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Speaker 1: Black cast unite our voices.

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Speaker 2: So if somebody lent me fifty dollars, I don't have

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Speaker 2: to go and say when you give them me that back,

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Speaker 2: They're going to give it in return somehow, whether it's

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Speaker 2: by giving the fifty dollars or by sharing something that's

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Speaker 2: worth it. And that's a natural way of being in

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Speaker 2: our culture. You know, we're not greedy in that sense

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Speaker 2: of you know, we're going to step on everybody to

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Speaker 2: get where we want to go.

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Speaker 1: Black Magic Woman Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the

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Speaker 1: land we have recorded this episode on. We also acknowledge

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Speaker 1: traditional owners of the land where you, the listener of

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Speaker 1: youer are tuning in from. We would like to pay

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Speaker 1: our respects to our elders past and present and acknowledge

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Speaker 1: that this always was Aboriginal land and always will be

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Speaker 1: Aboriginal land.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the Black Magic Woman Podcast with Mandinara Bail.

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Speaker 1: Hey you mob, Welcome back to another episode of the

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Speaker 1: Black Magic Woman Podcast. I am here on the beautiful

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Speaker 1: land of the Orrew peoples on the Cooler Nations, and

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure the woy Wong as well a part

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Speaker 1: of this mob here aka Beautiful Melbourne and it's pretty

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Speaker 1: cold right now. Let me tell you I've been privileged

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Speaker 1: enough to be able to travel around the country and

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Speaker 1: attend different kinter professional development opportunities or leadership conferences or summits.

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Speaker 1: Mainly where there's mob, I see an opportunity to then

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Speaker 1: bring Clint, my deadly producer, and smash out a few episodes.

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Speaker 1: So today I've got a beautiful Auntie that I've had

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Speaker 1: the pleasure of yarning with, having lunch with, and some

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Speaker 1: of our work has crossed over, but more more so,

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Speaker 1: aunt connected to my elders and has been connected to

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Speaker 1: a lot of my family from before I was even

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Speaker 1: thought of. So it's an absolute privilege to have you

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Speaker 1: on the pod cast. Can you share with my listeners

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Speaker 1: and also our viewers on YouTube your name, your mob

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Speaker 1: and a little bit about where you grew up?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so my name is Gennara Goringeren. My mob is

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Speaker 2: Woka Wocka Woolly Woolly clans or Central Queensland.

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Speaker 1: I live in.

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Speaker 2: Canberra, my grandmother and a mother where I came from.

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Speaker 2: I was born out in Longreach, which is western Queensland.

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Speaker 2: Grew up there was a champion swimmer. As a child,

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Speaker 2: loved music, love Sport, went away to boarding school for

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Speaker 2: high school and then off to Teachers College in Brisbane

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Speaker 2: and eventually to Canberra to the public service in the eighties,

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Speaker 2: our late seventies, early eighties, when you know, we had

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Speaker 2: all of those leaders that were really the politicians that

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Speaker 2: just got up and ran with it, Charlie Perkins, all

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Speaker 2: those early people back then, so I kind of worked

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Speaker 2: with them, learnt a lot with them. Tiger was a

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Speaker 2: great friend. And Arnie Maureen Watson, your grandma was. My

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Speaker 2: mother used to always say that two of them grew

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Speaker 2: up on the same riverbank in theatre.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, when they were little.

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Speaker 2: They knew each other out there in theatre because my

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Speaker 2: mum's country is just bit south of there, bit south

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Speaker 2: and a bit east, so they met out there. They

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Speaker 2: grew up together. And I remember when Arnie Maureen was unwell,

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Speaker 2: Mom came down to Brisbane to see her. So you know,

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Speaker 2: we have that long connection. Of course, big connects with Tiger.

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Speaker 2: Always felt like he was my big brother. And the politics,

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Speaker 2: you know, that's always been my thing. Having lived and

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Speaker 2: worked in Camberon, was married to a journalist still, you

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Speaker 2: know husband, and so yeah, my life's been like that.

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Speaker 2: In the last five eight years, I've been doing leadership

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Speaker 2: based on my pH d research aligning First Nations ancient

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Speaker 2: knowledge systems with a theory of sacred leadership higher consciousness thinking.

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Speaker 2: So I come to these summits three times a year

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Speaker 2: to do the pre workshop for the summit for the

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Speaker 2: Leadership Institute, and I love doing it.

