1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,760 Speaker 1: I never forget what Clay said. 2 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 2: Clay very kindly said the way that he wrote his 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 2: books was to give a bunch of talks, and by 4 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 2: giving a bunch of talks, an argument would begin to 5 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: form in his head. He would write the argument down 6 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 2: and then he would put additional details behind it, and 7 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 2: that was the way that a book would be created. 8 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 3: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 3: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 10 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 3: their day. 11 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 4: I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. 12 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 3: I'm an organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm 13 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 3: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my workday. 14 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 4: My guest today is Scott D. Anthony. 15 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 3: Scott is a global authority on innovation and the former 16 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 3: managing partner of Inosite, the innovation and strategy. 17 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 4: Consulting firm co founded by Clayton Christiansen. 18 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 3: Scott has written several best selling books and writes regularly 19 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 3: for Harvard Business Review. Last year, Scott was awarded the 20 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 3: Thinker's fifty Innovation Award, which recognizes the world's leading thinkers 21 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 3: on innovation. Now I've known Scott for a little while 22 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 3: now because our innovation consultancies are starting to partner up 23 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 3: on some projects, but up until now, I've never had 24 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 3: the chance to quiz Scott about. 25 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 4: How he works. 26 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 3: We cover a lot of different topics in this chat, 27 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 3: such as Scott's go to locations for his own creative 28 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 3: work and what led to him removing seventy percent of 29 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 3: his regular meetings from his diary. Over to Scott to 30 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 3: hear about how he works. 31 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 4: Scott, Welcome to. 32 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: The show, Amantha. Is a true pleasure to be here. 33 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 4: Wonderful. 34 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 3: Now you're the former managing partner at Ino Site, so 35 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 3: you spent six years in that role, which is one 36 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 3: hundred person global innovation and strategy consulting firm founded by 37 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 3: Clayton Christensen. 38 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 4: And you've also written I think it's seven books. Is 39 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 4: that correct? If I lost count? 40 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, seven books is correct. 41 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 3: Wonderful And what I want to start with is I 42 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 3: want to know how you balance maker versus manager time. 43 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 3: And for those that are not familiar with this concept, 44 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 3: this comes from Paul Graham, who's one of the founders 45 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 3: of Why Combinator, and he talks about how the world 46 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 3: runs on manager time, which is typically in half hour 47 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 3: or one hour increments because that's how long meetings go 48 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 3: for and that manager time can get in the way 49 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 3: of make a time, which is typically in increments of 50 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 3: two or three or four hours, where people that are 51 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 3: building things can really kind of get into flow and 52 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 3: get it stuck into focused work. And given like you're 53 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 3: on the one hand you're a manager, but on the 54 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 3: other hand you're a maker, particularly with your writing, how 55 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 3: are you balancing those two worlds in your life. 56 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: It's a great question, Amantha, and something that I sometimes 57 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 2: would struggle with, like I think many people would, but 58 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: at least for me, some of the things that I 59 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 2: try to do to find that balance are Number One, 60 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 2: put in place some pretty fierce boundary conditions for manager time. 61 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 2: So make sure that there are wall on the calendar, 62 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 2: there are areas that are blocked out, that there is 63 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: space to go and do some of the maker activity. 64 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 2: I think that is a really important thing. Number Two, 65 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 2: when you are in one of those spaces where it 66 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 2: is time to be creative, and sometimes for me that's writing, 67 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 2: Sometimes that's putting together PowerPoint presentations because those often are 68 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 2: rough drafts of the things that I hope to write. 69 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: I try to remove myself from temptation which often means 70 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 2: making sure that I'm not in an office or I'm 71 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: in a place where I can't access email because the 72 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: light goes off and you can't help. Butter you're sitting 73 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 2: in an office soon comes and says, hey, do you 74 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 2: have a couple of minutes, So that will sometimes mean 75 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: going to a coffee shop or going to work in 76 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 2: some other quiet location. 77 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: But making sure that temptation isn't there. 78 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: And then the third thing, and the thing that I 79 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 2: think is kind of unexpected, the manager part of my life. 80 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: That is managing the professionals who work in our organization. 81 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: Some of that is doing the day to day of 82 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: being in managing consulting. 83 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 2: Either of those requires often getting on an airplane and 84 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: going somewhere, and the airplane time, if you manage it 85 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 2: with discipline and you use that as a good maker 86 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: block of time for me at least has been tremendously 87 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 2: productive time where I really can sometimes get a good 88 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: two three four hour block to. 89 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: Just disappear in something. So those are at least some 90 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: of the things that have worked for me. 91 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 2: And I guess if I said one other thing, when 92 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: you have truly great people who are working with you, 93 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 2: it makes the manager time a lot easier because you 94 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 2: don't have to do their work because they're really good. 95 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:46,799 Speaker 1: At doing their work. 96 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 2: And I've been very, very fortunate to have great colleagues 97 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 2: who I can just get out of their way and 98 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 2: that makes things really easy. 99 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 3: Sometimes I want to delve into the airplane time because 100 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: that's definitely a common theme that come up in this podcast. 