WEBVTT - Conversations 8: DV Survivor 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:06.480 This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:11.840 urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:19.000 thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.320 lifeline dot org dot au. 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:33.279 Hello, Welcome to the eighth installment of Conversations. Today we 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:36.440 are joined by our special guest, Domestic Violence New South 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:39.040 Wales Deputy CEO, Elise Phillips. 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:43.000 Welcome release, Thanks Alison, happy to be here now. 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:46.960 Usually we will be joined by Liam Bartlett and Tim Clark, 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:50.080 but both of them Liam's gone to Melbourne and Tim 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:53.280 is in a trial, so just me today anyway. Just 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.000 a little bit of background on you. You're a registered 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.760 psychologist with over thirteen years experience in leadership roles in 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:04.919 the government sector. You haven't lived experience of domestic violence 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:09.720 and family violence and are passionate about influencing systems level 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:14.000 change to increase safety, prevent violence, bring healing for victim 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:18.400 survivors and hold people who use violence accountable. You bring 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.919 strong stakeholder relationships, having spent the past three years working 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:27.000 in the domestic family violence sector and advocating with government 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:30.560 for greater investment where it is most needed. Before this, 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:33.480 you worked as a counselor, group worker and a manager 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:34.720 in family services. 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:35.680 That's me. 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:40.040 Yeah, thank you, Elie. It's very impressive credentials there. But 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:45.280 also you know obviously you've had a challenging like yourself. 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:45.920 Yeah. 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:51.120 Yeah. I was working on the frontlines and supporting frontline 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:56.200 counselors and group workers working with families for many years. 0:01:56.360 --> 0:02:00.000 And after my own marriage and because of domestic effect 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:03.320 family violence, I decided that I wanted to put my 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.960 professional expertise and my lived expertise together are to make 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:10.720 a difference where it's most needed. Because we've just got 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:17.400 incredibly vulnerable people experiencing domestic and family violence, including both 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:21.480 women and children and young people, and so wanted to 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:24.920 be able to try and make a difference. And I 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:27.680 suppose I do that in my current role working for 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:30.799 Domestic Violence in New South Wales by trying to bring 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:34.800 about changes at the systemic levels. So we are a 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:40.360 peak organization. We represent almost two hundred people who are 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:44.679 responding to domestic and family violence, both individual practitioners as 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:51.200 well as services like refugees counseling, case management services, legal 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:55.640 services services that focus on First Nations people and microant 0:02:55.639 --> 0:03:00.880 and refugee communities and services right across New southwad in metro, 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.600 regional and rural areas. We listen to kind of people 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:06.880 on the front lines who are doing this work day 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:09.520 in and day out, and then we talk to government 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:12.160 and we talk to police, and we talk to courts, 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:16.559 and we advocate for things to improve in terms of legislation, 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:21.840 in terms of training and support for people who are responding, 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:27.600 and advocating most importantly for funding so that services are 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:30.519 adequately resourced to help all of the people who need 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:31.520 it in a timely way. 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:34.360 Okay, there's a lot of questions that jump into my 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.320 head just having listened to all of that. First of all, 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:40.440 how different are you from the person who came out 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:43.360 of that relationship back in the day to who you 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:43.920 are now. 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:49.480 Look, I think that you know, I haven't even probably 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:54.200 even reflected on that question. My life is very different. 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:56.640 My life is very different. I have a different job, 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:01.360 my home life is incredibly different. Has been a process 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:05.680 of recovery and healing. But for many victim survivors, particularly 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:10.120 people who have to co parent with the person who 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:15.080 was abusive and violent towards them, there's no end point. 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:20.480 Leaving a relationship doesn't necessarily mean that control or abuse ends, 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:26.000 It just changes. And having to coperent with someone is 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:28.440 really challenging when there is a history of domestic and 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:32.080 family violence. So it's a day to day journey even now. 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:34.920 I'd imagine when you're coming out or something like that, 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:39.000 your self esteem and everything like that would be at 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:43.200 sort of a low point and to be able to 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:46.760 transition to the advocating role and to be proactive the 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:49.240 way I mean, was that an easy journey to make. 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:53.600 I think that you gain a lot of strength and 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:58.240 courage from being able to leave. It's such a difficult 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:03.320 thing to leave an abusive relationship because victom survivors are 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:07.520 often having to choose between violence and poverty, between violence 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:11.800 and homelessness. There are so many systems to navigate. If 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:16.200 you report to police, you're engaged with the criminal justice 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:19.279 system as well as having to you know, when there 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.000 is custody of children or financial settlements go through the 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:26.120 family law system. So there are so many challenges and 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.640 so much life adamin to kind of navigate in that process. 