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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. Now, you can

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Speaker 1: email your parenting questions to podcasts. That's podcasts with an

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Speaker 1: ss at happy families dot com dot AU. That's podcasts

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Speaker 1: at happy families dot com dot A. You good. This

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Speaker 1: is doctor Justin Colson. I'm here with Kylie, my wife,

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Speaker 1: mum to our six kids, and Kylie. Today's conversation is

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Speaker 1: all about kids and sharing. This is a little kid's

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Speaker 1: conversation parents with kids that just don't want to share

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Speaker 1: with their siblings because it's mine. Every time I hear

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Speaker 1: that word, I think of the crabs in finding Nemo

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Speaker 1: My Mine. I found a quote though, that goes so

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Speaker 1: beautifully with the question I'm about to read. This was

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Speaker 1: just a funny meme that showed up and it said,

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Speaker 1: I can't believe I shared my body with a child

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Speaker 1: that won't even share their eminems with me. Kids hate sharing,

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Speaker 1: sometimes some kids love it, but most kids really struggle

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Speaker 1: to share. This is the question that we've received from

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Speaker 1: a long time listener of the podcast, who says, Hi,

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Speaker 1: Justin and Kuiley, I'm a long time listener of the

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Speaker 1: podcast and I've gone back listening through from the beginning.

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Speaker 1: I need help with sharing. When it comes to more

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Speaker 1: of a shared toy not owned by one of our kids,

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Speaker 1: I say, okay, you both want the ball, for example,

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Speaker 1: how can we solve this so you both get a turn,

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Speaker 1: and then I'll offer some solutions. But our eight year

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Speaker 1: old daughter will not let her four year old brother

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Speaker 1: even touch anything of hers. It's a big battle in

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Speaker 1: our home. Long ago, I suggested she could choose some

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Speaker 1: of her favorite toys that are special to her, and

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't expect her to share those if she didn't

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Speaker 1: want to. But it's gone well beyond that now, and

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Speaker 1: almost anything her brother picks up, she claims it's my

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Speaker 1: special toy and so he can't touch anything of hers.

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Speaker 1: I've tried sitting down with her at a time when

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Speaker 1: she's calm to talk about her feelings and also what

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Speaker 1: she feels or thinks about when she sees her brother

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Speaker 1: pick something up of hers, but she isn't too sure.

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Speaker 1: It's a daily fight in our home, and she absolutely

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Speaker 1: bursts out, yelling at him, snatches, calls him names, and more.

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Speaker 1: It's awful to watch because our four year old is

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Speaker 1: so gentle and has always been so accommodating and loves

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Speaker 1: sharing with her. But now as he's getting older and

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Speaker 1: seeing his sister repeatedly not share, he is now starting

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Speaker 1: to say no to her as he has learned that

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Speaker 1: behavior from her, And it's so sad to see. I'm

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Speaker 1: at a loss of what to do anymore.

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Speaker 2: I feel like every time we have one of these

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Speaker 2: dilemmas we talk about how this is the bane of

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Speaker 2: any parents' life, that this is the bane, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It's so hard when you're dealing with kids that just

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Speaker 2: won't share.

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Speaker 1: And sharing that is so much. I mean, it's so

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Speaker 1: important from a social perspective. I would be really interested

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Speaker 1: to know if Miss eight is sharing well with her

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Speaker 1: friends at school or when friends come over to play.

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Speaker 1: How does she go with sharing then? Or is it

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Speaker 1: just a brother thing? Or is it well?

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Speaker 2: And is it just toys or is there an issue

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Speaker 2: with sharing mom and dad? Is there an issue with

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Speaker 2: sharing food?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: Is it just a toy thing?

