Speaker 1: This episode was recorded on cameragle Land.
Speaker 2: Hey guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut.
Speaker 2: I'm Brittany and I'm Laura, and today we are talking
Speaker 2: about something I think we are slightly guilty of.
Speaker 3: Laura, No, I think you're definitely more guilty than me.
Speaker 2: I feel like in the last two decades, this idea
Speaker 2: of hustle culture has taken over, the idea of this
Speaker 2: the more that you do, the more successful you are,
Speaker 2: and the more value you have in the world.
Speaker 1: I don't even know if it's just taken over. I
Speaker 1: think that sometimes we find ourselves on the hamster wheel
Speaker 1: and also just don't know how to come off it,
Speaker 1: because like the way in which we structure our lives
Speaker 1: requires us to be so busy and do so many things,
Speaker 1: and then once you're at that place in life, it's like, well,
Speaker 1: how do you stop? I mean, that's the question I
Speaker 1: seem to ask myself quite a bit.
Speaker 2: Well, someone that's dedicated a lot of her time to
Speaker 2: trying to understand this is israd isra Is New York based.
Speaker 2: She's a psychotherapist and she's the all of the brand
Speaker 2: new book Toxic Productivity. I actually have a hard time
Speaker 2: saying that because my head wants to say toxic positivity,
Speaker 2: toxic productivity, and today we're going to unpack exactly what
Speaker 2: that is.
Speaker 3: How we think we can let go of our.
Speaker 2: Belief that our value is defined by how busy and
Speaker 2: successful we feel.
Speaker 3: Ezra, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 4: Hi.
Speaker 5: I'm so excited to chat with the both of you.
Speaker 5: You're literally on the other side of the world for me,
Speaker 5: so it's really nice to kind of chat with people
Speaker 5: who are in so far away places and get their
Speaker 5: perspective as well.
Speaker 1: Well. I mean, I think the interesting thing is that
Speaker 1: regardless of being on literally the opposite side of the world,
Speaker 1: I feel like the sentiment is the same. It doesn't
Speaker 1: matter where you are, especially when you're in this phase
Speaker 1: of life, and particularly for a woman as well. We
Speaker 1: start every episode the same way. It's cat an accidentally
Speaker 1: unfiltered story. You said. Unfortunately, you do have an embarrassing
Speaker 1: story to share with us, and I can't wait to
Speaker 1: hear it.
Speaker 5: Ugh, it was literally the cringiest moment of my life
Speaker 5: and I can now talk about it without out from embarrassment.
Speaker 5: So I used to work at a startup and I
Speaker 5: had transitioned from like being a therapist to working at
Speaker 5: a startup in like operations, and a lot of tech
Speaker 5: tools were new for me, like Slack and Zoom and
Speaker 5: Excel because therapists pre pandemic were not using any of
Speaker 5: this stuff, right, everybody was going into therapy offices. And
Speaker 5: I remember we were pitching to a client which was
Speaker 5: an external business client, and I was the one who
Speaker 5: was presenting, and I was supposed to share my screen
Speaker 5: and I literally shared the wrong screen that had a
Speaker 5: Slack open where a group of co workers were talking
Speaker 5: about that client.
Speaker 4: It was the most embarrassed.
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh god, it was horrible.
Speaker 4: I did not even realize it.
Speaker 1: What did the slack say.
Speaker 5: They were just kind of talking about the difficulties of
Speaker 5: working with this client and trying to, like, you know.
Speaker 4: Close the deal.
Speaker 5: And I did not even realize it until somebody on
Speaker 5: the client side said I think you're sharing the wrong screen.
Speaker 4: I got fired for a day.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I got fired for the one day. He took
Speaker 5: me back like literally the next day, but I did
Speaker 5: get fired for that one day. The learning was don't
Speaker 5: talk on any other communication channels while presenting, Like just
Speaker 5: don't do it.
Speaker 4: That was my learning.
Speaker 1: But also it's not fair that you're the one that
Speaker 1: gets into trouble for that, because that is an easy
Speaker 1: mistake to make. The bigger mistake there is everyone bitching
Speaker 1: in slack about the client, like that's the I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe there's a few lessons to learn about story.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 3: I think there are multiple people that fault here.
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's some kind of sentiment somewhere that says
Speaker 2: that I shall not gossip or something like about my
Speaker 2: shitty clients.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people have heard of the
Speaker 1: concept of toxic productivity, and I think in the name itself,
Speaker 1: it kind of self explains what it is. But I'm
Speaker 1: really interested in how does one define when productivity becomes toxic?
Speaker 1: Like when does the overachieving and the want to do
Speaker 1: more slip into an area where it's no longer healthy
Speaker 1: for us and no longer serving us.
Speaker 5: I think the biggest red flag to look out for
Speaker 5: to understand whether or not your productivity is toxic or
Speaker 5: not is whether the outcome that you are pursuing is
Speaker 5: connected to how you view yourself in relation to other people,
Speaker 5: in relation to your community, your family, your work. So
Speaker 5: that's like a really big sign because our productivity is
Speaker 5: healthy if we're pursuing it and failure doesn't shatter our
Speaker 5: self worth, right, But if our self worth is completely
Speaker 5: contingent on the outcome, then our productivity has moved away
Speaker 5: from just trying to achieve things to a place of
Speaker 5: trying to prove our value and our worth in our communities,
Speaker 5: in our workplace relationships. That's one sign. The other sign
Speaker 5: is when you don't really know the why behind what
Speaker 5: you're doing. So a lot of a just kind of
Speaker 5: do stuff because other people are doing it. We're competing
Speaker 5: with other people, our parents have told us to do
Speaker 5: it right, and we're just kind of on the hamster wheel.
Speaker 4: But we have no intentionality.
Speaker 5: We just have these arbitrary goals like I have to
Speaker 5: buy a house before thirty five, I have to be
Speaker 5: married by thirty I need to have all of my
Speaker 5: kids before thirty two, I need to have X salary
Speaker 5: before thirty eight, Like we have all of these timelines,
Speaker 5: but there's no rationale behind it. And so that's also
Speaker 5: like why are you pursuing what you're pursuing? That can
Speaker 5: move you into the realm of toxic productivity. And the
Speaker 5: final one is when your productivity comes at the cost
Speaker 5: of other equally important things in life. So your wellness,
Speaker 5: your health, your relationships all become secondary to the pursuit,
Speaker 5: and that's when your productivity becomes unhealthy.
