WEBVTT - How Productivity Has Hijacked Your Life - Uncut with Israa Nasir 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.280 This episode was recorded on cameragle Land. 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:14.440 Hey guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:17.120 I'm Brittany and I'm Laura, and today we are talking 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.560 about something I think we are slightly guilty of. 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:22.720 Laura, No, I think you're definitely more guilty than me. 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:24.919 I feel like in the last two decades, this idea 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:27.880 of hustle culture has taken over, the idea of this 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:31.560 the more that you do, the more successful you are, 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:33.120 and the more value you have in the world. 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:35.040 I don't even know if it's just taken over. I 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:37.960 think that sometimes we find ourselves on the hamster wheel 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:39.919 and also just don't know how to come off it, 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:42.839 because like the way in which we structure our lives 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:45.680 requires us to be so busy and do so many things, 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.280 and then once you're at that place in life, it's like, well, 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:50.120 how do you stop? I mean, that's the question I 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:51.440 seem to ask myself quite a bit. 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.240 Well, someone that's dedicated a lot of her time to 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:58.120 trying to understand this is israd isra Is New York based. 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:00.800 She's a psychotherapist and she's the all of the brand 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:04.200 new book Toxic Productivity. I actually have a hard time 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.040 saying that because my head wants to say toxic positivity, 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:10.720 toxic productivity, and today we're going to unpack exactly what 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:11.120 that is. 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:13.240 How we think we can let go of our. 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.120 Belief that our value is defined by how busy and 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:17.399 successful we feel. 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:19.360 Ezra, Welcome to the podcast. 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:19.800 Hi. 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.440 I'm so excited to chat with the both of you. 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:24.959 You're literally on the other side of the world for me, 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.160 so it's really nice to kind of chat with people 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:30.160 who are in so far away places and get their 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:31.080 perspective as well. 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:33.000 Well. I mean, I think the interesting thing is that 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:35.800 regardless of being on literally the opposite side of the world, 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:38.119 I feel like the sentiment is the same. It doesn't 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:41.200 matter where you are, especially when you're in this phase 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:44.280 of life, and particularly for a woman as well. We 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:46.760 start every episode the same way. It's cat an accidentally 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:49.760 unfiltered story. You said. Unfortunately, you do have an embarrassing 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:51.560 story to share with us, and I can't wait to 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:52.000 hear it. 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:56.120 Ugh, it was literally the cringiest moment of my life 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:01.240 and I can now talk about it without out from embarrassment. 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:03.440 So I used to work at a startup and I 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.760 had transitioned from like being a therapist to working at 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:10.680 a startup in like operations, and a lot of tech 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:14.240 tools were new for me, like Slack and Zoom and 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:17.160 Excel because therapists pre pandemic were not using any of 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:20.840 this stuff, right, everybody was going into therapy offices. And 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.200 I remember we were pitching to a client which was 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:28.079 an external business client, and I was the one who 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:31.120 was presenting, and I was supposed to share my screen 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:35.600 and I literally shared the wrong screen that had a 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:40.280 Slack open where a group of co workers were talking 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:41.280 about that client. 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:45.639 It was the most embarrassed. 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:48.600 Yeah, oh god, it was horrible. 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:49.959 I did not even realize it. 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:51.160 What did the slack say. 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:53.480 They were just kind of talking about the difficulties of 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.480 working with this client and trying to, like, you know. 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:57.600 Close the deal. 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:02.760 And I did not even realize it until somebody on 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:06.520 the client side said I think you're sharing the wrong screen. 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:08.160 I got fired for a day. 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:12.480 Yeah, I got fired for the one day. He took 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:14.680 me back like literally the next day, but I did 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.400 get fired for that one day. The learning was don't 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:22.040 talk on any other communication channels while presenting, Like just 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:22.640 don't do it. 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:24.200 That was my learning. 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:26.520 But also it's not fair that you're the one that 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:28.400 gets into trouble for that, because that is an easy 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.640 mistake to make. The bigger mistake there is everyone bitching 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:34.920 in slack about the client, like that's the I mean, yeah, 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.520 maybe there's a few lessons to learn about story. 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:37.640 Well. 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:39.160 I think there are multiple people that fault here. 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.200 I'm sure there's some kind of sentiment somewhere that says 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:45.960 that I shall not gossip or something like about my 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:47.640 shitty clients. 