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Speaker 1: A quick tangent? I got to share this. Whenever the

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Speaker 1: kids have got a treat or something that I want

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Speaker 1: to have a taste of, I'll ask for a sip

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Speaker 1: or I'll ask for a bite, and it's the dad tax, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, every dad has the right to enforce the

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Speaker 1: dad tax on their kids and the yummy food that

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Speaker 1: they've got. But I've got this thing with the kids

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Speaker 1: where I want them to share willingly. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I should do this. I actually don't know if

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Speaker 1: there's a good science or not. But when I start said,

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Speaker 1: let's say I'm having a drink, They've got a milkshake,

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Speaker 1: and I start to drink the milkshake. As I'm drinking

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Speaker 1: that milkshake, I'll have a couple of big SIPs, okay,

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Speaker 1: Or if it's an ice cream, I'll have a half

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Speaker 1: decent sized bite. And if they start to react and protest,

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Speaker 1: if they start saying no, no, no, that's enough, that's enough,

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Speaker 1: I look at them and say, the more you are

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Speaker 1: reluctant to share, the more I take. But the more

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Speaker 1: willing you are to share, the less I have. And

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Speaker 1: it stops them winging instantly. And it also serves the

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Speaker 1: wonderful jewel purpose of I get to have as much

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Speaker 1: as I want in peace, but I give it back

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Speaker 1: to them and say, because you didn't win so much,

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Speaker 1: I didn't have too much.

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Speaker 2: You're a classic, and they're good, you're so funny.

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Speaker 1: I think that we should teach the four year old

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Speaker 1: in this family to do that. I'm not sure that's

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Speaker 1: going to get us where we need to go, but

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Speaker 1: by I emphasized, it's so important from a pro social

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Speaker 1: point of view. Kids learn cooperation through sharing, they learn

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Speaker 1: how to negotiate, they learn about fairness, and we all

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Speaker 1: know that kids fairness antenna are well, well, they're right

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Speaker 1: up all the time, right, they really notice what's fair

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Speaker 1: and what's not.

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Speaker 2: I know when we were struggling with some similar challenges

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Speaker 2: with our kids when they were younger, your mum would

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Speaker 2: talk about the fact that our kids were struggling with

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Speaker 2: a scarcity mentality there wasn't enough of anything, and helping

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Speaker 2: them to feel more abundant.

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Speaker 1: By buying three of everything. Just kidding, we didn't do that,

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Speaker 1: but helping them feel more abundant.

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Speaker 2: Would make a difference.

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Speaker 1: So that's I haven't told you where we're going or

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Speaker 1: where I'm going in this conversation, but that's kind of

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Speaker 1: I wasn't going to use my mum's words. Just don't

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Speaker 1: feel good where my mum comes out.

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Speaker 2: Of my larynx, but she came out of mind instead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, from a psychological point of view, there is something

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Speaker 1: to that. But I'm going to explain how that works

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Speaker 1: and why. Because it's one thing to say they've got

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Speaker 1: a scarce of the mentality. They need an abundance mentality.

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Speaker 1: It's one thing to say that, but it's another thing

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Speaker 1: to actually operationalize it, to sit in the living room

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Speaker 1: with your kids and work out how they can have

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Speaker 1: that abundance mentality. A couple of things about sharing that

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Speaker 1: are important to know. When it comes to sharing, we

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Speaker 1: need to have this thing in our brain called theory

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Speaker 1: of mind. Theory of mind means that we have empathy perspective,

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Speaker 1: we can see the world through another person's point of view,

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Speaker 1: and that tends to develop somewhere around about five, although

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Speaker 1: recent research suggests that it could be a little bit later,

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Speaker 1: and if you've got kids who are on the spectrum,

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Speaker 1: then it maybe even later. Again, there's little interest in

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Speaker 1: perspective taking and empathy there. Secondly, siblings fight over scarce resources.

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Speaker 1: If you don't want the kids fighting over resources scarce resources,

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Speaker 1: don't have siblings. It's kind of how it is right

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Speaker 1: if you don't have siblings, they are going to have

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Speaker 1: any sibling fights, it's too late for most families. I guess,

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Speaker 1: like that's what siblings do. They fight over resources, particularly

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Speaker 1: scarce resources. It's all about survival of the fittest, which

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Speaker 1: means that the power dynamics are going to come in.

