1
00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:03,560
Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

2
00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:08,560
Speaker 1: Bunjelung Kalgotin woman from Gadighal Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

3
00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,799
Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

4
00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,400
Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

5
00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,319
Speaker 1: Strain island and nations. We pay our respects to the

6
00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,120
Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

7
00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,000
Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily Ods. It's Tuesday,

8
00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:33,080
Speaker 2: the seventeenth of October. I'm tda's political journalist Tom Crowley.

9
00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,400
Speaker 3: I'm Billy fitz Simons. I am the editor here at

10
00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:36,080
Speaker 3: the Daily Oz.

11
00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:37,920
Speaker 2: Good to be with you, Billy. At the start of

12
00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,839
Speaker 2: the month, an ongoing conflict in the Middle East boiled

13
00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,479
Speaker 2: over when Hamas launched a surprise, wide scale attack on Israel.

14
00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,159
Speaker 2: In response, Israel declared war on Jumas, saying the military

15
00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,960
Speaker 2: would use all of its strength to destroy Hamas's capabilities.

16
00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,120
Speaker 2: As you listen this morning, Israel is preparing for a

17
00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,080
Speaker 2: ground invasion of Gaza. We'll unpack all of that in

18
00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,000
Speaker 2: the deep Dive. But first, Billy, what's making headlines this Nay.

19
00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,760
Speaker 3: Prime Minister Anthony Albanesi and Opposition leader Peter Dudden have

20
00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,399
Speaker 3: addressed the failed Voice referendum proposal in Parliament. On the

21
00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,880
Speaker 3: first sitting day after the referendum. Duddin called for Albanesi

22
00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,720
Speaker 3: to apologize to the Australian public for going ahead with

23
00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:20,000
Speaker 3: a referendum, which the opposition described as divisive and poorly managed.

24
00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,280
Speaker 3: The Prime Minister said no Australian believed the status quo

25
00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,120
Speaker 3: for First Nations people were satisfactory, and called for a

26
00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,280
Speaker 3: much greater national awareness from the referendum to be turned

27
00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,320
Speaker 3: into a national purpose to find the answers.

28
00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,920
Speaker 2: Hannah raffiti. Maybe Clarke will become New Zealand's youngest MP

29
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,000
Speaker 2: in one hundred and seventy years. The twenty one year

30
00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,000
Speaker 2: old received more votes than her opponent, Nanayamahuta, the longest

31
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,200
Speaker 2: serving female MP and the now former Minister of Foreign

32
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:47,240
Speaker 2: Affairs of New Zealand.

33
00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:50,880
Speaker 3: A sixty six year old man has died after being

34
00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,280
Speaker 3: attacked by his dog in his Southern Tasmanian home. The

35
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,520
Speaker 3: man was attacked on Sunday night and suffered serious injuries

36
00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,960
Speaker 3: to his lower legs. A sixty four year old woman

37
00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,280
Speaker 3: was also hospitalized with serious injuries to her lower limbs.

38
00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,680
Speaker 3: The dog was euthanized by a local council officer.

39
00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,560
Speaker 2: And the good news. The A League women's season, launched

40
00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:14,359
Speaker 2: over the weekend was record breaking attendance. Four hundred and

41
00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,200
Speaker 2: seventy one people were at Alion Stadium for Sydney FC

42
00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,720
Speaker 2: and the Western Sydney Wanderers first game of the season,

43
00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,080
Speaker 2: up from the previous record of just under ten thousand

44
00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,040
Speaker 2: at a domestic women's football match, capitalizing on the success

45
00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:26,680
Speaker 2: of the matildens.

46
00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,000
Speaker 3: Okay, Tom, So, you have been on the pod for

47
00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,480
Speaker 3: most of last week talking about the Voice referendum, but

48
00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,840
Speaker 3: during that time, there's been another major news story unfolding

49
00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,560
Speaker 3: on the other side of the world in Israel and Gaza,

50
00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,200
Speaker 3: and that's what you're going to take us through today. Now,

51
00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,800
Speaker 3: the first thing to say is that behind this story

52
00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,880
Speaker 3: sits an enormous amount of history and context, and we

53
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,240
Speaker 3: have to acknowledge that we know there are a lot

54
00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,359
Speaker 3: of sensitivities here, and we also want to acknowledge that

55
00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,080
Speaker 3: we know there's no way we can ever explain what

56
00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,919
Speaker 3: is happening here in a fifteen podcast. But Tom, let's

57
00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,839
Speaker 3: start with the news. What has happened in the past week.

