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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families Podcast. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: being a part of these in depth podcast discussions. My

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Speaker 1: name is doctor Justin Colson. I'm a dad to six

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Speaker 1: kids and the author of six books about raising happy families.

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Speaker 1: And on this episode we're having a conversation with Lenor Scanes.

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Speaker 1: She's the president of Let Grow, a not for profit

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Speaker 1: organization that promotes childhood independence and resilience, and also the

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Speaker 1: founder of the Free Range Kids movement. Leno was also branded,

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Speaker 1: quite famously the World's worst mum. Let's start at the

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Speaker 1: peak Lenor Scanazi moment where you've got a nine year

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Speaker 1: old son. It's probably what was it about ten or

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Speaker 1: twelve years ago? Now, oh wow, okay, so yep, So

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Speaker 1: you've got a nine year old son and you say, mate,

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Speaker 1: why don't you catch the subway home?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not what I say. First of all, we

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Speaker 2: don't see meat. But more importantly, our son was asking

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Speaker 2: us if we would take him someplace he'd never been

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Speaker 2: before and let him find his own way home on

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Speaker 2: the subway, which is how we get around in New

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Speaker 2: York City all the time. And this was not something

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Speaker 2: that our older son had asked us when he was

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Speaker 2: nine so it was something that we really had to

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Speaker 2: think about, my husband and I before we said yes.

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Speaker 2: But then finally we did say, okay, we'll do this.

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Speaker 2: We'll let you take the subway by yourself.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of independent, really, isn't it. A nine year

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Speaker 1: old aunt usually saying give me a challenge. Let's just

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Speaker 1: let's just drop me somewhere in the city and let

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Speaker 1: me try to get home. So has he always been

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Speaker 1: an independent minded kind of kid.

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Speaker 2: I would say he is. But I think that we're

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Speaker 2: sort of right and wrong on whether kids have always

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Speaker 2: or don't ask this kind of thing. I think that

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Speaker 2: a generation or two before this, it wouldn't have been

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Speaker 2: a conversation because it would have happened naturally. You know,

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Speaker 2: kids would have been either getting on their bikes if

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Speaker 2: they were in the suburbs, or riding the bus or

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Speaker 2: subway if they were in the city, you know, to

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Speaker 2: get to a music lesson, to get to school, to

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Speaker 2: get to grandma's house, to get to a know, an

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Speaker 2: empty lot and start a baseball game and hang out

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Speaker 2: there all day. And so even the fact that he

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Speaker 2: had to ask, as opposed to this just being a

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Speaker 2: normal thing that kids just do on their own is

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Speaker 2: indicative of it being, you know, a more sort of

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Speaker 2: mother may I kind of era than it was before. So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he was asking him that was unusual, but I don't

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Speaker 2: think his independence would have been unusual in any other generation.

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Speaker 1: When you had the conversation with your husband and then

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Speaker 1: decided that we're comfortable with this, we'll give it a go.

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Speaker 1: We'll take you into the city and we'll go home,

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Speaker 1: and then we'll see you at home in a couple

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Speaker 1: of hours. Hopefully.

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Speaker 2: What we said that's a bigger you're making it into

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Speaker 2: a bigger deal because we were in the city, right

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Speaker 2: We lived in Manhattan at the time, and we were

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Speaker 2: sending him. You know, we just took the subway up

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Speaker 2: to this beautiful, fancy department store, which is why it

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Speaker 2: was someplace he had never been before because we don't

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Speaker 2: usually shot there. And then all he had to do

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Speaker 2: was come back down on the subway about four or

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Speaker 2: five stops, and then we don't live right near there,

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Speaker 2: so he had to take another little bus across town.

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Speaker 2: All together, it might have taken an hour if that.

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Speaker 1: When you went through this conversation and actually got to

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Speaker 1: the point where you're like, okay, let's do this. What

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Speaker 1: reservations did you have? At what point were you thinking?

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Speaker 1: Are we crazy? Is this normal? A generation to go

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Speaker 1: it would have been fine, but it's a different world. Now,

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Speaker 1: what are we thinking? What sort of concerns did you

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Speaker 1: have beforehand?

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Speaker 2: We had the concern that we wanted to make sure

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Speaker 2: that he knew what he was doing. And so even

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Speaker 2: though we are on the subways all the time, and now,

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Speaker 2: some kids love certain things, like there are kids who

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Speaker 2: love cars or dolls or whatever, he loved the subway,

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Speaker 2: loves you know, we'd love public transportation, but we wanted

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Speaker 2: to make sure he understood that. You know that you're

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Speaker 2: reading the map and the green line, which is the

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Speaker 2: line that he was going to have to take. That's

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Speaker 2: the four, five, and six train. For anybody who's been

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Speaker 2: to New York City, that that was the train you

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Speaker 2: would have to take, and you know this is the

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Speaker 2: stock you get off on. And then of course we're

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Speaker 2: always on that extremely slow bus, so he knew that

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Speaker 2: he would have to wait for the bus at the

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Speaker 2: bus stop. I don't recall telling him this that time,

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Speaker 2: but I've always told my kids that you can talk

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Speaker 2: to strain, you can't go off with strangers. So if

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Speaker 2: you need help from somebody, certainly you can ask a

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Speaker 2: question of somebody, but you can't get into somebody's car.

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Speaker 2: You can't go off with somebody. And other than that,

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Speaker 2: we prepared him with a couple of things. We gave

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Speaker 2: him a subway map twenty dollars, just in case you

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Speaker 2: needed something went really terribly wrong and he needed to

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Speaker 2: take a cab or something quarters because even twelve years

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Speaker 2: ago there were still some payphones in the subway, and

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Speaker 2: and a metro card, which is the card that you

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Speaker 2: slide through the entryway to get into the trains to

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Speaker 2: pay your fare. And so I'd say that we didn't

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Speaker 2: think we were crazy because we were preparing him, and

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Speaker 2: because it wasn't something that he was saying, no, Mom,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to do this. This was his idea

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Speaker 2: and something that we had all discussed and decided he

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Speaker 2: was ready for. You know, I'm a reporter by trade.

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Speaker 2: I spent years and years at the New York Daily News,

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Speaker 2: which is if you've seen the Superman movies, it's actually

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Speaker 2: they call it the Daily Planet, but they shoot the

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Speaker 2: movies the Daily News, which is where I worked, And

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Speaker 2: so as a tabloid reporter. I was steeped in the city.