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:49.880 I think a lot of people have heard of the 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:53.320 concept of toxic productivity, and I think in the name itself, 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:55.920 it kind of self explains what it is. But I'm 0:03:55.960 --> 0:04:01.000 really interested in how does one define when productivity becomes toxic? 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.880 Like when does the overachieving and the want to do 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:08.520 more slip into an area where it's no longer healthy 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:09.840 for us and no longer serving us. 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.200 I think the biggest red flag to look out for 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:16.680 to understand whether or not your productivity is toxic or 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.560 not is whether the outcome that you are pursuing is 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:24.520 connected to how you view yourself in relation to other people, 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:28.080 in relation to your community, your family, your work. So 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.400 that's like a really big sign because our productivity is 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:35.120 healthy if we're pursuing it and failure doesn't shatter our 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:38.880 self worth, right, But if our self worth is completely 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:42.839 contingent on the outcome, then our productivity has moved away 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.000 from just trying to achieve things to a place of 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.200 trying to prove our value and our worth in our communities, 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:53.320 in our workplace relationships. That's one sign. The other sign 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:58.160 is when you don't really know the why behind what 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:00.560 you're doing. So a lot of a just kind of 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:03.359 do stuff because other people are doing it. We're competing 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:06.200 with other people, our parents have told us to do 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.839 it right, and we're just kind of on the hamster wheel. 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:11.480 But we have no intentionality. 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.919 We just have these arbitrary goals like I have to 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.120 buy a house before thirty five, I have to be 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:18.919 married by thirty I need to have all of my 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:21.680 kids before thirty two, I need to have X salary 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:24.120 before thirty eight, Like we have all of these timelines, 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:28.200 but there's no rationale behind it. And so that's also 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.360 like why are you pursuing what you're pursuing? That can 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:34.960 move you into the realm of toxic productivity. And the 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:38.680 final one is when your productivity comes at the cost 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:42.520 of other equally important things in life. So your wellness, 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:46.719 your health, your relationships all become secondary to the pursuit, 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:49.240 and that's when your productivity becomes unhealthy. 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:51.240 As you were saying that, I was asking myself a 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:52.960 lot of questions, and I think it's become so much 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:56.479 worse with the introduction and the takeover of social media, 0:05:56.520 --> 0:06:00.520 because there's this constant comparison culture. So one time we 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:02.800 might have been pretty content with just going to our 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:05.640 nine to five, coming home, spending time with the kids, 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:08.120 going to bed, but now we're seeing everyone else over achieve. 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:10.120 Everyone else is starting their little businesses, So all of 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:12.080 a sudden, you think, oh, well, should I be doing that? 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:12.479 Should I? 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:14.920 Oh my god, they've bought this property with farm? Should 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:16.839 I be doing that? And I think that that's what 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:21.400 feeds back into this pretty toxic loop of wanting to 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:23.880 do more but not understanding why. And even when you 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:26.479 just said that, in my head, I'm constantly saying to 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:28.040 myself why I need to start a business. And I 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:30.160 think that's because Laura has one. I'm like, oh, well, 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:32.000 we're the same person and Laura's doing it, should I 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:33.719 be doing it? But then there's the other half of 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:36.520 me that says, well, I actually really like my life balance, 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:36.800 you know. 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:38.120 And that's what I meant before when I was talking 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:40.320 about how do you get off that hamster wheel? There 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.120 does come a point where you cannot do everything and 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:45.720 you are sacrificing parts of your life. And I think 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:48.760 a big thing that we ultimately sacrifice. When you're someone 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:52.240 who prioritizes work, often the thing that you sacrifice is 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:55.520 your relationships, whether that's your relationships with your friend, or 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:58.880 your relationships with your romantic partner, or even sometimes time 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:00.760 with your kids. Like there is all as an inherent 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:04.880 sacrifice that happens. Can you talk us through Ezra around 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:07.880 where this can apply to different parts of life? Are 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:11.120 we solely talking about work or does it these affect 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:12.680 other areas of our lives as well. 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:16.720 I think in the last twenty five thirty ish years 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:22.360 it has really changed because the relationship we have to 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.400 work has changed. Like thirty years ago, when my dad 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:27.920 would come home from work like that was it. If 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:30.200 his boss needed something, he'd have to wait till the 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:33.520 next day, right, So what's happened is our work culture 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:36.760 has permeated the rest of our life. And what that's 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:41.080 done is this mindset has permeated. 