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:33.200 But coming out the other side, you gain a lot 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:38.040 of your integrity and self respect back from having taken 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:44.640 those very difficult steps to gain independence back and freedom 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:49.400 to take control back over your own life. And there's 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:53.119 a lot of privilege in my story as a white 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:57.400 woman who was educated and was working and had an income. 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.479 I'm very mindful that there were fewer barriers is that 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:05.159 I had to overcome compared to women who might not 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:07.560 be working, might not have access to income, might not 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.320 have family or friends to be able to support them. 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:14.640 So being able to use my voice and advocate for 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:20.200 system reform and system that better responds to victim survivors 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:25.240 no matter who they are or their circumstances, that is 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:28.560 kind of a way that I can make meaning out 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:32.120 of the experiences that I've had and try and make 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.479 the world a bit of a better, safer place for 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:35.359 my children. 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:39.159 Were you surprise when you got into the advocate role 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:43.680 how prevalent it was and how many barriers still existed. 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:47.039 We know that domestic and family violence is far more 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:50.360 prevalent than many of us realize, and this is one 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:52.680 of the things that we really need to shift if 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.200 we want to be able to reduce the prevalence of 0:06:55.279 --> 0:07:00.480 domestic and family violence. We need to first recognize when 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.359 it's happening and recognize that we really do have some 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:09.000 serious challenges in this country. We know that victims, survivors, themselves, 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:12.360 their friends and family around them may struggle to identify 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:16.240 their experience as violence or abuse, but as a society, 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.560 we're gradually increasing our awareness of this issue and our 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:23.200 understanding of what it looks like. Even if a victim 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:26.520 does know that what they're experiencing is not okay, they 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:28.880 might not be able to report it to others right 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:34.040 away because of shame and stigma, because the perpetrator leads 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:36.520 them to think that they are to blame, because the 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.480 fears of wanting to burden friends or family, or fews 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:43.040 that they won't be believed. As a society, we sometimes 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.960 hold on to the good bloke mentality and find it 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:48.800 hard to believe that a man who is friendly and 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.200 calm and seemingly a good dad could be abusing their 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:57.320 partner or their children behind closed doors, and in some cases, 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:00.720 victims have very legitimate fears that if they tell someone 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:03.520 what's going on, or if they try to leave, that 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:08.200 violence and abuse will escalate. We know that it's when 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:10.760 victim survivors are preparing to leave or when they do 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:14.400 leave an abusive relationship that they are at greatest risk, 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:18.280 and that's when domestic and family violence homicides are much 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:22.600 more likely to occur. So we definitely need to kind 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:26.240 of raise awareness of the prevalence, and we need to 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:31.280 start to change community attitudes. Many people still think, despite 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:35.680 the media reports and protests marching in the streets, that 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:39.319 domestic in family violence isn't happening in their local community. 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:42.200 They think that this is happening to other people in 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.679 other areas. And what we know is that domestic and 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.800 family violence affects families in every community, no matter where 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:53.880 you live, no matter how affluent the suburb, and ignoring 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:58.679 that reality allows this problem to continue. If we recognize it, 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.240 then we realize we can all play a role in 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:02.760 creating a safer society. 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:08.080 I'm still staggered by how how we got here, you know, 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:13.559 to this point where it's still so commonplace that I mean, 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.240 we think we've evolved so much, right, and it's great 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.440 that in the last ten years since Amy died, for example, 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:23.640 that we have words like coerce of control and gas lighting, 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.360 which are you know, even our kids know those words. Now. 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:30.400 It's terrific, it's you know, because certainly that wasn't around 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:33.720 when I was growing up, So that's good at least. 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:38.000 But the term hidden homicide is that something that you 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:40.640 have come across or is that a term that's used. 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:44.600 I mean in England it's very much used and a 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:47.520 lot of certainly all the cases I look at involving 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.320 women and maybe that you know, I haven't really looked 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.520 at the male cases yet. I haven't had that opportunity, 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:57.880 but certainly that the female cases they're all being hidden homicides. 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:01.240 Is this something that you've known about for a long time? 