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Speaker 2: You know, I went everywhere on stories hither and Yon,

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Speaker 2: and I had a very i'd say realistic view of

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Speaker 2: the city based on being very much part of it.

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Speaker 2: And that's very different from I think the way the

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Speaker 2: story obviously resonated around the world because if you watch

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Speaker 2: you know, TV shows, especially Law and Order Geez set

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Speaker 2: in New York City, you think there's a murder every second,

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Speaker 2: and there are always children, and they're always raped beforehand,

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Speaker 2: and they're always cut into pieces. And in fact, the

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Speaker 2: crime rate, the crime rate right now is crazy because

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Speaker 2: of COVID, but for since the nineties, the crime rate

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Speaker 2: has been going down, down, down, down, down. So given

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Speaker 2: all that, I didn't think we were crazy, And in fact,

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of things that I wouldn't let

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Speaker 2: my nine year old do, and that I'm sorry that

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Speaker 2: my twenty two year old does. I absolutely I am

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Speaker 2: terrified of cars, but I guess he has to drive.

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Speaker 2: But taking the subway did not strike me as crazy.

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Speaker 1: Every now and again, also kids off to play in

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Speaker 1: the park, or I'll tell them to go for a

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Speaker 1: walk around the block, or jump on their bikes and

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Speaker 1: ride to school or whatever it might be. And as

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Speaker 1: they leave the driveway, my heart goes with them, and

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Speaker 1: I think to myself, I know what the crime statistics are. Loosely,

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Speaker 1: I know that I live in a pretty safe area.

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Speaker 1: I know all of these things. But there's this part

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Speaker 1: of me that just seizes up and thinks, what have

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Speaker 1: you just done. You've sent the ten year old on

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Speaker 1: a bike ride with a twelve year old. What's going

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Speaker 1: to happen? Now? It's a challenging thing. And then you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe the six year old says, can I go too?

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Speaker 1: And I think to myself, well, can I send a

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Speaker 1: six year old in the care of a ten and

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Speaker 1: a twelve year old? And at this point the answer

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Speaker 1: is no, because she's six. But it's a really, really,

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Speaker 1: really big challenge to kind of encounter and work through

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Speaker 1: these things, even when you know rationally that it should

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Speaker 1: be just fine.

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Speaker 2: I've just said the last This weekend, my kids were

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Speaker 2: visiting me and they're now twenty two and twenty four,

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Speaker 2: and when they were driving home together, I was like,

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Speaker 2: both my kids are in the carriage. Oh no, oh no,

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Speaker 2: which is just normal. But here's what we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: You're saying is it rational or irrational to worry this way,

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Speaker 2: to calculate the odds as we're doing. I'd say that

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Speaker 2: there's no way to be a parent without being worried,

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Speaker 2: or at least I haven't figured that out yet. But

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Speaker 2: what I think is different from our about our generation.

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Speaker 2: I'm actually I'm older than you, so about your generation,

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Speaker 2: and then our parents are grandparents or anybody before that,

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Speaker 2: is that when my mom let me walk to school,

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Speaker 2: and it was age five, and she didn't do it

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Speaker 2: because she was a free range mom or a crazy person.

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Speaker 2: She was doing it because everybody let their kids walk

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Speaker 2: to school at age five in the suburb where I

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Speaker 2: was growing up outside of Chicago. She was a nervous mom.

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Speaker 2: You know, she was a regular mom. But back then

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Speaker 2: you let kids do that, and when you let the

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Speaker 2: children go, you weren't sitting there going, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: I hope she makes it. It's going to be about

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Speaker 2: a six minute walk, and she's only five, and she's

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Speaker 2: so well and the world is such a terrible place

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Speaker 2: and if anything terable happened to her, I couldn't live

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Speaker 2: with myself. Forget it. I'm gonna go get her and

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Speaker 2: drive her myself and that simply wasn't the catechism Back then,

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Speaker 2: you didn't have to go through what about you know?

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Speaker 2: And then name you know? What about you know? Elizabeth Smart?

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Speaker 2: What about you know? Maddie McCann. You weren't thinking that

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Speaker 2: a normal mom, a normal good mom, should be thinking

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Speaker 2: about the murder of their child every time the child

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Speaker 2: was out of their sight, or the death on the

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Speaker 2: bike on the walk on you know. So that is new,

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Speaker 2: and it feels normal because we it is normal to worry.

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Speaker 2: But I feel like these new extravagant worries are super

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Speaker 2: imposed on us by a culture that I've seen up close,

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Speaker 2: in part because of the question that was asked to me.

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Speaker 2: You know, I let my son ride the subway. Okay,

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Speaker 2: most interviewers at the very beginning, and I'd say the

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Speaker 2: very beginning. For the first four years, I would say,

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Speaker 2: we're saying, okay, you know, he had a good time,

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Speaker 2: you're proud, he's elated, he feels grown up. Great, that's

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Speaker 2: all great, But what if he hadn't come home? Framing

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Speaker 2: it in the negative? I never had a good answer.

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Speaker 2: How would I have felt? Funny? You should ask, I'd

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Speaker 2: feel great because I don't have to feed another kid.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there was like no normal answer that you

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Speaker 2: could give to that question other than this is how

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Speaker 2: I'd feel. And in a way, this is what they

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Speaker 2: were trying to make me feel. They were trying to

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Speaker 2: take a positive story and turn it back into the

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Speaker 2: story that television loves, which is he never came home.

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Speaker 2: So the fact that he did come home, Okay, let's

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Speaker 2: ignore that and think about how terrible a mom she

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Speaker 2: would have been if that had happened. And why wasn't

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Speaker 2: she thinking that way? You're always supposed to be thinking

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Speaker 2: in this extremely dark, dystopian way about your kid if

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Speaker 2: they're beyond your sight, and that's what's new, And I

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Speaker 2: feel like it's superimposed by questions like that. When an

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Speaker 2: interview would say, well, how would you have felt, it's like,

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Speaker 2: you know how I feel. I would feel lower than hell. Okay,

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Speaker 2: but why are we talking about it? Why? You know,

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Speaker 2: why can't we celebrate when a kid does something normal

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Speaker 2: that I'd say, you know, most nine year olds could

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Speaker 2: do if they felt like it. Worry is normal, but

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Speaker 2: us worrying when the kid goes around the block worrying.

