Speaker 1: It's in the news today, but it was actually on
Speaker 1: TV Reload the podcast last week Airline. Welcome back guys
Speaker 1: to TV Reload. As you may know, my name is
Speaker 1: Benjamin Norris and this is your podcast to get all
Speaker 1: the inside goss on the popular TV shows you may
Speaker 1: be watching from around the world. Undeniably, our TV sets
Speaker 1: are a major part of our home entertainment, and yet
Speaker 1: very little is known about how our favorite shows get made.
Speaker 1: So each episode, I've been finding guests the water to
Speaker 1: dive just that little bit deeper into the shows they're
Speaker 1: currently making, so that you can hear all their exclusive
Speaker 1: stories and gain access to the biggest names in Australian television.
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for downloading or subscribing to
Speaker 1: this podcast however you've found me. I love hearing your feedback,
Speaker 1: so make sure you leave a review or a comment
Speaker 1: on your chosen podcast platform. On today's podcast, I have
Speaker 1: Deputy Intelligence Ben Owen, one of the Hunters from Network
Speaker 1: ten season two of the hit reality show Hunted, which
Speaker 1: starts this Monday at seven point thirty. Former British intelligence officer,
Speaker 1: Ben Owen is an internationally recognized expert in surveillance and
Speaker 1: covert operations. Returning to the second series of Hunted as
Speaker 1: Deputy Intelligence. During his exemplary career, Ben has gathered intelligence
Speaker 1: for some of the most high profile man hunts in
Speaker 1: recent British history. Across a ten year intelligence career, Ben
Speaker 1: now works in cybersecurity and digital intelligence, advising organizations from
Speaker 1: around the globe on cyber safety and necessary protections in
Speaker 1: the increasingly volatile digital world. With many his experience in
Speaker 1: high pressure environments, Ben remains calm under fire and promises
Speaker 1: to bring his laser focus to the Hunted investigation. I
Speaker 1: will talk about the ways in which the Hunters will
Speaker 1: track the Hunted and how this series has leveled up
Speaker 1: on technology. We will find out about how season two
Speaker 1: contestants chose to learn from series one and if being
Speaker 1: more familiar with the format will affect their chances. Ben
Speaker 1: will talk about the real life hackers affecting everyday Australians
Speaker 1: and what your social media says about you. Plus we
Speaker 1: will get plenty of exclusives from behind the scenes of
Speaker 1: Hunted season two, which pray me as Monday, the twenty
Speaker 1: fourth of July at seven thirty on Network ten. And
Speaker 1: of course you can catch up on ten play. Anyway,
Speaker 1: let's bring Ben into the podcast, and I really hope
Speaker 1: you enjoy this fascinating episode of TV reload. Hey, how
Speaker 1: are you? I'm all right, Ben, you, I'm fabulous. I'm
Speaker 1: very excited to be talking to you.
Speaker 2: Oh lightwise, Sorry, I'm not on camera. I'm just at
Speaker 2: an airport and I've found a little cuppy hole, so
Speaker 2: hopefully you can hear me.
Speaker 1: Okay, I actually can. And I was pre warned that
Speaker 1: you may be like on the road, driving in the
Speaker 1: streets of Spain, and I was thinking, I don't know
Speaker 1: what I'm going to have to deal I don't know
Speaker 1: what I'm dealing with with this phone call.
Speaker 3: So good? Where about so you, Ben?
Speaker 1: Well, I'm coming to you from the EP center of
Speaker 1: the show. I'm in Melbourne, very close to the city.
Speaker 1: I'm in Turek, so I don't know whether or not
Speaker 1: I needed to tell you that you probably already knew.
Speaker 3: Oh that's fantastic. Oh nice. I love Melbourne. I'm very
Speaker 3: fond of it and I miss it a lot.
Speaker 1: Well. How excited I you for series two? Because last
Speaker 1: year the ratings were amazing and everyone was very excited
Speaker 1: about this show, and now it's back. I've seen episode
Speaker 1: one and it's bigger and better than ever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll be honest, I literally can't wait for it.
Speaker 2: I'm so I'm so excited for it because I just think.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not in TV production, I'm not a
Speaker 2: you know, I know nothing about that kind of stuff,
Speaker 2: but I just know from filming it as one of
Speaker 2: the on screen participants as a hunter, I just know
Speaker 2: the amount of effort that's gone in on season two
Speaker 2: to make it bigger and better. And they're always looking
Speaker 2: for a new angle, something that the public have never
Speaker 2: seen before, and I think you're going to get that,
Speaker 2: not just on our side, but on every fugitive pair
Speaker 2: as well. There's just new things they're doing, new techniques
Speaker 2: that we're having to deal with, but also new hunting
Speaker 2: techniques that we've deployed that have not been seen yet.
Speaker 2: So I literally can't wait to put it on the TV.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to ask you about some of these
Speaker 1: new techniques because I'm very interested in them. But I
Speaker 1: also wanted to start this interview really by asking you.