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:41.720 The rest of our life. 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.320 So not only are we bringing our work home and 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.600 there's no boundaries the way we operate at work, which 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:53.360 is about efficiency and optimizing, maximizing competition, right achievement oriented, 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:57.000 goal oriented mindset. We've taken that and we've put it 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:02.200 into our romantic relationships, our friendships, our personal health, our parenting. 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:06.480 It actually permeates a lot of different domains now. And 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:10.200 the research also shows that what burnout used to be 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:14.760 considered just a workplace issue, the latest research is showing 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:17.320 that you can actually burn out in a romantic relationship, 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:21.600 you can experience burnout as a parent for young kids 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:26.320 or caring for elderly parents yourself, And so this mindset 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:29.600 can really show up anywhere because it's a framework. It's 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.280 a framework that we take to our life and it's 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:35.920 rooted in how good we want to feel. So if 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:38.120 you don't feel good about yourself, you're going to find 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.200 many different ways to tap into this mindset so that 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:42.840 you can feel good about yourself. 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:45.960 Is this something that you personally had skin in the 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:48.319 game with, like as someone who has written a book 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.400 on it, who has dedicated their research to it. What 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.480 was your experience with toxic productivity? 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:59.400 Yes, I definitely have. I will use present tense I 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:02.360 have in the game in this. I literally canceled the 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:06.839 doctor's appointment this morning because I was I just had 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.760 so many stacked meetings and I had to go to 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:11.440 the gym because I hadn't gone to the gym in 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:12.240 like four weeks. 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:14.000 So I literally canceled my doctor's apartment. 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.600 So that's the trade off, right, Like you're constantly doing 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:19.160 a trade off. And I'm very mindful of this right 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.120 now because I know I'm in a season because I'm 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.080 doing a lot of interviews for the book coming up, 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:25.600 So I'm looking at this as a sprint. But I 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.800 think five, five to six years ago, this was my 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:32.200 whole life. So right now it's exceptional for me to 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:34.440 be in this mindset where I can tap into it 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:38.520 when I need to. Five years ago, up up until 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:40.200 five years ago, it was just the way I lived 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.000 my life, and I thought that that is the way 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.160 you're supposed to live if you want to be ambitious. 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:51.440 So to me, there was no distinction between ambitious and unhealthy, 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:52.400 Like I. 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:53.480 Was stressed out all the time. 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.360 Well, that's just a byproduct of being ambitious, you know, 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:58.680 like I don't have time to eat, I'm like rushing 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:00.840 through things. Oh well, that's just what happens if you're 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:03.360 like an ambitious person. That's just what happens if you 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.640 are trying to make things happen. And so you accept 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:08.880 that this is just a truth, right, But it's not. 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:11.440 And I think like a turning point came for me 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:13.680 because I didn't hit a breaking point, but I definitely 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:14.840 hit a turning point. 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:16.480 And the turning point for. 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.080 Me was that I realized that all of the things 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:22.080 that I had set this like stage four or you know, 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:26.000 planted the seats for in my late twenties early thirties ish, 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:29.840 which I was getting the result of, wasn't actually making 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.200 me feel happy. So I had done the hustle, and 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:34.079 I'd done all the things, and I just you know, 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:37.439 put in all of my efforts into being multifaceted and 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.520 doing like so many things. But like five years ago, 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.840 I was getting their return, but I wasn't getting the feeling. 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:46.400 I still felt like I should do more. I still 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:48.960 felt like this wasn't enough, like I need to keep 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:51.520 doing it. And so I started feeling really disconnected from 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:53.199 my life. I was very disengaged. 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:55.600 Do you think we become addicted to stress? 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:58.800 I think like at a physiological level there is a 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:02.679 component of because very familiar with the state of stress 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:06.440 in your body, it doesn't really act as like an 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:10.040 actual addiction. So I sometimes feel like hesitant to use 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:13.679 that word, because like addiction is such a complex physical thing. 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:16.520 But I think there are aspects of it. There are 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:22.440 aspects of addictive behaviors towards stress, because we become very 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:25.000 You might have heard people say things like, oh, I 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:28.080 feel the most comfortable in chaos, or I do my 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:31.960 best work under pressure, right, I write my best papers 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:35.920 two nights before it's due. And that's really because the 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:40.800 chaotic state of a dysregulated nervous system and stress hormones 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:45.920 becomes familiar, and so our mind puts working hard success 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:49.520 and that dysregulated feeling together, and so we do become 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:51.280 a little dependent on needing. 