Speaker 2: As you were saying that, I was asking myself a
Speaker 2: lot of questions, and I think it's become so much
Speaker 2: worse with the introduction and the takeover of social media,
Speaker 2: because there's this constant comparison culture. So one time we
Speaker 2: might have been pretty content with just going to our
Speaker 2: nine to five, coming home, spending time with the kids,
Speaker 2: going to bed, but now we're seeing everyone else over achieve.
Speaker 2: Everyone else is starting their little businesses, So all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, you think, oh, well, should I be doing that?
Speaker 3: Should I?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, they've bought this property with farm? Should
Speaker 2: I be doing that? And I think that that's what
Speaker 2: feeds back into this pretty toxic loop of wanting to
Speaker 2: do more but not understanding why. And even when you
Speaker 2: just said that, in my head, I'm constantly saying to
Speaker 2: myself why I need to start a business. And I
Speaker 2: think that's because Laura has one. I'm like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: we're the same person and Laura's doing it, should I
Speaker 2: be doing it? But then there's the other half of
Speaker 2: me that says, well, I actually really like my life balance,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: And that's what I meant before when I was talking
Speaker 1: about how do you get off that hamster wheel? There
Speaker 1: does come a point where you cannot do everything and
Speaker 1: you are sacrificing parts of your life. And I think
Speaker 1: a big thing that we ultimately sacrifice. When you're someone
Speaker 1: who prioritizes work, often the thing that you sacrifice is
Speaker 1: your relationships, whether that's your relationships with your friend, or
Speaker 1: your relationships with your romantic partner, or even sometimes time
Speaker 1: with your kids. Like there is all as an inherent
Speaker 1: sacrifice that happens. Can you talk us through Ezra around
Speaker 1: where this can apply to different parts of life? Are
Speaker 1: we solely talking about work or does it these affect
Speaker 1: other areas of our lives as well.
Speaker 5: I think in the last twenty five thirty ish years
Speaker 5: it has really changed because the relationship we have to
Speaker 5: work has changed. Like thirty years ago, when my dad
Speaker 5: would come home from work like that was it. If
Speaker 5: his boss needed something, he'd have to wait till the
Speaker 5: next day, right, So what's happened is our work culture
Speaker 5: has permeated the rest of our life. And what that's
Speaker 5: done is this mindset has permeated.
Speaker 4: The rest of our life.
Speaker 5: So not only are we bringing our work home and
Speaker 5: there's no boundaries the way we operate at work, which
Speaker 5: is about efficiency and optimizing, maximizing competition, right achievement oriented,
Speaker 5: goal oriented mindset. We've taken that and we've put it
Speaker 5: into our romantic relationships, our friendships, our personal health, our parenting.
Speaker 5: It actually permeates a lot of different domains now. And
Speaker 5: the research also shows that what burnout used to be
Speaker 5: considered just a workplace issue, the latest research is showing
Speaker 5: that you can actually burn out in a romantic relationship,
Speaker 5: you can experience burnout as a parent for young kids
Speaker 5: or caring for elderly parents yourself, And so this mindset
Speaker 5: can really show up anywhere because it's a framework. It's
Speaker 5: a framework that we take to our life and it's
Speaker 5: rooted in how good we want to feel. So if
Speaker 5: you don't feel good about yourself, you're going to find
Speaker 5: many different ways to tap into this mindset so that
Speaker 5: you can feel good about yourself.
Speaker 1: Is this something that you personally had skin in the
Speaker 1: game with, like as someone who has written a book
Speaker 1: on it, who has dedicated their research to it. What
Speaker 1: was your experience with toxic productivity?
Speaker 5: Yes, I definitely have. I will use present tense I
Speaker 5: have in the game in this. I literally canceled the
Speaker 5: doctor's appointment this morning because I was I just had
Speaker 5: so many stacked meetings and I had to go to
Speaker 5: the gym because I hadn't gone to the gym in
Speaker 5: like four weeks.
Speaker 4: So I literally canceled my doctor's apartment.
Speaker 5: So that's the trade off, right, Like you're constantly doing
Speaker 5: a trade off. And I'm very mindful of this right
Speaker 5: now because I know I'm in a season because I'm
Speaker 5: doing a lot of interviews for the book coming up,
Speaker 5: So I'm looking at this as a sprint. But I
Speaker 5: think five, five to six years ago, this was my
Speaker 5: whole life. So right now it's exceptional for me to
Speaker 5: be in this mindset where I can tap into it
Speaker 5: when I need to. Five years ago, up up until
Speaker 5: five years ago, it was just the way I lived
Speaker 5: my life, and I thought that that is the way
Speaker 5: you're supposed to live if you want to be ambitious.
Speaker 5: So to me, there was no distinction between ambitious and unhealthy,
Speaker 5: Like I.
Speaker 4: Was stressed out all the time.
Speaker 5: Well, that's just a byproduct of being ambitious, you know,
Speaker 5: like I don't have time to eat, I'm like rushing
Speaker 5: through things. Oh well, that's just what happens if you're
Speaker 5: like an ambitious person. That's just what happens if you
Speaker 5: are trying to make things happen. And so you accept
Speaker 5: that this is just a truth, right, But it's not.
Speaker 5: And I think like a turning point came for me
Speaker 5: because I didn't hit a breaking point, but I definitely
Speaker 5: hit a turning point.
Speaker 4: And the turning point for.
Speaker 5: Me was that I realized that all of the things
Speaker 5: that I had set this like stage four or you know,
Speaker 5: planted the seats for in my late twenties early thirties ish,
Speaker 5: which I was getting the result of, wasn't actually making
Speaker 5: me feel happy. So I had done the hustle, and
Speaker 5: I'd done all the things, and I just you know,
Speaker 5: put in all of my efforts into being multifaceted and
Speaker 5: doing like so many things. But like five years ago,
Speaker 5: I was getting their return, but I wasn't getting the feeling.
Speaker 5: I still felt like I should do more. I still
Speaker 5: felt like this wasn't enough, like I need to keep
Speaker 5: doing it. And so I started feeling really disconnected from
Speaker 5: my life. I was very disengaged.
Speaker 6: Do you think we become addicted to stress?