Speaker 1: I loved Hide and Seek as a child, what was
Speaker 1: your relationship with it? And as was that early signs
Speaker 1: of being interested in this type of work.
Speaker 2: Do you know what, Ben, I'm exactly the same as
Speaker 2: you because this hunted is basically a grown up, high tech,
Speaker 2: fast paced game of hide and seek. And I was
Speaker 2: exactly the same And as a child growing up, certainly
Speaker 2: into my early teen years, I vividly remember so my
Speaker 2: dad was a school caretaker, so I basically had the
Speaker 2: entire school to play what we called it manhunt, and
Speaker 2: it would be in groups. It'd be like a group
Speaker 2: of three and a group of three, and we would
Speaker 2: hunt each other down around the school.
Speaker 3: And I literally fell in love with it.
Speaker 2: If I wasn't playing football, I wanted to be playing manhunt.
Speaker 2: And I just guess I never grew out of that,
Speaker 2: and I sort of carved my career into it through
Speaker 2: the military. It joined at age seventeen, so a very
Speaker 2: young age, and sort of started to get into it
Speaker 2: that way, I guess. But yeah, exactly the same as you.
Speaker 2: But I never grew out of that excitement of the
Speaker 2: thrill of the chase, so to speak.
Speaker 1: Were you good at hide and seek or were you
Speaker 1: acceptionally bad at it which made you want to get
Speaker 1: in your career later on?
Speaker 2: Well, I love that it's maybe laugh but I'm not
Speaker 2: trying to come across as arrogant or blowing smoke somewhere.
Speaker 2: But I was actually really good at it, and I
Speaker 2: think that's because I even right. I even took a
Speaker 2: bag with me with different colored clothing because I thought, well,
Speaker 2: if I'm indifferent. So I didn't really understand the military,
Speaker 2: the sniper the camouflage of concealment stuff at the age
Speaker 2: of twelve, but I guess it was just embedded in
Speaker 2: my brain somewhere. So I took different colored clothing and
Speaker 2: I would change it as I went around the school
Speaker 2: and tried to hide. And I remember once there was
Speaker 2: building works at one of the schools and they had
Speaker 2: like this orange plastic sheeting and I literally changed into
Speaker 2: the closest color I could find and just laid there
Speaker 2: for hours and no one found me. So I took
Speaker 2: it really, probably too seriously, and I think that's probably
Speaker 2: why I never sort of shook it.
Speaker 3: Off, and I guess why.
Speaker 2: I then joined the military, and then I passed my
Speaker 2: sniper selection and training, and I was a sniper for
Speaker 2: for years.
Speaker 3: Sorry, there's a long winded answer to your life.
Speaker 1: It's not a long winded answer you're giving me like
Speaker 1: young Shelden vibes, you know, like maybe there's enough show
Speaker 1: that we can do in years to come where we
Speaker 1: go back.
Speaker 2: I think he's far Yeah, he's far more intelligent than
Speaker 2: I am. Young Sheldon love that show.
Speaker 1: You know, you guys have really been able to up
Speaker 1: the anti from last year in terms of the technology
Speaker 1: and how you can track these fugitives. Are you sometimes
Speaker 1: even surprised at how far we've come in twenty twenty
Speaker 1: three and how hard it is to really disappear?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm not surprised because I
Speaker 2: just I've just sort of known how technology is advancing,
Speaker 2: not every year, but literally every week. If we're now
Speaker 2: looking at you know, artificial intelligence and what that might
Speaker 2: look like in one year, two years down the line.
Speaker 2: But I'm not surprised about the technological advances. But what
Speaker 2: I always stress, not just to myself and remind myself,
Speaker 2: but to my fellow hunters, certainly in the intelligence collection
Speaker 2: side of Hunted HQ, is always remember that the human
Speaker 2: being is the only consistent in this. So if we
Speaker 2: can tap into the human brain, regardless of technological advances,
Speaker 2: of what we might have at our disposal to catch them.
Speaker 2: If we can get inside their brain and understand who
Speaker 2: they are as a person, what their ego might look like,
Speaker 2: what makes them tick, what makes them sad, what makes
Speaker 2: them excited, what's going to piss them off, then ultimately
Speaker 2: we're going to be able to catch them. So albeit
Speaker 2: all these technical advances that are happening and different bits
Speaker 2: of equipment that we might have next year that we
Speaker 2: don't even know about yet, it still does ball down
Speaker 2: to understanding the human being themselves. And well, I think
Speaker 2: once you've done that, then you can deploy the correct
Speaker 2: equipment to be able to corner them off or let
Speaker 2: them or make them make a mistake, so to speak.
Speaker 1: It's like, I think, in some way you're kind of
Speaker 1: telling me that studying behavior and understanding human behavior is
Speaker 1: a large part of this as well. So I mean,
Speaker 1: you could either be doing this as a job, or
Speaker 1: you could be a psychologist. I guess with the ability
Speaker 1: to read people.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent.