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Speaker 1: It's great work. Deadly Well, I just want to big

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Speaker 1: shout out to the Leadership Institute. Dana and Sam have

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Speaker 1: been very kind to let us set up here and

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Speaker 1: to also have access to a lot of the deadly

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Speaker 1: not just the speakers, but the mob that come here

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Speaker 1: from all different parts of the country, from different organizations,

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Speaker 1: different communities. So we get to build these relationships and

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Speaker 1: make these new connections. So that's pretty deadly in terms

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Speaker 1: of your involvement with the Leadership Institute, and I love

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Speaker 1: this sacred leadership. Can you share a little bit about

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Speaker 1: what you do in these pre workshops because we need

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Speaker 1: more mob. More mob should come to these events and

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Speaker 1: they then get the opportunity to participate in some of

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Speaker 1: your work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, Sam contacted me four odd years ago and

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Speaker 2: he said he was looking for somebody who could do

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Speaker 2: these leadership workshops the day prior to the summit, and

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Speaker 2: he couldn't find anybody, and somebody had given him my

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Speaker 2: name and he looked me up on He looked me

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Speaker 2: up on LinkedIn, and he said one of the things

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Speaker 2: that did across him was the combination of the two.

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Speaker 2: And I said to him, you know, I'd done a

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Speaker 2: good eleven years of research about what first nations human

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Speaker 2: development systems look like, family development systems, social and emotional intelligence,

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Speaker 2: cultural intelligence, spiritual intelligence. And I worked in as a

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Speaker 2: senior transformational leadership consultant at this white firm, Saphire, back

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and nine, ten before I went into

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Speaker 2: academia and started to think what would I do for

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Speaker 2: a PhD. And it was the vision of some of

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Speaker 2: the elders I'd been around at the time that made

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Speaker 2: me think about, well, maybe I should write about what

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Speaker 2: this means. And then we'd been using the work of

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Speaker 2: a professor call Robert Keegan from Harvard Harvard, and he'd

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Speaker 2: spent forty odd years doing research around higher levels of

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Speaker 2: consciousness and thinking and came up with this idea that

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Speaker 2: there's levels of thinking that make sacred leaders. And you

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Speaker 2: can start off with egotistical leadership with then socialized, independent, independent,

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Speaker 2: and then sacred, and that people can rise up these

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Speaker 2: levels of leadership according to the way in which they

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Speaker 2: developed their own emotional intelligence.

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Speaker 1: And I aligned it with.

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Speaker 2: Family systems theory, which I'd studied as a therapist. And

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Speaker 2: if you're damaged in a family of origin where there's abuse, addiction,

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Speaker 2: or violence, your level of emotional intelligence and leadership will

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Speaker 2: stay at what we call the egotistical level. It's all

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Speaker 2: about me, because you're still dealing with your own childhood

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Speaker 2: emotional stuff. So in the workshop, we do exercises around

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Speaker 2: what are my disempowering beliefs? What have I learned from

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Speaker 2: my development system that keeps me in the rut of

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Speaker 2: thinking like this? And so to rise up the level

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Speaker 2: of leadership, you have to develop a value system. You

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Speaker 2: have to recover your own emotional intelligence. You have to

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Speaker 2: have a spiritual life, and you have to think about

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Speaker 2: You have to have boundaries, think about your own boundaries,

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Speaker 2: be vulnerable, be independent in your own thinking. Know that

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Speaker 2: you can have your own thoughts differentiated from others. You

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Speaker 2: don't have to follow others like a sheep. You can

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Speaker 2: have your own thoughts and you can live with difference

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Speaker 2: and people. So I did some designs for Indigenous Business Australia.

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Speaker 2: We did an emerging leadership program for three years with

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Speaker 2: fifteen of their middle managers, and so I put into

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Speaker 2: a practical application the study that I'd done for my

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Speaker 2: PhD to prove that it was possible.

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Speaker 1: And what happened was after.

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Speaker 2: A year of that work, I discovered that some of

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Speaker 2: those middle managers were having breakthrough in their emotional intelligence

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Speaker 2: and rising with their level of thinking, and that by

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Speaker 2: the end of those two and a half three years

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Speaker 2: they had changed. Some of them left the organization because

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Speaker 2: they wanted to go elsewhere and it had led them

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Speaker 2: in different directions. Others stayed but they got promoted. So

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Speaker 2: it had quite an amazing effect. So now I know

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Speaker 2: that what I studied and what I designed as workshops

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Speaker 2: and as mentoring coaching.