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.719 That It's so funny you say that because even here 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:55.800 at left un cut, motto is don't worry, we thrive 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:57.079 in chaos, which. 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:58.560 Is such a dumb motto. We need to get a 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:00.640 new one. We don't want to thrive, we want to 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:01.080 just thrive. 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:04.160 Producercation just looked up as you said that and was like, ah, 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:04.960 fucking guilty. 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.600 No, we want to thrive in we want to thriving peace. 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:11.600 I didn't mean it like that, but I do think 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.600 that there is a strength to people who can thrive 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:16.640 in that because I can, like you can throw shit 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.360 at me and I'll manage it, I will navigate it. 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:21.920 So I have a lot of self trust. But we 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:24.520 don't want our default setting to be thriving in chaos. 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:26.160 We do need to be able to do it. 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:28.560 I latched onto something that you said then around your 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:30.880 own experience of like feeling as though you needed to 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.920 do more. And I mean, I think a lot of 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.160 people do have this, especially if you are someone who 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.520 is entrepreneurial or you're a business woman. This feeling is 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.560 of like it's not enough, and it's not about the money, 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:46.120 it's not about the achievements, even like and I'm conscious 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.719 about making it about myself, like I feel guilty when 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.680 I'm not doing something. I almost have this thought that 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.360 I'm like, I'm not doing enough. But like, how do 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:56.920 you kind of rewire that in your brain and how 0:12:56.920 --> 0:12:59.720 do you sit with that? Because it really is something 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.240 that I think a lot of people experience this feeling 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:03.840 of lack but it's not enough. I need to be 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:06.280 doing more. It's like a guilt when you're not doing 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:07.640 something when you're relaxing. 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:12.679 Yeah, So that's known as productivity guilt, and a lot 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:14.920 of people feel it. So if you're not being productive, 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:18.240 you feel guilty, and guilty is guilt is an emotion 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:23.559 that tells you that you're doing something wrong, and that's 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:26.880 why to alleviate guilt, we want to act and change 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:29.160 something in our environment so we don't feel like we're 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.640 doing something wrong right. And it's different from shame, which 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.440 is telling you that you are wrong, so you are 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.360 not good enough versus I'm not doing something good enough right, 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.719 And we can have both productivity shame and guilt. But 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.640 I think one of the reasons we feel productivity guilt 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:50.400 is because our models of success are often overworked people. 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:54.239 So you might look at a parent figure who's very successful, 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.240 and they might have been people who woke up early 0:13:57.360 --> 0:13:59.439 and made the cookies and went to work and were 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:01.320 part of PETA. Like you might have parents who are 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:06.640 very overfunctioning, right, because my parents definitely perc very overfunctioning, 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.920 and so that's one thing we see, you know, pop 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:12.760 culture models of success. What does that look like somebody 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.000 who's overfunctioning. And then you go into school, like at 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.120 a foundational level, and you learn that if you're idle, 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:22.640 you're not doing something right, like you're missing something, you're 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:28.080 forgetting something, and so this idea of resting being harmful 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.160 becomes very solidified in our mind, and so our body 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:34.240 is not used to it, and so we get very 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:38.480 overwhelmed when we are not doing something. Coupled with that 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.440 is the nebulous goals. Like if you think back to 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:43.160 when you were younger and you were setting goals for 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.880 yourself or even right now for this podcast, for your business, 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:49.640 for your families, the goals are often really nebulous and 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:53.600 they're not like very concrete, and so what happens is 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.640 we don't have a good definition of enough, especially like 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.480 for so I sometimes work with founders around like founder 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.120 mental Health, and one of the most common things I 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:06.040 see is they have these external achievement markers and a 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.400 very vague goal of what is good enough. So if 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:12.320 you don't intentionally design what enough feels like, nothing is 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:14.640 going to feel enough. So I think those are the 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:18.200 two things, as like learning how to incorporate rest and 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.480 regulate the feelings of guilt and having a very clear 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:23.040 intention about what you're pursuing. 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:26.160 Off what you said, Laura, when you're like I feel 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:27.840 guilty if I stopped for a second, I think it's 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:30.640 because it's a learned trait. You don't know any different 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:32.160 for so many years. You run your businesses and you 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.280 have your kids. And I remember when we started this podcast. 