58
00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,480
Speaker 2: Thanks Billy. So the story begins last Saturday, when the

59
00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,480
Speaker 2: organization Harmass launched a surprise attack from Gaza into Israel.

60
00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,680
Speaker 2: That attack killed over one thousand people, many of them civilians.

61
00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,000
Speaker 2: Israeli military was caught off guard, but it responded by

62
00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:22,320
Speaker 2: declaring war and what has followed is the most intense

63
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,000
Speaker 2: week of conflict in the region in decades.

64
00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,600
Speaker 3: And we want to explain exactly what happened in the

65
00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,320
Speaker 3: past week in more detail, but I think before we

66
00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,600
Speaker 3: do that, let's take a step back. So Gaza, Israel,

67
00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,160
Speaker 3: there will be a few places and groups there that

68
00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,600
Speaker 3: some listeners may know very little about. What do we

69
00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,600
Speaker 3: need to know about this part of the world to

70
00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,160
Speaker 3: understand this unfolding story, Tom.

71
00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,240
Speaker 2: There's a lot, and this is where it could easily

72
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,200
Speaker 2: become a ten hour podcast and not a ten minute one,

73
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,840
Speaker 2: And I encourage people to read and listen much more

74
00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:55,640
Speaker 2: widely that what we're able to get through today. There

75
00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,360
Speaker 2: is certainly a lot to understand here. But I'll try

76
00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,920
Speaker 2: to outline maybe just a very basic history of the

77
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,120
Speaker 2: Israel Palestine conflict, and I'll begin, I think with how

78
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,880
Speaker 2: the state of Israel, a modern state of Israel in

79
00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,880
Speaker 2: the form that we know it today was established. So

80
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,040
Speaker 2: the idea of establishing a modern state of Israel, a

81
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,640
Speaker 2: Jewish state in the religious homeland in the Middle East,

82
00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,760
Speaker 2: really emerges in the nineteen hundreds. It's an idea that

83
00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,520
Speaker 2: builds momentum in the early nineteen hundreds, but then in

84
00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:28,280
Speaker 2: nineteen forty eight it really gets adopted by the international community.

85
00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:30,560
Speaker 2: It gets the support of the United Nations in the

86
00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,240
Speaker 2: aftermath of the Holocaust, in the aftermath of World War II,

87
00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,960
Speaker 2: the United Nations throws its support behind that idea. Now,

88
00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,600
Speaker 2: the area that we're talking about here, for the state

89
00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,000
Speaker 2: of Israel in the Middle East, was called Palestine and

90
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,520
Speaker 2: was already home to the Palestinian people. And so what

91
00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,000
Speaker 2: the United Nations came up with in nineteen forty eight

92
00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,719
Speaker 2: was the idea that there should be two states, Israel

93
00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,920
Speaker 2: and Palestine, and it drew up a map of where

94
00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,960
Speaker 2: those two states should be within this area of territory.

95
00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,160
Speaker 2: This was challenged and contested very heavily. It led to

96
00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,320
Speaker 2: many very deadly wars in the region. Many Palestinians were

97
00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,360
Speaker 2: displaced in those wars, and what followed was a decade's

98
00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,200
Speaker 2: long territorial dispute which is still unresolved. It's still the

99
00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,960
Speaker 2: conflict that we're talking about today. Most of the world,

100
00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:19,039
Speaker 2: including Australia, the UN remain committed to this idea of

101
00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,960
Speaker 2: a two state solution of both an Israel and a Palestine,

102
00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,880
Speaker 2: but no such solution has been reached. We don't have

103
00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:26,880
Speaker 2: time to go into all the details of the many

104
00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,400
Speaker 2: wars that follow from nineteen forty eight to the present day,

105
00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:32,680
Speaker 2: or the many different changes that there are to the

106
00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,120
Speaker 2: map over that period. Again, I encourage people to read

107
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,479
Speaker 2: more widely if it's something that you're interested in, But

108
00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:39,960
Speaker 2: to understand this week's news, I think we sort of

109
00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,880
Speaker 2: fast forward and zoom into a particularly contentious area of

110
00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:44,680
Speaker 2: territory which is the focus of the story in the

111
00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,560
Speaker 2: last couple of weeks, and that's the territory of Gaza.