Speaker 5: I think like at a physiological level there is a
Speaker 5: component of because very familiar with the state of stress
Speaker 5: in your body, it doesn't really act as like an
Speaker 5: actual addiction. So I sometimes feel like hesitant to use
Speaker 5: that word, because like addiction is such a complex physical thing.
Speaker 5: But I think there are aspects of it. There are
Speaker 5: aspects of addictive behaviors towards stress, because we become very
Speaker 5: You might have heard people say things like, oh, I
Speaker 5: feel the most comfortable in chaos, or I do my
Speaker 5: best work under pressure, right, I write my best papers
Speaker 5: two nights before it's due. And that's really because the
Speaker 5: chaotic state of a dysregulated nervous system and stress hormones
Speaker 5: becomes familiar, and so our mind puts working hard success
Speaker 5: and that dysregulated feeling together, and so we do become
Speaker 5: a little dependent on needing.
Speaker 1: That It's so funny you say that because even here
Speaker 1: at left un cut, motto is don't worry, we thrive
Speaker 1: in chaos, which.
Speaker 3: Is such a dumb motto. We need to get a
Speaker 3: new one. We don't want to thrive, we want to
Speaker 3: just thrive.
Speaker 1: Producercation just looked up as you said that and was like, ah,
Speaker 1: fucking guilty.
Speaker 6: No, we want to thrive in we want to thriving peace.
Speaker 5: I didn't mean it like that, but I do think
Speaker 5: that there is a strength to people who can thrive
Speaker 5: in that because I can, like you can throw shit
Speaker 5: at me and I'll manage it, I will navigate it.
Speaker 5: So I have a lot of self trust. But we
Speaker 5: don't want our default setting to be thriving in chaos.
Speaker 5: We do need to be able to do it.
Speaker 1: I latched onto something that you said then around your
Speaker 1: own experience of like feeling as though you needed to
Speaker 1: do more. And I mean, I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people do have this, especially if you are someone who
Speaker 1: is entrepreneurial or you're a business woman. This feeling is
Speaker 1: of like it's not enough, and it's not about the money,
Speaker 1: it's not about the achievements, even like and I'm conscious
Speaker 1: about making it about myself, like I feel guilty when
Speaker 1: I'm not doing something. I almost have this thought that
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not doing enough. But like, how do
Speaker 1: you kind of rewire that in your brain and how
Speaker 1: do you sit with that? Because it really is something
Speaker 1: that I think a lot of people experience this feeling
Speaker 1: of lack but it's not enough. I need to be
Speaker 1: doing more. It's like a guilt when you're not doing
Speaker 1: something when you're relaxing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So that's known as productivity guilt, and a lot
Speaker 5: of people feel it. So if you're not being productive,
Speaker 5: you feel guilty, and guilty is guilt is an emotion
Speaker 5: that tells you that you're doing something wrong, and that's
Speaker 5: why to alleviate guilt, we want to act and change
Speaker 5: something in our environment so we don't feel like we're
Speaker 5: doing something wrong right. And it's different from shame, which
Speaker 5: is telling you that you are wrong, so you are
Speaker 5: not good enough versus I'm not doing something good enough right,
Speaker 5: And we can have both productivity shame and guilt. But
Speaker 5: I think one of the reasons we feel productivity guilt
Speaker 5: is because our models of success are often overworked people.
Speaker 5: So you might look at a parent figure who's very successful,
Speaker 5: and they might have been people who woke up early
Speaker 5: and made the cookies and went to work and were
Speaker 5: part of PETA. Like you might have parents who are
Speaker 5: very overfunctioning, right, because my parents definitely perc very overfunctioning,
Speaker 5: and so that's one thing we see, you know, pop
Speaker 5: culture models of success. What does that look like somebody
Speaker 5: who's overfunctioning. And then you go into school, like at
Speaker 5: a foundational level, and you learn that if you're idle,
Speaker 5: you're not doing something right, like you're missing something, you're
Speaker 5: forgetting something, and so this idea of resting being harmful
Speaker 5: becomes very solidified in our mind, and so our body
Speaker 5: is not used to it, and so we get very
Speaker 5: overwhelmed when we are not doing something. Coupled with that
Speaker 5: is the nebulous goals. Like if you think back to
Speaker 5: when you were younger and you were setting goals for
Speaker 5: yourself or even right now for this podcast, for your business,
Speaker 5: for your families, the goals are often really nebulous and
Speaker 5: they're not like very concrete, and so what happens is
Speaker 5: we don't have a good definition of enough, especially like
Speaker 5: for so I sometimes work with founders around like founder
Speaker 5: mental Health, and one of the most common things I
Speaker 5: see is they have these external achievement markers and a
Speaker 5: very vague goal of what is good enough. So if
Speaker 5: you don't intentionally design what enough feels like, nothing is
Speaker 5: going to feel enough. So I think those are the
Speaker 5: two things, as like learning how to incorporate rest and
Speaker 5: regulate the feelings of guilt and having a very clear
Speaker 5: intention about what you're pursuing.
Speaker 2: Off what you said, Laura, when you're like I feel
Speaker 2: guilty if I stopped for a second, I think it's
Speaker 2: because it's a learned trait. You don't know any different
Speaker 2: for so many years. You run your businesses and you
Speaker 2: have your kids. And I remember when we started this podcast.
Speaker 2: We're a few years deep, and I was a hospital worker,
Speaker 2: so I was doing shift work, doing this on the side.
Speaker 2: We're doing this all hours of the day, like it
Speaker 2: was NonStop. There wasn't one day off. And I had
Speaker 2: a really hard time when it was time to give
Speaker 2: up my hospital work and just do this, because what
Speaker 2: it did give me was a few extra days a
Speaker 2: week that I was like, I actually have time to
Speaker 2: do something I want to do right now. And at
Speaker 2: the start, I was filled with so much guilt that
Speaker 2: I thought I'm going to do all these extra things
Speaker 2: to film me days. Very slowly I started to just
Speaker 2: start to enjoy those days off, and now I can
Speaker 2: genuinely say I'm happily in a place where if I
Speaker 2: have a complete day off where I do not do
Speaker 2: one bit of work. I don't feel any guilt because
Speaker 2: I've redefined my own idea of success, and my personal
Speaker 2: idea of success is to live a comfortable life with
Speaker 2: work life balance. Success for someone else might look differently.
Speaker 2: It might be all the big mansions or the cars.