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Speaker 2: I would say, even if a six year old is

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Speaker 2: with a ten and a twelve year old who love

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Speaker 2: him or her and care about them. That's new.

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Speaker 1: What I'm interested in is this, You've been doing some

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Speaker 1: work with let grow dot org with one of the

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Speaker 1: best thinkers in the world of psychology, Jonathan Hate and

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Speaker 1: actually two of the.

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Speaker 2: Best thinkers in the world of psychology, Jonathan Height, and

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Speaker 2: also Peter Gray, doctor Peter Gray.

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Speaker 1: Now you're just showing off genius. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well,

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Speaker 1: I just want to talk about John at the moment

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Speaker 1: because his research is what has fascinated me the most,

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Speaker 1: because Peter really focuses on the play aspect of life,

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Speaker 1: and John has always focused so much more on the

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Speaker 1: I guess, on the social psychology and the data and trends.

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Speaker 1: And what I'm really curious about is what as you've

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Speaker 1: worked as a trio, what have you discovered in the data,

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Speaker 1: what's the data showing in terms of this, Well, is

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Speaker 1: there a trend? And everybody's you know, getting so excited

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Speaker 1: about the outlaws the unusual stories.

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Speaker 2: First of all, I do think there's something. I'm happy

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Speaker 2: you mentioned the outliers and the unusual stories because I

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Speaker 2: feel like they are driving so much of our regular

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Speaker 2: life based on the saddest, worst, most anomalous, unpredictable stories

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Speaker 2: that if there was some way we could get rid

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Speaker 2: of the story of one horrible accident or one horrible crime,

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Speaker 2: or one horrible shooting, I think we would all be

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Speaker 2: at a much better set point rather than using those terrible,

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Speaker 2: outlying stories as the norm from which we decide how

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Speaker 2: we should live our lives. But the thing that son,

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Speaker 2: Jonathan Heyde is a big fan of free range kids,

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Speaker 2: and he's raising his free range kids, and I feel

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Speaker 2: great about that. But he came to me a couple

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Speaker 2: of years ago, and his hypothesis was that young adults,

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Speaker 2: and by young adults re meets college age and a

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Speaker 2: little bit beyond were becoming fragile. And as it turns out,

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Speaker 2: doctor Peter Gray had noticed this too. That you know,

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Speaker 2: I think it's great when kids go for you know,

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Speaker 2: the psychological services they need. And believe me, I live

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Speaker 2: in New York, I'm a Jew, I'm a woman. I've

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Speaker 2: been to as much therapy as anybody could posibly have

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Speaker 2: because of these demographics. So I love therapy. However, it

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Speaker 2: seems like at this point on the college campuses, and

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about before COVID because COVID is just so

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Speaker 2: weird that the colleges could not keep up with the

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Speaker 2: number of kids who were seeking therapy and who seemed

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Speaker 2: to be falling apart and not falling apart after a

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Speaker 2: breakup with a girlfriend or a boyfriend or something very large,

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Speaker 2: but often after a bee like a not a bee

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Speaker 2: like this, like a bee, or after an argument with

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Speaker 2: the roommate, after a mouse in the dorm. And John

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Speaker 2: and Peter were thinking, where is this fragility coming from?

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Speaker 2: Why do the kids think they need to talk to

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Speaker 2: either counselor or they have to talk to their dean

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Speaker 2: because they're so worried about their grades, or they're calling

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Speaker 2: their parents as they walk across the campus because they

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Speaker 2: feel afraid to walk without talking to somebody while they're

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Speaker 2: crossing the campus. This seemed new, and it seems sad.

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Speaker 2: You know, here it is this blossoming time of your life,

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Speaker 2: and yet a lot of kids were very, very anxious

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Speaker 2: and depressed. And if you're asking about the data, the

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Speaker 2: data are that anxiety and depression among young people has

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Speaker 2: been going up for the last several decades. And I

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Speaker 2: you talk about it, but so suicide. So it's not

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Speaker 2: just you know, choosing to call more things depressed or

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Speaker 2: kids saying I'm depressed because there's a certain social cachet

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Speaker 2: to it. It really does seemed to be weighing on

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Speaker 2: the kids. And so John came to me and said,

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Speaker 2: I think this is starting younger. You seem to be

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Speaker 2: the only person. I'm not the only person who is

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Speaker 2: trying to fight the over protection that seems to be

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Speaker 2: undermining kids. And let's work together and start a nonprofit

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Speaker 2: that tries to overthrow the over protection that is not

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Speaker 2: helping kids, it's hurting kids. And so I said, no,

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Speaker 2: I didn't want to start a nonprofit. I'm a journalist

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Speaker 2: by trade. I liked just being a lone wolf on

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Speaker 2: my free range track. But a couple of years later

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Speaker 2: he persuaded me. And also by then, I've found somebody

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Speaker 2: who actually knows about how to start a business. And

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Speaker 2: so together the three of us plus Daniel Stuckman, who

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Speaker 2: used to be the chairman of Fire, which fights for

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Speaker 2: free speech on campus, also worrying that there was a

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Speaker 2: trend on campus where kids were saying that if somebody

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Speaker 2: came to speak whom they didn't like or whom they

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Speaker 2: disagreed with, rather than saying why'd they invite this jerk?

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Speaker 2: Or rather than reading up on that person's work and

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Speaker 2: then coming and raising your hand at you know, in

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Speaker 2: the Q and a time and you know, offering a

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Speaker 2: piercing critique and the question to boot. Instead they were saying,

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Speaker 2: don't let them come on campus. They I'm not safe

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Speaker 2: if this speaker is coming to campus. And we're not

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Speaker 2: talking about a rabble rousing, you know, machette wielding speaker.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about a speaker with a difference of opinion

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Speaker 2: or often in a different political party. And so Daniel

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Speaker 2: was worried that free speech was going to die because

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Speaker 2: if it seems like it's actually hurting somebody, actually physically

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Speaker 2: harming someone, how could you fight for it. How can

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Speaker 2: a president of a college say no, we're going to

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Speaker 2: have that person come speak anyway if the students feel

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Speaker 2: like that is literally putting them in danger. So there's

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Speaker 2: this idea of the sort of through line too. All

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Speaker 2: this is seeing a normal situation that everybody has doubt

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Speaker 2: in the past, whether it's a speaker you don't like

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Speaker 2: or a walk to get your cricket magazine, and instead

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Speaker 2: of seeing it as just something that either is okay

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Speaker 2: or maybe even good. It was all seen through the

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Speaker 2: lens of risk and danger. And so we've started let

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Speaker 2: Grow with the desire to start so young with kids,

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Speaker 2: getting them used to being part of the world, being challenged,

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Speaker 2: standing up for themselves, having fun, being curious, following their interests,

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Speaker 2: organizing a game without some adult deciding whether you're in

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Speaker 2: or out and moves on what team, just doing some

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Speaker 2: of these age old things that seem to be since

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Speaker 2: time immemorial part of childhood, giving them back to children

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Speaker 2: and making parents feel that it's a good idea, that

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Speaker 2: it's not crazy dangerous, and that actually you're doing something

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Speaker 2: that you know. Not only does let Grow approve a bit,

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Speaker 2: but these extremely vaunted social psychologists and other psyche moral

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Speaker 2: psychologists think it's good for your kids. So we want

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Speaker 2: to to renormalize the idea of giving kids back some independence.