112
00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:49,800
Speaker 2: So Gaza was not part of the land that was

113
00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 2: initially mapped out as part of Israel by the United Nations,

114
00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,279
Speaker 2: but from nineteen sixty seven, following one of the wars

115
00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:01,760
Speaker 2: that I mentioned, it was occupied by Israel, and that occupation,

116
00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,120
Speaker 2: as well as the occupation of another territory called the

117
00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,480
Speaker 2: West Bank, was widely viewed, including by Australia as a

118
00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,799
Speaker 2: violation of international law by Israel. Then in two thousand

119
00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,960
Speaker 2: and five, Israel removed its troops and settlers from inside

120
00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:19,799
Speaker 2: Gaza and moved outside. A short time afterwards, Gaza comes

121
00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:24,279
Speaker 2: under control of the organization Hamas. Hamas is classified by

122
00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,839
Speaker 2: Israel as a terrorist organization, and that classification also gets

123
00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,360
Speaker 2: adopted by the US, Australia and many other countries. It

124
00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,240
Speaker 2: gets weapons supplied to it by Iran, and it's dedicated

125
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,320
Speaker 2: essentially to the view that the state of Israel is

126
00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,840
Speaker 2: illegal and illegitimate and seeks the destruction of Israel. So

127
00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:44,919
Speaker 2: Israel pulls out of Gaza, but surrounds it with a blockade,

128
00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,719
Speaker 2: a fence basically around the parts of Gaza that border Israel,

129
00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,560
Speaker 2: which is most of it. So Israel's fence, which exists

130
00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,120
Speaker 2: to this day, means that it controls largely who goes

131
00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,839
Speaker 2: in and out. Residents inside Gaza mostly can't leave into Israel.

132
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,680
Speaker 2: There's also a small section of the border the borders Egypt,

133
00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,600
Speaker 2: and Egypt also keeps that shut for its own reasons,

134
00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,640
Speaker 2: and so inside Gaza you have a population that is

135
00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,160
Speaker 2: basically unable to leave. It's one of the most densely

136
00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,880
Speaker 2: populated places on the planet. You have two million people

137
00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,720
Speaker 2: crammed into I guess to picture it. It's a small

138
00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:20,960
Speaker 2: coastal strip of land. I think it goes only for about,

139
00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,720
Speaker 2: you know, sort of thirty forty kilometers. A lot of

140
00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,800
Speaker 2: the people in there are displaced people displaced Palestinians in

141
00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:31,320
Speaker 2: wars of decades previous. And there's significant poverty in there.

142
00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,240
Speaker 2: About eighty percent of the population of Gaza relies on

143
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:35,280
Speaker 2: humanitarian aid.

144
00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,040
Speaker 3: Okay, So let's return to last Saturday's attack. So how

145
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:40,200
Speaker 3: did this attack happen?

146
00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,640
Speaker 2: So the answer effectively is that her mass fighters broke

147
00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,040
Speaker 2: through the fence. So it began with a barrage of

148
00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,920
Speaker 2: missiles from Hamas fired into Israel. But then amid the

149
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,920
Speaker 2: chaos created by those missiles, you had about a thousand

150
00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,360
Speaker 2: fighters who broke through the fence and into Israel. It

151
00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,160
Speaker 2: took everybody by surprise, certainly took the Israeli military by surprise.

152
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,200
Speaker 2: So these fighters running to Israel and commit murder on

153
00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,480
Speaker 2: mass basically, and I should warn people at this stage

154
00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,400
Speaker 2: that some of the things that I'm about to describe

155
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,240
Speaker 2: it could be quite distressing. In total, more than one

156
00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,600
Speaker 2: thousand people are killed. Many of those are civilians, including

157
00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,720
Speaker 2: children and babies, the elderly. You have people taken out

158
00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,240
Speaker 2: of their homes in villages, there are attendees at a

159
00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,320
Speaker 2: music festival or at least two hundred and sixty young

160
00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:26,520
Speaker 2: people were killed. And these killings carried out in a

161
00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,400
Speaker 2: manner that's quite chilling and public and graphics. So he

162
00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:31,400
Speaker 2: must films a lot of the attacks, and a lot

163
00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,240
Speaker 2: of that footage has been released and circulated online. And

164
00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,679
Speaker 2: there are hostages taken. We now know one hundred and

165
00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,240
Speaker 2: ninety nine people were taken back into gazaus hostages again,

166
00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,240
Speaker 2: including civilians young and old, including some foreign nationals too,

167
00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:46,360
Speaker 2: and that's where they remain.

168
00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:52,199
Speaker 3: So Hermas launches this wide scale surprise attack on Israel.

169
00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,920
Speaker 3: They didn't see it coming. How does Israel respond?

