WEBVTT - Ben Owen - HUNTED - Deputy Intelligence Officer 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:01.760 It's in the news today, but it was actually on 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:04.960 TV Reload the podcast last week Airline. Welcome back guys 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:07.080 to TV Reload. As you may know, my name is 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:09.880 Benjamin Norris and this is your podcast to get all 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:12.360 the inside goss on the popular TV shows you may 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:16.000 be watching from around the world. Undeniably, our TV sets 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:18.720 are a major part of our home entertainment, and yet 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:21.680 very little is known about how our favorite shows get made. 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:24.239 So each episode, I've been finding guests the water to 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:26.400 dive just that little bit deeper into the shows they're 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.200 currently making, so that you can hear all their exclusive 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:32.640 stories and gain access to the biggest names in Australian television. 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:34.800 I want to thank you for downloading or subscribing to 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.080 this podcast however you've found me. I love hearing your feedback, 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.080 so make sure you leave a review or a comment 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:43.879 on your chosen podcast platform. On today's podcast, I have 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:47.400 Deputy Intelligence Ben Owen, one of the Hunters from Network 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.920 ten season two of the hit reality show Hunted, which 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:54.760 starts this Monday at seven point thirty. Former British intelligence officer, 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:58.640 Ben Owen is an internationally recognized expert in surveillance and 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:02.720 covert operations. Returning to the second series of Hunted as 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:07.320 Deputy Intelligence. During his exemplary career, Ben has gathered intelligence 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:09.960 for some of the most high profile man hunts in 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:14.679 recent British history. Across a ten year intelligence career, Ben 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:19.280 now works in cybersecurity and digital intelligence, advising organizations from 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:22.680 around the globe on cyber safety and necessary protections in 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.920 the increasingly volatile digital world. With many his experience in 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:31.040 high pressure environments, Ben remains calm under fire and promises 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.840 to bring his laser focus to the Hunted investigation. I 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:37.360 will talk about the ways in which the Hunters will 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:40.440 track the Hunted and how this series has leveled up 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:43.680 on technology. We will find out about how season two 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:47.000 contestants chose to learn from series one and if being 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.720 more familiar with the format will affect their chances. Ben 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:54.040 will talk about the real life hackers affecting everyday Australians 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:56.800 and what your social media says about you. Plus we 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.120 will get plenty of exclusives from behind the scenes of 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:01.920 Hunted season two, which pray me as Monday, the twenty 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:04.280 fourth of July at seven thirty on Network ten. And 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:06.960 of course you can catch up on ten play. Anyway, 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:09.320 let's bring Ben into the podcast, and I really hope 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:14.040 you enjoy this fascinating episode of TV reload. Hey, how 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:17.040 are you? I'm all right, Ben, you, I'm fabulous. I'm 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:18.320 very excited to be talking to you. 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.080 Oh lightwise, Sorry, I'm not on camera. I'm just at 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.080 an airport and I've found a little cuppy hole, so 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:23.960 hopefully you can hear me. 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:26.840 Okay, I actually can. And I was pre warned that 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:29.000 you may be like on the road, driving in the 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.040 streets of Spain, and I was thinking, I don't know 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:32.440 what I'm going to have to deal I don't know 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:34.040 what I'm dealing with with this phone call. 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:36.600 So good? Where about so you, Ben? 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:40.360 Well, I'm coming to you from the EP center of 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.760 the show. I'm in Melbourne, very close to the city. 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:45.760 I'm in Turek, so I don't know whether or not 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:47.760 I needed to tell you that you probably already knew. 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:52.040 Oh that's fantastic. Oh nice. I love Melbourne. I'm very 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:53.359 fond of it and I miss it a lot. 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:56.240 Well. How excited I you for series two? Because last 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:58.640 year the ratings were amazing and everyone was very excited 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.480 about this show, and now it's back. I've seen episode 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:03.119 one and it's bigger and better than ever. 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:06.080 Yeah, I'll be honest, I literally can't wait for it. 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:10.000 I'm so I'm so excited for it because I just think. 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.880 I mean, I'm not in TV production, I'm not a 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:16.480 you know, I know nothing about that kind of stuff, 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.360 but I just know from filming it as one of 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.920 the on screen participants as a hunter, I just know 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:25.240 the amount of effort that's gone in on season two 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:28.720 to make it bigger and better. And they're always looking 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:31.480 for a new angle, something that the public have never 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:34.360 seen before, and I think you're going to get that, 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.080 not just on our side, but on every fugitive pair 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.640 as well. There's just new things they're doing, new techniques 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:44.320 that we're having to deal with, but also new hunting 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.400 techniques that we've deployed that have not been seen yet. 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:49.960 So I literally can't wait to put it on the TV. 