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Speaker 1: There are so many things that I want to pull

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Speaker 1: out of there, and time is going to get the

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Speaker 1: better of us because there's still so much that I

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Speaker 1: want to talk to you about. Maybe I've just made

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Speaker 1: three notes as I've listened to everything that you've said,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to ignore the rest of it. Not

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Speaker 1: because it's not brilliant to discuss, but simply because timeline

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Speaker 1: allows us to discuss all of that. The first thing

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Speaker 1: that I want to highlight is something that you prompted

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Speaker 1: in my memory. As you talk about the trends and

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Speaker 1: the data. I've been looking into perfectionism recently, and my sense, yeah,

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Speaker 1: my sense is that perfectionism is following the same trend

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Speaker 1: and is probably linked here. The idea with perfectionism is

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Speaker 1: that I either expect a lot of myself or I

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Speaker 1: feel like everybody else expects a lot of me. And

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Speaker 1: it seems that the most complex and debilitating form of perfectionism.

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Speaker 1: There is another form as well, by the way, and

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Speaker 1: that's when you expect perfection of those outside you. So

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Speaker 1: there are three forms of it, but the one that

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Speaker 1: seems to be most debilitating is the one where we

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Speaker 1: have an expectation that everybody around us expects so much

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Speaker 1: of us and we can't possibly live up to it.

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Speaker 1: And what I'm hearing as I think about John and

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Speaker 1: Greg Lukenof's book The Coddling of the American Mind, and

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Speaker 1: I think about the things that you've just talked about,

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Speaker 1: is there seems to be this desire on the part

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Speaker 1: of parents to create a perfect world for their children,

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Speaker 1: a world where their children don't have to take risks

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Speaker 1: and always do feel safe, because if we can create

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Speaker 1: that instagram worthy perfect world, and I know that, I

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Speaker 1: guess I'm relying on tropes and stereotypes a little bit

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Speaker 1: as I summarize a whole lot of things here. Parents

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Speaker 1: feel like they can control everything to give their kids

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Speaker 1: the best outcomes, and aligned with that, the data doesn't

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Speaker 1: just show the points that you've made around safetyism, I guess,

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Speaker 1: but the data also shows that what we would call

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Speaker 1: autonomy supportive parenting, That is parenting along the lines of

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Speaker 1: what you've just discidribed with your son when he called

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Speaker 1: that subway tryin as a nine year old. That is,

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Speaker 1: you sit down and you put the scaffolding in, You

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Speaker 1: do the pre work, You make sure that they're going

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Speaker 1: to be okay, and say, all right, it's your life.

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Speaker 1: If you go, I'm with you.

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Speaker 2: Now, I just have to jump in. There's som much

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Speaker 2: to say. First of all, you can never say you're

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Speaker 2: going to be fine, because that's that is the idea

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Speaker 2: of control, I mean, the illusion that we can control

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Speaker 2: for every variable. It leads to bureaucracy pickup.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and.

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Speaker 2: I think it leads to extreme nervousness on the part

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Speaker 2: of parents because there's no there's no acknowledgment that like,

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Speaker 2: we can't control everything. We aren't God. You know, we

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Speaker 2: think we are. We have the phones, we can track them,

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Speaker 2: we can see who they texted, we can you know,

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Speaker 2: there's cameras everywhere. But in fact we're not in complete control.

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Speaker 2: And you know, if you think you are, you will

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Speaker 2: never be able to let go at all because you

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Speaker 2: will think if anything bad happens, there will be no grace.

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Speaker 1: So it's really no, it's more it's more about not

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Speaker 1: saying you be fun. It's more about saying I feel

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Speaker 1: like we've done everything we can to help you to

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Speaker 1: have a good experience. I hope you'll be fine, but

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Speaker 1: if you won't, we'll do what we need to, or

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Speaker 1: you'll do what you need to to make it fun eventually.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, part of it is, yes, trusting

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Speaker 2: that your kid can roll with some punches. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 2: part of it is that we're told that the kids

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Speaker 2: are as fragile, so we treat them as gradual and

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Speaker 2: it becomes this sort of princess and the pe you

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Speaker 2: know exercise where we keep making things safer and better

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Speaker 2: until they expect too much more. But back to perfectionism,

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Speaker 2: you know you're mentioning. It makes me want to actually

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Speaker 2: research it more because I think it is like a

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Speaker 2: third almost disability that we are imposing upon kids. And

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Speaker 2: I say this because there's this one seventh grade teacher

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Speaker 2: I just love who did the Lecro project, which is

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Speaker 2: sending kids home with the homework assignment. You must do

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Speaker 2: something on your own without your parents that you haven't

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Speaker 2: done before. You know, walk the dog, make dinner, you know,

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Speaker 2: run an errand babysit whatever. She was talking about. One

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Speaker 2: of the reasons she decided to do the project with

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Speaker 2: her class is that she'd never seen a group of

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Speaker 2: kids and this was a year ago as nervous as

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Speaker 2: the seventh grader she had. And one of the one

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Speaker 2: of the sort of ways she explained to me what

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Speaker 2: was going on is she'll say, I'll say, okay, take

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Speaker 2: out your paper and you know, put your name on it.