101 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 4: How do you prepare for a flight where. 102 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 3: You want to do, manage that where you want to do, 103 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 3: make a time to get the most out of it. 104 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 2: That's a great question, amanth To me, there's a couple 105 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 2: factors that I think help. Number One, you go into 106 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 2: the airplane time with a defined task that you're working on. 107 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 2: So if I know I've got a big presentation that 108 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 2: I'm giving, and I know that presentation is going to 109 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 2: be more creation than curations, I've got new thinking that 110 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 2: I've got to do in it, I will make sure 111 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 2: that I look for the flight that's coming up and 112 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: essentially mentally block off a piece of time to work 113 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: on that activity. So basically, it's looking at that chunk 114 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 2: of time in my calendar as a real gift to 115 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 2: go and work on that activity. 116 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: Or it might be a book chapter or an article 117 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: or whatever. 118 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 2: The second thing that I'll try to do is to 119 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 2: clear the decks as much as I possibly can going 120 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: into the flight. 121 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: That is, I know there's not. 122 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 2: A pressing deadline for a manager activity that's sitting over 123 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,239 Speaker 2: my head, because if it is sitting over my head, 124 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 2: even if my time allegedly is focused on the maker task, 125 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 2: my brain is going to be buzzing with the more 126 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: manager of focused activity. And then the third and final 127 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 2: thing is this is a little bit of a weird one. 128 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 2: If I know I really do have to be working 129 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: on a creative task, I will consciously choose a flight 130 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: that doesn't have Wi Fi on it, because once your 131 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 2: phone is connected, it's just really hard to help yourself. 132 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 2: And you know, I'm reasonably good at being disciplined and 133 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 2: just turning the phone off and all that, But if 134 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 2: you again remove yourself from temptation, you truly have no choice. 135 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 1: And sometimes that's your friend. 136 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 3: Do you set yourself goals of what you want to achieve, 137 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 3: even on flights. 138 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 2: I'm a big list person, so I will go into 139 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 2: when I'm on one of my super long haul trips 140 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 2: and I live in Singapore, I've averaged about eight trips 141 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: in the United States a year over the last six years, 142 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 2: and that is depending on how you go, that's twenty 143 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: to twenty. 144 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: Six hours of travel. I will begin those trips by 145 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: coming up with the task. 146 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: List, and usually I will balance tasks that I know 147 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 2: are going to be longer, more involved task with a 148 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: couple quick wins so that I can have a few 149 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,679 Speaker 2: things that I can easily scratch off the list. Because 150 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: you know, sometimes you'll say I want to come up 151 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: with the first draft of an article, I want to 152 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 2: do major revisions on an article, and you're not going 153 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: to accomplish that because. 154 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes it just doesn't want to get done in that 155 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: time period. 156 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: You don't want to feel deflated then at the end 157 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 2: of the flight, So I make sure that I give 158 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 2: myself a few things that I know I can do 159 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 2: when my brain. 160 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: Just needs a break. 161 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: So at the very least my six item lists will 162 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: get down to three items and. 163 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: I'll feel better at the end of the flight. 164 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 2: But yes, I do very much go in and set 165 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: myself a task list so that I've got a way 166 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 2: to focus my time and attention. And two, I recognize, 167 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: like all humans, I can't work uninterrupted for. 168 00:07:58,200 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: X number of hours. 169 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 2: I will counch managed flights in basically two or three 170 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: hour chunks. I'll do more manager like task for two 171 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: or three hours. I'll watch a movie for two or 172 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 2: three hours. I might sleep for two of those chunks. 173 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: I might eat for a little bit whatever. But I 174 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: am consciously thinking about those cycles to make sure I 175 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: maximize productivity on the trip. 176 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 3: That's really cool, And I'm curious, like, when you're not 177 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 3: in flight and you've got like a normal week in Singapore, 178 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 3: let's say, do you have daily or weekly rituals that 179 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 3: you find just set you up for a successful day 180 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 3: a week. 181 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: So I do definitely have rituals that I follow when 182 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 2: I'm in Singapore, which is I essentially mentally think about 183 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 2: a three shift day. So shift one is when I 184 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 2: wake up, and professionally, at least they've got the personal 185 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 2: cybe where helped to make sure the kids get off 186 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 2: to school and all that. But professionally I will look 187 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 2: at email and triage to see what came in overnight 188 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: from the United States that needs reasonably immediate attention and 189 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 2: what didn't, so I make sure I don't have that 190 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 2: again hanging over my head. 191 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: That Shift one. 192 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 2: Shift two is the normal day in Singapore where you 193 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: might have internal or external meetings. Shift three then is 194 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 2: when the United States wakes up, and there might be 195 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 2: a couple or three hours of phone calls or emails 196 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 2: or whatever just to manage some of the activities in 197 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 2: the United States. So that ritual of thinking about the 198 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 2: three parts of the day and the different things I 199 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: will be accomplishing in each of them just helps me 200 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 2: get mentally prepared for the day. 201 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: And then the second thing in the second. 