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Speaker 1: Work actually works.

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Speaker 2: And it's the First Nation's knowledge that really resonates with

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Speaker 2: First Nations people because it's something that's in us and

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Speaker 2: it's something that we do anyway, despite colonization, we still

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Speaker 2: know how to care and share, We still know how

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Speaker 2: to look after each other, We still know how to

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Speaker 2: respect our elders and respect each other, and we know

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Speaker 2: the difference between what's dysfunctional in the white world and

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Speaker 2: what functional based on our own value system. So I

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Speaker 2: utilized that in the workshop so that people can go,

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Speaker 2: oh yeah, my values are this, this and this, And

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Speaker 2: I talk about the foundational laws of our culture that

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Speaker 2: belong with every clan because that was taught to me

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Speaker 2: by these two ango elders. I knew and wrote about

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Speaker 2: the PhD and that binds everybody together. So no matter

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Speaker 2: what you clan, there's always things we do together, like

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Speaker 2: mutual reciprocity.

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Speaker 1: She foundational knowledge there is in that big shout out

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Speaker 1: to beautiful Honey Mayor and Anililla my orders as well,

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Speaker 1: but they be my teachers and in a very professional

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Speaker 1: formal way as well as an informal way, right because

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Speaker 1: they are our aunties, but they're doctor and professors and aunties.

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Speaker 1: Any Mary and any Little talk about this a lot

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Speaker 1: about there's all these different mobs across the country. We're

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Speaker 1: all different people from different countries, have different languages, different laws,

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Speaker 1: different dreaming stories. But there's foundational knowledge. And you mentioned reciprocity, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the law of obligation, the law of reciprocity.

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Speaker 2: Responsibility coming down to like sharing and caring, giving and

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Speaker 2: receiving knowing. You know, I don't have to if somebody

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Speaker 2: lent me fifty dollars, I don't have to go and

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Speaker 2: say when you've give them me that back, they're going

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Speaker 2: to give it in return somehow, whether it's by giving

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Speaker 2: the fifty dollars or by sharing something that's worth it.

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Speaker 2: And that's a natural way of being in our culture.

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Speaker 2: You know, we're not greedy in that sense of you know,

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Speaker 2: we're going to step on everybody to get where we

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Speaker 2: want to go. We acknowledge and respect people that give

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Speaker 2: us a lift up.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And it's fascinating to sit here and listen to

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Speaker 1: someone talk about or unpack our culture at a higher

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Speaker 1: level because most people that I know, and it's no

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Speaker 1: fault of our own, but we struggle to articulate our culture.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of your mob that are listening to

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Speaker 1: this yarn, I'm pretty I'm sure you're nodding your head

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Speaker 1: as well and agreeing with me that we're living our culture.

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Speaker 1: We're not describing it to people. We've never had to

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Speaker 1: describe our culture to anyone else for our whole existence,

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Speaker 1: we've just lived it. So it's only been recent history

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Speaker 1: or more recently that we're in a position now to

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Speaker 1: describe our culture because most people that are doing it

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Speaker 1: have not done a good job. People are writing about

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Speaker 1: us in academia that are non Aboriginal people and they're

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Speaker 1: writing about our culture, our people, or where we come from.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of the literature is actually incorrect. A

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Speaker 1: lot of the it is incorrect. Yes, I read recently.

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Speaker 2: I found something on the internet that these two people,

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Speaker 2: non indigenous writers that are one of the universities where

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Speaker 2: I had worked, had written about a time when I

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Speaker 2: was giving a talk about culture to all the academics

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Speaker 2: at the university, and they had picked it apart and

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Speaker 2: actually said, I'm a liar. I made this up when

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Speaker 2: actually I heard it from my elders, but I'd apparently

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Speaker 2: made up this information because they couldn't prove that what

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Speaker 2: I was saying was the truth. And I'm like, you've

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Speaker 2: got to accept on those Aboriginal terms, and you've got

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Speaker 2: to accept that you learn things orally. And nobody's written

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Speaker 2: it in a book, no, and so they can't see

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Speaker 2: it in a book, and they and they've written this

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Speaker 2: article and I wrote to the publisher and said, excuse me,

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Speaker 2: you need to take that down.

