was missing numerous bones,
Speaker 1: particularly finger bones. When questioned Fred refused to divulge the
Speaker 1: whereabouts of the bones missing from each of the set
Speaker 1: of remains all the reason for their absence. It's been
Speaker 1: speculated he kept them somewhere as trophies, but it's not
Speaker 1: known where they went.
Speaker 2: So it's kind of just kind of he's kind of
Speaker 2: bragging about it in a way and going, this is
Speaker 2: what I did. This is what I did. But he's
Speaker 2: not giving away everything.
Speaker 1: In the documentary, which I refused to tell you about
Speaker 1: until the end of this episode, there is actually vision
Speaker 1: of him with police walking through the backyard. It doesn't
Speaker 1: feel like bragging. I'm not a psychologist. I'm certainly not
Speaker 1: a criminal psychologist. It doesn't feel to me like bragging.
Speaker 5: It is.
Speaker 1: Uh, he's kind of stone cold, No, not even a
Speaker 1: stone cold. He's emotionless. It feels a bit like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm found out now, I've got nothing left. I've got
Speaker 1: nothing to lose in telling them it's just yep, there,
Speaker 1: that's where your phone part. Yep, that's where you'll find.
Speaker 2: That is something to lose. If he's not giving away
Speaker 2: everything like he's not. He's not talking about everything. He's
Speaker 2: not like, oh the fingers are there, like it feels
Speaker 2: like he is holding something back.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's I think more when I'm probably arguing, is
Speaker 1: that is the term bragging. He's not going, you know, well,
Speaker 1: oh my god, you think I only killed Heather. I
Speaker 1: actually heaps more than that. It's not that, it's more,
Speaker 1: and he doesn't give it up really willingly. It reminds
Speaker 1: me a little bit of Dennis nils Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: where they police questioned him and he was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah there was another one actually yeah, yeah, actually no,
Speaker 1: I do remember there's another one. It felt a bit
Speaker 1: more like.
Speaker 2: That, yes, okay, but he was like, you know, Dennis
Speaker 2: Nilsen just went, you know, look at the look in
Speaker 2: the in my in my living room, in the tea
Speaker 2: cups and look in the you know, and was like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, yeah, whatever it was.
Speaker 1: Whereas Fred West remembered where all the bodies were, but
Speaker 1: didn't either didn't remember, didn't give up a lot of
Speaker 1: information about why or how he was. He was holding
Speaker 1: back details, but just said, yeah, there's a body here, Yep,
Speaker 1: there's a body there that's up at this bus stop,
Speaker 1: not giving a lot of detail, but taking those into bodies. Yes,
Speaker 1: Fred continued to cease throughout all of the discoveries that
Speaker 1: his wife, Rose had no knowledge of any of it,
Speaker 1: and perhaps this is why he was kind of just saying, yes,
Speaker 1: don't look into anymore. I'll tell you they're here. Police, however,
Speaker 1: suspected otherwise.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because if you're living in the house with someone
Speaker 2: that's dismembering bodies, that would take time.
Speaker 1: Also, remember Heather ran away and she just kind of
Speaker 1: didn't seem to care, and then it turns out that
Speaker 1: actually Fred had killed her, Like really would a mother
Speaker 1: just never Yeah, there's also all those reports. Even though
Speaker 1: the chargers never went to court, all of the children
Speaker 1: had reported serious abuse by both Fred and Rose.
Speaker 2: And the threat against Rena from yep, yep, from her
Speaker 2: as well, just saying, you know, like she did not
Speaker 2: want her there. Yep.
Speaker 1: Rose West was arrested on the twentieth of April, so
Speaker 1: it's still nineteen ninety four, so it was the twenty
Speaker 1: fifth of February that Fred was first arrested. On the
Speaker 1: twentieth of April. Rose was arrested initially on offenses relating
Speaker 1: to physical and sexual assault of two children in the
Speaker 1: mid nineteen seventies, So that's what they had enough evidence
Speaker 1: to arrest her. The following day, she was a refused
Speaker 1: bail and she was transferred to a prison in the
Speaker 1: maximum security wing. Here, she was questioned more closely about
Speaker 1: all of the murders that Fred had confessed to. On
Speaker 1: April twenty five, she was formally charged with one murder.
Speaker 1: And I will go into each of the victims later.
Speaker 2: Bear with me, trust me, okay, I'll trust you.
Speaker 1: I was up until eleven thirty b finishing story and
Speaker 1: I started work at four thirty eight.
Speaker 2: I don't always say to night to me, but he
Speaker 2: did message me not imagine everything, no silence, I've muted
Speaker 2: this story.
Speaker 1: Aren't you working in five hours? Though?
Speaker 2: When you messed me because I don't get up as
Speaker 2: early as you, and when you message me to say,
Speaker 2: because I'm an idol, you know that?
Speaker 1: And who is it night ol? Who?
Speaker 2: That's something like that? Working on? But yeah, you you
Speaker 2: messaged me very.
Speaker 1: Late last night because I was like, we can record
Speaker 1: these episode tomorrow. I've finished.
Speaker 2: You've been sick, and I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: why are you still up because you're to be at
Speaker 2: work at four?
Speaker 1: Don't you start work at five thirty? And I said no,
Speaker 1: this week.
Speaker 2: I started four thirty and so, yeah, so you finished
Speaker 2: this very late last night because you've been sick for
Speaker 2: the last couple of weeks and I record an episode
Speaker 2: with your Crasy last week as a feeling Christie, your Christie,
Speaker 2: and so you're coming back to record this episode. So
Speaker 2: you've stayed up so late last night to do this.
Speaker 2: So you just got hooked. And really it fell into
Speaker 2: this last night.
Speaker 1: Yes, Slash, I needed to finish it. I'd been working
Speaker 1: on it in little dribs and drabs because it's so like,
Speaker 1: it's such a big story and it's so intense. And
Speaker 1: then I was like, right, I'm recording this. I need
Speaker 1: to get this in finished because I need to get
Speaker 1: this out of my life. I need to fit. I
Speaker 1: need to not be thinking about this heinous couple every day.
Speaker 2: I need to get this out drips and drabs, f y.
Speaker 2: I what bakers call dough that they throw away?
Speaker 1: Oh? Is that says that how bad bakes?
Speaker 5: Does?
Speaker 2: It says that I never knew that.
Speaker 1: You're learning a lot today. It's your favorite treat from
Speaker 1: bakers to light?
Speaker 2: Oh God, I would love a near the Hawaiian pizza
Speaker 2: kind of scroll. Thing is a scroll like the role
Speaker 2: the white making rolls make to your favorite. You might scroll, obviously, cheese,
Speaker 2: am I sorry? Cheesy mite scroll? Oh my god, by's
Speaker 2: so ozzie. Right now for overseas listeners, there is.
Speaker 1: A white bread roll that has cheese and veggiemie. It's
Speaker 1: so good baked into it and it is Did.
Speaker 2: You get lots of staff discounts or you like?