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:51.960 Well, I'm going to ask you about some of these 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.320 new techniques because I'm very interested in them. But I 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:57.080 also wanted to start this interview really by asking you. 0:03:57.320 --> 0:03:59.880 I loved Hide and Seek as a child, what was 0:03:59.880 --> 0:04:03.000 your relationship with it? And as was that early signs 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:05.080 of being interested in this type of work. 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.640 Do you know what, Ben, I'm exactly the same as 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:11.760 you because this hunted is basically a grown up, high tech, 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:14.480 fast paced game of hide and seek. And I was 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:17.760 exactly the same And as a child growing up, certainly 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:21.520 into my early teen years, I vividly remember so my 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:24.640 dad was a school caretaker, so I basically had the 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:28.120 entire school to play what we called it manhunt, and 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:29.960 it would be in groups. It'd be like a group 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:31.640 of three and a group of three, and we would 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:33.440 hunt each other down around the school. 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:35.560 And I literally fell in love with it. 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.880 If I wasn't playing football, I wanted to be playing manhunt. 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:40.920 And I just guess I never grew out of that, 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:44.080 and I sort of carved my career into it through 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:47.280 the military. It joined at age seventeen, so a very 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:49.880 young age, and sort of started to get into it 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.080 that way, I guess. But yeah, exactly the same as you. 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:54.120 But I never grew out of that excitement of the 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:56.359 thrill of the chase, so to speak. 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:58.479 Were you good at hide and seek or were you 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.200 acceptionally bad at it which made you want to get 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:02.440 in your career later on? 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:07.320 Well, I love that it's maybe laugh but I'm not 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.719 trying to come across as arrogant or blowing smoke somewhere. 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.320 But I was actually really good at it, and I 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:17.400 think that's because I even right. I even took a 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:21.760 bag with me with different colored clothing because I thought, well, 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.120 if I'm indifferent. So I didn't really understand the military, 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:26.960 the sniper the camouflage of concealment stuff at the age 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:29.320 of twelve, but I guess it was just embedded in 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:32.000 my brain somewhere. So I took different colored clothing and 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:34.000 I would change it as I went around the school 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:36.240 and tried to hide. And I remember once there was 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:38.160 building works at one of the schools and they had 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:41.840 like this orange plastic sheeting and I literally changed into 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:44.160 the closest color I could find and just laid there 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.160 for hours and no one found me. So I took 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.839 it really, probably too seriously, and I think that's probably 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:52.120 why I never sort of shook it. 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:53.080 Off, and I guess why. 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:55.960 I then joined the military, and then I passed my 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:59.800 sniper selection and training, and I was a sniper for 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:00.680 for years. 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:02.600 Sorry, there's a long winded answer to your life. 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:04.800 It's not a long winded answer you're giving me like 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.880 young Shelden vibes, you know, like maybe there's enough show 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.000 that we can do in years to come where we 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:10.400 go back. 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.800 I think he's far Yeah, he's far more intelligent than 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:15.799 I am. Young Sheldon love that show. 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.480 You know, you guys have really been able to up 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.520 the anti from last year in terms of the technology 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:25.080 and how you can track these fugitives. Are you sometimes 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:28.279 even surprised at how far we've come in twenty twenty 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:31.640 three and how hard it is to really disappear? 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.880 Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm not surprised because I 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.960 just I've just sort of known how technology is advancing, 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:40.560 not every year, but literally every week. If we're now 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:43.520 looking at you know, artificial intelligence and what that might 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.120 look like in one year, two years down the line. 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:50.000 But I'm not surprised about the technological advances. But what 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:54.120 I always stress, not just to myself and remind myself, 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:57.840 but to my fellow hunters, certainly in the intelligence collection 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:02.200 side of Hunted HQ, is always remember that the human 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:04.760 being is the only consistent in this. So if we 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:08.960 can tap into the human brain, regardless of technological advances, 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.440 of what we might have at our disposal to catch them. 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:15.120 If we can get inside their brain and understand who 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:18.200 they are as a person, what their ego might look like, 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.240 what makes them tick, what makes them sad, what makes 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.480 them excited, what's going to piss them off, then ultimately 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:27.000 we're going to be able to catch them. So albeit 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:30.920 all these technical advances that are happening and different bits 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:33.040 of equipment that we might have next year that we 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:35.880 don't even know about yet, it still does ball down 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:38.800 to understanding the human being themselves. And well, I think 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.320 once you've done that, then you can deploy the correct 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:44.560 equipment to be able to corner them off or let 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:47.120 them or make them make a mistake, so to speak. 