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Speaker 1: That's my third point. Power dynamics are huge and the

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Speaker 1: big kid will almost always be the one who's pushing.

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Speaker 1: So in this podcast, we're going to spend the next

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Speaker 1: five or six minutes and trying to give families whose

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Speaker 1: kids don't share a quick kickstart with three ideas, maybe

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Speaker 1: four ideas, four ideas that can be helpful. The first

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Speaker 1: of those ideas is teaching our kids' empathy and perspective taking. Now,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like this mum's having a go at that,

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Speaker 1: but not with the tremendous amount of success.

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering whether it's someone on one time with mum

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Speaker 2: or dad. Like special one on one time would be

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Speaker 2: helpful in being able to have those kinds of conversations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the conversation generally would go something like this,

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Speaker 1: especially with younger kids. Hey, I've noticed lately that there's

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Speaker 1: been another big fight about sharing. How does it make

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Speaker 1: our family feel when we fight about this stuff. How

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Speaker 1: does it make your brother feel? How does it make

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Speaker 1: mum feel? How does it make dad feel? How does

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Speaker 1: it make whoever feel? How does it make you feel?

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Speaker 1: And so what we're doing is we're getting the kids

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Speaker 1: to take perspective, we're building empathy. That's precisely the way

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Speaker 1: that we do that. Now. The second idea is one

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Speaker 1: of your favorites, and that is that we have family meetings.

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Speaker 2: And this marries up beautifully with that one on one time.

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Speaker 2: You're able to have those conversations with your child in

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Speaker 2: a more intimate, private setting so they don't feel like

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Speaker 2: they're being attacked publicly. But then when you have those

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Speaker 2: family meetings and you come together as a family, you

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Speaker 2: actually get to talk about what's been going well in

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Speaker 2: the family, and everybody gets to have a say. Even

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Speaker 2: the four year old gets to say what he thinks

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Speaker 2: is great about about your family. It's a really powerful

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Speaker 2: way to build the family up.

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Speaker 1: But then you're to get everyone on the same page.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and then you're able to go into the

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Speaker 2: next part, which is what's not going well And we

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Speaker 2: can acknowledge that we've had a couple of fights this week,

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Speaker 2: and what have they been about sharing?

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Speaker 1: Sharing?

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Speaker 2: And how's it made us feel? And so you're marrying

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Speaker 2: up that private, intimate time together, that conversation into now

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Speaker 2: a more broader conversation as a whole family, and then

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Speaker 2: work on what you will focus on this week.

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Speaker 1: And the third question, what we're going to work on.

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Speaker 1: It's totally reasonable for you as a parent to say,

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Speaker 1: let's focus on sharing this week, and let's make a

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Speaker 1: plan what can we do next time there's a sharing

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Speaker 1: situation that doesn't look like it's going to go quite right.

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Speaker 2: Maybe, instead of around the dinner table where you might

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Speaker 2: talk about gratitude things, you might actually be able to say,

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Speaker 2: who's shared today?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's celebrate our sharing experiences.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So that's a really nice transition into the third thing

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Speaker 1: that I was going to share. I don't believe that

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Speaker 1: I said that, and that is that we need to

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Speaker 1: model sharing. We need to make a big deal out

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Speaker 1: of it. So when we have those dinner time conversations,

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Speaker 1: we all get to talk about, Hey, here's what I

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Speaker 1: did to share today, Here's how sharing made me feel.