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Speaker 2: We're going to have a quiz. And they would be like,

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Speaker 2: we put her name in the right hand side or

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Speaker 2: the left hand side, and it's like the left hand side, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but just the last name, you know, do you need

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Speaker 2: the date on it? And and to me that that

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Speaker 2: bespeaks perfectionism or a fear, and fear is at the

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Speaker 2: bottom of it. It's like if I do one thing wrong,

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Speaker 2: if I get a bad grade, if I disappoint the teacher,

431
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 2: if I look stupid. The thing that she kept saying

432
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 2: that the kids kept saying to her is I don't

433
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 2: want to get out of my comfort zone. And the

434
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,199
Speaker 2: comfort zone is extremely narrow, to the point where she

435
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 2: said that one kid came to her class it was

436
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 2: actually an extra class at lunchtime, a little late kid

437
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,639
Speaker 2: didn't have time to get her lunch. So the teacher said, okay,

438
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 2: just go get your lunch and you know, well, you

439
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 2: know when you come back, you'll just jump right in.

440
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 2: And the kids said, by myself. And so that struck

441
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:16,679
Speaker 2: me as like you've developed so little self confidence that

442
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,119
Speaker 2: you don't think you can handle anything, whether it's you know,

443
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 2: what if you put your name on the paper wrong,

444
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 2: what if you're walking by yourself to the cafeteria and

445
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 2: it's scary or lonely. This is your school. You're seventh grader,

446
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 2: you're thirteen years old, you know, in some countries you'd

447
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,640
Speaker 2: be dragooned into the army by then, which I also

448
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 2: think is a bad idea, but to raise these kids.

449
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 2: And so then she had them write down what they

450
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 2: would like to do for their you know, what was

451
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,120
Speaker 2: their thing that they were hesitant to do, but they

452
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 2: wanted to do for theirlet Grow project. And the answers were,

453
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 2: I want to walk my dog, but what if he

454
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:47,880
Speaker 2: gets off the leash. I want to go and run

455
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,959
Speaker 2: an errand, but the store is filled with strangers. I

456
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 2: want to use a knife, but I'm afraid of cutting

457
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 2: off my fingers. So everything was was so terrifying to them,

458
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: the simplest things, And parents have kept them from walking

459
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,479
Speaker 2: to school because it might be dangerous. And don't use

460
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 2: the knife, you might hurt yourself, and I'll run the

461
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 2: errand with you. You don't know this, you know, you

462
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 2: don't know where the stuff is in the store. You've

463
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 2: never made change for yourself, you don't know how to

464
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 2: talk to the cashier. Well, of course they don't know

465
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,120
Speaker 2: how to do anything if you've done them for them

466
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,239
Speaker 2: the whole time, and you've created the very ineptitude that

467
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 2: you're worried about them having and in the in the

468
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,119
Speaker 2: absence of doing anything on your own and succeeding, in

469
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 2: the absence of taking that long walk and getting the

470
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 2: cricket magazine because you say for it, you walk to it.

471
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 2: It was too far and you did it anyway. Without

472
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 2: that Jenga piece, kids are falling apart. And all I'm

473
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 2: saying is, let's remember that there's no such thing as

474
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 2: I want a zero risk childhood for my kid. It's like,

475
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 2: when you're taking away all that risk, you're raising the

476
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 2: risk of depression, anxiety, perfectionism, despair because all you've raised

477
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 2: is a person who looks like a person, but there's

478
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 2: nothing inside. It hasn't been knitted together by life. You

479
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,679
Speaker 2: have to take a step back for your kids to

480
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 2: step up. That's it.

481
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: I love your passion. I'm thinking so many again, so

482
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 1: many thoughts. Let me uh, let me, let me go

483
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 1: back a quick step. You know why kids love kids

484
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: books because they're always about the kids. The parents. The

485
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 1: parents are vanished. Where are the parents? The kids are

486
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: living their lives and they're they're exploring the woods, or

487
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: they're climbing the trees, they're having their adventures and.

488
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,640
Speaker 2: The and then yes, there's so.

489
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: Much joy to be had when the parents run around.

490
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: I've heard you talk about the difference between risk and risky, right, risk.

491
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 2: Is inherent and everything. I mean, boy, I don't watch them,

492
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 2: but a friend who watches the home improvement shows, you know,

493
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 2: I wish I had a better looking pass. Obviously, I

494
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 2: don't watch the home improvement shows look at this place,

495
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 2: but those who do tell me that they keep hearing

496
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 2: a couple of things, parents that are saying that they

497
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 2: seems like it's a normal desire. Right now, there's parents saying,

498
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 2: I don't want any walls in the you know, I

499
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 2: want to be able to have a clear sight line

500
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 2: to my kids at all times. It's like those poor kids,

501
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes you just want to get away from

502
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 2: your mom and sneak the comic book. You know.

503
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 1: Oh, it's like social media, right. The kids have discovered

504
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: that parents are always watching what they're doing because social

505
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: media is risky. And let's face it, there is risk

506
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 1: in anything that happens online and everything, but the kids.

507
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 2: There's also risk in not doing it and being the

508
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 2: only one who doesn't have a you know, a way

509
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: of communicating and planning. But I wanted to say, the

510
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 2: idea of risk and risky and so so the parents

511
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: want to get rid of the site, you know, any

512
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 2: any blocks to sitelines and then a lot of times

513
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 2: and I haven't seen these, so this is heresay. They

514
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 2: don't want a house with stairs. And what's interesting about

515
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 2: that is that of course they're afraid of their kids

516
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 2: falling down the stairs. How do you learn not to

517
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: fall down the stairs? Got to you gotta climb some

518
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 2: The stairstairs are not like a weird part of life

519
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 2: that you could avoid like oysters, you know, or or

520
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 2: esque argo or something. It does like why I'm only

521
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 2: thinking about shelled fish, I don't know. But the point

522
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 2: is that stairs, like the actual contours of the earth

523
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 2: are sort of like stairs. There are hills, there are mountains,

524
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 2: there are valleys, there are streams, there are rocks, there

525
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 2: are trees. The idea that you should have a completely flat,

526
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 2: no stairs, no you know, blockades between you and the

527
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 2: child effort is like setting a prison. I mean, you're

528
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: trying to create a panopticon where you see the child

529
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 2: all the time, you can be in control all the time,

530
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 2: and parents are unashamedly asking for that on these home

531
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 2: improvement shows. Which I feel is why we feel so

532
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 2: scared as parents. If this is the norm to the

533
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 2: point where it's like houses are being built to accommodate

534
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 2: these parents, then you start feeling like it is normal

535
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 2: to worry about your kid walking up and down the stairs,

536
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 2: walking out the door, ever, riding a bike, doing anything

537
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 2: on their own. And that just keeps reinforcing the idea

538
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 2: that you should be you know, always seeing, all knowing

539
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 2: and hovering, which then leads to us doing that and

540
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 2: leads to the things you were talking about before, the

541
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 2: depression of the anxiety. So there's no no risk because

542
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 2: if you're taking out the risk of climbing the stairs,

543
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 2: you're instilling the risk of like stairs, ah, which you

544
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: don't want either.