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Speaker 1: This is oral history.

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Speaker 2: I have to dispute what they're saying.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and we have every right to dispute it. But

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Speaker 1: there's for us as as mob. For a lot of

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Speaker 1: the mob that are listening. Annie Lilla has always said

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Speaker 1: this to me is that we operate on Aboriginal terms

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Speaker 1: of reference, and non Aboriginal people are operating you know,

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Speaker 1: white terms of reference or Western terms of reference, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes as black fellows, we were getting drawn over into

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Speaker 1: their terms of reference, and that's usually when we lose

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Speaker 1: the argument. So we have to kind of consolidate what

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Speaker 1: our terms of references for our knowledge base. And Alas said,

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Speaker 1: when you can consolidate what our terms of references, the

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Speaker 1: ground beneath you is rock solid and you feel so

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Speaker 1: confident and so strong. So for people that are coming

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Speaker 1: to the Leadership Institute, especially where we are the Indigenous

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Speaker 1: Leadership Summit, they get to engage with your workshop and

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Speaker 1: your knowledge, your PhD before the workshop and that sets

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Speaker 1: them up for the next two days. I think that's

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Speaker 1: really deadly to start off a.

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Speaker 2: Thing a summit, and it's lived experience, you know, It's

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Speaker 2: not just that I studied something, It's that I started

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Speaker 2: being a managing leader at the age of thirty, so

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Speaker 2: it was lived experience in an organization from then on

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Speaker 2: and now thirty odd years later, I can actually say, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was hard being in this two culture system, but

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Speaker 2: I actually relied on my First Nation's knowledge to enable

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Speaker 2: me to navigate that and you can do that too.

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Speaker 1: I love it, and this is what we need more

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Speaker 1: of bringing our own knowledge in these conversations. It's a

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Speaker 1: leadership summit and where embedding average knowledge or indigenous knowledge

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Speaker 1: within what we do and how we want to try

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Speaker 1: and support other MOB. I see a lot of younger

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Speaker 1: mob here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there is this time pretty deadly, pretty nice.

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Speaker 1: And you was also talking about a new little venture

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Speaker 1: that you're working on four younger people. Yeah around leadership.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I have two other friends, one who's an elder

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Speaker 2: of the name for people from Brewarna and another one

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Speaker 2: from Sydney, Durug Mob and Gilmillroy, and they, as elder women,

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Speaker 2: wanted to do something about how do we show young

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Speaker 2: First Nations women how to just go for it. We

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Speaker 2: do women's business retreats as part of our sort of

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Speaker 2: healing recovery work. We do them, you know, for people

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Speaker 2: around the place and doing it for a long time,

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Speaker 2: and they're like, how do we mentor and help these ones,

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Speaker 2: whether they're women in business in their middle part of

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Speaker 2: their business, or whether they're young ones who want to

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Speaker 2: break out and do something amazing, or whether they're working

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Speaker 2: in a bureaucracy or they want to start their own.

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Speaker 1: Swim line or whatever.

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Speaker 2: We want to encourage them and mentor them with our

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Speaker 2: lived experience, our background, our knowledge, but that real First

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Speaker 2: Nations way of sitting and just listening deeply and allowing

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Speaker 2: people to come up with their ideas and their inspirations

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Speaker 2: and encouraging them to move forward and being like a

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Speaker 2: holding holding the hands underneath them so that they know

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Speaker 2: that they can have that strength to just go for it.

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Speaker 1: I love that. And a lot of our young people

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Speaker 1: want to, you know, take that next step where they

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Speaker 1: want to go and get that deadly job, and some

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Speaker 1: of them don't have the confidence of the self esteem.

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Speaker 1: And that's where we need to as older women and

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Speaker 1: the elder women be there and support them and guy.

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Speaker 2: So we started a First Nations Women's Leadership Company, which

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Speaker 2: we're just starting to get all branded and so on.

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Speaker 1: And the way we'll start. You're working on the we

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Speaker 1: are working.