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:49.480 It's like, I think, in some way you're kind of 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:53.520 telling me that studying behavior and understanding human behavior is 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:55.480 a large part of this as well. So I mean, 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:58.440 you could either be doing this as a job, or 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:00.679 you could be a psychologist. I guess with the ability 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:01.840 to read people. 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:02.520 One hundred percent. 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:04.760 And I think I give quite a lot of keynote 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.840 speeches and some people just want me to talk about 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:11.080 my upbringing and I always you know, I had a 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.240 and there's always someone that's had it worse off. So 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:16.400 this isn't a sort of sob story. But my mother 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:18.520 died when I was four. She was an alcoholic. I 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:23.240 grew up with my father. Money wasn't really there. We 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:25.840 sort of cut our cloth, so to speak. I got 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.400 three jobs by the time I was fourteen. One of 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:30.880 them jobs I had to clean the school that I 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:32.720 studied in. So I was the school cleaner. So I 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.199 would literally finish study and go home and get changed 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:37.760 and then go and clean the school. And sometimes my 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.400 fellow pupils would see me clean the toilets, that kind 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:42.800 of stuff. And so I think I learned at a 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:46.000 very young age how the human brain works. And I 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.720 learned very again at a very young age that you know, 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.880 not to be too bothered about what people think and opinions. 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:53.720 And I just think I've sort of carried that on 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.520 along with my my skills for man hunting and playing 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:00.400 around the school. But I've sort of carried into my 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.760 adult life and the careers that I've had and always defaulted. Well, 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:07.040 if we can understand the brain what makes that particular 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.319 person tick, then we are at a huge advantage, regardless 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:12.480 of anything else that we might have at our disposal. 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:14.960 What is your thoughts on you just us as the 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:18.240 everyday people with their Instagram and facebooks and Twitter and 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:20.839 all of that being hacked by people of overseas and 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:24.240 losing our access to those sorts of things. Is that 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:26.280 a bit of a strange phenomenon at the moment. Is 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:27.480 that a phase we're going through. 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:31.079 I think what we're seeing a significant increase in all 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:34.360 that kind of stuff, And it's a legacy from I 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:38.120 guess the pandemic and lockdowns and financial stresses and strains 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.360 people having more time to sit at home and perhaps 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:45.679 learn the criminal side of hacking. But once again, I 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:49.640 think it goes down to understanding how much information we 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:51.920 all put online every single day. And that's exactly what 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.240 we're doing in Hunting HQ. When we're doing the show. 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.560 One of the first things is the sort of intel 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.679 lead in headquarters and reporting to the the chief is 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.680 I ask my intel team. The first thing is generally 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:07.640 go on open source, find their social media accounts, find 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:11.000 out who they're banking with, find out their friends, their associates, 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:14.640 their networks, their mum, dad, wives, whatever that might look like, 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.559 and provide me with a picture of this person and 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:21.080 honestly Ben. You could do that on an individual now 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.199 who even has an average, not a high, but an 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.280 average online presence, I would be able to tell you 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:29.680 within half an hour forty minutes the ins and outs 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:32.839 of this person's life, literally where they live, the cars 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:36.240 they drive, their partners, who they bank with, probably their 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:38.400 route to work every single day, the gym that they 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.800 go to, the restaurants that they've been to, literally everything, 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:43.760 everything is available at the click of a button. And 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.520 I think that's what hackers are getting good at. And 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:50.040 once again, although this is digital reconnaissance, it is actually 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:53.080 going into that human being's mind because you're understanding all 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:55.680 these things about them. And you could be on the 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:58.920 other side of the world conducting this reconnaissance on someone else. 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:00.520 So I could sit here and do it on someone 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:02.600 in Australia and I could tell you quite a bit 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:04.679 about how their mind work. And I think that's all 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:06.880 it is. It's that drawer and that's what hackers are doing. 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:10.120 They're understanding you and they're saying right now, I've had 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.640 a look at Ben's online presence. I know that sending 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:17.239 Ben an SMS at five point thirty on a Thursday, 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:19.960 when he finishes the gym and his pheromones are high 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.920 and they're happy. That's the best possible chance I've got 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:25.400 for him to click on that link, and obviously that's 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:27.480 the hack and the malware is deployed. 