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:37.560 We're a few years deep, and I was a hospital worker, 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:39.920 so I was doing shift work, doing this on the side. 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:41.760 We're doing this all hours of the day, like it 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.680 was NonStop. There wasn't one day off. And I had 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:46.680 a really hard time when it was time to give 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:48.960 up my hospital work and just do this, because what 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:50.800 it did give me was a few extra days a 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.240 week that I was like, I actually have time to 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:55.200 do something I want to do right now. And at 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.920 the start, I was filled with so much guilt that 0:15:58.080 --> 0:15:59.640 I thought I'm going to do all these extra things 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.920 to film me days. Very slowly I started to just 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:07.080 start to enjoy those days off, and now I can 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:09.600 genuinely say I'm happily in a place where if I 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:11.720 have a complete day off where I do not do 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:14.680 one bit of work. I don't feel any guilt because 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:18.320 I've redefined my own idea of success, and my personal 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.880 idea of success is to live a comfortable life with 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:25.240 work life balance. Success for someone else might look differently. 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:27.200 It might be all the big mansions or the cars. 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:29.040 But for me, I want to be able to go 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:30.560 for a swim and go to the gym and go 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.120 to a sauna, but also have a job that fills me. 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.160 And I've managed to do that, but it took a 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:38.120 long time of introducing those feelings. So if you're never 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.840 going to introduce a day off or go into the 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:43.920 gym for yourself, your body can't regulate the feeling because 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:44.880 you don't know what it is. 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:47.760 Have I said the right thing? Am I explaining myself? 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:49.400 Well, because you're the other doctor here? 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:52.960 No, No, no, not at all, Not at all. I 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:54.360 think you're absolutely correct. 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.320 Because when we are not familiar with something, it feels 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:02.120 scary and dangerous, and our mind cannot always differentiate between 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:06.520 healthy and harmful or happy and sad. The only thing 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:09.040 your mind can naturally look for is is this a 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:13.720 threatening situation? And unfamiliar is threatening to our mind. Right, 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.840 So that's why sometimes good habits are so hard to build. 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:19.800 It's because they're unfamiliar and your mind is like read alert, 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:21.280 like no, no, no, we don't do this. 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:22.440 We don't do this at all. 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:25.359 Like let's just say safe and safe can be a 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.479 harmful habit that's a comfort zone for you. There's this 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:30.080 really great quote that I love, and I put it 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.720 in the book as well. It's from Mary Estelle. It's 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.840 from like literally the seventeen or eighteen hundreds, but it 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:39.679 goes something like, we go on and vice because we 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.960 are unacquainted with the joys of virtue. So I think, like, 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:45.879 that's the same thing is we are so as a society, 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:50.880 we are so unacquainted with the joys of resting, having boundaries, 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:55.920 having a clear definition of what enough feels like, having intentions. 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:59.280 Like we're just so unacquainted with that. Because the moment 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.639 you start school, the moment you start school, it changes. 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:04.439 People are telling you what you have to do, what 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.280 you need to do, collect all the gold stars, be 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:11.360 like the other kids. Right, here's all these seventeen extracurriculars 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:12.560 that you have to excel at. 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.080 So like it just begins so early. 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:17.920 Do you think as well that there are personality types 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.240 that are more prone to this type of over committing 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.720 and toxic productivity. For example, I would assume that people 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:28.440 who have people pleasing tendencies, who really want to be 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:30.600 almost told that they're doing a good job will prove 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.280 that they're doing a good job, may be more aligned 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:35.400 with this type of overloading their life. 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:40.320 Yeah, so there's definitely a couple of emotional dynamics that 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:43.720 are running the show. So the need for external validation 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.120 can look like people pleasing, but it can also look 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:51.240 like somebody who's a workaholic. Right, So the foundation is 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:56.400 external validation. The foundation is not really feeling a sense 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.960 of belonging, So utilizing achievement as a way to connect 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:03.800 with other people and realizing that when you are doing 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:06.399 things people love you. These are the three things that 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.000 are happening in the background, and so this can show 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:12.680 up as people pleasing as being a workolic. Sometimes birth 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.720 order can get into it, right, like because you might 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:18.960 have been the eldest child or sometimes the eldest daughter, 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:22.359