170
00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,520
Speaker 2: Israel responds by declaring war almost immediately. It's stayed at

171
00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:04,840
Speaker 2: aim is to completely eliminate Humas. It sends a heavy

172
00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,240
Speaker 2: barrage of missiles into Gaza. It hits all sorts of

173
00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:12,440
Speaker 2: things there, including residential buildings. So far, well over two

174
00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,720
Speaker 2: thousand people, again including many civilians, have been killed in

175
00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:20,040
Speaker 2: Gaza by that bombardment. Israel also then announces what it

176
00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:25,480
Speaker 2: calls a siege, so it cuts off the supply of food, water, power, fuel,

177
00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,480
Speaker 2: medicine into Gaza. Again, remembering that Israel's fence arrangements mean

178
00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,720
Speaker 2: that it controls a large part of that border. There's

179
00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,120
Speaker 2: only a small section of borders Egypt in Israel is

180
00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,199
Speaker 2: bombing that section, so it maintains that siege. In the

181
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,480
Speaker 2: last twenty four hours, Israel says it has recommenced the

182
00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,440
Speaker 2: water supply to the southern part of Gaza, but for

183
00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,319
Speaker 2: several days that siege continued, and at least in part

184
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,160
Speaker 2: it continues, and then Israel also announced a ground invasion,

185
00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,000
Speaker 2: so all out war again. The nature of both the

186
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,400
Speaker 2: bombardment and the ground invasion is that there are a

187
00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,079
Speaker 2: number of civilians in Gaza, two million people who live

188
00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,480
Speaker 2: here who are caught up in this. On Friday, in

189
00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,640
Speaker 2: anticipation of its ground invasion, Israel sends a message telling

190
00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,520
Speaker 2: people who live in the northern half of Gaza to

191
00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,319
Speaker 2: relocate south to get out of harm's way because Israel

192
00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,040
Speaker 2: is planning to begin its attack in the north. You

193
00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,240
Speaker 2: have Hamas telling people to ignore that order. There's general confusion.

194
00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,520
Speaker 2: Some people leave, some people don't but regardless, the UN,

195
00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,920
Speaker 2: which has ground staff humanitarian staff in Gaza, says this

196
00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:31,040
Speaker 2: order is impossible to follow. You have one million people

197
00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,040
Speaker 2: in the northern half of Gaza, and the US says

198
00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,360
Speaker 2: you can't physically move them all that quickly. You've got

199
00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,679
Speaker 2: hospital patients, old people who can't move, there's no fuel

200
00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,319
Speaker 2: for many people's cars, you have hospitals overflowing. The south

201
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,520
Speaker 2: itself is already crowded and doesn't necessarily have the capacity

202
00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,600
Speaker 2: to take all of these people. There's also questions over

203
00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,200
Speaker 2: whether the south of Gaza itself is safe. There have

204
00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,800
Speaker 2: been some reports of people being killed while they're moving

205
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,199
Speaker 2: from north to south. But Israel's given that directive. It

206
00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,720
Speaker 2: extended the original deadline that it's set for that directive

207
00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,160
Speaker 2: and said it was giving people more time to relocate

208
00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,320
Speaker 2: to the south. It's clear, though, in general, all throughout Gaza,

209
00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:08,920
Speaker 2: in a very small section of land, there are a

210
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,160
Speaker 2: very large number of civilians who will be caught up

211
00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,280
Speaker 2: in any attack. Of course, things change very quickly, and

212
00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,120
Speaker 2: by the time you listen to this, it's possible there

213
00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,520
Speaker 2: will have been further development since the time that we recorded.

214
00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,959
Speaker 3: So how has the international community responded.

215
00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,520
Speaker 2: To this, I think with horror all around. It's been

216
00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,800
Speaker 2: a very upsetting development in general in the last fortnight.

217
00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:29,960
Speaker 2: I guess if I start with the West, led by

218
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,680
Speaker 2: the US, the first thing that many countries did, including

219
00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,959
Speaker 2: the US and Australia, is condemn in the strongest terms

220
00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,880
Speaker 2: the acts of terrorism by Hamas. Australia and the US

221
00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:44,560
Speaker 2: allies of Israel, and most Western countries have recognized Israel's

222
00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,560
Speaker 2: right to defend itself. So self defense is generally recognized

223
00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,680
Speaker 2: under international law as a legitimate reason to declare war,

224
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,760
Speaker 2: and the view expressed by Australia and the US is

225
00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,320
Speaker 2: that Israel's declaration of war is legitimate. In fact, the US,

226
00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,400
Speaker 2: as in the past, provided milky support for Israel and

227
00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,120
Speaker 2: its pledge to provide more of that support in the

228
00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,960
Speaker 2: fight against Tamas. So that's been a big part of

229
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,800
Speaker 2: the response in the West. But there is another element

230
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,760
Speaker 2: to the international response, including from the US and Australia,

231
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,760
Speaker 2: and that's focused on the idea of the rules of

232
00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:21,599
Speaker 2: war war crimes. So war has rules as are recognized

233
00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:26,760
Speaker 2: under international law for all combatants. And it is firstly

234
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,600
Speaker 2: widely agreed that Hamas's initial attack amounted to a war crime,

235
00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,760
Speaker 2: killings of civilians, the deliberate targeting, but countries like Australia

236
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,040
Speaker 2: who recognize Israel's right to declare war, have also cautioned

237
00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:43,000
Speaker 2: Israel to make sure that in its response it abides by.