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:29.840 You know what's really strange about you saying that was 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:33.720 when my Instagram was hacked. It was at the routine 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:36.280 time of me finishing my run. I run the Tan 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:38.960 in Melbourne, and it was just as I was finishing 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:42.840 that and someone pretended to be someone I knew who 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:45.760 was young and probably someone that you might reach out 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:47.800 for my help and said, you know, I can't access 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.480 my Instagram if I need my Instagram verified, if you 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:53.840 just click this link, it means that it'll get verified 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.400 for me, and me being so gullible and maybe full 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:00.360 of life from doing my run, feeling like I will 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:02.120 do good. I did it. 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:03.400 Yeah, you're a natural high. 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:06.360 So your natural high after doing the exercise is to 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:08.960 help people. So you're trying to be helpful and that's 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:11.800 what they're leveraging is the human brain and for want 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:14.040 of a better phrase, the weaknesses during your day and 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:17.640 your patterns. So yeah, that is really really strange. Actually, 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:19.840 it was just after a run that you mentioned. 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:21.640 That, Yeah, you said you laid it all out before 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:23.720 you even knew that about me. It was very strange, 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:26.000 but I mean that's obviously the key to that kind 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:28.800 of success. I was also going to say, look, spoiler alert, 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.400 I got my Instagram back, but that was after about 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:35.520 a week of negotiating with this Nigerian guy who oh God, 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:39.640 negotiated with me. And I eventually convinced him by saying, 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:41.640 because I found out that he was, you know, needed 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.959 money and he worried about his mum's health. I convinced 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:47.079 him by saying, does your mum know that you're doing 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.199 this to people? And he was like, no, you should 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:53.280 be so disappointed in me. And then I said, reversed it. 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:57.560 I an element, love it. You should work for us, Ben. 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:03.880 Is there a job going? I just I just really 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.200 appreciate psychology. I love that phrase, and I'm going to 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.120 get it wrong. But you know, people tell you who 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.040 they are, and it's very interesting because if you listen 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.079 to people, you can gather so much information about them, 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:17.400 and if you're evil, you can use that against them, 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.080 or yes, if you're you, you can use it against 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:20.960 them for the greater good. 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:23.000 Exactly, right, Ben? Yeah, that's spot on. 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:25.360 You know what. I'm going to be really honest about this. 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:27.520 When I watched the first season the whole way through, 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.000 I really enjoyed it, But then I had concerns about 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:32.760 a season two because I was thinking, how much of 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.400 these people that are going to come and try it 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.080 and take it on this challenge have watched the season 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.040 before and have learnt too much. 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:44.200 That's a really good question, and I guess yes is 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.600 the answer. Yes, we're always concerned about that because we 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.240 don't want to run out of ideas and initiatives of 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.200 how we might catch them. But once again, it goes 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:55.560 down to real life, doesn't it. Every time a real 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:59.920 life fugitive is caught and that person goes through court 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:03.000 or those people go through the court and litigation process, 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:07.520 all of the law enforcement and potentially intelligence services tactics 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:10.040 come out as part of that litigation process. So in 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:14.120 the real world, fugitives are learning every single day. They 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.400 have the Internet, you know, the click of a button, 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.080 they can find this stuff out. So we're dealing with 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.200 what we would have to deal with in the real world. 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:26.320 So it's completely realistic. But once again, I think it 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:30.880 goes down to being mentally resilient and thinking of new 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:35.400 and inventive ideas, even ones that we perhaps have never 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:39.400 deployed before in our professional capacity, you know, thinking about 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.400 really off the wall ideas that we can deploy as 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:44.920 long as it's legal, as long as it's proportionate, and 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.800 it's in the realms of the rules, in the parameters 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:49.800 of the rules of the hunt, you know, we can 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.200 do it. So it's also on us to be more inventive. 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:55.400 So we've always got to look at ways of doing 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:56.000 that as well. 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:58.640 Did people return and do very similar things to last 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:00.440 year or do you think that they all we had 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:03.480 already worked out a plan that was sort of leveling up. 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:04.440 I think the latter. 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.240 I think people worked out a plan because they had 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:10.680 watched the first season and potentially they've watched many seasons 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:12.800 across the world of Hunted and worked out what the 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.360 general mistakes are, what the patterns are. But once again, 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:19.840 it goes back down to humans are creatures of habit. 