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Speaker 1: You are listening to mix one oh four nine. If

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Speaker 1: you do want to send us a message today, zero

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Speaker 1: four double nine seven double one three six to zero

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Speaker 1: is the text line number. Now, there are claims there

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Speaker 1: to exit interview requests from police officers leaving the force

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Speaker 1: falling on DeFi is because of completely underresourced mental health

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Speaker 1: support services. That is according to a report and also

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Speaker 1: what the Police Union are currently saying. Now joining me

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Speaker 1: on the line to tell us a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about the situation, these concerns and indeed the long awaited

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Speaker 1: review into officer wellbeing is the Police Association's Lisa Bayless,

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Speaker 1: who is indeed the senior vice president. Good morning to you, Lisa.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Katie, Thanks so much for your.

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Speaker 1: Time this morning. Lisa. What's the concern firstly around the

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Speaker 1: exit interviews.

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Speaker 2: Look, we've had a lot of members who've left their force.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately over the last couple of years. It's has a

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Speaker 2: very high attrition rate. I think during COVID so during

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Speaker 2: for the morale for police, and we were told that

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Speaker 2: from them from leaving that a lot of them they

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Speaker 2: weren't provide an opportunity to participate in an exit interview.

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Speaker 2: And I know that that has a significant impact on

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Speaker 2: processes improvements that we can make, and I know that

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Speaker 2: from the Mental health review that was one of the

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Speaker 2: things that was sought to change for OUND members to

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Speaker 2: be able to have a voice when for the reasons

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Speaker 2: they're leaving well.

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Speaker 1: And I guess the big question is why are these

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Speaker 1: not happening, because presumably that actually provides some real insight

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Speaker 1: into why that attrition rate is so high. I think

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Speaker 1: the last time I've spoken to to President Paul mque

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Speaker 1: he said that it was around the eleven percent mark.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's correct, Katie, we've I mean, policing is

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Speaker 2: a difficult occupation. As you can imagine, police are faced

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Speaker 2: with some of the most horrific situations, and when you're

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Speaker 2: exposed that kind of kind of violence and trauma day

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Speaker 2: in day out, it has a it has a major

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Speaker 2: impact on their mental health and well being. And part

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Speaker 2: of that, you know, the reason we were pushing so

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Speaker 2: hard for an independent of view over a number of

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Speaker 2: years is because we saw that there was a significant

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Speaker 2: gap in what was actually been provided for police. We're

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Speaker 2: meant to be funded for five psychologists, but unfortunately've only

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Speaker 2: got two. And I know that there is a difficulty

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Speaker 2: in recruiting, in recruiting this particular occupation, but more so

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Speaker 2: the last couple of years. So we're really struggling in

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Speaker 2: that space.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, well, and when you talk about that

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Speaker 1: there's meant to be five psychologists only two at this

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Speaker 1: point in time, when you know reportedly and certainly from

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Speaker 1: some of the things that some of the you know,

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Speaker 1: the tragic situations that have unfolded in recent years. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I would you would think, even though it is difficult

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Speaker 1: to recruit them, you would think that we would hopefully

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Speaker 1: be in a situation where you've got the support that's

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Speaker 1: that's required for the force.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it's really unfortunate that over the last

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Speaker 2: couple of years, a lot of jurisdictions around the country

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Speaker 2: they've they've just undertaken some terrific work in this space.

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Speaker 2: But the Norman churchly, I think we've been left a

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Speaker 2: little bit behind. We've had very to date, very little

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Speaker 2: proactive measures and the unlimited reactive support for members who

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Speaker 2: do need that help. And in particular Hour of Springs

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Speaker 2: we have they've been in struggling for years to get

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Speaker 2: someone permanently working in the capacity down there and at present,

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Speaker 2: there's actually none currently station we have a they do

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Speaker 2: like a locational system from lines layout from Darwin, but

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Speaker 2: unfortunately we have we've had it's just had a significant

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Speaker 2: impact on members. And it's not just a psychologist, it's

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Speaker 2: the whole. It's that that's the reason for the review.

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Speaker 2: It's it's a whole holistic approach for supporting members. We've

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Speaker 2: got a health and well being officers, we have the

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Speaker 2: chaplain program, and we just don't have enough. We don't

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Speaker 2: there's actually no specific additional funding from the review as well.

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Speaker 2: For concern that we have is that we it's clearly

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Speaker 2: been insufficient to this point and we have to continue

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Speaker 2: to do with the funding that we do have, and

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Speaker 2: our members are asking and telling us that they need

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Speaker 2: more support, they need more process in place. It's a

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Speaker 2: real concern. We know long term that it has a

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Speaker 2: significant impact on our members' mental health and that's probably

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Speaker 2: part of the reason we have people leaving. But it's

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Speaker 2: it's just it's not good enough in this day and

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Speaker 2: age just doing this place now.