202 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: Part, in the normal working hours, if again there is 203 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: a maker task that is required, there is the conscious 204 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 2: creation of an open block of time ranging from two 205 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 2: to six hours, and the conscious removal of myself from anywhere. 206 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: We're all be tempted to get back into manager mode. 207 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 2: So you will not find me sitting in my office 208 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 2: working on the tasks. You will find me in a 209 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 2: Starbucks or a Costa Coffee, or remembers locally here in Singapore, 210 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 2: in the American Club. It's got a great place on 211 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: the third floor where I can disappear for a little 212 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 2: bit behind my headphones. Whatever it is, you'll find me 213 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 2: somewhere else doing it. And finally, when I'm in that mode, 214 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 2: I tend to bounce because I know myself. I know 215 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 2: after about ninety minutes, my energy begins to go down. 216 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 2: So I'll go to a Starbucks for ninety minutes, then 217 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 2: the American Club for ninety minutes, and maybe even a 218 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 2: pub for ninety minutes to get a little dose of 219 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 2: creativity from a beer as I start to transition to 220 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: the third phase of the day. So there are clearly 221 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 2: some ritualistic elements to all of those things. 222 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 3: That's very interesting and obviously like a large part of 223 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 3: your make of time is writing. 224 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 4: And I remember reading in one of your. 225 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 3: Books you said that a publisher said to you that 226 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 3: ninety percent of business books that customers purchase I ever read, 227 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 3: which is quite an astounding statistic, but it definitely resonates 228 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 3: what motivates you to write books. 229 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: Well, you know, so ninety percent are never read, but 230 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 2: ten percent are so to those who actually pick up 231 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 2: and read the books and find. 232 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: The books to be useful. 233 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 2: There's that portion, you know, writing allows you to reach 234 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,079 Speaker 2: people that you will never meet, never see, et cetera. 235 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 2: So there certainly is that. For me, A lot of 236 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 2: writing is organizing the thoughts in my brain. Sometimes I 237 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 2: can't figure out how to communicate something until I have 238 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 2: taken the effort to actually write it in reasonably long form. 239 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 2: You know, some things I can do rough drafts of 240 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 2: in presentations and PowerPoint and so on. But sometimes the 241 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 2: discipline of writing is the only way that you can 242 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 2: truly figure out what it is you're trying to say. 243 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 2: And then, finally, when you write something in long form, 244 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 2: you've got lots of snippets that you can then shoot 245 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 2: off in short form. So once you get something in 246 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 2: a longer argument, you can go and create the two 247 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 2: hundred and eighty character tweet or the two thousand word 248 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 2: LinkedIn post, or the three minute video you're going to post, etc. 249 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 2: But until you've done the longer thing, you can't do 250 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 2: the shorter thing. 251 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: So those are some. 252 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 2: Of the reasons why I do it, and I guess 253 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 2: the last thing I'd say I do intrinsically enjoy the process. 254 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,839 Speaker 2: I find writing sometimes frustrating when you get yourself stuck 255 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 2: and you don't know what you're trying to say. But 256 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 2: often it is when I truly find myself in flow, 257 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 2: when I'm just trying to wrestle with an argument and 258 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 2: trying to get the thing to come together on a 259 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: piece of paper or on a screen or whatever. 260 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 3: I think that one of the things that you're particularly 261 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 3: great at is finding unique and really sticky ways to 262 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 3: express ideas, Like I really like your seven Deadly Sins 263 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 3: of Innovation. I think that's a really lovely way of 264 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 3: expressing some of the problems that companies run into with innovation. 265 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 3: And I want to know what's your process for coming 266 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 3: up with these like ideas and frameworks. 267 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 4: I guess what does that look like for you? 268 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: So I would say a couple things about this. 269 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 2: First, I have the great privilege of just getting lots 270 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: of stimuli, and that stimuli comes from being in the 271 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 2: field as a consultant, which means you get to interact 272 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 2: with lots of companies and lots of places. We have 273 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 2: spent some time in Singapore running a venture capital business, 274 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 2: so I've gotten the opportunity to look at lots of 275 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 2: startup companies invest in a few of those companies, both 276 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 2: through the organization known as NSA Ventures as well as 277 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 2: some of my private activities. I've got some incredibly smart 278 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 2: colleagues where you can just bounce lots of ideas off 279 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 2: of I've got four young kids that are a constant 280 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: source of stimuli for me. I like to read a lot, 281 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 2: I get to travel to lots of places, so I 282 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 2: have this barrage of stimuli. 283 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: So that's the first part. 284 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: You just have the stimuli coming at you all the time. 285 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 2: The second part is I do like to experiment when 286 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 2: I'm working on a new idea or I'm trying to 287 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 2: find a way to communicate a complex topic. So when 288 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 2: I'm giving a talk or running a workshop, I will 289 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 2: almost always use these as vehicles to try new things. 