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Speaker 1: As we know, a fresh reward of five hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars is on offer for information that leads police to

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Speaker 1: discover the body of Peter Falconio. It comes as his

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Speaker 1: convicted killer, Bradley John Murdock, is reportedly near death, having

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Speaker 1: been transferred out of prison and into Alice Springs Hospital

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Speaker 1: for palliative care. Police say the reward was announced to

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Speaker 1: coincide with the twenty fourth anniversary of mister Falconio's disappearance

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Speaker 1: in the hope of giving his family closure. Now joining

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Speaker 1: us on the line is former Northern Territory Police officer

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Speaker 1: Colleen Gwynn, who led the investigation over two decades ago.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, Colleen, how are you, Katie. You're really good,

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Speaker 1: so good to speak to you this morning. I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you what you know. It must have been quite an

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Speaker 1: unbelievable case to work on.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah. You have those defining moments or times in

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Speaker 2: your life, and I've had a few, but this is

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Speaker 2: one that it was kind of an honor to work

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Speaker 2: on it, to be honest, because it was such a challenge.

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Speaker 2: But it is a defining moment because you kind of

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Speaker 2: take on a lot of the emotions of the family,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of that stress and anxiety that's caused

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Speaker 2: by the fact that, you know, the family lost their

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Speaker 2: son Joe and lost their partner and under circumstances, which

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Speaker 2: is pretty significant because it's in the middle of the

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Speaker 2: some of the remotest parts of the world, in a

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Speaker 2: country that is far far away. So that's why I

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Speaker 2: guess it's attracted so much interest for people all over

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Speaker 2: the world. So yeah, absolutely significant part of my life.

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Speaker 1: Tell me, at what point did you sort of take

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Speaker 1: over the investigation?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was about it was a few months old

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Speaker 2: by then, probably within five months, I think I took over.

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Speaker 2: They made some changes. I came in, and then you know,

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Speaker 2: we realized that we were weren't progressing as quickly as

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Speaker 2: we wanted to, so we had to change a few

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Speaker 2: things up, and then you know, started on a new

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Speaker 2: strategy and how we could try and identify who was

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Speaker 2: responsible for these amongst what was meons of pieces of

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Speaker 2: information that we were struggling to manage at the time.

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Speaker 1: So five months in, I mean at that point there

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Speaker 1: was no was there any persons of interest that had

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Speaker 1: been identified?

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Speaker 2: Look, there was, but I think what the biggest challenge

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Speaker 2: at that time was is the length of that list,

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Speaker 2: It just wasn't manageable. So we certainly had persons of interest,

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Speaker 2: but I think we had to think about how do

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Speaker 2: we reduce that, what criteria can we use to really

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Speaker 2: get to those that were genuine persons of interest? And

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Speaker 2: that was kind of part of the work that I did,

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Speaker 2: was trying to work out how we can get some

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Speaker 2: order to this investigation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so there obviously got that order to the investigation,

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Speaker 1: and then I'm assuming you started to put things together

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Speaker 1: and then reached a point where you know where you

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Speaker 1: got this person of interest Bradley John Murdoch.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, the team that was there already had Bradley

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Speaker 2: John Murdock as one of their persons of interest. But

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Speaker 2: what's difficult when you get information that comes on from

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Speaker 2: everywhere is trying to find a priority with who do

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Speaker 2: you prioritize And that's part of the problem. But he

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Speaker 2: was there from the start. We had calls about Bradley

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Speaker 2: Murdock very early on in the piece.

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Speaker 1: And so then was there ever, like, was there you

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Speaker 1: know in terms of the evidence, how compelling was the

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Speaker 1: evidence against him?

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Speaker 2: You can't argue with DNA, and once you coupled with

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Speaker 2: a whole range of circumstantial evidence where he was at

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Speaker 2: the time. The description the the DNA both in the

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Speaker 2: Kombe on Joanne, it's it's pretty compelling and you just

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Speaker 2: cannot argue with that. And that's the beauty of having

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Speaker 2: DNA and the technology and a national database that was

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Speaker 2: in its infancy at the time. It's really critical in

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Speaker 2: these matters.

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Speaker 1: Now in terms of this reward that's now been announced,

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Speaker 1: what's your reaction to that. Do you think it's going

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Speaker 1: to make a difference.

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Speaker 2: Look, it's a great strategy. There's no doubt about that rewards.

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Speaker 2: There's no guarantee with a reward, so you're damned if

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Speaker 2: you do it. You're damned if you don't. But there's

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Speaker 2: nothing to be lost by doing it. And what it

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Speaker 2: does is so with any investigation, you really want to

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Speaker 2: kind of I always say you want to close that

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Speaker 2: kind of justice loop, and part of it is identifying

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Speaker 2: the offender, having them convicted by a jury, and then

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Speaker 2: you want to get some closure for the family, particularly

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Speaker 2: with them being able to bury their their son, their partner,

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Speaker 2: and in this case we've never had that, so that

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Speaker 2: part of it is so the loop is not closed,

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Speaker 2: and the value of life is so significant that police

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Speaker 2: have to try everything to get not only Brad Murdoch

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Speaker 2: but any of his associates to give some information about

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Speaker 2: where Peter is, what he did with Peter. It's really important.