Speaker 2: But for me, I want to be able to go
Speaker 2: for a swim and go to the gym and go
Speaker 2: to a sauna, but also have a job that fills me.
Speaker 2: And I've managed to do that, but it took a
Speaker 2: long time of introducing those feelings. So if you're never
Speaker 2: going to introduce a day off or go into the
Speaker 2: gym for yourself, your body can't regulate the feeling because
Speaker 2: you don't know what it is.
Speaker 3: Have I said the right thing? Am I explaining myself?
Speaker 1: Well, because you're the other doctor here?
Speaker 4: No, No, no, not at all, Not at all. I
Speaker 4: think you're absolutely correct.
Speaker 5: Because when we are not familiar with something, it feels
Speaker 5: scary and dangerous, and our mind cannot always differentiate between
Speaker 5: healthy and harmful or happy and sad. The only thing
Speaker 5: your mind can naturally look for is is this a
Speaker 5: threatening situation? And unfamiliar is threatening to our mind. Right,
Speaker 5: So that's why sometimes good habits are so hard to build.
Speaker 5: It's because they're unfamiliar and your mind is like read alert,
Speaker 5: like no, no, no, we don't do this.
Speaker 4: We don't do this at all.
Speaker 5: Like let's just say safe and safe can be a
Speaker 5: harmful habit that's a comfort zone for you. There's this
Speaker 5: really great quote that I love, and I put it
Speaker 5: in the book as well. It's from Mary Estelle. It's
Speaker 5: from like literally the seventeen or eighteen hundreds, but it
Speaker 5: goes something like, we go on and vice because we
Speaker 5: are unacquainted with the joys of virtue. So I think, like,
Speaker 5: that's the same thing is we are so as a society,
Speaker 5: we are so unacquainted with the joys of resting, having boundaries,
Speaker 5: having a clear definition of what enough feels like, having intentions.
Speaker 5: Like we're just so unacquainted with that. Because the moment
Speaker 5: you start school, the moment you start school, it changes.
Speaker 5: People are telling you what you have to do, what
Speaker 5: you need to do, collect all the gold stars, be
Speaker 5: like the other kids. Right, here's all these seventeen extracurriculars
Speaker 5: that you have to excel at.
Speaker 4: So like it just begins so early.
Speaker 1: Do you think as well that there are personality types
Speaker 1: that are more prone to this type of over committing
Speaker 1: and toxic productivity. For example, I would assume that people
Speaker 1: who have people pleasing tendencies, who really want to be
Speaker 1: almost told that they're doing a good job will prove
Speaker 1: that they're doing a good job, may be more aligned
Speaker 1: with this type of overloading their life.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so there's definitely a couple of emotional dynamics that
Speaker 5: are running the show. So the need for external validation
Speaker 5: can look like people pleasing, but it can also look
Speaker 5: like somebody who's a workaholic. Right, So the foundation is
Speaker 5: external validation. The foundation is not really feeling a sense
Speaker 5: of belonging, So utilizing achievement as a way to connect
Speaker 5: with other people and realizing that when you are doing
Speaker 5: things people love you. These are the three things that
Speaker 5: are happening in the background, and so this can show
Speaker 5: up as people pleasing as being a workolic. Sometimes birth
Speaker 5: order can get into it, right, like because you might
Speaker 5: have been the eldest child or sometimes the eldest daughter,
Speaker 5: a lot of parentification can happen, and so you feel
Speaker 5: responsible and you tend to overfunction, which means doing everything
Speaker 5: for other people. But there's not like particular personality types.
Speaker 5: But there are definitely certain people who might skew a
Speaker 5: little more this direction because of the way they were raised.
Speaker 5: So people pleasing, for example, is like a learned behavior.
Speaker 5: You learn very early that if I don't rock the boat,
Speaker 5: my parents will be happy. If I don't say what
Speaker 5: I need, I don't stress out my mom or my dad,
Speaker 5: Like it can happen as early as like age one
Speaker 5: or two, where you learn safety, because people pleasing as
Speaker 5: a safety mechanism. Right, It's not helpful as an adult,
Speaker 5: but it can be when you're a child. So it's
Speaker 5: really like this idea around toxic productivity is very much
Speaker 5: a learned behavior. Perfectionism and toxic productivity very much.
Speaker 4: Go hand in hand. I find that the.
Speaker 5: Perfectionism literature, the stuff I was reading to me, it
Speaker 5: felt like the most in sync vehicle for toxic productivity.
Speaker 5: Like every aspect of perfectionism taps right into the mindset
Speaker 5: and our culture, our hustle culture, you know, late stage
Speaker 5: capitalism really hones in on it and glorifies it. Perfectionism
Speaker 5: is one of those few emotional dysfunctions that are highly
Speaker 5: glorified and rewarded, because at the end of the day,
Speaker 5: perfectionism is just anxiety, right. It is anxiety manifesting itself
Speaker 5: as a way to control things. You are so anxious
Speaker 5: about what the outcome could be, what somebody else might
Speaker 5: think of you, what a mistake might mean for you,
Speaker 5: that things need to be perfect.
Speaker 4: It's just exercising control.
Speaker 5: And there's three forms of perfectionism, right, So there's one
Speaker 5: that I demand for myself, there's one that I demand
Speaker 5: from you, and there's one where I need you to
Speaker 5: see me as perfect. There's like three domains of perfectionism,
Speaker 5: and all of them fit into toxic productivity. The more
Speaker 5: perfectionist you are, the more productive you're going to want
Speaker 5: to be like someone in an unhealthy way.
Speaker 1: I feel like very pointed.
Speaker 6: Right now, there's a pestonal therapy session for Laura.
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, I'm just out here attacking you, like
Speaker 5: since the moment I got on.
Speaker 4: I'm so sorry, Like, but like.
Speaker 5: These these are good things, Like this is a safe conversation.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people can identify with this,
Speaker 1: and like we've covered like a lot of women. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know whether it is just gendered. But I
Speaker 1: do think a lot of women, especially who are juggling
Speaker 1: households and also now in the world we live in,
Speaker 1: juggling really successful businesses. They're often running households and also
Speaker 1: other main income earners in their own homes as well.