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Speaker 2: On the website. Now got it done, just got to

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Speaker 2: get it put up. And you know, I just I

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Speaker 2: know that. You know, we were sort of we're in

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Speaker 2: our sixties fifties, so we're the first sort of mob

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Speaker 2: of people after those initial ones like Lowatshire or Donahue

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Speaker 2: and so on, we've come up next. And then we've

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Speaker 2: got all these young ones like I think about my

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Speaker 2: forty two year old daughter. You know, they had to

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Speaker 2: get that confidence to keep going. They might have the degree,

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Speaker 2: but what about working in this world where they are

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Speaker 2: They are treated differently and often discriminated against. So you know,

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Speaker 2: we say, step out, step up. You don't have to

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Speaker 2: be in a system that does that to you, or

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Speaker 2: you can challenge that and speak to it, speak up

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Speaker 2: to it and add it. So that's what we want

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Speaker 2: to do. We'd like to coach and mental them to

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Speaker 2: just move the way you want to move.

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Speaker 1: And for any of our deadly young mob that I

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Speaker 1: listen to this podcast, what would be some I don't know,

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Speaker 1: words of wisdom, some advice that you would share with

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Speaker 1: them if they are working king in an organization, could

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Speaker 1: be in community, could be in government, and they're just

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Speaker 1: not They're not happy, they're not satisfying. What would you

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Speaker 1: say in terms of some encouragement to keep going.

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Speaker 2: Look, it's really good to do some inner work on

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Speaker 2: what are the things that you value, What are the

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Speaker 2: things you know about yourself that are great? And where

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Speaker 2: do you really want to go? Like where are you happy?

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Speaker 2: Where would you be happy? You know, I want to

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Speaker 2: work three days a week. I want to work out something.

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Speaker 2: You know, I want to create something, I want to

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Speaker 2: run something, whatever, do what's great for you and sit

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Speaker 2: out and think about those things that disempower the belief

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Speaker 2: systems you've been told.

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Speaker 1: In the system.

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Speaker 2: You know, you're not good enough for all of those

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Speaker 2: belief systems that hang and pull you back. Get rid

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Speaker 2: of them and transfer them. Reframe them into empowering beliefs.

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Speaker 2: You know that I can do it. I will do

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Speaker 2: it and go and do it because I had to

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Speaker 2: do that for myself. I had to sit down and

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Speaker 2: do you know that reframe of all those things, all

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Speaker 2: those people in the past that said you can't do that,

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Speaker 2: you won't do that, Like, no, actually I'm going to

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Speaker 2: do that. You know, you don't have to keep me

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Speaker 2: down like that. So we live in a system that

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Speaker 2: tends to do that to us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, go for it.

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Speaker 2: Sit down and write down what's magic for you, do

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Speaker 2: a vision board, you know, and create that vision board

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Speaker 2: and then run with it.

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Speaker 1: And I've literally taken on so much just for myself.

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Speaker 1: I'm not one to do a vision board. But my

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Speaker 1: eight year old, Yeah, Tiger Lily always she's like, Mom,

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Speaker 1: we should go and do this, we should go and

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Speaker 1: do that. And I'm thinking, even for a young eight

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Speaker 1: year old who's growing up in anighborhood where majority of

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Speaker 1: her friends and non aboriginal people, she very rarely sees

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Speaker 1: a person of color and sometimes feels that she's not

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Speaker 1: It's not that she's not worthy, but I know that

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Speaker 1: she sometimes questions like why am I the way I am?

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Speaker 1: Or why do I have dark curly hair? Why do

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Speaker 1: I have darker skin? So these belief systems and these patterns. Already,

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Speaker 1: as an eight year old, she's already letting me know, Hey, Mom,

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Speaker 1: why is this happening? So the vision board were talking

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Speaker 1: about doing some arts and craft and I said to her, well,

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Speaker 1: why don't we get this. We'll go to office works

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Speaker 1: and we'll go and get a few different magazines. And

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Speaker 1: I wanted her to start thinking about what makes you happy.

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Speaker 1: You know, she loves tennis. She wants to be the

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Speaker 1: next ash Party. There you go, ash Barty's fair skin.

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Speaker 1: So I keep telling her she's still a Murray girl.

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Speaker 1: So we've been talking a lot about identity lately, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's so important that we have strong black

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Speaker 1: women at these summits that other black women can engage

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Speaker 1: with and learn from with all of your experience.