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Speaker 2: So I really do congratulate police for taking this and

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Speaker 2: keeping this alive.

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you think like he's remained tight lipped

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Speaker 1: about what happened. He's always maintained that he's innocent, hasn't.

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Speaker 2: He Yeah, look, absolutely he has. So if you take

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Speaker 2: that stance and you're not going to suddenly say, well

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Speaker 2: I'm innocent, but I know where the body is, it

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Speaker 2: sort of doesn't add up and Katie, if you think

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Speaker 2: about it. So he got life imprisonment in the territory

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Speaker 2: twenty eight year non parole period, then Northern Territory government

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Speaker 2: bring in the nobody no parole in twenty sixteen, and

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Speaker 2: he's still stay steadfast. We enticed him with an offer

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Speaker 2: to move to Western Australia to be closer to family.

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Speaker 2: You tell us where the body is, wouldn't tell us.

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Speaker 2: So I've got my theories about why I don't think

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Speaker 2: he wants to cooperate. He's just refused to cooperate at

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Speaker 2: any stage and has completely denied his involvement. And you

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Speaker 2: know this is really prolonged, the terrible ordeal for the

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Speaker 2: Falcaneo families and Joanne Colleen.

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Speaker 1: Are you prepared to reveal what those theories are? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Look, I think he sees this as an element of control.

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Speaker 2: He still has control of something. So Joanne escaped, he

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Speaker 2: never thought that he would have a witness who is

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Speaker 2: who could then provide evidence of who committed the crime.

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Speaker 2: So he lost control of this. If you think about

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Speaker 2: the crime itself, it was premeditated, it was organized. Then

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Speaker 2: he became very disorganized and control. He still has control

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Speaker 2: because he is not willing to disclose the whereabouts of Peter.

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Speaker 1: And you look, do you think it is about control now?

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Speaker 1: Like keeping that control even as he is reportedly on

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Speaker 1: his deathbed or is there? I know there's been some

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Speaker 1: suggestion that he that he may not even remember where

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Speaker 1: where Falconio is.

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Speaker 2: Look, that's another theory is he may not He just

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Speaker 2: may not know. I think that when Joanne escaped, then

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Speaker 2: that through his plan out the door, and that would

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Speaker 2: have brought an element of panic, stress, anxiety, and his

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Speaker 2: disposal of Peter might have been done in such haste

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Speaker 2: that he may not exactly remember where it was, and

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Speaker 2: I think we have to be open to that, considering

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Speaker 2: the enormous pressure he would have been under.

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Speaker 1: It's Look, it's such a you know, it's it's a story,

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Speaker 1: it's a situation. You know, the story is not the

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Speaker 1: right word, I guess, because it's it's impacted you know,

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Speaker 1: the Falconios and Joe Ane Leigh's life in the way

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Speaker 1: that it has in an unimaginable way. So I don't

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Speaker 1: know that story is the right word. It's a situation

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Speaker 1: that captivated the world. Colleen, Why do you think that

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Speaker 1: it really did captivate the world in the way in

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Speaker 1: which it did.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think it's got a lot of mystique with it.

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Speaker 2: So there's so many people that if you have a look,

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Speaker 2: people that, well, he's not guilty of this. He didn't

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Speaker 2: do it. The reason why he's not telling you where

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Speaker 2: the body is because he didn't do it. Now we

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Speaker 2: all know that a jury convicted him in unanimous decision.

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Speaker 2: He's convicted. I know the evidence intimately, and I know

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Speaker 2: that this is the person that did this. So the

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Speaker 2: thing about this case is there is interest in Joanne

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Speaker 2: as an individual. There are things that happen at the

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Speaker 2: time that people weren't comfortable with. They thought her reaction

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Speaker 2: should be different aka Lindy Chambers. So she's not reacting,

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Speaker 2: she's not doing how I think a victim should react,

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Speaker 2: how I would react in this situation. So you have

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Speaker 2: that coupled with the fact that we have Bradley Murdoch.

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Speaker 2: His profile in itself is of interest to people because

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Speaker 2: it's very similar to other I guess psychopathic offenders, his description, everything,

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Speaker 2: and the fact that it happened where it did. It's

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Speaker 2: so remote and people are interested in Australia, particularly those

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Speaker 2: that have never been here. They have this theory about

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Speaker 2: Australia that it's just full of out back salt bush

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Speaker 2: and snakes. So it has everything. It ticks all these boxes.