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Speaker 1: We actually become a family who talks about sharing and

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Speaker 1: contribution and doing meaningful things to help others. The emphasis

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Speaker 1: on sharing becomes a shared experience. We're literally talking about

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Speaker 1: it and making a big deal. In fact, I would

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Speaker 1: even do this. So I've just found a new drink

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Speaker 1: that I really like. It's this soda water that's infused

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Speaker 1: with this stuff. I don't know what it is, but

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Speaker 1: I pay like two dollars fifty a can when I

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Speaker 1: buy it in bulk, and it's a little bit expensive

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Speaker 1: and a little bit fancy. But I buy a twelve

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Speaker 1: pack every now and again because I'm just so excited

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Speaker 1: to drink my fancy soda water and I like it,

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Speaker 1: and the kids ask for it, like they get so

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Speaker 1: excited because Dad's got a special drink and they want

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Speaker 1: to try it. Now. If I was dealing with an

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Speaker 1: eight year old who didn't like sharing, I would look

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Speaker 1: at them when they asked me, and I would say,

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Speaker 1: of course, because I love sharing. Sharing makes me feel good.

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Speaker 1: How does it make you feel when I share with you?

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Speaker 1: So I would turn every request from my children when

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Speaker 1: they're asking me to share with them into a gentle

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Speaker 1: and fun teaching experience. I wouldn't belabor it, wouldn't overdo it.

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Speaker 1: Wouldn't be lecturing the kids on sharing every time, but

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Speaker 1: modeling it and sharing it. I just think it's a

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Speaker 1: really nice way to have some fun with it and

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Speaker 1: bring the kids in and.

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Speaker 2: You know what, with Christmas just around the corner, I

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Speaker 2: think this is actually a really wonderful opportunity to do

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Speaker 2: some service as a family, to actually share the abundance

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Speaker 2: that you've been blessed with with other people and get

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Speaker 2: your children involved in it. I was actually on Facebook

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Speaker 2: the other day and a family tradition came up where

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Speaker 2: the children each fill a garbage bag full of clothes

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Speaker 2: that don't fit them anymore or toys that they no

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Speaker 2: longer need, and they put that under the Christmas tree,

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Speaker 2: and when Santa drops their gifts off, he takes that

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Speaker 2: sack so that he can refurbish them and renew them

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Speaker 2: for next year's Christmas. That's so nice and I really

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Speaker 2: liked I liked the framework around it. She obviously acknowledged

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Speaker 2: they go to the Selvo's and it makes room for

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Speaker 2: all the Christmas kills gifts that come. But I love

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Speaker 2: the idea because what it does for your children is

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Speaker 2: help them recognize that they can give to others as well,

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Speaker 2: and that might be something that might be useful.

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Speaker 1: I need to wrap this up with this idea that

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Speaker 1: you shared from my mum, this scarcity mentality versus this

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Speaker 1: abundance mentality. Ultimately, what we're talking about here is something

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Speaker 1: that is really hard for kids, and that is that

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Speaker 1: they need to learn to share. And it is hard

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Speaker 1: to learn to share. Now, I found a quote from

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Speaker 1: a child development researcher, a lady called Nancy Eisenberg. She's

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Speaker 1: been a leading researcher on kids and their social development

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Speaker 1: for decades now, and Eisenberg said this. She said, children

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Speaker 1: become more generous by having the experience of giving to

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Speaker 1: others and learning how good that feels. But there's a catch,

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Speaker 1: and it comes back to what I wrote about in

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Speaker 1: the Pairing Revolution. It comes back to these three basic

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Speaker 1: psychological needs. Specifically one and that is the need for autonomy. Now, remember,

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Speaker 1: every time your kids don't share and you get them

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Speaker 1: in trouble, you make them feel incompetent, which means that

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Speaker 1: they're even less inclined to share in future. But the

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Speaker 1: biggest issue is control. Control, control, control, control, control. That's

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Speaker 1: what the kids are choosing not to share because of

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Speaker 1: and when we step in and force them to share,

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Speaker 1: it makes it harder. So self determination around sharing is

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Speaker 1: actually what I want to encourage, which is really hard

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Speaker 1: to hear when you've got a kids there's not sharing

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Speaker 1: because it seems like they're never going to share. What

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Speaker 1: we're talking about, though, this idea of self regulation or

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Speaker 1: self determination with sharing is really what you might call

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Speaker 1: letting your kids have a long turn. But this works

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Speaker 1: in two ways. It works for your child who isn't sharing.