545
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 1: There's a difference, though, between excepting that there is risk

546
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: in heron in law and actively pursuing risky things.

547
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:34,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, risky things, yuck, franky, you know, I'm just as

548
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I believe in Look, put on your seat belt.

549
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 2: Seat belt does not change your experience at all. Right,

550
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: You're still in the car going where you're going, getting

551
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 2: there at the exact same time. Put on a helmet,

552
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 2: you still get to ride your bike. Put on a mouthguard,

553
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 2: you'll keep all your teeth while you're playing soccer, rugby, football, whatever.

554
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 2: But those are risks that can be mitigated. And I'd

555
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 2: say that certainly in the case of a car, they're

556
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 2: real risks. The number one way kids die is as

557
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 2: car pass. But to rewrite using a sharp knife as

558
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 2: a risk because there is a teeny tiny risk, not

559
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: even a teeny tiny risk, there's a somewhat risk that

560
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: you might nick yourself. But I keep wanting to do

561
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 2: a video and nobody wants to do this with me

562
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 2: where it shows like you're worried about your kids chopping

563
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 2: off their finger. Let's see how much it takes. And

564
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: I'm not willing to do this video, but I think

565
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: it would take a lot of chopping, you know, with

566
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 2: a serrated knife that you're using for your cucumbers, to

567
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 2: actually chop off that finger. And so to call that

568
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 2: risky when it's simply a risk, and in the meantime,

569
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 2: your kids are getting adept at making a meal, being confident,

570
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 2: being trusted, being part of the economy of the house

571
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: as opposed to just the king. I think that you

572
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 2: can't say that that's only a risk. It's a risk

573
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 2: in not letting.

574
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: Your kid use a knife in a recent podcast, and

575
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: by the way, so let grow has You've got a

576
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: brand new podcast that you've been doing, and I'm I'm

577
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: already caught up on it. The name of the podcast

578
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: is Supervision Not Require Love This. And in one of

579
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: your more recent episodes, you said, and I quote fear

580
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: it doesn't prevent this, but life.

581
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it prevents life. Yeah, And I wish I could

582
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 2: take credit for it, but it's probably from a fortune

583
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 2: cookie or something. I mean, I heard it elsewhere, but

584
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 2: it's so true. I Mean, sometimes it feels like worrying

585
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 2: is a substitute for doing or for anything else. It's like, oh,

586
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 2: I'm doing something great, I'm worried, and believe me, I'm

587
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 2: a worrier. So I know that that's a major time

588
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: suck and also a joy suck. But worrying doesn't change things. Yeah,

589
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 2: if you're gonna, if you're gonna worry about your kids

590
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 2: and you are, teach them the things that we've just

591
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: been talking about. Teach them to cross the streets safely,

592
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: teach them that they can talk to strangers, they can't

593
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 2: go walk with strangers. Teach them never to get into

594
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: anybody's car. Teach them to look both ways, actually three times.

595
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 2: When you're at the corner're supposed to look left, right,

596
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: left again. I don't remember why, but I learned it

597
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: in kindergarten and then I just read it again recently,

598
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: so it must be true. You know, teach them the

599
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 2: things that parents have always taught their kids. It's about life.

600
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 2: But until recently, it wasn't that we assumed that we

601
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 2: were going to be with them every second. And then

602
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: the way they don't even have to learn anything because

603
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 2: we're always going to be with them or watching them,

604
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 2: and that's it. Assume that it's safer for your kids

605
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 2: to gain some independence and to have some you know,

606
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 2: not horrible experiences, but a couple of you know, things

607
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: that were thwarted, some disappointments, some frustration. My kid got

608
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: a trophy for eighth place in bowling out of nine leagues.

609
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: I'm insulted on his behalf. Are you thinking that he

610
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 2: can't tell that, you know, he's second to last out

611
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 2: of nine teams. I mean he can handle. He can

612
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: handle the frustration, and if he wants to get good

613
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: at bowling, well, now he knows he's got a long

614
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 2: way to go, so he can either practice or accept

615
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 2: the fact. But the idea of pretending like there's there

616
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 2: should be no frustration ever, and you still got a trophy,

617
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 2: that's an insult to the human spirit.

618
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: I have a couple of questions before or I get

619
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: to my final five that we whizz through very quickly

620
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: to learn a bit more about it.

621
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 2: But I know you sent me the final five before,

622
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 2: and I don't know the answer, so we'll probably actually

623
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: have to creep through them very slowly. As I said,

624
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 2: I guess myself, but we'll.

625
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: See how we go. So a couple of quick ones

626
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: just to just to try to I guess, distill and

627
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: break down into really simple steps what we're dealing with

628
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: when it comes to this idea of letting our kids grow,

629
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: you know, let grow dot org a free range parenting

630
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: our kids. In that podcast that just made me laugh

631
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: out loud, you use the line we want to give

632
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: our kids freedom, and then you said not so much

633
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: freedom that they're hitchhiking to the crack house, but we

634
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: want to give them freedom. So how do we how

635
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: to parents who are really wrestling with some of the

636
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: things that we've talked about today identify where do they start.

637
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: How do they get to the point where they say, Okay,

638
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: I will let my child walk or ride to school,

639
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: or I will give them this freedom in this way

640
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: or that way. How do they do that? I know

641
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: that Let's got some resources to help with this, but

642
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: what guidance would you give?