290 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: So I will find myself getting ready to do something 291 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 2: and say, Okay, I've been struggling to communicate it. 292 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: What if I do this as opposed to that. 293 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 2: So the speaking engagements in workshops are great ways to 294 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 2: rapidly prototype ideas and get feedback. 295 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: On those ideas. 296 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 2: And then finally, I would say being based out here 297 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: in Singapore has been a great boost to this because 298 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 2: I found myself in many occasions presenting to audiences where 299 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 2: English might not even be the second language, it might 300 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 2: be the third, which means you've got to find a metaphor, 301 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 2: or you have to find a really simplified way to 302 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 2: explain things because if you start talking in traditional English 303 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 2: business language and you talk at a pace like this, 304 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 2: there's no way that any body's going to understand it. 305 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: So it's really forced me to try. 306 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 2: To get to the essence of some of the concepts 307 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: that we try to communicate and try to find different 308 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 2: ways to explain them, and they don't always work. 309 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: You know, the Seven Deadly Sins. 310 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 2: I have found it to be a very helpful way 311 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 2: to explain things. But every once in a while I 312 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 2: explained them in a context and people say, I'm offended 313 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 2: by this. It is a religious metaphor and it doesn't 314 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 2: fit the way I look at. 315 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: The world, and that's okay. 316 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 2: You learn, you say, okay, in this context, I won't 317 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 2: use that or I sometimes, as you know, Namantha, I 318 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 2: will talk about zombies and zombie projects. Some people love it, 319 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 2: other people really don't, and you just have to start 320 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 2: to learn audiences and learn what works and what context. 321 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 3: I particularly love the zombie project concept. We talk about 322 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 3: that a lot with our clients as well, and I 323 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 3: want to know, where can you explain what that idea 324 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 3: is to listeners that are not familiar with it, and 325 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 3: where did that idea come from? Because it's really unique 326 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 3: and it's very interesting. 327 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: Gosh. 328 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: I to the latter part of the question, I actually 329 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: I do not remember the origin story of it, nor 330 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 2: can I claim with great degrees of confidence that I 331 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: was the originator of it. I very likely stole it 332 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 2: from one of our clients. Again, we get the privilege 333 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: to work with really smart people, and sometimes you just 334 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: hear people say something. 335 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: You say, Oh, that's really good. 336 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 2: I'm going to borrow that one. It's possible I came 337 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 2: up with it myself. It's possible I borrowed it from 338 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 2: someone who knows. But so I actually I cannot remember 339 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 2: the origin story. But what a zombie project is essentially, 340 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 2: it's the walking undead. It is the shuffling, lingering project that, 341 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 2: if you are honest about it, will not ever have 342 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 2: material impact. But it's the thing that is sucking all 343 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 2: the innovation life out of an organization, or it's the 344 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 2: thing that's killing your ability to do new things because 345 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 2: you're working on all these zombie efforts that are taking 346 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 2: all of your time and all of your energy. I 347 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 2: found that that idea really resonates inside large organizations because 348 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 2: they have a lot of these things. Because there is 349 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: such a stigma about raising your hand and saying the 350 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: idea that we're working on is stupid. The idea that 351 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 2: we're working on is never going to work. We really 352 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 2: should stop this. There's such a stigma around it that 353 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 2: the zombies shuffle and linger on and the organization says, 354 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 2: we wish we could innovate, but we have no time, 355 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 2: space or capacity, when of course they do if they 356 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 2: could put the zombies out of their misery, but that's 357 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 2: easier said than done. 358 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 4: I'm interested in your own working life. 359 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,239 Speaker 3: What are some zombies that you've identified for yourself and 360 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 3: successfully killed. 361 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: That's a great question. 362 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 2: Well, you know, when I went through the transition earlier 363 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 2: this year from going from the managing partner role to 364 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 2: really transitioning that role to one of my US colleagues, 365 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 2: Patrick Biggery, and really focusing in on activities here in Singapore, 366 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 2: it was a great moment for me because it allowed 367 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 2: me to step back on my calendar and say, which 368 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 2: of the regular standing meetings that I had with colleagues 369 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 2: who I love dearly, by the way, which are ones 370 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 2: that are really things that are great investments of my 371 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 2: time for both me and the other person, And which 372 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 2: are ones that had just become routines that we did 373 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 2: because the calendar told us that we should meet every 374 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 2: x number of weeks. So it was a cleansing moment 375 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 2: that allowed me to say, there are a couple of 376 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 2: these things that I think makes sense on both sides 377 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 2: for us to keep. And there's a whole range of 378 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 2: things that had gotten into the level of rituals that 379 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: if you asked either side, does it actually make sense 380 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 2: for us to be talking with this degree of frequency, 381 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 2: they would actually say no, both sides would So that 382 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 2: was something that I found again this great cleansing moment 383 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 2: because I could actually remove fifty to seventy percent of 384 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 2: my standing meetings and nobody really noticed. They appreciated having 385 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 2: more time, but they didn't notice set the meetings were 386 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 2: it happening. 