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Speaker 1: It also works for the child who wants something that

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Speaker 1: they can't have. So let's break this down. If we

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Speaker 1: just take away autonomy and we take the toy away

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Speaker 1: and give it to the sibling the second child, the

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Speaker 1: little kid learns that if they cry loud enough, you

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Speaker 1: know what happens. I get what I want. They also

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Speaker 1: learn that the parents are in charge, and parents can

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Speaker 1: be kind of arbitrary, ride like, parents aren't always consistent,

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Speaker 1: and so they learn.

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Speaker 2: Well and we don't always know the full story either.

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Speaker 1: Right, which becomes such a challenge. Well, this also re

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Speaker 1: emphasizes in our children's mind the reality that this is

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Speaker 1: a competition over resources and parents are going to be

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Speaker 1: that arbiter. There's also the risk that they might lose

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Speaker 1: it because parents can take it away from them just

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Speaker 1: as easily as they gave it to them. So it

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Speaker 1: just doesn't really work. The kids feel like the clock's ticking.

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Speaker 1: They feel like they've got this toy. They can't have

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Speaker 1: it for long. They have to play with it as

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Speaker 1: much as they can. Then they have to protest as

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Speaker 1: soon as it's going to be taken away, like it

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Speaker 1: just makes the family feel awful. But if we let

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Speaker 1: the kids have long terms, if we let them believe, hey,

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Speaker 1: you know what, this is a toy that we share,

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Speaker 1: but right now you're playing with it and you can

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Speaker 1: have as long a term with it as you want.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever noticed what happens with kids when they're

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Speaker 1: given a long turn.

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Speaker 2: They get bored, Like they stop playing with it.

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Speaker 1: I don't need this anymore. There's no competition for the resource,

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Speaker 1: there's no need for it. There's so much power when

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Speaker 1: we say, hey, you know what, you decide you play

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Speaker 1: with it until you're done. Once you're done, then we'll

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Speaker 1: share it with your little brother and that's just fine.

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Speaker 1: And then like there's so much power in this. First

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Speaker 1: of all, the little brother learns that's looking about things,

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Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily change things, and so it's going to take

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Speaker 1: a little while, but pretty soon a little brother is

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Speaker 1: going to go, oh, well, my sister's playing with it.

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Speaker 1: I guess I can either play with it with her

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Speaker 1: or I can go find something else to play with.

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Speaker 1: But the big kid learns. The child who doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to share is learning really really quickly that I've got enough.

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Speaker 1: I have enough, and once I've had enough with what

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Speaker 1: I have, that is enough, other people can have a

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Speaker 1: turn with that and it's not going to affect me like.

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Speaker 1: It's just so much better when we size autonomy when

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Speaker 1: it comes to kids and sharing.

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Speaker 2: Another great tactic, especially for a four year old, is distraction. Oh,

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Speaker 2: you like the perfect age to be distracted by something

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Speaker 2: else bright and shiny. So yes, they're always going to

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Speaker 2: want what their sibling has, but we can offer them

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Speaker 2: other options that will be just as exciting if we

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Speaker 2: can kind of distract them in the process.

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Speaker 1: We really hope that sharing these ideas is going to

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Speaker 1: help with the sharing that happens in your home. Sharing

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Speaker 1: ideas is so much easier than sharing your favorite chocolate, though,

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Speaker 1: isn't it? Missus happy families?

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Speaker 2: I haven't had any I'm just letting you.

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Speaker 1: Know we are on a little bit of a health kick.

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Speaker 1: It's going okay. Although I did notice that the tim

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Speaker 1: tams were open. Let's not go there right now. The

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Speaker 1: Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rulan for Bridge Media.

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Speaker 1: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. For more information about

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Speaker 1: making your family happier, visit us at happy families dot

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Speaker 1: com dot au. Oh and check out it Black Friday sales.

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Speaker 1: in terms of giving you access to resources that are

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Speaker 1: going to make the biggest difference for your family. Make

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