Speaker 1: Do you think that there is often a sense of, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: I'll prioritize myself down the track, like I'll finish this bit,
Speaker 1: I'll get through this thing, I'll an X amount of money,
Speaker 1: or I'll you know, get this business set up to
Speaker 1: a place where it's stable, and then I'll focus on myself,
Speaker 1: my relationships, all these other things that we all know
Speaker 1: should be priorities in life. I don't think that people
Speaker 1: intentionally want to be on the hustle culture train for forever.
Speaker 1: It's almost just pushing their own happiness down the road
Speaker 1: a little bit and they think that they'll get to
Speaker 1: it when they can.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I literally did it this morning. I was like,
Speaker 5: I'll go to the doctor after this book comes out,
Speaker 5: and so like, it's very easy to disregard yourself. Unfortunately,
Speaker 5: it's very easy for everybody to disregard themselves, irrespective of gender. However,
Speaker 5: there is a very undue pressure on the modern woman today,
Speaker 5: whether you are married or not, children or not, there
Speaker 5: is this dichotomy of needing to be very successful in
Speaker 5: the workplace yet still maintaining some of that traditional domestic
Speaker 5: labor which predominantly falls on women, right, And it doesn't
Speaker 5: even matter what culture you are, Like, this is across
Speaker 5: the board. And I think that's why you're seeing so
Speaker 5: many high numbers of women not wanting to get married
Speaker 5: and have kids because one of the reasons they cite
Speaker 5: is that And I mean, I'm married, so like there's
Speaker 5: pros and constant both things. But I think the research
Speaker 5: is just showing that our society needs to change a
Speaker 5: little bit. But yeah, I do agree that there is
Speaker 5: like a little bit of like a gender divide in
Speaker 5: the way this manifests itself. The myth is that, oh,
Speaker 5: the next milestone is going to be it. That's the
Speaker 5: milestone I'm going to arrive at. But that actually doesn't
Speaker 5: happen because when we are in this like toxic productivity mindset,
Speaker 5: we don't actually stop to celebrate small achievements. We're not
Speaker 5: really looking at the small picture. We're always looking at
Speaker 5: the big picture. And so what happens is when you
Speaker 5: arrive at the finish line, you're so unaccustomed to celebrating
Speaker 5: yourself that you're like, no, no, there has to be something else,
Speaker 5: like I have to like there's a new goal that
Speaker 5: you will set. So there is this like moving goalpost.
Speaker 5: Like think about it yourself. You might have said, you
Speaker 5: know what, once I hit X amount of revenue, that's it.
Speaker 5: I'm not going to do anything. But when you hit
Speaker 5: that X amount of revenue, another opportunity will present itself,
Speaker 5: because now you've crossed the threshold of revenue, and then
Speaker 5: you're gonna be like, you know what, maybe I will
Speaker 5: do this this one more thing, And then the same
Speaker 5: thing happens over and over and over again. It's because
Speaker 5: we don't learn how to celebrate small things. And I
Speaker 5: know it sounds so trite and like everybody says like
Speaker 5: celebrate your winds and whatever, and you see it on
Speaker 5: like quotes that you can put over your bed, but
Speaker 5: it's actually true, like this is a very true fact
Speaker 5: that we need to learn how to practice gratitude without
Speaker 5: feeling like we are feeling ambitious.
Speaker 2: But I also think it's it's a generational thing, even
Speaker 2: if it's unintentional. I think a lot of people don't
Speaker 2: have the choice not to hustle anymore, and that's just
Speaker 2: because of things like the cost of living.
Speaker 3: So I think that even if it's you're not.
Speaker 2: The perfectionist and the character traits that you said before,
Speaker 2: some people don't get the choice but to have to
Speaker 2: hustle just to survive.
Speaker 5: Absolutely I completely agree, and know there's like a lot
Speaker 5: of great books that do talk about like rest and
Speaker 5: taking breaks as being privileges, which I'm super mindful of,
Speaker 5: and I mentioned this a little in my book as well,
Speaker 5: because like my parents did not have this privilege. There
Speaker 5: are you know, immigrants twice in two different countries.
Speaker 4: They did not have a choice at all.
Speaker 5: But what I think, what I want people to take
Speaker 5: away from my work is that you might not be
Speaker 5: able to control all of your circumstances, but you can
Speaker 5: create small pockets of peace and joy in your day.
Speaker 5: And it doesn't have to look big, it doesn't have
Speaker 5: to be long, it doesn't have to require money. It
Speaker 5: does require a shift of perspective. So there are many
Speaker 5: people in this world who, unfortunately do have to work
Speaker 5: multiple jobs just to literally keep the lights on. Right,
Speaker 5: Inflation is increasing globally everywhere. However, that being said, how
Speaker 5: do we disconnect how good we feel about ourselves from
Speaker 5: our outcome? Like, yes, you have to work and make money, absolutely,
Speaker 5: but who you are should not be contingent on that.
Speaker 5: How good you feel about yourself should not be contingent
Speaker 5: on that, right, because when that happens and people lose
Speaker 5: their jobs, like, really bad outcomes can occur, like and
Speaker 5: we saw this in the pandemic, right, Like a lot
Speaker 5: of people ended their lives because their livelihoods ended and
Speaker 5: it becomes too overwhelming. And I think that's what I want.
Speaker 5: I want people to have just like pockets of peace
Speaker 5: in their day. And that's why I'm a really big
Speaker 5: fan of micro habits. Like I'm never saying that someone
Speaker 5: should do something for sixty minutes.
Speaker 6: So what do you mean by a macro habit? Let's
Speaker 6: expand on that a little bit.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so a micro habit is literally doing the smallest
Speaker 5: unit of behavior change that makes sense in your day
Speaker 5: to get an impact. Right, So that can look like
Speaker 5: if you're a really busy person and you can't work
Speaker 5: out for sixty minutes a day, see if you can
Speaker 5: work out for twenty minutes and really give it your all.
Speaker 4: I used to do.
Speaker 5: Ninety second meditations in between meetings because obviously after that
Speaker 5: embarrassing incident, I was like on probation, so I was
Speaker 5: very stressed out. I was very stressed out, and I
Speaker 5: was like just so in my head. But the more
Speaker 5: stressed out I was, the more the quality of my
Speaker 5: work was suffering.
Speaker 4: Like it wasn't making me a better worker.