643
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, first, I do have to put in a

644
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 2: plug for our Let Grow project because it's free, and

645
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 2: so is the elect Grow Independence Kid. Pretty Much everything

646
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 2: that we do is free. And the reason I'm mentioning

647
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: it is because it is very hard to be the

648
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 2: only parent who is doing something that goes a little

649
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: bit against the grain. If nobody is letting their kid

650
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 2: ride their bike, you know, more than two blocks, and

651
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 2: you say, I think you can go all the way

652
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 2: to the you know, to the drug store, not the

653
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 2: drug store, the pharmacy, you know, the candy store whatever,

654
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 2: oh my god, candy. If you're saying that your kid

655
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 2: can do something and other parents aren't, it is harder

656
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 2: to do. And so when schools do the Let Grow

657
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 2: project where all the teachers are sending all the kids

658
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 2: home with the assignment they have to do something on

659
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 2: their own, then you're not the only one. And in fact,

660
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 2: then your kid and your neighbor's kid can go together

661
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 2: to the park or together to the store. So the

662
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: reason I recommend the Lectro project, and it's corollary for

663
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: distance learning time the Elecro Independence kid, is because you

664
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 2: don't feel alone, and that is a much easier way

665
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 2: to go because you are changing the norms together. Right.

666
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: We've heard from towns that have done this project that afterwards,

667
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 2: like the principal went around like two weeks after her

668
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 2: school had done the Lecro project and she saw two

669
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 2: kids on bikes, a kid on a roller skate, and

670
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 2: a kid on skateboard in just her little ride home,

671
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: and she said she'd never seen kids outside on their

672
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 2: own before. So it changes the norms. It's much easier

673
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 2: to be brave when everybody else is bringing brave to

674
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 2: the point where it doesn't even feel brave anymore. It

675
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: just feels normal. Just like we were talking about at

676
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 2: the beginning of this our discussion, when your mother would

677
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 2: let you walk home at age seven and get yourself

678
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 2: a snack and walk back to school. She didn't have

679
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: to be an evil and evil brave. She was just

680
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: part of the norm, and so were you. So it's

681
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 2: easier when you do it together. But I would say

682
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 2: this if you you know, if you want to do it,

683
00:33:58,440 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 2: do it with a friend. You don't have to do

684
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 2: it with entire school. Send your kids to do something

685
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 2: together without you. And the thing that is so reinforcing

686
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 2: and makes it so easy is the first time you

687
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: do it. Because the first time you do it and

688
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 2: your kid comes home and they walk through the door

689
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 2: and they've taken the subway or they got you the milk.

690
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: There's that great commercial that you guys have, I think

691
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 2: either New Zealand or Australia about the kid who goes

692
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 2: and gets the milk for the first time, or when

693
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 2: they've done anything on their own and they come in

694
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 2: and they're so proud. You will be out of your

695
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 2: mind with pride and diddy, and that's reinforcing to yourself.

696
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 2: You know, this delicious feeling of seeing your kid blossoming

697
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 2: really helps you take the next step. Really, the first

698
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 2: time is hard, and after that it just keeps getting

699
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,800
Speaker 2: better because it feels normal and you're proud.

700
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: So obviously a quick reminder this needs to be developmentally appropriate.

701
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: We're not suggesting that we let the two year old

702
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: go and click the milk on their own, or even

703
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: the four year old. They need to be big enough

704
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: to handle them selves in a reasonable fashion. But we

705
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 1: can just ease off on the pressure list.

706
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 2: Actually, I'm sorry I should have jumped in one second

707
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,399
Speaker 2: and said do the things that we were talking about

708
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,280
Speaker 2: before too. If you're sending your kid off, you'll feel

709
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 2: better if you teach them how to cross the street

710
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 2: and you walk across with a couple of times, and

711
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 2: then you say when would you go and you say, yes,

712
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 2: that's right, and then you let them do it. Once

713
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 2: you see that your kids are not you know, they're

714
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 2: not kittens, they're humans, and they will get some information

715
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 2: into them and absorb it, that will give you a

716
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: lot more calm to Yeah.

717
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: The practice runs and the appropriate scaffolding and necessary so

718
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: that you can see that each child does have the

719
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: developmental capacity to pull this off on their own. Last

720
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: question for you before we dive into these five how

721
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 1: can we promote free range parenting?

722
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,399
Speaker 2: Well, this independence kit that I'm recommending, the Let Grow

723
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 2: Independence Kit, is the same thing. I mean, there's certainly

724
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: a lot of things that they can still do by themselves.

725
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: They can go outside, they can be making dinner for you.

726
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 2: They can be in charge of their own homework, they

727
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: can be finding new interests. You can give them freedom

728
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 2: sometimes to play video games, and you know, not worry

729
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 2: so much about that.

730
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: You just imagine, imagine.

731
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 2: That, Imagine that. You know. The thing is that when

732
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 2: they're home and when you're home, there's just too many

733
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,800
Speaker 2: hours in the day to entertain or educate them yourself

734
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: the whole time. So I'd say, you know, we just

735
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 2: did a giant survey of sixteen hundred kids and sixteen

736
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: hundred adults in the States here, and we ask the kids,

737
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 2: what are you learning anything new? Just for fun, you know,

738
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 2: not for school, just on your own, And the answers

739
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: were just outrageously charming. I'm learning about fuses, I'm braiding hair,

740
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 2: I'm studying gangsters. I learned that my sister has a boyfriend.

741
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: There are just all these interesting things that once they

742
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 2: were bored, you don't have to cure their boredom all

743
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 2: the time, because they will migrate to something that interests them.

744
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 2: And when they do, that's edu. You know, if they're

745
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 2: studying everything about cars or everything about worms, reading up

746
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 2: on it, watching videos, maybe doing a podcast or whatever.

747
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 2: Fake thing on it. That's education. So everybody who's worried

748
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 2: about their kids filling their time, and everybody who's worried

749
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 2: about are their kids getting enough education, When they find

750
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 2: something that turns them on and they pursue it, that's

751
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 2: that's focused. That's research. That's frustration tolerance because you've got

752
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: to learn how to do it better and better and better.

753
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 2: And that's education. So don't be so concerned about the

754
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 2: schooling maybe going down a little bit.

755
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so good, Okay, thank you. So five questions to

756
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: wrap up. Every single person on this podcast gets the

757
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: five questions and the first.

758
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 2: One technical difficulties.

759
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: Repid fire really easy. If we ask your two boys

760
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: now age twenty two and twenty four, what their favorite

761
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: thing to do with you is, what would they say?

762
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 2: Lick the ball? You know, I make a lot of brownies.

763
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 2: They still fight over who gets.

764
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: The ball when they're around the brownies and the beta

765
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: have the same issue. When I go back to mom

766
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: and dads as well, what's been your trickiest parenting moment?