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Speaker 1: Just on the independent review obviously of the Northern Territory Police,

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Speaker 1: Foreign Emergency Services Support and well Being programs, my understanding

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Speaker 1: is that, as you've touched on there, it was completed

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Speaker 1: in May. The Commissioner did speak about this when we

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Speaker 1: had him on the show a couple of weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: But where are things at from your perspective, Lisa, I

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Speaker 1: mean the reviews been conducted. Are there changes that are

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Speaker 1: being implemented right now?

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Speaker 2: There has been some some minor changes, and I think

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Speaker 2: part of that is the push to recruit a psychologist

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Speaker 2: fellow Springs, but we actually don't have. The only support

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Speaker 2: we have in our Springs at the moment is a

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Speaker 2: part time chaplain. We don't have any health and wellbeing officers,

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Speaker 2: we don't have a psychologist down there, and like I said,

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Speaker 2: the support is coming from Darwenham and flying in and out.

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Speaker 2: I think even even the actual makeup of the structure

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Speaker 2: of how that's implemented in the workplace as well the

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Speaker 2: process is that the policies around that, we are way

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Speaker 2: behind every other jurisdiction about how that could be managed.

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Speaker 2: And you've got to think too that we don't know

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Speaker 2: when the recommendations of the reviews will start to roll out.

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Speaker 2: The department has settled cabinets commission sometimes in the new year,

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Speaker 2: which is where the funding will come from, so we're

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Speaker 2: having to make do with what we can't we have,

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Speaker 2: and as I stated, at this stage, it's been like

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Speaker 2: we haven't had anything meaningful for a long time and

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Speaker 2: now we're trying to make do with what we with

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Speaker 2: the funding that we do have, and it's it's not enough.

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Speaker 1: So what is going to happen here if there's not

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Speaker 1: some pretty immediate change in this space.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, you know, there is that fear that it's

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Speaker 2: it's probably too late for some people, and we've also

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Speaker 2: got people who need that help now. And it's it's

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Speaker 2: even just it's even just like I said, the process

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Speaker 2: is when when you have a serious incident that does happen, actually,

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Speaker 2: how does the department respond? How does how does the

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Speaker 2: you know, who's who's contacted with Health and Well Being

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Speaker 2: Office is contacted, We have the psychologist contacted, who's the

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Speaker 2: first point of contact for members, Because it's like with

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Speaker 2: any any serious dramatic incident, it's early intervention that actually helps.

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Speaker 2: And when that hasn't occurred, then that's it's ongoing impact

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Speaker 2: to two members. And unfortunately, you know, you don't want

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Speaker 2: to think about the worst case, you know, but we've

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Speaker 2: We've had a pretty terrible year to share with the

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Speaker 2: number of buides this police and it's it's been a really,

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Speaker 2: really tough time for police and I know, look, I

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Speaker 2: know as well that our police management has been significantly

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Speaker 2: impacted by that as well. It shouldn't be happening, but

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Speaker 2: there is an opportunity, I think for change, and we

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Speaker 2: would hope to see that that would come sooner rather

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Speaker 2: than later.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look, by the sounds of it, it really

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Speaker 1: needs to Lisa, while I've got you, we did just

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Speaker 1: speak to the opposition leader Leofanochiara about some concerns around

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Speaker 1: domestic violence and well a high number of assaults reports

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Speaker 1: of assault over a week long period in Ourice Springs.

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Speaker 1: So from some of the numbers that they obtained through

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Speaker 1: written questioning, there were apparently one hundred and seventy nine

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Speaker 1: domestic violence related police call outs over a seven day

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Speaker 1: period in July. Now, I guess what I'm keen to

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Speaker 1: find out from you is the opposition as saying obviously

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Speaker 1: the numbers are shocking, and they most certainly are, but

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Speaker 1: they're also talking about the ending of the Stronger Futures

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Speaker 1: legislation and whether that has a part to play in

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Speaker 1: these numbers being so high, Lisa, from your perspective, how

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Speaker 1: has the impact been on Northern Territory police officers with

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Speaker 1: that Stronger Futures legislation ending.

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Speaker 2: Well, Look, in May this year we signed we joined

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Speaker 2: a coalition of peak organizations for health, justice and community

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Speaker 2: sector and raising those concerns around the change to the

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Speaker 2: Stronger Futures legislation. And were they all we all raised

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Speaker 2: the significant concern that by allowing these changes to happen

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Speaker 2: without actually having any place and significance in many consultations,

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Speaker 2: I think one of the quotes was We're going to

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Speaker 2: see rivers of God flow and I think that has

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Speaker 2: a signal impact on domestic violence and violence in general

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Speaker 2: and the community. And that was the prediction that we're

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Speaker 2: actually going to see an increase around this. I don't

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Speaker 2: I don't have the specific details about the statistics increase,

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Speaker 2: but we know that that some well our members are

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Speaker 2: telling us in our springs is that it has been

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Speaker 2: We've had a huge increase in our workload and obviously

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Speaker 2: that has its significant impact on the front line, which

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Speaker 2: we see has already stretched to breaking points.