Speaker 5: I was just like in my head, right, So I
Speaker 5: started doing like ninety second meditations in between meetings, and
Speaker 5: when I tell you that, it had the same impact
Speaker 5: as it does when I do like a fifteen minute
Speaker 5: it was the same. Just regulating my body. That's a
Speaker 5: micro habit. A microhabit can be not opening your email
Speaker 5: while having breakfast. Small thing, right, how long do we
Speaker 5: have breakfast for on a weekday? Probably ten minutes, Like
Speaker 5: that's how long I take to eat my yogurt bowl.
Speaker 5: But I won't open Instagram, I don't read the news,
Speaker 5: and I won't read my email when I'm eating breakfast.
Speaker 5: So these are just like very very small things. Like
Speaker 5: let's say you get home, Laura, and you know you
Speaker 5: have like a full evening with your kids and everything,
Speaker 5: sit in your car for three minutes and just do
Speaker 5: like a doodling exercise and cry.
Speaker 1: She does that, I mean, sure you can.
Speaker 4: Yeah, crying is a great regulator.
Speaker 5: By the way, I literally cried earlier today twice because
Speaker 5: TikTok just sometimes has the saddest videos of like I
Speaker 5: don't know, like all people dancing, or like siblings hugging
Speaker 5: each other when they're children, and I'm just like crying.
Speaker 4: But it's a great regulator.
Speaker 1: It's from changing micro habits and creating small behavioral changes.
Speaker 1: What are some other things that we can do, because
Speaker 1: it really does feel like we live in a culture
Speaker 1: where the framework of that culture is built for us
Speaker 1: to constantly be productive, trust to wheel, Yeah, constantly be striving.
Speaker 1: And it's it is really really hard to go against
Speaker 1: what feels as though is the norm.
Speaker 5: If you're listening to this and you're like, Okay, maybe
Speaker 5: I feel like I'm on a hamster wheel, but there's
Speaker 5: no way I can do anything differently, Like, my life
Speaker 5: is my life. I love my life. That's one of
Speaker 5: the things a lot of my clients say sometimes to me.
Speaker 5: They're like, well, I love my life, like I love
Speaker 5: for the way I live, Like why would I change it?
Speaker 5: And that to me shows that there's a little bit
Speaker 5: of a disconnect between how you're feeling and how you
Speaker 5: view your life, because you might be feeling miserable, but
Speaker 5: you're slogging through life because you're getting the outcomes that
Speaker 5: you want.
Speaker 4: But you're miserable all day.
Speaker 5: You're snappy with your partner or your friends right, like
Speaker 5: your health is very poor. So I think one of
Speaker 5: the things that's really helpful and this really helped me,
Speaker 5: especially when you're trapped in this mindset that I have
Speaker 5: to do the things I'm doing like I must of course,
Speaker 5: like why would I not do them? Is to genuinely
Speaker 5: sit down and be very honest with yourself. You could
Speaker 5: do it with a friend who you are very comfortable
Speaker 5: with and they're somebody who will be honest with you
Speaker 5: and just reflect on just reflect on the last three
Speaker 5: weeks of what you did and for every single thing
Speaker 5: that you committed yourself to, ask yourself, did I have
Speaker 5: to do this right? Why did I do this? And
Speaker 5: did I get the outcome I wanted? Like do this
Speaker 5: kind of audit of your time and energy spent. Time
Speaker 5: and energy are like they're kind of like finite resources.
Speaker 5: You can't you don't have unending energy either, right unless
Speaker 5: you fill it up. So I think, like doing an
Speaker 5: audit is really helpful because what I learned as somebody
Speaker 5: who was overfunctioning going out every single damn day like this,
Speaker 5: this girl was going out seven days a week. It
Speaker 5: was ridiculous saying yes to absolutely everything without even having
Speaker 5: even a sliver of intention. When I did this audit
Speaker 5: and I really sat down, I created a chart and
Speaker 5: I wrote down like did I actually have to do this?
Speaker 5: Did I get the ROI I wanted? Like what was
Speaker 5: I even hoping for doing this? I realized that there
Speaker 5: was a lot of stuff in there that I could
Speaker 5: have just said no to, Like there was a lot
Speaker 5: of things that I felt compelled that I had to
Speaker 5: do that I really didn't need to do. And even
Speaker 5: as like a parent, you can think about it and say, like,
Speaker 5: do I really need to put my kids in five
Speaker 5: different things? Because that's five things that I also have
Speaker 5: to commit to. Right As somebody who was dating, you
Speaker 5: have to think about like do I really have to
Speaker 5: go out on unintentional dates seven nights a week?
Speaker 4: Like do I have to? Or can I have intentional dates?
Speaker 4: But I have like two a week?
Speaker 5: Right, So I think it's like thinking through those type
Speaker 5: of things that's really important.
Speaker 2: I think a really huge life shift for me was
Speaker 2: when I'm thirty seven, and it probably happened in my
Speaker 2: early thirties, was when I understood that the power of
Speaker 2: saying no to something that you don't want to do.
Speaker 2: Because so often when you say I used to go
Speaker 2: out seven nights a week, I could think of nothing
Speaker 2: worse that gives me anxiety. But I used to do it,
Speaker 2: and the guilt from saying no. The guilt didn't come
Speaker 2: from letting my friends down, because I don't think they
Speaker 2: could care less if I went. The guilt was on myself.
Speaker 2: I used to be like, what a loser like? You
Speaker 2: can't spend your life inside with your dog, you know.
Speaker 2: I used to convince myself that I had to live
Speaker 2: my best life. I had to always be socializing, but
Speaker 2: that's not how I fill my cup, and that is
Speaker 2: not me personally living my best life. So I think
Speaker 2: once you can start to be exactly what you just said,
Speaker 2: super intentional about what it is that you want in
Speaker 2: your life and what fills your cup, and then realizing
Speaker 2: that no doesn't have to be like a nasty dirty word.
Speaker 2: We spoke about before what this productivity, this toxic productivity
Speaker 2: can do to you physically in terms of burnout and stress.
Speaker 2: And we know the effects stress can have on the body.
Speaker 3: But what does this have?
Speaker 6: What effect does this having a relationship.
Speaker 5: When you are very disengaged from your values, right, that's
Speaker 5: what tassi productivity does. Like in your example, you're going
Speaker 5: out and doing all these things, but that's not what
Speaker 5: your values are.
Speaker 4: You're just doing what you're doing.