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no, baby dog staff that's what them.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, someone never still hot? My god, now's
Speaker 1: no staff discounts sm Me Peterson at the end of
Speaker 1: each day for health and safety reasons, trips and traps.
Speaker 2: I can tell you you could.
Speaker 1: No longer sell the leftovers the next day. So guess
Speaker 1: what the staff got to take on. Yes, exactly as
Speaker 1: you said, Yes, yeah, exactly. I was very popular in
Speaker 1: my neighborhood. Was working there.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 1: By May nineteen ninety four, Fred and Rose West were
Speaker 1: jointly charged with five counts of murder. Rose simply replied
Speaker 1: I'm innocent upon hearing each charge, a response that proved
Speaker 1: to be a theme throughout each of the forty six
Speaker 1: interviews investigators would hold with Rose prior to her trial.
Speaker 1: Prior to the trial forty six police interviews, she just
Speaker 1: said I'm innocent the whole time. Now we all know
Speaker 1: I'm no good at maths, But how is yours? You
Speaker 1: know that police had exhumed five bodies, and both Fred
Speaker 1: and Rose were charged with five counts of murder. But
Speaker 1: remember Fred's note through this solicitor that said he had
Speaker 1: killed a prox.
Speaker 2: Nine people, So that's not as many as nine.
Speaker 1: Five less five is fewer than nine.
Speaker 2: Well, baby doll, tell me what happened.
Speaker 1: After the first five charges were laid, Fred ended up
Speaker 1: openly confessing to killing his first wife, Rena and his
Speaker 1: stepdaughter Charmaine. He also confessed to knowing the location of
Speaker 1: Anne mcfall's remains. Do you remember that name? It feels
Speaker 1: like eighteen years ago. I first started this the friend
Speaker 1: who stayed with Fred when Rena left back to Scotland.
Speaker 1: Anne McFall stayed, wanted to marry him, and was pregnant
Speaker 1: with his child when she went missing at eight months pregnant.
Speaker 1: Fred ended up confessing to knowing the location of Anne's remains,
Speaker 1: although he always denied killing her and said he thought
Speaker 1: that Rena had. Fred agreed to identify each burial location
Speaker 1: and The remains of these other females, women and girls
Speaker 1: were unearthed between April ten and June seven.
Speaker 2: This kind of reminds me a lot of the Green
Speaker 2: River killer that just went back to these locations and
Speaker 2: just went, oh, there's another one there, there's another one,
Speaker 2: there's another one there.
Speaker 1: Well, there were their bodies that they eximmed from twenty
Speaker 1: five Cromwell Street, and then there were bodies that were
Speaker 1: before they before he lived at twenty five Cromwell Street. Eventually,
Speaker 1: Fred West was formerly charged with twelve murders.
Speaker 2: Wow, and Rose with ten. Oh my god, So.
Speaker 1: Who were these women and girls? This sounds like what
Speaker 1: he is a horrendous sentence to say.
Speaker 2: But I'm going to gonous.
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm going to go through the victims in chronological order,
Speaker 1: which is never something that should be said.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 1: Anne McFall is believed to have been Fred's first victim
Speaker 1: before he ever met Rose. As we've discussed, she was
Speaker 1: a teenager in a relationship with Fred and pregnant when
Speaker 1: she apparently decided to leave him one day in May
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven. She was the friend So nineen sixty seven.
Speaker 2: He's quite young, then, isn't he?
Speaker 1: He was in his twenties.
Speaker 2: Yeah okay, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: Also remember this when this is happening. So all the
Speaker 1: changes were laid in nineteen ninety four.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah wow.
Speaker 1: So yep. She was a friend of Fred and Rina's
Speaker 1: first nanny Issa. Fred never admitted to Ann's murder, however,
Speaker 1: didn't know where her remains were, which seems fishy to meet.
Speaker 1: Her remains and those of her of their unborn baby
Speaker 1: were found in a field at Kempley, which is near
Speaker 1: Fred West's home village where he grew up in the
Speaker 1: place name I famously can pronounce very easily, Heredfordshire.
Speaker 2: I'm just covering allay.
Speaker 1: It's really good. No, but how you said it sounded
Speaker 1: like you were just making a noise both. Charmain West
Speaker 1: was Fred's stepdaughter, the first of his children. Rose hated
Speaker 1: Charmain the whole time she was in the little girl's life.
Speaker 1: Charmaine was last seen on that final visit to Fred
Speaker 1: in prison on June fifteenth, nineteen seventy one. She was
Speaker 1: killed sometime between that date and Fred's release on June
Speaker 1: twenty four. She was killed by Rose alone, who stowed
Speaker 1: her body in the cellar of their home until Fred
Speaker 1: was released from prison. When he got home, he buried
Speaker 1: her body in the yard close to the door of
Speaker 1: the flat they lived in.
Speaker 2: So we know this because of the timings that Fred
Speaker 2: could not have done it, but she had done it
Speaker 2: and had stowed her until Fred was released and the concert.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so when Fred confessed to remember, he ended up
Speaker 1: confessing to Charmain's dead. He said that he had killed her,
Speaker 1: and we will go into this. So he said he
Speaker 1: killed her and where he had buried her, which was
Speaker 1: in the back close to the back door of the
Speaker 1: flat before twenty five Cromwell Street.
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, sure, it's in a different house. So did
Speaker 2: he go to this place where to another house where
Speaker 2: people were now living and pointing out that there were
Speaker 2: bodies there? Oh my god.
Speaker 1: And I haven't written this in here because I thought
Speaker 1: it was too awful, but I'm going to say it
Speaker 1: just because he brought that up. He was insistent that
Speaker 1: he had not dismembered Charmain. Her body, though, was found
Speaker 1: in parts, but this is believed to be from when
Speaker 1: new owners of the house had done developments to the
Speaker 1: house and a new wall that like and kind of
Speaker 1: stumpings that have been put in had actually severed her body.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, Charmaine was eight years old.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Rena, whose name was actually Catherine Costello but went by Rena,
Speaker 1: was Fred's first wife and Charmaine and Anne Marie's mother.
Speaker 1: She was last reported seen alive in August nineteen seventy one.
Speaker 1: Remember it was June nineteen seventy one that Charmaine was killed.
Speaker 1: Rena had been growing extremely anxious about her children's welfare.
Speaker 1: She'd been provided with Fred's address at Midlands Road, which
Speaker 1: is where they were living at the time, and Rena
Speaker 1: sought to confront him, likely to discuss or demand custody
Speaker 1: of her girls. This was the final time Raina was
Speaker 1: seen alive. She's believed to have been murdered by strangulation.
Speaker 1: Her dismembered body was found in a field near Fred's
Speaker 1: first home. She was twenty six years old.
Speaker 2: My god.
Speaker 1: Linda Goff was the couple's first known murder together. That's
Speaker 1: Fred and Rose West. She lived in Gloucester and was
Speaker 1: friendly with a number of lodgers at twenty five Cromwell Street.