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:04.080 It's not a term that we use commonplace in the 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:08.640 domestic family violence sector Here in Australia. We have the 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:12.120 Domestic Violence Death Review Team here in New South Wales 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.640 and there are similar teams in other jurisdictions in Australia 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:23.120 that look at murders and particularly when they suspect that 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:28.640 domestic and family violence has occurred, and identify what were 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.640 the missed opportunities in that case to be able to intervene, 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.160 to be able to put supports in place, and to 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:38.160 be able to protect those victim survivors. But we don't 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:43.920 yet see government implementing the recommendations of those reports consistently, 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:47.040 and there are still a number of recommendations from those 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:50.600 reports that are yet to be implemented, either in states 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:52.560 and territories or at the national level. 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:57.600 Obviously, femocide is certainly something that's been identified. Is that 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:00.160 something that your organization looks into as well. 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:06.559 Yeah, definitely. We certainly watched the Counting Dead Women statistics 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:09.080 to kind of look at how we're tracking in the 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:13.320 number of women's lives that are being taken during the 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:17.360 domestic in the family violence and the most recent New 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:25.000 South Wales Death Review Team report showed that almost half 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:29.000 of the people who were killed in domestic and family 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:34.319 violence circumstances hadn't reported to police. And it's really crucial 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:39.080 that we don't assume because someone hasn't reported violence and 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:41.760 abuse to the police, It's really important that we don't 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:44.959 assume that there wasn't violence and abuse occurring, because we 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.040 know that there are many barriers again in the way 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:52.440 of people reporting to police, particularly for migrant and refugee women, 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.439 when they might be language barriers, their visa status might 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:59.440 be dependent on their partner, and they might be fearful 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:04.920 of not being believed. First Nations women are fearful that 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.600 of chop protective services, and then if they make reports 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.440 that their children could be removed from their care, or 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:16.679 they might also be fearful about backlash within their community 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:20.360 if they report, or fearful that if their partner is 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.760 locked up that they are going to become another debt 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.920 in custody. So in a system that has so many 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.320 challenges like that that get in the way of reporting 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:32.960 to police, it's really crucial that we do investigate cases 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:38.440 thoroughly and not assume that because of police report hasn't 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.959 been made that the abuse kind of been that bad. 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:45.760 Yeah, well, it's a majority, isn't it. Really my understanding 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:49.880 the majority of people in domestic violence situations don't actually 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:50.760 report it to police. 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:54.640 Yeah. Yeah, despite the fact that we've had massive increases 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.640 in reports to police. You know, it's hard to believe 0:12:57.720 --> 0:12:59.559 that a f few years ago, domestic in the family 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:03.960 violence wasn't a crime. And it's been this year in 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.120 twenty twenty four that we've celebrated the establishment of the 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:11.319 first women's refuge that was established Elsie's Place, in nineteen 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:15.160 seventy four, So we really have come a huge way 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:19.439 in just fifty years. It is hard to realize how 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:22.880 far we still have to go. But we shouldn't assume 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.280 that more people are being abusive now than in the 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:30.280 past just because reporting rates are increasing. Sometimes reporting rates 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.080 are increasing because people know that help is available, and 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:35.080 that's a good thing if people are reaching out for 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:36.640 help sooner rather than later. 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:40.400 Yes, I don't think there's any well, there might be, 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:44.920 but certainly in my reviewing of figures and things like that, 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:47.320 it's not this idea that all of a sudden people 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:50.160 are becoming abusive. As you say, it's only been fifty 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:54.560 years where it's considered a crime and that still baffles me. 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:57.360 And the fact that you still have the majority not 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:02.520 reporting it. That is what are currently the biggest challenges. 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:05.559 For example, I understand this happened in Wa. There was 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:10.040 footage of some of a woman being hit and battered 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:13.480 by her partner at the time, but she wouldn't sign 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.280 a statement because obviously she was fitful, right, even though 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.560 there was proof. But it has to happen, right that 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.400 they have to actually sign off on it. It can't 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:29.600 just be reported or reflected if they don't agree to 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:30.360 sign a statement. 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.640 These are some of the challenges that we face because 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:38.640 the legislation is different from one state and territory to another. 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:41.920 So in New South Wales where I'm faced, for example, 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.520 police have a duty of care. If they have a 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.760 duty if they believe that domestic and family violence is occurring, 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.960 they have an obligation to take out an apprehensive domestic 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.720 in family violence order to protect the person who is 0:14:55.800 --> 0:15:01.320 being harmed, regardless of whether the person wants that to 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:03.880 be taken out or not, so that decision is actually 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:06.680 taken out of the victim survivor's hands. That was a 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:10.280 reform that was made quite some time ago because of 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:13.840 the challenges that police were experiencing where they wanted to 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:17.880 take action but victim survivors were fearful that that was 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.680 going to lead to an escalation in abuse. It's in fact, 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:25.800 perhaps somewhat easier now that victim survivors you can say, 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.080 well that that wasn't my call, that was the police's decision. 