Speaker 5: Right. What that does is it like creates a gap
Speaker 5: between how you show up and who you really are
Speaker 5: in relationships, So you might push productivity based agendas on
Speaker 5: your partner or your friend, right that you're just kind
Speaker 5: of forcing them to do things because you think you
Speaker 5: have to do them because they're so important to you.
Speaker 5: When we're trapping this mindset, everything feels mission critical everything,
Speaker 5: so you become very critical of other people, you become
Speaker 5: critical of yourself. You can't tolerate mistakes, and all of
Speaker 5: that erodes trust in a relationship. Like if your partner
Speaker 5: or your child or your friend feels like they have
Speaker 5: to walk around on like eggshells around you because you
Speaker 5: don't take mistakes really well, or you demand perfection from them,
Speaker 5: and that can really erode a relationship. The other thing
Speaker 5: it also does is when you're physically stressed out, you
Speaker 5: can't be very emotionally present for another person. You're irritable,
Speaker 5: you're angry, you're disconnected. Honestly, when people get super stressed out,
Speaker 5: your sex life suffers like it has. It has this
Speaker 5: like ripple effect. And I think the core of the
Speaker 5: problem is that we don't actually pay attention to our emotions.
Speaker 5: That's the crux of toxic productivity. We have shame and guilt,
Speaker 5: the fear of missing out or what you were just
Speaker 5: talking about, brit like that inner voice telling you that
Speaker 5: you're bad, you're a loser, you're not doing things. All
Speaker 5: of those things are emotional reactions. And because we can't
Speaker 5: regulate our emotions well, because none of us retaught it,
Speaker 5: we start doing, we start moving, and then we realize
Speaker 5: that productivity is a great coping skill. If I'm productive,
Speaker 5: I don't have to think about shame. If I'm going out,
Speaker 5: I'm not going to sit at home and call myself
Speaker 5: a loser. Right, So then then we're after the races.
Speaker 5: It's very hard to stop that.
Speaker 1: How do people find that balance. I mean, so you've
Speaker 1: even mentioned a few times that for someone who studies
Speaker 1: it has written a book all about it, that you're
Speaker 1: still someone who's guilty of the practices of deprioritizing yourself
Speaker 1: and prioritizing the things that maybe essentially aren't as important.
Speaker 1: But obviously it's like they're screaming at you and you
Speaker 1: feel like you have to do them. How do we
Speaker 1: overcome this or can we overcome this?
Speaker 5: The reason I share my struggles so candidly, which again,
Speaker 5: like people would be like, well, she hasn't figured it out, Like, well,
Speaker 5: am I going to get her book? You know what?
Speaker 1: However, by God.
Speaker 5: No, the reason I shared so candidly is because I
Speaker 5: don't want to create some like imaginary distance between me
Speaker 5: and other people where they have one more person to
Speaker 5: compare themselves to. Right, It's not like I'm like some
Speaker 5: world renowned expert like Estra Parrel, but it's really it
Speaker 5: becomes even harder when you're like, Wow, that person hasn't
Speaker 5: figured out I guess there's something wrong with me. The
Speaker 5: truth is we are a constant work in progress. There
Speaker 5: is no healed version of a human being, and if
Speaker 5: anybody is peddling that message to you. They are trying
Speaker 5: to exploit you. There is no healed version, because we
Speaker 5: are constantly growing, we are constantly evolving, we're constantly changing.
Speaker 5: The key is can I bring a little bit more
Speaker 5: balance to my life than I was able to before? Right?
Speaker 4: So, right now I'm in this and I'm struggling with it.
Speaker 5: But six years ago, I didn't even have the awareness,
Speaker 5: Like I couldn't even tell you that I was struggling, right,
Speaker 5: So this is huge progress for me, for me to
Speaker 5: be able to say no to opportunities, for me to
Speaker 5: be able to say, you know what, this is a
Speaker 5: six week sprint. And after six weeks, I'm done, Like
Speaker 5: I'm not doing anything. I'm not even doing a book
Speaker 5: tour immediately. My book tour is in like two months
Speaker 5: because I'm just taking the holiday season off, right, And
Speaker 5: so that's growth, And so we are never getting to
Speaker 5: a place of completely overcoming these things that are a
Speaker 5: so deeply ingrained in us, be so rewarded in our culture,
Speaker 5: and c might be circumstantial restraints if I were to
Speaker 5: say to people, hey, you just have to heal your
Speaker 5: toxic productivity. Then if your life doesn't afford that you're
Speaker 5: going to feel bad right, and it's just unrealistic. So
Speaker 5: the goal is to constantly check in with yourself. The
Speaker 5: goal is to choose a better habit every single time
Speaker 5: if you can. The goal is to be gracious with
Speaker 5: yourself when you do make mistakes, when you do fall
Speaker 5: to old habits, you know, of coping in an unhealthy way.
Speaker 5: The goal is to have awareness and make decisions with intention.
Speaker 5: The truth is, the more we practice this stuff, the
Speaker 5: better we get at pushing it away.
Speaker 1: Do you think we ultimately just have our priorities a
Speaker 1: bit skewed up because of the way that the society's
Speaker 1: built that we've put work, We've put achievements at the
Speaker 1: top of the pile, and then family and relationships and
Speaker 1: everything else kind of comes secondary.
Speaker 5: This is like an existential question, and I do genuinely
Speaker 5: believe that contemporary culture has kind of flipped what is important,
Speaker 5: and that's why you're seeing high rates of loneliness, like
Speaker 5: extraordinarily high rates of loneliness right now across the ages.
Speaker 5: I think a report came out last summer that young
Speaker 5: adults had the highest rates of loneliness. These are like
Speaker 5: high school kids, where previously it was older post retirement
Speaker 5: adults having higher rates of loneliness. What has happened to
Speaker 5: our world where kids who see their friends every single
Speaker 5: day for eight hours are feeling lonely? Right, That's why
Speaker 5: we have so many chronic illnesses. That's why we have
Speaker 5: so many poor maternal health outcomes, because there's nobody to
Speaker 5: support these women who are having kids, because everyone's living
Speaker 5: outside of their community.
Speaker 4: Right, And this is like I could rant about this forever.
Speaker 5: This is absolutely I think that we don't you know,
Speaker 5: what's the biggest thing. We don't prioritize playfulness. Adults don't
Speaker 5: play anymore, and we don't have any kind of creativity
Speaker 5: or craft. And that's why I'm seeing this interesting U
Speaker 5: turn at least here in New York.