Speaker 1: She ended up moving in there herself, leaving a note
Speaker 1: for her parents saying not to worry about her she'd
Speaker 1: found a new flat and she would come home to visit,
Speaker 1: but when she didn't, her parents tracked down the address
Speaker 1: and went to see her, to be told at the
Speaker 1: door by Rose West that Linda had actually moved elsewhere.
Speaker 1: Linda's mother said Rose was wearing Linda's slippers and cardigan
Speaker 1: when she canceered the door. It's understood Linda's death was
Speaker 1: the first sexually motion abated killing by Fred and Rose
Speaker 1: West together. Sometime in January nineteen seventy two, her dismembered
Speaker 1: body was found under the ground floor bathroom of twenty
Speaker 1: five Cromwell Street. She was nineteen. Caroline Cooper had been
Speaker 1: staying at a children's home in Gloucester when she disappeared
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three. She had been given permission by
Speaker 1: the home to spend the weekend with her grandmother on
Speaker 1: November ten, but after boarding a bus, she was never
Speaker 1: seen again. It's understood she was picked up by Fred
Speaker 1: and Rosemary West, assaulted, tortured and killed. Her remains were
Speaker 1: found in the cellar of twenty five Cromwell Street. She
Speaker 1: was fifteen years old. Good Lucy Partington was also killed
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three. She was reported missing by her
Speaker 1: parents after failing to return home after visiting a friend
Speaker 1: on December twenty seven. It's believed it was that day
Speaker 1: she was subducted by Fred and Rose, tortured and murdered.
Speaker 1: Her remains also found in the cellar. She was twenty one.
Speaker 1: Therese Cia Agenthala was a student hitchhiking from South London
Speaker 1: to Ireland when she was abducted in April nineteen seventy four.
Speaker 1: Fred only knew her as the Dutch girl, she was
Speaker 1: in fact Swiss. Her remains were also found under the cellar.
Speaker 1: She was twenty one. Shirley Hubbard was also killed in
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four. She was a foster child and was
Speaker 1: abducted from a bus stop on November fifteenth, as she
Speaker 1: was returning home from work experience. She was reported missing
Speaker 1: when she didn't meet her boyfriend the following day as
Speaker 1: had been planned. Her dismembered body was found under the cellar.
Speaker 1: She was fifteen years old. Juanita Mott had been another
Speaker 1: lodger at twenty five Cromwell Street, but at the time
Speaker 1: of her murder in nineteen seventy five was living with
Speaker 1: a family friend in nearby knew it. It's belief she
Speaker 1: was abducted as she hitch hiked along a highway. Fred
Speaker 1: only remembered her as the girl from Newitt. She was
Speaker 1: eighteen years old. Shirley Robinson was the one Fred had
Speaker 1: first confessed to after his daughter Heather. She had been
Speaker 1: a lodger with the Wests and was known to have
Speaker 1: casual sex with them. At the time of her murder
Speaker 1: in May nineteen seventy eight, she was between six and
Speaker 1: eight months pregnant with Fred's child. It's not believe there
Speaker 1: was any sexual motivation in Shirley's murder, but that her
Speaker 1: pregnancy had threatened the stability of Fred and Rose's relationship.
Speaker 1: Now By saying there was no sexual motivation in this murder,
Speaker 1: insinuates there was the other in the previous and the
Speaker 1: others to come. Shirley and her unburned baby were found
Speaker 1: in the garden of twenty five Cromwell Street. Shirley was
Speaker 1: eighteen years old. Allison Chambers had been placed in Foster
Speaker 1: Kate care at the age of fourteen. She'd had a
Speaker 1: troubled life. She repeatedly absconded from the home and was
Speaker 1: known to be a frequent visitor to twenty five Cromwell Street.
Speaker 1: She was killed in nineteen seventy nine at the house.
Speaker 1: Fred would later claim that Allison died as a result
Speaker 1: of Rose's quote becoming too bloody vicious with her during
Speaker 1: a sexual encounter. Her body was found in the garden.
Speaker 1: She was sixteen. Heather West was the last of Fred
Speaker 1: and Rose's confirmed murder victims. Their daughter killed in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty seven, dismembered and buried in a hole in their
Speaker 1: backyard that was dug by one of her brothers under
Speaker 1: the pretense they would be installing a fish pond. They
Speaker 1: never got a fish pond, and the area the hole
Speaker 1: had been dug was soon covered by a concrete patio
Speaker 1: by Fred. Heather was sixteen years old. The first time
Speaker 1: Fred and Rose West saw each other since Fred's arrest
Speaker 1: in February was when they were both jointly brought to
Speaker 1: court to be formally charged over these twelve murders in June,
Speaker 1: so four months later. Despite Rose having been now charged,
Speaker 1: Fred maintained and insisted he had acted alone, going against
Speaker 1: any and all testimonies and accounts from witnesses and their children,
Speaker 1: He fiercely defended and protected his wife. When they sat
Speaker 1: down in court, seeing each other for the first time
Speaker 1: in four months, Fred leaned towards his wife and gently
Speaker 1: placed her hand upon his hand upon her shoulder. Smiling, Rose,
Speaker 1: having ignored her husband's presence, visibly winced in discomfort. As
Speaker 1: police attempted to lead Fred from the hearing, He resisted
Speaker 1: their efforts and again attempted to move towards Rose, who
Speaker 1: again winced and writhed away from his grasp, not looking
Speaker 1: at him. After this public rejection from his wife, Fred
Speaker 1: became increasingly and noticeably depressed. In prison. He would write
Speaker 1: Rose letters daily, to which he never got a reply.
Speaker 1: He asked his adult children, and by adult they were
Speaker 1: still teenagers, to pass on his messages of love and
Speaker 1: devotion to their mother, to which she never responded. News
Speaker 1: got back to Fred that Rose had assumed the role
Speaker 1: of a grieving mother who had lost a daughter and
Speaker 1: stepdaughter to her husband's hand, and in which she declared
Speaker 1: both her innocence and her hatred of her husband. This
Speaker 1: caused Fred to drop the act. He had been betrayed
Speaker 1: by his wife. His love and so his protection of
Speaker 1: her also fell away. Fred withdrew his early confessions to
Speaker 1: having acted alone in the murders, and instead said his
Speaker 1: wife had had almost total culpability in all of the
Speaker 1: murders to which he had been charged, excluding that of
Speaker 1: Anne mcfull, which he still stated he didn't commit. This
Speaker 1: was also before he knew Rose. He confirmed what police
Speaker 1: knew from forensic evidence that Rose had killed little Shane
Speaker 1: on her own while Fred was in prison. He also
Speaker 1: confirmed this had not been a planned, discussed, nor premeditated act.