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Speaker 2: People are interested.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it truly does. And I you know, I reckon

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Speaker 1: I moved here just after it had happened maybe, And

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Speaker 1: I actually think I was working for the Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: Police as a media adviser when yeah, in the media units,

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Speaker 1: so I remember as in when the certainly when the

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Speaker 1: case was in court, and I know even for me,

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Speaker 1: I was like I was really fascinated by it as

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Speaker 1: a very young woman, and I know that everybody around

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory. But even now, Colin, we still yesterday

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Speaker 1: we were still getting messages people saying, you know, Katie,

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Speaker 1: maybe he doesn't know where the body is because he

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Speaker 1: didn't do it. I mean, for you, after dedicating your

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Speaker 1: life to this investigation for a long period of time,

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Speaker 1: you touched on it before the evidence, do you have

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Speaker 1: any doubt in your mind whether this man murdered Peter Falconio.

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Speaker 2: None whatsoever. Absolutely he did this. If you sat there

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Speaker 2: and looked at every detail of the evidence, it is

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Speaker 2: incredible and it's very rare that you get a jury

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Speaker 2: convict and offender of a homicide when there is no body,

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Speaker 2: and to do that you have to have very good,

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Speaker 2: compelling evidence, and that's what we did. Look and again

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Speaker 2: that's the team that undertook this investigation, where they spent

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Speaker 2: four years of their life on this. Every day was

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Speaker 2: on this case, and if they weren't there working on it,

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Speaker 2: they were thinking about it. And we absolutely prevented a

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Speaker 2: remarkable case. It's a circumstantial case because you don't have

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Speaker 2: a body, but there is no doubt that Bradley Murdock

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Speaker 2: committed this this crime, and I've always said it, I

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Speaker 2: knowing how organized and how cunning and premeditated it was,

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Speaker 2: I've always wondered, what are the ones he's responsible?

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Speaker 1: Right, So we seem to have lost Colleen Gwin there

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Speaker 1: somehow the phones are dropped out. Hopefully were able to

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Speaker 1: get her back because I reckon she was about to

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Speaker 1: say She's always wondered what else he may have been

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Speaker 1: responsible for. So we're able to get that phone line

201
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Speaker 1: to work again. I'm not too sure what has gone

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Speaker 1: on there, but as I said, yeah, even yesterday we

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Speaker 1: were still getting messages people sort of saying to me, Wilfi,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm not sure whether you know whether he

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Speaker 1: did it. That's why he doesn't know where the body is.

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Speaker 1: But it's interesting, isn't it? Then to hear from Colleen Gwynn, who,

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Speaker 1: as I seid, dedicated her life to this investigation for

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Speaker 1: a very long time and has no doubt in her

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Speaker 1: mind that he is absolutely the person who committed this crime. Colleen,

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Speaker 1: I think I've got you back.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what happened, don't know.

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Speaker 1: But I reckon you were maybe about to say, there's

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Speaker 1: not only any doubt in your mind that he did that,

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Speaker 1: but you wonder what else?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, I think his profile and the fact that

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Speaker 2: he was a drug runner at the time he did

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Speaker 2: these drives through some of the remotest parts. He's got

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Speaker 2: a really interesting history. I know there was a lot

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Speaker 2: of investigative teams across Australia that were also interested in

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Speaker 2: Bradley Murdoch for some unsolved matters, so come that. I

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Speaker 2: think that it would be really interesting if he did

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Speaker 2: decide to start talking, because I wonder what else is there?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd be fascinated to know more, Colleen before I

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Speaker 1: let you go this morning. You know, it's I know

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Speaker 1: that it must be a really difficult job working on

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Speaker 1: a case like this, not only because you are obviously

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Speaker 1: trying to you know, to catch a murderer, but also

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Speaker 1: dealing with, you know, a distraught family and grieving family

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Speaker 1: and joe Anne Lees. Have you had much contact with

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Speaker 1: the Falconio family or Joe Anne Lee's over the last

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Speaker 1: twenty years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have. It's sporadic, like, it's not like you

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Speaker 2: want to be contacting them regularly. I give them the

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Speaker 2: respect of if they want to chat to me if

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Speaker 2: there's anything on their minds, by all means, give me

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Speaker 2: a call. Yeah. I feel their pain every time I

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Speaker 2: speak to them, and I know now they are also

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Speaker 2: still holding hope that perhaps that as a parting, a

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Speaker 2: parting I guess, not a gift, but an act of

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Speaker 2: good faith, that he will disclose what he knows. And

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Speaker 2: as I said, maybe he doesn't know, but he must

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Speaker 2: be able to give us some information that may assist

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Speaker 2: please to define Peter's remains.

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Speaker 1: Well. Colin Gwin, it is always great to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: I tell you what people are messaging in. You know,

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Speaker 1: can you ask col Angwin what she thinks about the

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Speaker 1: Aaron Patterson case. They're asking all sorts of things. It

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Speaker 1: sounds like they want you to be a regular, you know,

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Speaker 1: crime comment for.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've actually been working down in that area and

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Speaker 2: I do. I have a fascination with the mushroom case too,

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Speaker 2: So tell your callers. Yeah, it's a rific case that one. Yeah, wait,

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Speaker 2: wait for the movie I reckon.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, we'll keep an eye on that. Colleen.

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Speaker 2: Good for what mushrooms you?

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Speaker 1: That's exactly right, Colleen, good to speak to you this morning.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for your time, Thank you