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Speaker 2: I went into my granddaughter's room the other day. She

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Speaker 2: just turned se and she's got her little vision board

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Speaker 2: sitting up on the glass window, and it's one about

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Speaker 2: you know, what do I do when I feel sad?

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Speaker 2: And then she's got all these things with pictures and

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Speaker 2: drawings that she's done. And actually, every day she sits down,

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Speaker 2: she says, Nana, this is what I want to do

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Speaker 2: when I grow up. And she has not wavered from

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Speaker 2: that thing. She has a vision of what she loves

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Speaker 2: and what she wants to do, and she hasn't waved

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Speaker 2: from it yet. And I think, okay, you know, you

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Speaker 2: might have ten more where you want to do something else,

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Speaker 2: But whatever it is, we are here to help you.

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Speaker 2: We're here to hold you and help you get where

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Speaker 2: you've got to go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but just the fact that these little people are

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Speaker 1: already telling us, you know, the signs of that. Help

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Speaker 1: me understand. Let me navigate this white fellow world, black

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Speaker 1: fellow world? How do I walk in two worlds? And

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Speaker 1: how did I embrace my blackness? So I said to

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Speaker 1: and here I am wearing There's Deadly Mums Come Up shirt?

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Speaker 1: How those I bought this T shirt? I went home

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Speaker 1: with her and she said, where's my T shirt? I said,

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Speaker 1: have we got to get a deadly Daughter's club going

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Speaker 1: T shirt?

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Speaker 2: We've always got sets of those. We've got one that's

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Speaker 2: some aboriginal girl, no deadly Aboriginal girl across the black.

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Speaker 1: And there's one laborage magic.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, black girl magic, black girl magic. So

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Speaker 3: many great ones were Riga's always buying little sets for them,

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Speaker 3: yes to wear, you know, especially in the Natock week

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Speaker 3: or and Riga Willa is very strong at school. You know,

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Speaker 3: she'll go in there and she talks about her identity,

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Speaker 3: she shares it. And the teacher you know, write to

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Speaker 3: me the other day and said, you know, where does

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Speaker 3: Willi's identic cultural identity line come from? And I explained

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Speaker 3: it to her, you know, because they didn't know. But

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Speaker 3: she's very strong about it.

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Speaker 2: You know. She she'll say, they'll say, you know, God

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Speaker 2: made the earth and the stars, and she'll say, no,

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Speaker 2: you're wrong, Biarmi did that.

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Speaker 1: She's hearing our stories and she's talking about her style

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Speaker 1: culture and it's been so deadly. Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: I get to yarn with you and you know, finally

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Speaker 1: get an opportunity to let people know what you've been doing,

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Speaker 1: what you're working on, and can't wait to see you

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Speaker 1: more out there doing what you do. Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much of our young women coming through the ranks and

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Speaker 1: being able to kind of step up and take care

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Speaker 1: of business and not be afraid. Thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: It's lovely to have the generational thread with us. You know.

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Speaker 2: I sit here and I think of Arnie, Maureen and Tiger,

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Speaker 2: you know, and it's all in that story as we talk.

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Speaker 2: It's very beautiful. Thank you for your time. Oh, I

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Speaker 2: love you an love you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, and I know you would have enjoyed this deadly.

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Speaker 1: In the show notes, you'll see what Aunt's been working on.

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Speaker 1: And for the young deadly Black women that are listening,

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Speaker 1: just remember you know where you come from and who

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Speaker 1: you are. That's it. My mum always said, don't ever

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Speaker 1: be shamed about who you are and where you come from,

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Speaker 1: and don't forget your family when you make it, don't

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Speaker 1: forget your mob. On that note, Ipe Avenge, I read

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Speaker 1: this until next time, By for Nat. If you'd like

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Speaker 1: any more info on today's guest, please visit our show

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Speaker 1: notes in the episode description. A big shout out to

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Speaker 1: all you Deadly Mob and allies who continue to listen, watch,

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00:23:18,351 --> 00:23:22,351
Speaker 1: and support our podcast. Your feedback means the world. You

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00:23:22,431 --> 00:23:25,591
Speaker 1: can rate and review the podcast on Apple and Spotify,

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00:23:25,791 --> 00:23:28,671
Speaker 1: or even head to our socials and YouTube channel and

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Speaker 1: drop us a line. We'd love to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: The Black Magic Woman podcast is produced by Clint Curtis.