Speaker 1: Fred never heard from Rose again. On the first of
Speaker 1: January nineteen ninety five, ten months after he had first
Speaker 1: been arrested for his daughter Heather's murder, Fred hanged himself
Speaker 1: in his prison cell. He left a suicide note which
Speaker 1: read to Rose, West, Steve and May. It's two of
Speaker 1: his children and Rose obviously well, Rose, it's your birthday
Speaker 1: on November twenty nine. You will be forty one and
Speaker 1: still beautiful and still lovely, and I love you. We
Speaker 1: will always be in love. The most wonderful thing in
Speaker 1: my life was when I met you. Our love is
Speaker 1: special to us, So Love, keep your promises to me.
Speaker 1: You know what they are. Where we are put together
Speaker 1: forever and ever is up to you. We loved Heather.
Speaker 1: Both of us. I would love Charmaine to be with
Speaker 1: Heather and Rena. You will always be missus West all
Speaker 1: over the world. That is important to me and to you.
Speaker 1: I haven't got you a present, but all I have
Speaker 1: is my life. I will give it to you, my darling.
Speaker 1: When you are ready come to me. I will be
Speaker 1: waiting for you, my god. Fred West was fifty three
Speaker 1: years old and died alone, heartbroken, in a small, dirty
Speaker 1: prison cell, with his name to be forever tainted and abhored.
Speaker 1: This was far better than he deserved.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was, for some reason trying to protect
Speaker 2: Rose out of everything as well.
Speaker 1: He protected her right up until the.
Speaker 2: Land when he learned that.
Speaker 1: That she was betraying him. I don't know why he
Speaker 1: decided to implicate her then. Maybe it was for some
Speaker 1: religious reason of his own. I don't know what that
Speaker 1: could have been, because it kind of felt like, oh,
Speaker 1: he's gone, well fuck you then than this suicide note.
Speaker 1: He loved her. His suicide note was a letter to her.
Speaker 1: So after his death, Rose West therefore faced trial on
Speaker 1: her own. The prosecution portrayed the Wests as sex obsessed,
Speaker 1: sadistic murderers, terming the bodies discovered at Cromwell Street and
Speaker 1: Midland Road, as secrets more terrible than words can express,
Speaker 1: the last moments on earth. For these victims were as
Speaker 1: objects of the depravity of this woman and her husband.
Speaker 1: The defense argued it was all motivated by Fred, and
Speaker 1: that Rose was unaware of her husband's sadism all his crimes.
Speaker 1: They pointed to the fact that he had committed murders before,
Speaker 1: for he knew Rose. Against the advice of her lawyers,
Speaker 1: Rose took the stand herself. At times she was teary
Speaker 1: and incredibly remorseful. She testified to being herself a victim
Speaker 1: of child abuse and rape who was groomed and coerced
Speaker 1: by an older man into marrying him. However, at other
Speaker 1: times through her testimony, Rose was upbeat, cracking jokes and laughing.
Speaker 1: She gave repeated contrary evidence to multiple other witnesses and
Speaker 1: victims whose accounts were all consistent with each other's and
Speaker 1: Roses were the only ones of a contradictory. The defense
Speaker 1: also tried to discredit witnesses as being motivated by personal
Speaker 1: grudges towards towards Rose, and this always feels like a
Speaker 1: really last ditch attempt by defense to Okay, well else, well,
Speaker 1: hang on, you can't actually believe the witnesses because yeah,
Speaker 1: so they said that there were personal rudges towards Rose,
Speaker 1: that Fred was responsible and the world knew this, but
Speaker 1: he had killed himself, so they wanted to take someone
Speaker 1: down for this and all that they were exploiting, that
Speaker 1: witnesses were exploiting them for financial gain, given the high
Speaker 1: profile of the case.
Speaker 2: So it's just it was this huge news everywhere at
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 1: Huge huge. Can you imagine one day a man is arrested,
Speaker 1: he takes police to his backyard of his home he
Speaker 1: lived with his I think it's ten children, and they
Speaker 1: dig up five bodies in that backyard, and then more
Speaker 1: and more and more appear over time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just keeps omitting to more huge.
Speaker 1: And this was nineteen ninety four, it came out, right,
Speaker 1: So the first murder that we know was in nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty seven, but it was only nineteen ninety four that
Speaker 1: came out, like that's in our.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, lifetime.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was huge news.
Speaker 1: So the defense tried to argue that witnesses that came
Speaker 1: forward and people were selling their stories just to kind
Speaker 1: of be part of this big salacious tabloid head. And
Speaker 1: here as well, where I will bring back up the
Speaker 1: seventeen year old girl called Caroline Owens. Remember she was
Speaker 1: abducted and raped and tortured, and that was the case
Speaker 1: I said could have in a sliding doors moment, landed
Speaker 1: them in prison. I bring her back up now because
Speaker 1: she was one of the witnesses in the case, and
Speaker 1: she did admit to receiving a twenty thousand pound payment
Speaker 1: to tell her story in the media, and this was
Speaker 1: used very much against her and other witnesses. By Rose's defense,
Speaker 1: she had every entitlement and it was her prerogative to
Speaker 1: tell her own story, and she had extreme survivors guilt,
Speaker 1: saying in this story when she spoke to the media,
Speaker 1: I only want to get justice for the girls who
Speaker 1: didn't make it. I feel like it was all.
Speaker 2: My fault, this poor, how horrible girl.
Speaker 1: So I've included that in there to say we've called
Speaker 1: it a sliding doors moment. She has lived with that
Speaker 1: thinking what if I had testified like it is just
Speaker 1: the most awful, awful thought. And this poor girl, who's
Speaker 1: a woman at this point, testified on the stand. She
Speaker 1: went through all of that to make sure Rose West
Speaker 1: was put away and she accepted a payment to tell
Speaker 1: her story and her story only, and that was used
Speaker 1: against her in the core. I swear to God. Defense
Speaker 1: lawyers for people as guilty as this have real a
Speaker 1: lot to answerform. Multiple wit says and victims of the
Speaker 1: couple's assaults testified to Rose being the more aggressive perpetrator
Speaker 1: of the couple. Neighbors described Rose's glee at Charmaine's disappearance
Speaker 1: when she said like good riddance, and her completely casual
Speaker 1: indifference to Heather's disappearance. The final witness to testify was
Speaker 1: a woman named Janet Leech, and you Sammy will remember
Speaker 1: she features heavily in the Netflix documentary or I think
Speaker 1: it's Netflix the documentary, which I will not bring up.
Speaker 1: Janet Leech was Fred's appointed appropriate adult he given his
Speaker 1: low IQ. He was given essentially like a guardian, someone
Speaker 1: to kind of talk to him and act as his representative,
Speaker 1: but not in a legal sense. She was not working
Speaker 1: for the prosecution or the defense. She was a completely
Speaker 1: separate entity who was tasked with talking to him and
Speaker 1: helping him, kind of like.
Speaker 2: A social worker.