767
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 2: Every parenting moment? Can I just go with that? You

768
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 2: know everything about the car. We discussed this before. Do

769
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,919
Speaker 2: you have to drive in the rain? I literally didn't

770
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 2: want my son, the twenty two year old, to drive

771
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 2: back up to college and the rain. I was overruled,

772
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 2: and I'm really glad I was overruled by husband and

773
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: son saying are you kidding? Aren't you the three range mom?

774
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 2: That always works.

775
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: I love that you struggle with it, just like anyone

776
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: else with with your issues. You know, everyone's got their triggers,

777
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: and for you, that's the thing, and I just love

778
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,959
Speaker 1: the fact that you're you're actually struggling with it. Question

779
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: number three. If you could spend an hour with your

780
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: boys at any age at all, Let's say, you know,

781
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: tomorrow afternoon they wander into the living room three o'clock

782
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: and they're at that magical age that you're envisioning right now.

783
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 1: What age would you pick them? Why would you pick

784
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: that age?

785
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to say it's I'm going to pick

786
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,439
Speaker 2: like this weekend because they were visiting us, the both

787
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 2: of them together, which I really see, especially during COVID.

788
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 2: And I'm saying that in part because I think nostalgia

789
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 2: is my bet mair And if I start wallowing in

790
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 2: like I can't even look this is like me being crazy.

791
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 2: I hate looking at pictures of when they were like

792
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: six and eight. It just makes me so sad because

793
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 2: I will never see that moment again. And I don't

794
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: think I'm the only one I would like to tear

795
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 2: from your listener's, viewers or whatever. I think there's something

796
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 2: too painful about nostalgia. So I'm just going to say, oh,

797
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,800
Speaker 2: I wish it was yesterday. We took a funny picture

798
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 2: in front of we bought a lousy new car. I

799
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 2: mean it runs, but it's really ugly, and we took

800
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 2: a picture in from the car.

801
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: Okay. Interesting. Well, even if you could be really happy

802
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: right now and say that this is what you want

803
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: to focus on, what are you looking forward to as

804
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: a mom?

805
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 2: You should realize, like the crazy person you're talking to,

806
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 2: am I looking forward to anything? I look forward to, Like, oh,

807
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 2: one of the suns is coming back to visit us

808
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 2: again on Wednesday. You know, I really you know, people

809
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 2: think that I'm this daredevil and this non worrier. If

810
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 2: I imagine them getting married, I shut myself down and say,

811
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 2: you know, don't jinx it. So I'm just looking forward

812
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 2: to I think Wednesday tonight is Sunday. For the record,

813
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: I'm looking for Wednesday. Okay, okay, wait, night Monday. I'm

814
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: looking forward to two days from now. Yeah.

815
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: Sure, well, you never know what, you never know what

816
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: might happen. They say that we teach the most what

817
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 1: we need to learn, or we teach best what we

818
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 1: most need.

819
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 2: To that's so funny. Oh that's so interesting. We hate

820
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 2: most and others what we eat most in ourselves. It's like,

821
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 2: why is is so grave? Yeah?

822
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 1: Interesting? Okay, last question for you, if you could go

823
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: back to yourself, and now I know that there's no

824
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 1: there's no nostalgia in this one. Okay, this is this

825
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: is the advice question. If you could go back to

826
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: you when you were a brand new mum having one

827
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 1: of those really tough moments with your children where things

828
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: just aren't working out right and you've got no experience

829
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: this parent thing at all. What advice would you give

830
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: to yourself if you could go all the way back

831
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 1: to the beginning twenty odd years.

832
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it would be about perspective. And actually

833
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 2: this is one that I'm stealing from Wendy Mogul who

834
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 2: wrote The Blessing of the Skin Knee, and she said

835
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: it's normal to think that other kids are better than

836
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 2: yours because you don't see them all the time, and

837
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 2: if you look at anything close up, you will see

838
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 2: the flaws. And so to not envy my friends when

839
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 2: they were having a perfect day with their kids or

840
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 2: what looked like a perfect day, and I was like,

841
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 2: you know, glum thing along and they were crying and

842
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: I or you know, hitting each other. It's just good

843
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 2: to remember that nobody really has the perfect kid or

844
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,399
Speaker 2: the perfect answer, and that's that's reassuring to this day.

845
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that'll bring a lot of peace to

846
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: a lot of parents listening to that, Lon, This has

847
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: been such a delightful conversation. I've I've learned well, I've

848
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: enjoyed your energy and your passion for free ranging. If

849
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 1: people want to learn more about you, whether they want

850
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 1: to grab your books, so they want to get hold

851
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:09,919
Speaker 1: of the resource. So you've talked about what's the best

852
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 1: way for them to do that. What would you like

853
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: people to know more than anything right now so they

854
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 1: could get more in fun.

855
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 2: So first of all, come to let grow dot org.

856
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 2: Oh my god, we have so many articles, we have principles,

857
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,399
Speaker 2: we have videos. If you want to talk to your

858
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 2: fellow parents who are sort of working their way through this.

859
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Speaker 2: We're on Facebook at both let Grow easy Enough, Let

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00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 2: Grow Org, I guess or. We also have a page

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Speaker 2: called No More Helicopter Parenting. And believe me, I don't

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00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 2: blame helicopter parents, because as you heard, I'm part helicopter

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00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 2: and so it's just it was just for SEO purposes

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00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 2: to make it easy to find search engines. But at

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Speaker 2: No More Helicopter Parenting, it's just parents asking each other questions.

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Speaker 2: I can't get my kid off the couch. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm worried about you know, something terrible happening. You know.

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Speaker 2: Can you reassure me? It's just a conversation. And then

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Speaker 2: my book is Free Range Kids, but I just got

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00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 2: a contract that I signed, which means i'd better start

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00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 2: writing it to update it. So I'm adding a chapter

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00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 2: on anxiety, and a chapter on probably on technology, people

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00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 2: are very concerned about that, and then one for schools

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Speaker 2: for school teachers and administrators.

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Speaker 1: Well, what a great conversation diving into the early years

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00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,359
Speaker 1: of the free range Kids movement with Lenor SKANESI, Leno,

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00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 1: I would love it if you would come back and

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00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 1: tell us more about Let Grow. You're not for profit.

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00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 1: Organization about promoting childhood independence and resilience, and maybe a

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00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: bit more about free range kids as well. The Happy

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00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland for Bridge Media.

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00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 1: We hope you have a great weekend. More information and

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00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: more resources though to make your family happier. You'll find

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Speaker 1: them at happy families dot com dot au