387 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: So you know, I had. 388 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: The ability of a transitioning role to do this, but 389 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 2: it taught me that we all should do this. We 390 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 2: all should step back and say, what are the rituals 391 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 2: that I'm doing, the routine meetings that I have that 392 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 2: actually don't really have a purpose anymore, and how do 393 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 2: I get rid of them? 394 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 3: Can you give me an example or two of those 395 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 3: meetings that you've now gotten rid of and no one 396 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 3: has even or gared. 397 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 2: One of the ones that I would point to is, 398 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: you know, we had a standing operations update that I 399 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 2: would have with my colleague Gene Rumsey from the United States. 400 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: And I love Gene dearly. You know, Gene and I 401 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: go way back. 402 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 2: We've worked together for fourteen years, and we had a 403 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 2: standing update call and we would have a call and 404 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 2: dutifully try to find agenda items to go through. But 405 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 2: you know, it turned out that Gene and I could 406 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: handle those agenda items really well via email. So we 407 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 2: just kind of stopped having the calls and we started 408 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 2: doing email updates. And Gene is just a ferocious task 409 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 2: manager and she gets her job done exceedingly well without 410 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 2: requiring those calls, and there you go, it just gets done. 411 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 2: So that is one example where we learned from doing 412 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 2: this that email allowed both of us to save time 413 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 2: and didn't impair either one of our the effectiveness of 414 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 2: either one of us. 415 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: And you know, again, I bet you if anyone. 416 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 2: Looks at their calendar with some degree of I guess 417 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 2: objective skepticism, you will see the equivalent of the Gene 418 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 2: Ramsey update call, where once she got a call, you 419 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 2: got to prepare for it, you got to set an 420 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 2: agenda for it. Someone's got to send a follow up note, 421 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 2: and so on. And if you just say, what would 422 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 2: happen if we didn't do this, it ends up that 423 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 2: the world just keeps on turning, And the world has 424 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 2: kept on turning. And again, Gene knows that I am 425 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 2: a long term friend and big supporter, so she knows 426 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: exactly what I'm saying when I go through this example. 427 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 4: Now, in the world of consulting and also in the 428 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 4: world of writing, there are a lot of rejections and 429 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 4: setbacks to deal with, and I'm wondering, what is your 430 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 4: strategy for dealing with those rejections and setbacks that are 431 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 4: an inevitable part of the line of work that you 432 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 4: do well. 433 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 2: Certainly it is a large part of the world, so 434 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,959 Speaker 2: a large part of the world. So, for example, one 435 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 2: of the places where I've had the good fortune of 436 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 2: publishing a few articles is that the print version of 437 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 2: Harvard Business Review. And for every article that I've gotten in, 438 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 2: there have been at least two that sometimes have gotten 439 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 2: to full drafts that have been rejected or have been 440 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 2: what I thought were quite good ideas that got rejected. 441 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 2: So there really are two things that are important. Number One, 442 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 2: the best way line is fouling. One said, to have 443 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 2: good idea is to have lots of ideas. So I'm 444 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 2: always working on a bunch of things, and if one 445 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 2: of them doesn't work out, that's okay. There's another couple 446 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 2: that come behind it. The other is just to have 447 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 2: other vehicles to express the ideas. Was something that HBr 448 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 2: rejected about eighteen months ago that I had a friend 449 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 2: over at Sloan Management Review that was. 450 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: Looking for a forward to a book. 451 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 2: So I said, hey, I've got what I think is 452 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 2: pretty good content. 453 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: Might it work in this location? And they said sure. 454 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 1: And I had another thing. 455 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 2: That HBr rejected that we just decided to sell published 456 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 2: on insight dot com. And I scratched the itch of 457 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 2: having something that was fully formed down in the world 458 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: that I could send to people. And sometimes you just 459 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 2: write them for the sake of writing them, and people say, 460 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 2: that's really great, not for our publication, but. 461 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: You know, at least you've gotten it off your chest. 462 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: Had something that I wrote recently. 463 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: It was about a six thousand word thing about innovation 464 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 2: lessons I'd learned from my children. I didn't think, honestly, 465 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 2: anyone was going to publish it, but it was great 466 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 2: fun to write it, and I at least have it now, 467 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 2: so you know, sometimes you recognize that the point of 468 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 2: writing isn't to get published. The point of writing is 469 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 2: to just give birth to an idea that's in your 470 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 2: head and it's okay, lives on your laptop. That wasn't 471 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,959 Speaker 2: really the lessons from the Kids was. I really liked 472 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 2: the way it came out. I knew no publication. It's 473 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,719 Speaker 2: too self promotional, No one would ever publish it, but 474 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 2: it was a ton of fun to write. 475 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 4: At least, have you published it on the side website? 476 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, it's just it's on my laptop. 477 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 2: And that's only because there actually is a shard of 478 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 2: it that I think will be the basis for something 479 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 2: else that I do. And that's I guess another basic piece. 