238
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:43,600
Speaker 1: The rules of war.

239
00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:45,920
Speaker 3: Can you explain what actually is an example of a

240
00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:46,480
Speaker 3: war crime.

241
00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:48,360
Speaker 2: There are a few, I think the main one in

242
00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,400
Speaker 2: various forms is you can't deliberately target civilians or do

243
00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,720
Speaker 2: things deliberately that harm civilians. Basically, a lot of the

244
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,040
Speaker 2: rules of war are around protecting civilians who are not

245
00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,040
Speaker 2: combatants in the war from gettingrought up in it. And

246
00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,120
Speaker 2: so again, I guess clearly, when you look at the

247
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,320
Speaker 2: initial act by Hamas, international leaders have described that attack

248
00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,160
Speaker 2: on civilians as a war crime, but also it can

249
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,520
Speaker 2: extend to acts like depriving civilians of food, water, power,

250
00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:19,040
Speaker 2: and essentials. And that's where concern has emerged from figures

251
00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,439
Speaker 2: at the UN and from others, including in Europe, about

252
00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,360
Speaker 2: the possibility that Israel has committed or maybe about to

253
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,400
Speaker 2: commit war crimes of its own. In response to Hamasa's attack,

254
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,800
Speaker 2: Israel itself says it is staying within the rules. It

255
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,240
Speaker 2: points to the warnings that it issued to civilians to

256
00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,080
Speaker 2: move from the north to the south to stay out

257
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,480
Speaker 2: of harm's way as an effort that it was making

258
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,320
Speaker 2: to protect civilians. What we do know in general is

259
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,320
Speaker 2: that thousands of people have been killed, including a very

260
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,719
Speaker 2: large number of civilians. So more than fourteen hundred Israelis,

261
00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:52,800
Speaker 2: including very many innocent civilians, were killed by Hamas. Thousands

262
00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,920
Speaker 2: of Gazans, innocent civilians have been killed already in the response,

263
00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,840
Speaker 2: and it seems sadly inevitable as this conflict continues to escalate,

264
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,920
Speaker 2: that thousands upon thousands more civilians will die.

265
00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,160
Speaker 3: So this seems like a really large question what happens next?

266
00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think anybody knows. No one really saw

267
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,360
Speaker 2: this attack coming at the moment that it did, and

268
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,080
Speaker 2: so they were only really at the beginning of thinking

269
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,760
Speaker 2: about what might happen next. There are so many ways

270
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,640
Speaker 2: that this could escalate even further. So, for one thing,

271
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,600
Speaker 2: and one thing that we're watching very carefully, is that

272
00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,160
Speaker 2: neighbors could get involved. So the extremist group Hezbollah, based

273
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,160
Speaker 2: in Lebanon, there's been some fear that it might join

274
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,280
Speaker 2: Hamas in the fighting against Israel. There have been some

275
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,640
Speaker 2: exchanges of fire between Israel and Syria. There's a big

276
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,520
Speaker 2: watch on Iran, which has heaped praise on Jumas, praise

277
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,800
Speaker 2: the attack, and there's great concern about whether Iran might

278
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,800
Speaker 2: join a war. If Israel were to enter Gaza, that

279
00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,200
Speaker 2: would make it a very big international incident. Really, any

280
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,720
Speaker 2: of these escalations would kick it up another notch, and

281
00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,160
Speaker 2: it could even at that point suck in the United States,

282
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,560
Speaker 2: who already increased their military presence in the area. They

283
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,280
Speaker 2: described that as a deterrence, but there's that looming possibility

284
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:16,800
Speaker 2: as well. So this thing could get a whole lot

285
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,760
Speaker 2: bigger and fast. But even just focusing on Israel and Hamas,

286
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,360
Speaker 2: it's really hard to see how this ends quickly and

287
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,280
Speaker 2: without an enormous loss of life.

288
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,680
Speaker 3: Tom thank you so much for taking us through that

289
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,560
Speaker 3: very complex topic, and Salmon Zara will be back tomorrow.