Speaker 4: Of like old school.
Speaker 5: Hobby clubs opening up. People are joining knitting circles. I
Speaker 5: see people go to pottery groups together. People have I mean,
Speaker 5: book clubs have been around forever. People are joining like
Speaker 5: running clubs and pickleball clubs. Like, people are really craving community,
Speaker 5: and toxic productivity thrives in a.
Speaker 4: Lack of community.
Speaker 2: I think also it's a common misconception that busy equals productive.
Speaker 3: Talk us through why that is not the case.
Speaker 5: When we are busy, we are essentially just checking off
Speaker 5: things that are not thematically.
Speaker 4: Connected to your broader goal.
Speaker 5: So you were just like checking things off because you
Speaker 5: said yes to them, you had to do them, it
Speaker 5: came up for you, But it's not actually moving the needle.
Speaker 4: Closer to your broader goal.
Speaker 5: Busyness does not have a purpose. I feel like true
Speaker 5: healthy productivity has a broader purpose, right, And we can
Speaker 5: only know what our purpose is if we sit down
Speaker 5: and make intentions and stuff. But I think sometimes you
Speaker 5: have to be busy because you have a million things
Speaker 5: to do. But if you are feeling really worn out
Speaker 5: and run down, like again, like take a look at
Speaker 5: all the things that you are committing to. Another thing
Speaker 5: is being busy makes us feel like we've done something right.
Speaker 5: So I can go through my checklist and I can
Speaker 5: be like, wow, I took off like seventeen items, but
Speaker 5: the bulk of like the thing that I really had
Speaker 5: to do. Let's say I had to write an article
Speaker 5: that still remains. Yeah, so there's that yeah, right, Like
Speaker 5: there's that purposeful activity that's literally my job.
Speaker 4: I haven't done it.
Speaker 5: But if I showed you my to do list right now,
Speaker 5: there's like seven things I'm like, do do do. And
Speaker 5: it also gives you like a really quick dopamine head.
Speaker 5: And so that's why people like doing busy work because
Speaker 5: it makes you feel good in your brain. But it
Speaker 5: busyness does not have a purpose. That's the difference.
Speaker 1: It's raight. I have enjoyed speaking to you about this
Speaker 1: so much, and I know that there are no it
Speaker 1: doesn't just happen to people who are successful working women,
Speaker 1: like I think all of us have traits of this
Speaker 1: or can be prone to it purely because of the
Speaker 1: type of society that we all function within now. But
Speaker 1: I do honestly think that if you are an entrepreneurial woman,
Speaker 1: or you are someone who is finding yourself on the
Speaker 1: hamster wheel, these are all qualities that so many people
Speaker 1: relate to, and I know that we do very much.
Speaker 1: So but I have loved understanding this and also understanding
Speaker 1: that it doesn't necessarily come with all of the solutions,
Speaker 1: because I think that that's something that I've struggled with before.
Speaker 1: Is almost like the preaching of like, well, this is
Speaker 1: how you fix the problem. And I'm never going to
Speaker 1: go from being someone who works four different jobs to
Speaker 1: being someone who sits out in the meadows and meditate.
Speaker 1: It's like the cavity between is too great and too vast.
Speaker 1: I don't think it has to be that extreme, No,
Speaker 1: I know, but I kind of When we've had conversations before,
Speaker 1: it's often like people who have all of the answers
Speaker 1: or who are doing all the practices because they've had
Speaker 1: this incredible burnout then pivot in life, Whereas I really
Speaker 1: appreciate speaking to someone who is still They're still a
Speaker 1: part and parcel of the hustle culture train. They're just
Speaker 1: doing it a little bit differently.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I think one of the most common
Speaker 5: reactions I get to the topic or the title is
Speaker 5: is this an anti productivity book? Like, you know, why
Speaker 5: are you against productivity? Productivity but against progress? And what
Speaker 5: I say to people like this is not an anti
Speaker 5: productivity book, Like I want people to be productive, I
Speaker 5: want people to be ambitious. I'm not asking you to
Speaker 5: tap out of the race. What I'm saying is be
Speaker 5: more intentional about what race you're running, and do it
Speaker 5: in a healthier way so it's sustainable, so you can
Speaker 5: do it your whole life. Like, you know, the way
Speaker 5: I was living in my twenties in my early thirties, Like,
Speaker 5: there's no way I would have had the sustainability in
Speaker 5: the longevity and the way I see my work right
Speaker 5: now and the way I make habits at certain times
Speaker 5: in my life, like I know that I could continue
Speaker 5: to do this for a very long time. The last
Speaker 5: thing I'll say is, it seems like a lot of
Speaker 5: your listeners are entrepreneurs and stuff. What I'll say to
Speaker 5: them is that your wellness, both emotional and physical, is
Speaker 5: a line item on your budget. If you are not well,
Speaker 5: then your revenue is one hundred percent going to suffer,
Speaker 5: even if you have a team. So your wellness is
Speaker 5: absolute business priority, right, And I think we have to
Speaker 5: start seeing our wellness as part of our productivity, as
Speaker 5: opposed to something that's outside of it that will get
Speaker 5: to later and we'll earn rest afterwards. Because you know,
Speaker 5: I worked with some entrepreneurs and some friends of mine
Speaker 5: who have thriving businesses, and every single one of them
Speaker 5: has said that, you know, oh, I had like this
Speaker 5: moment of burnout and then I got sick, and you
Speaker 5: know some some happened to their I think I share
Speaker 5: that one of the stories in the book is like
Speaker 5: like literally her she had this like beautiful beauty brand.
Speaker 5: It's still very successful, but they had a huge dip
Speaker 5: in the middle because she was not well right, and
Speaker 5: so she had to kind of like pick back up again,
Speaker 5: and so it's really important to think of yourself like that.
Speaker 3: Sra, thank you so much. We actually have a meditation
Speaker 3: book in now, so we have.
Speaker 4: To go, oh, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3: We don't we're joking we have another interview.
Speaker 5: I wish we did, but maybe future we'll schedule a
Speaker 5: thirty second.
Speaker 3: Yes, we'll do a thirty second meditation.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much.
Speaker 2: We're going to link all of your details and social
Speaker 2: media's and your new book in our show notes.
Speaker 6: Thank you for coming on the podcast today.
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. This was so fun.