Speaker 1: Yes, yep, yep. Through this role, Fred and Janet grew
Speaker 1: quite a close bond, and Fred really grew to trust
Speaker 1: her and treat her as a confidant. She testified to
Speaker 1: the court that prior to his arrest, he and Rose
Speaker 1: had formed a pact whereby if they were ever caught,
Speaker 1: Fred would take full responsibility for all of the murders,
Speaker 1: many of which he had privately described to Janet as
Speaker 1: being quote some of Rose's mistakes.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: After a seven week trial, a jury unanimously found Rosemary
Speaker 1: West guilty of all charges.
Speaker 2: Unanimously, nanimously of all of them, ten charges for her yes.
Speaker 1: Ten murder charges. There were also charges of sexual abuse
Speaker 1: and child just as Charles Mantel described Rose's crimes as
Speaker 1: appalling and depraved and noted strongly that it didn't matter
Speaker 1: whose hand had struck the fatal blow, that the involvement
Speaker 1: in any murders of this magnitude made a person guilty
Speaker 1: of those murders in the strongest degree. So essentially, when
Speaker 1: you know, they couldn't appeal by saying, well, Fred was
Speaker 1: the one who strangled this person, or if she was there,
Speaker 1: she was implicit, which the jury had found, she was
Speaker 1: completely culpable and guilty of murder. He noted that few
Speaker 1: juries in the world would ever face such vital and
Speaker 1: important a task as this one had been owing to
Speaker 1: the sheer horror and complexity of this case now they
Speaker 1: saw and that I cannot understate how much I have
Speaker 1: kept out of this report.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, how much just from the volume available.
Speaker 1: If there were. I actually don't think the documentary even
Speaker 1: went into the true horrors, the true horrors, the sexual abuse,
Speaker 1: the way in which the women were killed, the things
Speaker 1: found with their bodies that suggested that the abuse that
Speaker 1: had gone on. And I mean, I've read and listened
Speaker 1: to things about this that have been put out there
Speaker 1: in the media, and I'm just horrified and disturbed. These
Speaker 1: jury went through seven weeks of all of the evidence
Speaker 1: could be given. Ye aged forty one, Rosemary West was
Speaker 1: sentenced to life in prison, never to be released. She
Speaker 1: has never taken responsibility nor shown remorse for any of
Speaker 1: her crimes. Today she is still in prison, aged seventy one.
Speaker 1: She reportedly suffers health and mobility issues. She can barely
Speaker 1: walk and is housed in a unit in maximum security
Speaker 1: prison for disabled and vulnerable prisoners. That is where she
Speaker 1: will one day die. This, like Fred, is far better
Speaker 1: than she deserves.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: It has long been speculated that Fred, either alone or
Speaker 1: with Rose, committed many more murders. Fred even telling he
Speaker 1: is appropriate adult Janet that he had planned to reveal
Speaker 1: the location of one more body per year for the
Speaker 1: rest of his life, but he inevitably took his own
Speaker 1: life before he revealed anymore.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: We will never know the entire truth, but what we
Speaker 1: do know is that the absolute monsters who are or
Speaker 1: were Fred and Rosemary West will never be able to
Speaker 1: hurt another person again, and that, somehow unbelievably is a
Speaker 1: brief overview of the heinous crimes of I'm going to
Speaker 1: call them because I hope they are and will be
Speaker 1: history's worst married couple.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, thank you for that story. I mean, like
Speaker 2: you know it. It is such an awful, awful case.
Speaker 2: And I remember seeing that documentary on Netflix and going,
Speaker 2: this is awful. And I hadn't heard of these two before,
Speaker 2: and I've brought.
Speaker 1: Them up in numerous epases where we've said, kind of
Speaker 1: in passing we've been talking about like Folly Adure, and
Speaker 1: we've kind of said in passing it, oh, like Fred
Speaker 1: and Rosemary West, and like the House of horrors and
Speaker 1: twenty five Cromwell Streets kind of known. And I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people, especially a lot of you know,
Speaker 1: true crime listeners, people who are you know, I was
Speaker 1: going to see involved in, hopefully not involved in interested in. Yep,
Speaker 1: have heard of Fred and Rosemary West. I think everyone
Speaker 1: has heard of Rosemary West. You're not. Everyone knows they
Speaker 1: killed lots of people, maybe children involved, maybe their children involved,
Speaker 1: not quite sure, but I know there was something about
Speaker 1: they dug up lots of bodies in their backyard. Right,
Speaker 1: the details and the depravity and the years and years
Speaker 1: and decades of abuse and not being found and horror
Speaker 1: that went on in that house and outside of it
Speaker 1: and before it's just as I said, I've known this
Speaker 1: story for ever, but researching it, I don't know. Maybe
Speaker 1: that's what made me sick. Maybe that's why so long
Speaker 1: to write it is just I am very happy to
Speaker 1: leave that story behind. But before we do, what I
Speaker 1: will say is there is discourse around whether Rose was
Speaker 1: in some ways a victim herself. Right, she was fifteen
Speaker 1: when she met the twenty seven year old Fred, and
Speaker 1: I think very much my opinion, I would say undoubtedly
Speaker 1: she was groomed into being with him. However, for two decades.
Speaker 1: There are multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple reports, witness testimonies
Speaker 1: that all corroborate that she was very much an aggressive.
Speaker 1: She definitely killed char Main on her own. That's proven.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, jail at the time exactly.
Speaker 1: That you know, whether he's groomed her into being an aggressor,
Speaker 1: she was one and continued that way for twenty years.
Speaker 1: She never turned around and said, you know, Fred talked
Speaker 1: me into this. Fred groom me. Now I'm out of
Speaker 1: his I'm not under his spell anymore. I can say this.
Speaker 1: She just denied ever having any involvement, which she clearly did.
Speaker 1: I find it very difficult to side, I suppose, I
Speaker 1: don't want to hear side with the discourse or the
Speaker 1: argument that she may have been a victim herself. Maybe
Speaker 1: that's something to say. I think she was a victim
Speaker 1: of being groomed. She was a victim of maybe society
Speaker 1: and the circumstance in her life in ending up with him. However,
Speaker 1: I think when it comes to the murders and the abuse,
Speaker 1: sexual and physical of dozens of people over decades, I
Speaker 1: don't think there is any There is no sympathy.
Speaker 2: From me does Does it remind you a little bit
Speaker 2: of the David and Katherine Bernie.
Speaker 1: No, I mean yes, sorry, yes, obviously that they're a
Speaker 1: married couple, David and Katherine Bernie, I felt.
Speaker 2: More Leniencia, right, Okay.
Speaker 1: That to me felt a bit more like a grooming situation.
Speaker 1: I think the the fact that Fred and Rose West's
Speaker 1: crimes went on for decades, and that there are multiple
Speaker 1: reports that Rose was the more aggressive of the two,
Speaker 1: makes it really hard for me to see any or
Speaker 1: find any Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, but that's God.
Speaker 1: That's coming from a place of extreme and great grateful
Speaker 1: privilege that I've obviously not been in a situation anywhere
Speaker 1: near that, you know, being groomed and being in in
Speaker 1: an upbringing where you may find yourself in that position.