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:32.360 But still picking up that phone to call police in 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:37.000 the first instance, it used a significant challenge to overcome, 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:40.040 although there are of course other circumstances when other parties 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.680 might hear or see abuse and report to police on 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:44.440 behalf of the victim survivor. 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.000 What are the big things that could happen now do 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:58.120 you think that would help victim survivors? 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.920 The biggest thing that we need is fun. The domestic 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:05.400 and family violence sector has been historically underfunded and under resourced. 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:10.920 The scale and the cost of domestic and family violence 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.080 to our country is estimated to be twenty six billion 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:18.400 dollars per year and commonwealth investment is currently sitting at 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:22.200 about three point four billion. If we're really going to 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:27.240 get serious about preventing violence, it's estimated that responses should 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:31.360 make up nine to twelve percent of the government's expenditure. 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.320 At the moment, it's about three percent of the federal 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:39.080 government's expenditure five percent in New South Wales, so we're 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:44.600 not seeing enough investment in responding to this issue. Prevention 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:48.200 of violence being requires that we invest in primary prevention, 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:52.640 which is stopping it before it starts by changing community attitudes, 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:56.880 and that needs to happen in schools, in workplaces, through 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:02.280 sporting institutions, and through media camps. We also need early 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:06.399 intervention where people who are at risk of experiencing, for 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:12.800 perpetrating violence are supported to change their trajectory. We need 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:17.200 the obvious, which is supports and responses for people who 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:21.200 are experiencing violence or using violence, and we need much 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:26.480 more investment in recovery oriented services. If we are able 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:29.680 to help victim survivors to get their life back on track, 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.160 if we can make sure they have housing, support them 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:37.160 back into employment, and ensure that they and their children 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:41.479 have the therapeutic supports that they need, then investing in 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:44.520 that in the short term is actually going to save costs. 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.399 In the long term, it's also going to mean that 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:52.760 we limit the intergenerational transmission of violence from one generation 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:56.840 to another, because the heartbreaking reality is if a child 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:00.280 or young person is exposed to violence, they are more 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:03.920 likely to go on to be either a victim or 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.800 a perpetrator of violence in the future. And we just 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.439 have to stop that trajectory. But we can't do it 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:12.080 without investment and resources. 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:14.560 What are the latest steps that you can tell me 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.160 in relation to just any that you might know offhand, 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:21.159 just to give people a bit of perspective on how 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:22.199 prevalent it is. 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:26.720 Yeah, we know that it's roughly one in four women 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:30.399 who will experience domestic and family violence over the course 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:35.159 of their lifetime, and the Australian Child Male Treatment study 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:40.359 recently released some really concerning stats around the high rates 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:44.960 of children and young people reporting that they're experiencing domestic 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:49.399 and family violence in their childhood as well. So we 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:53.400 do know that this is a prevalent issue and it 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:57.200 does need a better response. We also need to be 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:01.840 doing better in collecting data. We need more consistent and 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:06.040 accurate reporting on domestic and family violence so that we 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:09.760 can understand the patterns and identify those key moments where 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:10.960 we can intervene. 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:14.840 But as you mentioned, it is a case that I 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.840 mean seems to be unanimous across everyone I speak to 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.080 in the industry that the leaving part is certainly the 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:27.760 most dangerous time for a victim. Speaking of that, you've 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.080 had a chance, hopefully to catch up a little bit 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.640 with Amy Wensley's so just looking at it just your 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:36.919 overall sort of perspective. What were your thoughts as you 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:39.119 were listening to Amy's story. 