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:23.160 So whilst you might have what you think is the 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:30.360 best plan possible, you can't account for being paranoid, tired, annoyed, hungry. 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.680 You know, once you get to that mental state, the 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.080 plan might go out the window, and most of the 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.440 time it does, and you're dealing with stuff that you 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:40.600 didn't know that you had to deal with, So your 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:44.080 plan has to change, which makes you default to some 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:47.520 of the tactics that have been happening forever. And that's 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.560 just the fact of going on the run. You never 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:52.440 know what you're going to come up against, and you 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.320 never ever know when bad luck is going to slap 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:57.080 you right in the face, and it's how you deal 0:15:57.120 --> 0:15:58.240 with it as you go through that. 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.160 So you know, it's completely it's completely fair. 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:04.080 It's so exciting because we literally don't know what we're 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.240 going to walk into every single day, and neither do 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:07.080 the fugitives. 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:09.080 Well, I kind of felt, you know, straight away, and 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:11.440 I think audiences around Australia will feel the same. But 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:14.560 the contestants do seem more ambitious this year. They seem 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:17.920 like they might be a little bit more hungrier. You know, 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.880 you've been evolved with other, you know, international versions of 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:23.280 this show. A good question to ask you from the 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:26.840 comparison is what makes Australians different in the way that 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:28.480 they try and take on this competition. 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:33.880 I think the Australian fugitives have been hands down the 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:37.520 toughest fugitives that I've ever had to deal with in 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.840 doing the show in the British, the US versions, and 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:44.560 obviously now the Aussie version. And I think that honestly 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:48.440 comes down to the way the ossies are brought up, 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:52.000 the way that they're parented, the way that the country 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:59.680 encourage outdoor, hands on practical living. You've got the I guess, 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.200 the the temperature, the environment for it. The country lends 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:07.000 itself for you to get out and explore and be adventurous. 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:11.080 And I think just having that in your experience as 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:13.159 a child and into your teen years and into your 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:16.359 adult life, being really sort of practically hands on and 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:20.960 resilient has really helped them with being fugitives on this 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.600 TV his show, which is annoying for us as hunters, 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:25.960 because obviously we don't want all fugitives to be good, 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.480 because our work will be a lot tougher. But yeah, 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:30.760 I honestly think and I'm not just saying that the 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.040 Aussie fugitives are the best I've ever dealt with because 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:35.000 I'm doing the Aussie version. It is because I mean it, 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.840 and they actually are. And I just think, yeah, your 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:43.320 background and being able to be practical and mentally resilient. 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.080 Gives you that confidence as well as a nation. So 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:50.560 ultimately that's why I think they're the toughest fugitives I've 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:51.400 ever had to deal with. 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:54.080 It's interesting as well, Like you know, for me growing up, 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:57.200 my parents both they were separated, but you know, whoever 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.000 was looking after us, they encouraged us to be outside 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:02.919 exactly A lot of our child a lot of my 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:06.040 growing up was always encouraged to be socializing with all 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:08.120 the other kids in the street and making up our 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:11.840 own entertainment. And I now can see that they're large 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:15.480 part of my creativity was sort of probably fostered in 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:17.760 that way right at the start. So maybe it does 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:20.359 lend itself to being able to think outside the box. 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:22.520 I think so massively. And like you said, Ben, when 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:24.919 you're you know, a child, and you're growing up and 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:27.240 you're being a you're able to go over to another 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.760 group of children and ingratiate yourself and learn about the 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:34.200 different nuances in how different people live. You know, we've 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:37.680 all got we all think inherently different, every single human being. 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:40.520 We brought up with different parents with different influences, you know, 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:42.680 some parents together. I was the same as you, Ben. 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:46.399 My parents were divorced and I spent time at either side, 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:48.679 and you know, so we all think different, we have 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.600 different experiences. But once you learn that from other people, 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:53.040 and the only way you're going to do that is 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:54.960 is if you get out and about and do it, 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:57.720 you're going to be a better rounded person. And I 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:01.640 think naturally that lends itself to aliens as a general 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:02.720 population of people. 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:04.159 That absolutely is the case. 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:06.320 Well, I feel like this is a really good compliment 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:07.360 and I'm going to take. 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:09.720