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Speaker 1: Well, So, since that legislation has ended, police officers are

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Speaker 1: on the ground in LysR saying that they have certainly

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Speaker 1: seen a significant increase in their workload.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but that's that's what they're telling us. And I

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Speaker 2: think it's one of those things too, is I've read

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Speaker 2: in the paper the other week about place per capita.

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Speaker 2: We've got the highest amount. But what people don't seem

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Speaker 2: to understand is that in terms of policing, we look

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Speaker 2: at the ratio of police first Cooks Square, Columbo and

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Speaker 2: Normal Territory are actually worse off than in any other jurisdiction.

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Speaker 2: We have the distance of remoteness, the vast the Normal

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Speaker 2: teriti is a vast jurisdiction, and our workload versus our

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Speaker 2: resourcing is enormous. You know, we have member telling us

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Speaker 2: that they struggle each year if not only responding to jobs,

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Speaker 2: but finding time to actually follow up and complete investigations.

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Speaker 2: And part of that, for a long time, police have

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Speaker 2: been we've been calling been ten years since we had

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Speaker 2: our last independent review at the O'Sullivan Reviews with actually

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Speaker 2: requesting that we actually need another independent review into into

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Speaker 2: police resourcing. And part of that is the workload and

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Speaker 2: removing legislation like the strong refuge of legislation without having

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Speaker 2: anything in place to take over from it, like this

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Speaker 2: was a prediction that we've had would occur, and it's

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Speaker 2: really it's quite disappointing that the government didn't plan better

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Speaker 2: for this because it's going to have an impact on

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Speaker 2: policing resources.

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Speaker 1: Well, it is certainly something that will continue to talk about. Lisa,

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Speaker 1: just very quickly before I let you go. One of

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Speaker 1: the other very serious concerns, which was indeed raised as

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Speaker 1: part of the recent survey by the association, was the EBA,

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Speaker 1: where are things that when it comes to negotiations in

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Speaker 1: this space.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, unfortunately we've been offered the same four year

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Speaker 2: pay frees as every other public sector, which is quite

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Speaker 2: insulting to our members who over the last two years

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Speaker 2: we've gone above and beyond what we need to do,

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Speaker 2: especially with COVID working in remote areas and extreme heat

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Speaker 2: and cold. But with the reply, we write a letter

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Speaker 2: to Minister Kirby who's the OCPE minister, and it took

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Speaker 2: them two months to apply to us. It's basically a

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Speaker 2: three line response. Same we're going to hand us back

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Speaker 2: to the Commission for Public Employment and Permission for Police. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: the response we got from them, was our quote here

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Speaker 2: a fair and reasonable one. The proposal was a fair

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Speaker 2: and reasonable one. A lot of prevailing economic circumstances of

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Speaker 2: government and market conditions, and we're not really sure what

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Speaker 2: the market commissions they're referring to. Around the country, we've

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Speaker 2: seen quite generous pay rise has been offered to for example, Queensland,

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Speaker 2: they've been off four percent over the next two years,

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Speaker 2: so four percent four percent and the third year three percent,

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Speaker 2: so it's eleven percent plus they've got a cost of

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Speaker 2: living clause to match inflation of three percent. Western Australia

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Speaker 2: they've just given their pub expectives of three percent on

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Speaker 2: your pay rise over the next two years and a

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Speaker 2: one off two thousand and five hundred payment. So it's

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Speaker 2: within this space that Northern Tertiary is done. We're competing

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Speaker 2: on a national level for a workforce and if we

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Speaker 2: don't see significant you know, pay rise that will match that,

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Speaker 2: we're actually going to lose. We're going to lose a

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Speaker 2: lot of members. And it's the attrition at eleven percent. It's

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Speaker 2: really quite concerning for us. And look, we've continued to

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Speaker 2: try to keep talking to the government, but I think

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Speaker 2: they really need to be putting their hand in their

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Speaker 2: pockets because this is this is going to really start

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Speaker 2: impacting further our attrition rates. And I don't think we

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Speaker 2: can go much more than eleven percent.

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Speaker 1: I don't think so either. I really don't. Lisa, we

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Speaker 1: are going to have to leave it there. I really

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Speaker 1: appreciate your time this morning. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: having your chat with me.

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Speaker 2: Maorrie, thank you, Katie, thank you.

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Speaker 1: That is Lisa Baylor's there, who is the senior vice

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Speaker 1: president of the Northern Territory Police Association. We are going

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Speaker 1: to head off to the National News