480 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 2: You know, we tell you, both of us, We tell 481 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 2: our respective clients that when you go and try something 482 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 2: and it doesn't work commercially, that doesn't mean that you 483 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 2: fail because often the learning that comes from it will 484 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 2: open up new avenues to growth. You know, lots of 485 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 2: people have written and talked about this, and this I 486 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 2: think will be an example of it. So the innovation 487 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 2: lesson from my third kid, Harry, I think actually will 488 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 2: be something that will be an anchor of one of 489 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 2: the next articles that I work on. So I have 490 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: hesitated to publish it because I want to use a 491 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 2: piece of it for other purposes. 492 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 4: That's cool. 493 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 3: And with your writing, a lot of your writing is 494 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 3: done with co authors, which I imagine is a pretty 495 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 3: unique type of collaboration and personally, like, I've never done 496 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 3: it myself, but I'm very curious, how how do you 497 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 3: co write an article or a book. What does that 498 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 3: process in terms of collaboration look like for you? 499 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: That's a great question. 500 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 2: So at least for me, the thing that leads to 501 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 2: successful co authoring is if it is very clear the 502 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,360 Speaker 2: different roles that people are playing in the process. And 503 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: sometimes when I am co authoring, I am the one 504 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 2: who owns the pen or owns the typewriter or whatever typewriter, 505 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 2: the keyboard or whatever. So I'm the person who's doing 506 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 2: the original drafting, and the colleague who's the co author 507 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 2: is a sparring partner and they're providing. 508 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: Lots of input and helping to shape things et cetera. 509 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's the other way around, where my role is 510 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 2: to provide feedback and comments, et cetera. Where I've seen 511 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,719 Speaker 2: it get off the rail is when everybody thinks that 512 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 2: they are the lead author, or they're the one with 513 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 2: pen in hands, or nobody thinks that they are, and 514 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 2: you send a lot of emails back and forth, but 515 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 2: no one actually goes and integrates that together into pros 516 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 2: and somebody's actually got to go and do that work. 517 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 2: So when you get the right process, when you get 518 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 2: the right clarity of roles, you can have something really 519 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 2: powerful because you know you're getting lots of thoughts collided together. 520 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 2: When you don't have that clarity of roles, you can 521 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 2: just get chaos and confusion, and that's not particularly fun 522 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: for anyone. 523 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: So yeah, and I've seen both of those. 524 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 2: I've had some would be collaborative efforts that have never 525 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 2: gotten anywhere for those reasons, and other ones that have 526 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 2: been huge successes. 527 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 3: Hmmm, that's interesting getting that inside. Another question I have 528 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 3: for you is what is something like a way of 529 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 3: working that you maybe used to do but stopped doing, Like, 530 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 3: what's something that you used to do in terms of 531 00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 3: I don't know, it might have been like a habit 532 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 3: or a strategy, but you now find that it no 533 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 3: longer works for you and you changed. 534 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 2: It's a very interesting question. So I will channel some 535 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 2: advice that I got from our co founder Clayton Christensen 536 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 2: Gosh sixteen years ago to hey explain this. So, the 537 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 2: first book that I wrote was with Clay, was a 538 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 2: book called Seeing What's Next, came out in two thousand 539 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 2: and four, and the way that I wrote that book 540 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 2: was classic writing. I went and did a bunch of research, 541 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 2: read a bunch of things, did a bunch of interviews, 542 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 2: wrote a draft of the manuscript, and then shared that 543 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 2: draft with Clay. And because this was something where my 544 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 2: role was to be the first person who put words 545 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,479 Speaker 2: on paper and Clay's role was to be a sparring 546 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 2: partner and get his voice in and so on. And 547 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 2: never forget what Clay said. Clay very kindly said the 548 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,199 Speaker 2: way that he wrote his books was to give a 549 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 2: bunch of talks, and by giving a bunch of talks, 550 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:56,360 Speaker 2: an argument would. 551 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: Begin to form in his head. 552 00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 2: He would write the argument down and then he would 553 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 2: put additional details behind it. And that was the way 554 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 2: that a book would be created, and it was a 555 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 2: very kind way of him saying the writing was too 556 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 2: dense and too complicated and the argument wasn't very cohesive, 557 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 2: which she was right. The book needed a lot of work, 558 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 2: and even the final version of the book I look 559 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 2: back on and grit my teeth because it's just too 560 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 2: dense and complicated. But of course, you know, at the 561 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 2: time two thousand and two, I was twenty seven years old, 562 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 2: nobody was asking me to give talks anywhere, so I 563 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 2: couldn't really do anything with it. The next couple books 564 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 2: still were kind of like seeing What's next, where it 565 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 2: really was more try and synthesize the field experience and 566 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 2: write it up and then revise the book. But as 567 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 2: you began to get to the twenty twelve and on books, 568 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 2: I really did shift the habit from writing first and 569 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 2: then presenting to presenting first and then writing and dual transformation. 