Speaker 1: So I very much, you know, caveat that with coming
Speaker 1: from a place of privilege, but I find it very
Speaker 1: very difficult to find to find myself leaning it all
Speaker 1: towards a place of feeling like she wasn't extremely composed
Speaker 1: and guilty.
Speaker 2: In Yes, I would love to see some sort of
Speaker 2: like you knows, psychiatrist or someone going this is the
Speaker 2: mental state of someone during that time, because those two
Speaker 2: like just monsters, yes, you know, and would be you know,
Speaker 2: you know in terms of the TV show Monsters with
Speaker 2: I Murphy, they would be I would think up there
Speaker 2: in terms of the next oh yeah, they could do
Speaker 2: like you know that Ryan Murphy could do about them,
Speaker 2: because they are such monsters. But I do wonder how
Speaker 2: you do tell that because it is such a fascinating
Speaker 2: thing where even watching the documentary, I was like, what
Speaker 2: is going on? It's so hard to know the dynamic
Speaker 2: of that relationship.
Speaker 1: I think one thing for me is that Rose killing
Speaker 1: Charmain on her own was really early in the peace.
Speaker 1: That was nineteen seventy one, So I've closed the document
Speaker 1: I think nineteen seventy.
Speaker 2: One four or maybe early seventies.
Speaker 1: That was like when they just kind of got together. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I don't Again, I don't know the psychology
Speaker 1: about grooming and everything, but it's not to suggest that,
Speaker 1: you know, there'd been years of where he'd been slowly
Speaker 1: ingratiating her into his you know, sick fantasies and sadism
Speaker 1: and masochism. She killed Charmaine on her own when he
Speaker 1: was in prison. Yeah, when Jamaine was only eight, Like,
Speaker 1: they don't have been together two years, and all of
Speaker 1: the sexually motivated murders came after that. All these sexually
Speaker 1: motivated murders were in the seventies. Like it just yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't feel sorry for that bitch.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, not at all, just not saying that. But
Speaker 2: it's yeah, it is interesting that the conversations.
Speaker 1: With people who go, but she was groomed, you know,
Speaker 1: yeah she did this, but she was groomed. She was
Speaker 1: a victim herself, And I just find it really difficult
Speaker 1: personally to feel that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, what do you think? No, I you know,
Speaker 2: I think being fifteen years old, being like, you know,
Speaker 2: she's at a bus stop, she's had like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: there's something about her. It seems so you know, I
Speaker 2: don't even know what the word is, but not not right,
Speaker 2: like you know, like.
Speaker 1: And then meeting him and saying like calling him revolting
Speaker 1: and disgusting, and.
Speaker 2: Then met him and then all so hating and having
Speaker 2: a hatred for his ex and his life before her,
Speaker 2: and having that violence and that anger, Like you just
Speaker 2: wonder what this life was and what the where that
Speaker 2: stemmed from, because there has to be something other than.
Speaker 1: I think Foliodur plays into it a lot of as well.
Speaker 1: We speaking about that before. Their concept that you know,
Speaker 1: that kind of crazy multiplied. You know, you get two
Speaker 1: people with the same wrong thoughts, bring them together, multiplies
Speaker 1: those thoughts because they're kind of feeding off each other.
Speaker 1: This is a big case of that big case of that.
Speaker 2: Huge story. Thank you, g and thank you for doing
Speaker 2: it whill you're sick as well.
Speaker 1: No no, no, no, no, thank you again. And thank you
Speaker 1: beautiful Joe Chrissy. I just kind of met between Joe
Speaker 1: Christian and Joe Crazy Christie for filling in for me
Speaker 1: when I was away. It's it's been a goddamn yet
Speaker 1: I really home twenty twenty six. No, I hope and believe,
Speaker 1: and I'm putting out into the universe twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1: I'm going to be just so much more well and
Speaker 1: come and prepared and come that's the word I'm looking at.
Speaker 2: It's going to be yeah. And I'm going to be
Speaker 2: doing this podcast over the Christmas break well, We're going
Speaker 2: to keep your company all over the Christmas holidays. We're
Speaker 2: going to have some Christmas themed shows. We have a
Speaker 2: really nice time.
Speaker 1: We're going to keep going because you know what. I
Speaker 1: have been a big podcast fan for many, many years,
Speaker 1: and I work in an industry that does not have
Speaker 1: Christmas off, and I still drive to work every day,
Speaker 1: not Christmas Day, don't you know. I'm not playing my
Speaker 1: little not playing mini violin here but over when a
Speaker 1: lot of other people have. That's funny, Yeah, Christmas break off.
Speaker 1: I'm still driving to work wanting to put on my
Speaker 1: favorite podcast in the morning.
Speaker 2: I'm really annoys.
Speaker 1: Me when they all take breaks. So we've gone, well,
Speaker 1: it annoys us as listeners when our favorite shows aren't
Speaker 1: releasing episodes. So we're going to do it.
Speaker 2: Fault you the first year doing the podcast. We want
Speaker 2: to keep going and want to keep bringing you the stories.
Speaker 1: We just like really want you to be obsessed with
Speaker 1: us if you're still here. This is such a long episode,
Speaker 1: but hey, maybe this is the new rule. If we
Speaker 1: have to take a week off, whether it be for
Speaker 1: sickness or a cruise in the Caribbean, we have to
Speaker 1: come back with like a double lengths to make up
Speaker 1: for it.
Speaker 2: And Joel Christy, I will say so. Joel came into
Speaker 2: the episode. Joel, as he messaged me on his way here, said,
Speaker 2: gaze always run late. So then Joel was like half
Speaker 2: an hour late, had to be at work, which is
Speaker 2: a national.
Speaker 1: Radio, live radio, live radio.
Speaker 2: So Joel's having a having a lovely time after we finished.
Speaker 2: So during the recording, I said to Joel, hey, this
Speaker 2: is my place. I was like, Joel, do you need
Speaker 2: to go? And Joel said, splash more shard, I've got
Speaker 2: ten more minutes, right, So we did. We did the
Speaker 2: rest of the podcast. Then I was like, we haven't
Speaker 2: got a lot of facts here, so I'll come back
Speaker 2: and do it after. I did my own recording after that.
Speaker 2: But I said to Joel after it because he was
Speaker 2: just and then told me amazing stories after that, and
Speaker 2: I said you have to go, and he goes ten
Speaker 2: more minutes, ten more minutes.
Speaker 1: And it was just so how many minutes after he
Speaker 1: initially said ten minutes, it was.
Speaker 2: About forty minutes. And so then Joel goes a splash
Speaker 2: more shardonnay. I love him, And so then was running
Speaker 2: and then looked at the time and went, oh, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna be in so much trouble for like running lap
Speaker 2: to work and everything. I was like, it's fine, it's fine.
Speaker 2: And anyway, and then after it was on the way out,
Speaker 2: so I had to come back. I have to come back.
Speaker 2: I've had so many more stories to tell, So Joel's
Speaker 2: one of those people that has to come back sometime soon.