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:42.440 We're not in a position to comment on specific cases, 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.520 but I guess generally speaking out of you, is that 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:49.280 all cases where someone has died need to be treated 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:55.439 seriously and investigated thoroughly. We saw in Amy's case that 0:19:55.560 --> 0:20:01.119 she was taking steps to if the home where the 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:04.960 abuse was happening, whether that would have been leaving for 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:09.280 good or leaving for a time, it does fit that 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.520 profile where we see that risk escalates when victim survivors 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:20.119 attempt to leave, and we know that police need to 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:22.760 consider whether domestic and family violence is part of the 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.720 picture in each and every call out that they attend, 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:28.480 even if there hasn't been a history of reporting to 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:32.280 police in the past. The other thing we need is 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:37.720 for victim survivors to be believed. You know, too often 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:40.639 we hear victim survivors tell us that they tried to 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:44.879 disclose what they're experiencing, but they weren't believed. And we 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:48.119 know that that happens more often for First Nations women 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:51.560 and for migrant and refugee people. So that's another thing 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:52.920 that we need to get rap. 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:56.560 What about victim blaming in these sorts of situations. 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.760 Have you come across that, Yeah, we kind of have 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:02.560 a for that in the domestic and family for sector. 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:08.680 It's called misidentification when the victim survivor is falsely identified 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:13.240 as the perpetrator. And this really requires that we have 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:18.000 a better understanding of how people who have experienced trauma 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:23.280 may behave. Sometimes we have this view of what a 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:28.560 typical victim might look like, someone who's downtrodden, who is passive, 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:31.920 who you know, just curls up in a ball, and 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:35.560 that's not always the case. There are times when a 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:39.719 victim survivor may be angry and frustrated at the abuse 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:42.159 that they're experiencing or the fact that the system is 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:47.520 failing to protect them. They might be distressed or aggressive 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:53.400 when first responders, including police, attend a call out. Meanwhile, 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:56.919 there are cases where the person who is causing harm 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:00.960 might be cool, calm and collected and carries and it's 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:05.720 in those circumstances when women are more likely to not 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:10.959 be believed. It's much more likely to occur when people 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:15.320 are first nations because we have systemic racism and discrimination 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:21.080 that continues to occur, and it's more likely to happen 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:26.800 when there's language barriers as well. For understandable reasons, police 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:30.080 have such a difficult job. They're called out in the 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:33.680 heat of the moment, and we know that domestic and 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:37.040 family violence makes up such a significant portion of the 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:39.800 work that they do day in and day out. They're 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:42.480 having to make split second decisions. They're having to make 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:46.679 judgments based on the evidence before them in that particular moment. 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:51.720 They don't always have the history. And in New South 0:22:51.760 --> 0:22:57.960 Wales in this year there's been the criminalization of coercive control, 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:01.520 so coercive control is now considered a crime here in 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:05.320 the South Wares, which previously wasn't the case. Similar legislation 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:09.680 is being implemented in Queensland and considered in South Australia, 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:14.040 and this legislation could be a game changer because it 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:18.240 means that police are required to look at a pattern 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:22.399 of behavior. They're not just looking at what has happened 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:24.520 in that one incident from the day when they were 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:27.920 called out, but they're actually required to investigate has there 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:31.760 been a history of abuse and control in the past. 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:37.240 Is a victim survivor being restricted from having financial independence? 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:41.080 Are they being restricted from practicing their religion or their culture? 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:47.960 Are they being isolated from friends and family and required 0:23:48.040 --> 0:23:51.400 to do things the way that the perpetrator wants them 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:55.679 to be done because of the fear and threat of violence. 0:23:56.280 --> 0:24:01.000 It's our hope that if police can start to investigate 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:05.120 patterns of behavior that occur over time, that we're going 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:09.640 to get better at identifying when couci control is happening, 0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:13.800 and better at a realizing that just because a victim 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:18.399 survivor might be aggressive or might respond with force to 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:22.480 the abuse that they're experiencing in one incident, it doesn't 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:27.160 necessarily mean that they're the perpetrator and they are still 0:24:27.200 --> 0:24:30.879 the person most in need of protection, even though they 0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:33.359 might not appeal like the ideal of victim on that 0:24:33.400 --> 0:24:33.840 one day. 0:24:34.480 --> 0:24:37.159 I guess that's with everything anyway. I mean, that's the 0:24:37.200 --> 0:24:39.840 way these things work. And particularly if you get to 0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:43.040 a point whether survive well, there is no survivor that 0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:46.520 they're not there to defend themselves. That would be more problematic, 0:24:46.520 --> 0:24:46.960 wouldn't it. 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:52.359 Yeah, certainly, And in circumstances like that, ideally there would 0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:59.520 be investigations undertaken and a number of people interviewed in 0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:03.280 order to gather a full picture of what had happened 0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:05.399 in the lead up to that event. 0:25:05.880 --> 0:25:08.680 That's the thing. It would take days to be able 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:11.920 to do that properly. This is something that when you're 0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:17.040 talking about the First Nations and people from different backgrounds, 0:25:17.480 --> 0:25:20.280 I've definitely seen a lot where it is so like 0:25:20.480 --> 0:25:23.000 just with reports that are online that is so much 0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:25.800 more problematic, isn't it to a massive extent? 0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:26.520 Yeah? 0:25:26.680 --> 0:25:31.720 Yeah, we know that Aboriginal women are much more likely 0:25:31.960 --> 0:25:35.080 to be killed due to domestic and family silence. The 0:25:35.280 --> 0:25:39.520 rate of Aboriginal women being hospitalized is forty times the 0:25:39.640 --> 0:25:44.600