570 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 2: The latest book was the clearest example of this, so 571 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 2: I knew I was ready to do the first draft 572 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 2: of the book when I had done about fifteen presentations 573 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 2: on the topic and had something that hung together. And 574 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 2: I think that's one reason why it feels just a 575 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 2: little bit more conversational than the prior books, because it 576 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 2: really did start as a presentation first. So that's an 577 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 2: example of a pretty major paradigm shift in how I 578 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 2: explored at least book lengthd ideas, moving from writing first 579 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 2: to presenting first. And of course there's still research based 580 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 2: behind it, but it's just done in a very different 581 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 2: sort of way. 582 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 3: And I guess that then begs the question, how do 583 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 3: you create a presentation? 584 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 2: Well, every presentation starts with a blank slide, right, So 585 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 2: you sit there and you stare at a slide and 586 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 2: you try and figure out what's going to go on 587 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 2: to it. But at least for me, this is one 588 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 2: of the benefits of now being in this field. I'd 589 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 2: argue for about eighteen years now, going back to about 590 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 2: two thousand when I was still in business school but 591 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 2: started thinking about innovation, growth and related topics. 592 00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: I got a lot of slides in which I can draw. 593 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: So when I'm giving a talk or presentation, there is 594 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 2: always a curation component of it. So what are the 595 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 2: other things that I've done in the past that I 596 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 2: can leverage on to at least begin putting the scaffolding together, 597 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 2: and then you start thinking about, Okay. 598 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: What are the new twists? What are the new things 599 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:17,479 Speaker 1: that I want to do? 600 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: So you know, as an example, Monday of this week 601 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 2: in Singapore, I had a seventy five minute presentation where 602 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 2: I was describing dual transformation and then going into some 603 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 2: of the how. 604 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: To's around it. 605 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 2: So about two weeks ago, I found myself in the 606 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: American Club, one of the places where I feel like 607 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 2: I can get creative task done. I opened up a 608 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 2: blank presentation. I started pulling some things from previous presentations. 609 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 2: I had a couple big gaps where I said, Okay, 610 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 2: I need to figure out what I'm going to say here. 611 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: I dummied up a few slides. 612 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 2: I asked a couple of colleagues who are smarter than 613 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 2: me in areas that I needed to get smart and fast, 614 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 2: what's the best thing you've got here? 615 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: I pulled their material. I really pulled it in there. 616 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 2: Walked away from it for a little bit, looked at 617 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: what worked and what didn't work, refined it, and then 618 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 2: gave the presentation on Monday, eighty percent of which I like, 619 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 2: twenty percent of which I want to do differently next time. 620 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: I give us some more talk, and here we are. 621 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 3: Excellent now I want to finish the interview with a 622 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 3: few questions around what you're currently consuming, because I think 623 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 3: it can be so hard for the average person to 624 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 3: know what should they consume in terms of, you know, 625 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 3: books and podcasts and so forth. 626 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 4: There's so much information out there. 627 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 3: So to start with books, what a couple of great 628 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 3: books that you've read recently. 629 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 2: So when I'm reading, and I am a reasonably heavy reader, 630 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 2: I track all these things, so you know, I read 631 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 2: on average about forty books a year, and I read 632 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 2: because you know, to the question that you had before, 633 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 2: ninety percent of business books aren't read. I feel professional 634 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 2: obligation whenever I start a book to actually finish a book, 635 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 2: because I know what it's like to write something. So 636 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 2: I really do get to the end of just about 637 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 2: everything that I start. But I tend to balance between 638 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 2: reading kind of mind emptying fiction and business books and biographies, 639 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 2: and I'll go back and forth between those three things 640 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: just so I'm getting lots of different stimuli, and at 641 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 2: least that the business book category. The couple of things 642 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 2: that I've read most recently that I found to be 643 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 2: most interesting, the Principles book by Ray Dalio, I thought 644 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 2: was a really interesting read, just because it is an 645 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 2: example of trying to create a scale organization that operates 646 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 2: on principles, algorithms, or whatever you want to call it. 647 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 2: I found it to be just a very interesting read 648 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 2: because of that. And then the other thing I would 649 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 2: nominate in the business category that's relatively recent read is 650 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 2: The New Leadership Literacies by Bob Johanson. He's from the 651 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 2: Institute for the Future. He's been a futurist for fifty years, 652 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 2: doing ten year forecasts, rolling ten year forecasts for fifty years, 653 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 2: and so he's outlived a lot of his forecasts. 654 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: The New Leadership. 655 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 2: Literacy talks about not just what leaders need in today's 656 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 2: uncertain times, it also talks about Bob's journey, which made it, 657 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 2: I think, just a really interesting read. If I look 658 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 2: at non Fair, if I look at fiction books that 659 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 2: I've read recently, well there's a whole bunch of things 660 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 2: that I would point to that just caught my attention. 661 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 2: Most recent book I read, I'm looking at my kindle 662 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 2: now to make sure I don't make this up. Most 663 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 2: recent book that I read is Lost Empress by Sergio 664 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 2: de la Pava, which was a pretty fascinating borderline metaphysical 665 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 2: book that I just got really engrossed in. There's some 666 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 2: really trashy fiction as well that I will not name 667 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 2: because it make people think less of me. But sometimes 668 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 2: you need that too, you need to empty your brain 669 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 2: a little bit. 670 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 4: Definitely. How about podcasts? 