Speaker 2: We've had amazing responses from Scott Williams aka will Patterson
Speaker 2: and Mith Warhurst as well, so those wonderful I guess
Speaker 2: the best best.
Speaker 1: Oh, you know, the only people in the whole world
Speaker 1: who are better than our guests. Right. Oh, we love you, We.
Speaker 2: Love you, and we'll be back with the mail bag
Speaker 2: section in just air more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, We're gonna make it a short one because you
Speaker 1: guys are like you feel like we've all aged in
Speaker 1: this episode.
Speaker 2: Absolutely apart from Diggs, who is sitting with me right
Speaker 2: now looking so gorgeous.
Speaker 1: It's just a little baby.
Speaker 2: We're back after this. Hey there, everybody. We just had
Speaker 2: a quick break because we needed a break after this
Speaker 2: week's episode.
Speaker 1: I know I've had like a break from the podcast
Speaker 1: from being sick, but I feel like this has made
Speaker 1: me sick in the head this week as well. Don't worry,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to take another break from the podcast.
Speaker 1: I'll do the next couple of episodes. I love you,
Speaker 1: Sammy and I love all of our listeners and I'm
Speaker 1: here for you always. Please read me the letters to well.
Speaker 2: The first one I'm not going to read to you,
Speaker 2: but I'm going to let Brook speak for her. Goddamn
Speaker 2: Sammy and Georgia.
Speaker 1: It's Brook here.
Speaker 5: I've been a long time listener of the podcast, along
Speaker 5: with your two Drunkards and previously Confessions where I first
Speaker 5: got to listen to Sammy and understanding his weekned sense
Speaker 5: of humor. We got to a lot of lockdowns with
Speaker 5: that content and took my friends when we got out
Speaker 5: of all the Melbourne lockdowns to the Comedy Republic to
Speaker 5: see a show.
Speaker 3: Didn't pre warn them of anything. It was best night
Speaker 3: of their lives.
Speaker 1: It was. It was absolutely amazing. Thank you for that.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 5: The other thing that happened was I came home one
Speaker 5: day and looked up at the balcony across from.
Speaker 3: Here and went, it's Missy Diggins.
Speaker 5: So by some pure like fate, Sammy ended up in
Speaker 5: my building.
Speaker 1: I play it cool for quite some time, and who.
Speaker 3: Has absolutely loved comedy in Melbourne, so randomly seeing a
Speaker 3: comedian or personally through the courtyard and just playing a
Speaker 3: cool The other thing I had to play it cool
Speaker 3: with Was that Sam you mentioned on this podcast once
Speaker 3: that he thought that we could have an only murders
Speaker 3: in the building kind of situation with Rewindow and what
Speaker 3: we could probably see each other's last As much as
Speaker 3: I would love to be.
Speaker 5: Part of the podcast, maybe not in that kind of
Speaker 5: being character anything, but I love the sentiment and love
Speaker 5: the pod. Thanks guys for making it.
Speaker 1: God Brook, that is hilarious. So many times on this
Speaker 1: podcast we've spoken about so the listeners know you have
Speaker 1: since moved house, since living in that building that Brook
Speaker 1: is talking about. I assume because you can't see any
Speaker 1: of the balconies from your new place. Oh my god, Sorry,
Speaker 1: did I just docks? You docks all of the buildings
Speaker 1: in Melbourne. You can't say another balcony're from. We'd spoken
Speaker 1: about from your old apartment, how.
Speaker 2: You can see all the values everyone everyone's apartments.
Speaker 1: And that whole time one of your neighbors.
Speaker 2: Knew you and good seeing you do we meet Brookbrook?
Speaker 1: That is amazing.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Also, what is with that building? There are not that
Speaker 1: many parliments in it, but one of your neighbors I
Speaker 1: ran into in the courtyard as well, you was the
Speaker 1: person who gave me my very first job in Tellivision.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's incredible.
Speaker 1: I feel now, Brook, this is isn't it. I feel
Speaker 1: quite good that you moved out of that place. There
Speaker 1: are a bit too many, too many connections windows in
Speaker 1: the building too quickly.
Speaker 2: That is hilarious that you saw Digs and you Digs instantly.
Speaker 2: He would have love that. I'm sure you spoke to him.
Speaker 2: He'd absolutely love that, Brook. But it's so funny as well,
Speaker 2: because I was in the dog park behind like you were,
Speaker 2: our walk Diggs regularly, and someone the other day was like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, Digs stop it. Yeah and recognized Diggs
Speaker 2: and he was very excited to get to know them.
Speaker 1: Sammy. That's super weird, super weird. But you lived there,
Speaker 1: That is amazing.
Speaker 2: Look, I hope we had a conversation in that time
Speaker 2: as well. I hope that we were running towards that
Speaker 2: that huge gate that always broke down so many times.
Speaker 1: And also, you've said famously on this podcast many times
Speaker 1: you now lived two hundred meters from your old play.
Speaker 1: I know you don't even.
Speaker 2: Worry about it. The next one comes from our good
Speaker 2: friend Melanie.
Speaker 7: Hello, Sammy, and Georgia. This is Melanie, and I'm a
Speaker 7: huge fan of the podcast and an even bigger fan
Speaker 7: of the two of you. I love how you tell
Speaker 7: a story. It's like we're all just mates listening in.
Speaker 1: So thank you.
Speaker 7: Also for telling true crime in a way that doesn't
Speaker 7: leave me with that icky, anxious feeling that most other
Speaker 7: crime stories do. But I mean, we love to listen
Speaker 7: to them, don't we, So thank you for that keeping
Speaker 7: me entertained when I'm cleaning, driving, cooking all the things
Speaker 7: I do. I'm in the middle of listening to your
Speaker 7: latest episode with Myth, and so many moments got me
Speaker 7: super excited. So I had to leave a speak pipe
Speaker 7: because I too, am from the same little sun Asia
Speaker 7: bubble and she mentioned she was from road Cliffs, which
Speaker 7: I have no idea about. I'm in Irimpaul more Durer,
Speaker 7: So thanks for putting a little tropical North Victoria on
Speaker 7: the map there. Myth and I have quite a lot
Speaker 7: of mutual friends with you, Georgia, because I too was
Speaker 7: a geo in club menship a few years as a trapeze.
Speaker 1: Artist too, So.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you just bring back some great memories. Drop that
Speaker 7: every now and then, so it feels like a dream
Speaker 7: life now. But now that we've both mentioned to club
Speaker 7: Med a few times in the podcast, maybe they will
Speaker 7: sponsor us to go together on vacation.
Speaker 1: I think it would be so.
Speaker 7: Much fun just putting it out there anyway. Love you
Speaker 7: work guys, and yeah again, thanks for tying such wonderful.
Speaker 2: Entertaining, horrendous stories you cut out there.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Melanie, No, no, no, I can't tell you.
Speaker 2: I can't tell you.