671 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 3: What are a couple of podcasts that you're consuming at 672 00:32:59,200 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 3: the moment. 673 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting that the podcast revolution, at least 674 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 2: for me, has just not really caught, you know. So 675 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 2: I have participated in podcasts. I've listened to specific episodes 676 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 2: tied to those podcasts in which I've participated, Innovation Ecosystem 677 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 2: in Europe. Anything that Amantha does I would highly recommend. 678 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 2: But I'm not a regular podcast listener. My audio, the 679 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 2: audio stimuli I receive is music, you know. I listen 680 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 2: to music when I'm in between things. But I really 681 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 2: like to read. 682 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: I don't process video information. I don't like listening to things. 683 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 2: I really like reading because it's just the pace at 684 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 2: which I consume things is faster than those other two forms. 685 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 2: So I'm not really a big podcast connoisseur. In fact, 686 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 2: I'm not a podcast connoisseur at all. 687 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 4: Well, giving you like reading things, are there any a 688 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 4: new letter. 689 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 3: Are you newsletters that you subscribe to and actually look 690 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 3: forward to receiving. 691 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 2: So the things that I read regularly, I read three 692 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 2: magazines with almost religious discipline. So religious discipline might be 693 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 2: an oxymoron, but whatever, So I read with discipline. I 694 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 2: read The Economist, Harvard Business Review, and Entertainment Weekly and 695 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 2: again trying to keep balance of perspectives with a great 696 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 2: degree of discipline. Newsletters I get the Economist Daily Update newsletter, 697 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 2: which is great. 698 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,959 Speaker 1: Venture Pulse is another one that I like to read. 699 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 2: And then I browse a lot, you know, so just 700 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 2: looking at what you see in the Apple news feed 701 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 2: or what are some of the links that will take 702 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,879 Speaker 2: you to various places. I do try to make sure 703 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 2: with the degree of discipline that I flick, you know, 704 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 2: flick through what is going on in Twitter, flick through 705 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 2: what you see in the Apple news feed, and try 706 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 2: to just follow a little bit of randomness is you know, 707 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 2: you just never know where that will lead you. And 708 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 2: sometimes it's the really random article about what's going on 709 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 2: in this random social media star's life that sometimes we'll 710 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 2: create a connection that you didn't anticipate. So, you know, 711 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 2: sometimes I really do like to follow the backlinks and 712 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 2: just end up in a very strange place because again, 713 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 2: it just creates a connection you didn't expect, which can 714 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 2: then sometimes. 715 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: Lead to a metaphor or a story or a way. 716 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 2: To communicate a concept that you didn't expect. So I 717 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 2: can't tell you exactly the latest going is on with 718 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 2: the Kardashians, but. 719 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: You can't help. 720 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 2: Sometimes sometimes you will find things where you don't expect them, 721 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 2: and it's important to follow those threads. 722 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 3: I think definitely, definitely, And what are your favorite tools 723 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 3: for testing new business ideas? 724 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 2: So favorite tools for testing new business ideas is you know, 725 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,439 Speaker 2: this is again the Christiansen advice from so many years ago. 726 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 2: It's being in front of real people and talking to 727 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 2: them about it. So, I mean a lot of my 728 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 2: prototyping is mental prototyping that will lead to some form 729 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 2: of a PowerPoint slide, which might be nothing more than 730 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 2: a picture that I can use to then tell a story. 731 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,399 Speaker 2: And to me that it's a great way to test 732 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 2: new ideas. It's just talking them out with people. And 733 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,479 Speaker 2: you know, of course sometimes we will go a little 734 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 2: bit deeper and try something out as a new console 735 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 2: offering or process or pedagogy or whatever, But at least 736 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 2: for me, a lot of it is presenting, listening to myself, 737 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 2: trying to explain the concept, because if you can't explain it, 738 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,720 Speaker 2: then it probably isn't going to work that well. 739 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: Seeing how people react to it, and then going from 740 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:18,240 Speaker 1: there awesome. 741 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 3: And finally, Scott, where can people find you and learn 742 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 3: more about you? 743 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 4: And you know sorright? 744 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 2: So my Twitter feed is at Scott d Anthony at LinkedIn. 745 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 2: I'm LinkedIn profile Scott d Anthony www dot nsit dot com. 746 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 2: My email address is s Anthony at insight dot com. 747 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 2: I live live a quasi public life, so it's not 748 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 2: that hard to track me down. 749 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,879 Speaker 3: Fantastic, fantastic. Well, look, I've loved this chat, Scott. Thank 750 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 3: you so much for coming on the show. 751 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 2: Now, thank you very much, Amantha. I appreciate the time 752 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 2: as always, and it's a real privilege to participate in 753 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 2: this discussion. 754 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 3: Hello there, that's it today's episode. If you liked it, 755 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 3: there are plenty of others that you might also enjoy, 756 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 3: such as my chat with Mia Friedman about her trick 757 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 3: for overcoming procrastination and my interview with Rachel Botsman, who 758 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 3: shares her one minute alternative to mindfulness. Finally, it's great 759 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 3: getting feedback from listeners such as yourself, so feel free 760 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 3: to give this podcast a review in iTunes or wherever 761 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 3: you get your podcasts. And if you like this episode, 762 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 3: make sure you hit the subscribe button so that you 763 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,760 Speaker 3: can be alerted whenever new episodes are released. 764 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 4: See you next time.