Speaker 1: Anyone who has been even just on a club Med
Speaker 1: holiday in their lives will know. It is like there
Speaker 1: is something about clubmates. As soon as you hear about
Speaker 1: someone else going to club Med, let alone working our
Speaker 1: clement as a geo, there is like I'm obsessed, Melanie.
Speaker 1: Please message me immediately. I need to know where you worked,
Speaker 1: which village you work when I was also artists a
Speaker 1: clubment as well. Oh my god, Melanie, please message me
Speaker 1: who taught.
Speaker 2: You to betist club Med? But like someone just randomly
Speaker 2: there taught you.
Speaker 1: Club Med is a result chain people who don't know,
Speaker 1: and some of the result loatus like the White Lotus,
Speaker 1: Less murder more Circus, which is the name of my memoir.
Speaker 1: Some of the resorts have a flying trapeze as like
Speaker 1: an active can do. So my family used to go
Speaker 1: on club Med holidays growing up, so I learned the
Speaker 1: trapeze over time going on holidays. Then I got a
Speaker 1: job working at the only Australian club Med on Linderman
Speaker 1: Island in Sundays which is no longer there. And I
Speaker 1: was working on the reception there and further learned learned
Speaker 1: more trapeze skills while I was there, and then ended
Speaker 1: up being transferred to the club Med in Malaysia called
Speaker 1: Cheriting Beach as a circus geo, a trapeze instructor, so
Speaker 1: I taught the guests Tropez and I performed circus acts.
Speaker 1: Show stop laughing. I know it sounds like a gag.
Speaker 1: When do I tell people these random little like tidbits
Speaker 1: from my life? Every friend of mine's end to me
Speaker 1: the other day, how old are you?
Speaker 6: Like?
Speaker 1: How why do you have so many careers? Where of
Speaker 1: these come from? Melanie? Please measure me. I'm desperate to
Speaker 1: know which club man he worked down queen and with who?
Speaker 1: Because with whom? Because like, oh my god, oh my god.
Speaker 2: Sorry, well because I remember once in a talent show
Speaker 2: my parents we didn't enter retalent show. But my parents
Speaker 2: once took us to like a on a family vacation,
Speaker 2: I think in Queensland and.
Speaker 1: Tell me you went to lindom And Island. I will
Speaker 1: lose my sho.
Speaker 2: No, but mum drank a bit of linderman beIN sixty five.
Speaker 2: But but yeah, we were like we were. At one
Speaker 2: point I got up with my brother and did Don't
Speaker 2: Blame It on the Sunshine.
Speaker 1: That was one of the club med songs.
Speaker 2: Sorry, was it on the book? Was it? Michael Jackson
Speaker 2: checks and five Jackson five? Yeah, and did that and
Speaker 2: it was just like like a quick like when got
Speaker 2: up like that and then like that and it was
Speaker 2: just like a like a quick little the wiggles, like
Speaker 2: the are you saying that?
Speaker 1: The two of you got up and did.
Speaker 2: That like for a talent show made okay. It wasn't
Speaker 2: like were rehearsed it don't need to.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like the whole like people were on stage
Speaker 1: doing it and you were copying them. No, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I I thought we were going to have a relation
Speaker 1: that you've been on Holiday Club mean before.
Speaker 2: No, we entered a talent show.
Speaker 1: To do that that I need to see footage of yeah.
Speaker 3: How long.
Speaker 2: Oh, we would have been about like twenty twenty one. No, no,
Speaker 2: we would have been. We would have been we would
Speaker 2: have been like I know, like he's a year older
Speaker 2: than me. I reckon like six and seven. Oh god,
Speaker 2: me and my friend Davin we did tap dancing together.
Speaker 2: You've met Davin and we got footage of me and
Speaker 2: him doing tap dancing together to the song My Boy Lollipop,
Speaker 2: and that was the song that went.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry we have to finished the episode here because
Speaker 1: I cannot deal with that real way too.
Speaker 2: Cute recommendations because I've already mentioned this once on the
Speaker 2: podcast before, but why is crackodcast?
Speaker 1: I wanted to bring it up because you recommended it.
Speaker 1: I listened to it, loved I don't know why not.
Speaker 2: Everyone is talking incredible wise Crack absolutely incredible. It's kind
Speaker 2: of like a baby Reindeer esque vibe. Stick with it
Speaker 2: because I think when you first listen to it, you
Speaker 2: don't know how amazing it's going to be, so stick
Speaker 2: with it.
Speaker 1: It's one of those ones, is what I loved about it.
Speaker 1: I kept thinking different things, like I found myself being
Speaker 1: on different sides and thinking it was going to evolved, Oh, I.
Speaker 2: Really like Yeah. And the other one is Bethstead, which
Speaker 2: is really interesting.
Speaker 1: Everyone's talking about it at the moment. I feel like
Speaker 1: we can't really say much about that without giving anything.
Speaker 1: Just listen to it.
Speaker 2: It's, you know, not fascinating.
Speaker 1: It's someone's real life story about something they've gone through
Speaker 1: unwillingly via a podcast. As in, they've lived this because
Speaker 1: of a podcast, and now they've done a podcast about it.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, so yeah, So listen to those two great recommendations. Also,
Speaker 2: g Love has just finished her podcast are Everyone Has
Speaker 2: an X?
Speaker 1: Took a long time. I finished it. I have finished
Speaker 1: the most recent scenes. It will be back. Everyone Has
Speaker 1: an X. There are seven seasons now available, ten episodes
Speaker 1: each season. Every story is a different standalone story, someone's
Speaker 1: story about their ex. Some of them are crime based,
Speaker 1: some of them are about the breakups. Some of them
Speaker 1: are about grief and prison and catfishing. Catfishing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you and I are going to have a great
Speaker 2: week because you and I are going to see Genevieve
Speaker 2: Morris in a play this week. We're also seeing Alan Davies,
Speaker 2: the great British comedian, this Saturday night, which we're very
Speaker 2: excited about.
Speaker 1: It, and I'm putting up my Christmas treet on Sunday morning.
Speaker 2: Now we goddamn Christmas tree. Thank you was always everybody
Speaker 2: for leaving five star reviews, five star ratings. You have
Speaker 2: to do that right now and whatever app you're on,
Speaker 2: the more you do that, the more we can keep
Speaker 2: doing this goddamn podcast. Another way is simply sharing this
Speaker 2: podcast with a friend also writing to me at Sammy
Speaker 2: at just Another company dot com dot au.
Speaker 1: Please let us know if you have listened to this
Speaker 1: entire episode in one sitting without pressing.
Speaker 2: Pause even once even and if you have.
Speaker 1: Please sit us a selfie of your bloodshot eyes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I hope you don't have to work at four
Speaker 1: today tomorrow morning. Oh my god. We love you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to our husky voice for so long.
Speaker 1: Thank you Sammy and Joel for covering for me while
Speaker 1: I was sick. Thank you all for just being like beautiful.
Speaker 1: And thank you for to Jonathan Bailey for existing and
Speaker 1: for one day in the future marrying me. Okay, love you,
Speaker 1: Bye bye,