Speaker 2: And I think I give quite a lot of keynote
Speaker 2: speeches and some people just want me to talk about
Speaker 2: my upbringing and I always you know, I had a
Speaker 2: and there's always someone that's had it worse off. So
Speaker 2: this isn't a sort of sob story. But my mother
Speaker 2: died when I was four. She was an alcoholic. I
Speaker 2: grew up with my father. Money wasn't really there. We
Speaker 2: sort of cut our cloth, so to speak. I got
Speaker 2: three jobs by the time I was fourteen. One of
Speaker 2: them jobs I had to clean the school that I
Speaker 2: studied in. So I was the school cleaner. So I
Speaker 2: would literally finish study and go home and get changed
Speaker 2: and then go and clean the school. And sometimes my
Speaker 2: fellow pupils would see me clean the toilets, that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff. And so I think I learned at a
Speaker 2: very young age how the human brain works. And I
Speaker 2: learned very again at a very young age that you know,
Speaker 2: not to be too bothered about what people think and opinions.
Speaker 2: And I just think I've sort of carried that on
Speaker 2: along with my my skills for man hunting and playing
Speaker 2: around the school. But I've sort of carried into my
Speaker 2: adult life and the careers that I've had and always defaulted. Well,
Speaker 2: if we can understand the brain what makes that particular
Speaker 2: person tick, then we are at a huge advantage, regardless
Speaker 2: of anything else that we might have at our disposal.
Speaker 1: What is your thoughts on you just us as the
Speaker 1: everyday people with their Instagram and facebooks and Twitter and
Speaker 1: all of that being hacked by people of overseas and
Speaker 1: losing our access to those sorts of things. Is that
Speaker 1: a bit of a strange phenomenon at the moment. Is
Speaker 1: that a phase we're going through.
Speaker 2: I think what we're seeing a significant increase in all
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff, And it's a legacy from I
Speaker 2: guess the pandemic and lockdowns and financial stresses and strains
Speaker 2: people having more time to sit at home and perhaps
Speaker 2: learn the criminal side of hacking. But once again, I
Speaker 2: think it goes down to understanding how much information we
Speaker 2: all put online every single day. And that's exactly what
Speaker 2: we're doing in Hunting HQ. When we're doing the show.
Speaker 2: One of the first things is the sort of intel
Speaker 2: lead in headquarters and reporting to the the chief is
Speaker 2: I ask my intel team. The first thing is generally
Speaker 2: go on open source, find their social media accounts, find
Speaker 2: out who they're banking with, find out their friends, their associates,
Speaker 2: their networks, their mum, dad, wives, whatever that might look like,
Speaker 2: and provide me with a picture of this person and
Speaker 2: honestly Ben. You could do that on an individual now
Speaker 2: who even has an average, not a high, but an
Speaker 2: average online presence, I would be able to tell you
Speaker 2: within half an hour forty minutes the ins and outs
Speaker 2: of this person's life, literally where they live, the cars
Speaker 2: they drive, their partners, who they bank with, probably their
Speaker 2: route to work every single day, the gym that they
Speaker 2: go to, the restaurants that they've been to, literally everything,
Speaker 2: everything is available at the click of a button. And
Speaker 2: I think that's what hackers are getting good at. And
Speaker 2: once again, although this is digital reconnaissance, it is actually
Speaker 2: going into that human being's mind because you're understanding all
Speaker 2: these things about them. And you could be on the
Speaker 2: other side of the world conducting this reconnaissance on someone else.
Speaker 2: So I could sit here and do it on someone
Speaker 2: in Australia and I could tell you quite a bit
Speaker 2: about how their mind work. And I think that's all
Speaker 2: it is. It's that drawer and that's what hackers are doing.
Speaker 2: They're understanding you and they're saying right now, I've had
Speaker 2: a look at Ben's online presence. I know that sending
Speaker 2: Ben an SMS at five point thirty on a Thursday,
Speaker 2: when he finishes the gym and his pheromones are high
Speaker 2: and they're happy. That's the best possible chance I've got
Speaker 2: for him to click on that link, and obviously that's
Speaker 2: the hack and the malware is deployed.
Speaker 1: You know what's really strange about you saying that was
Speaker 1: when my Instagram was hacked. It was at the routine
Speaker 1: time of me finishing my run. I run the Tan
Speaker 1: in Melbourne, and it was just as I was finishing
Speaker 1: that and someone pretended to be someone I knew who
Speaker 1: was young and probably someone that you might reach out
Speaker 1: for my help and said, you know, I can't access
Speaker 1: my Instagram if I need my Instagram verified, if you
Speaker 1: just click this link, it means that it'll get verified
Speaker 1: for me, and me being so gullible and maybe full
Speaker 1: of life from doing my run, feeling like I will
Speaker 1: do good. I did it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're a natural high.
Speaker 2: So your natural high after doing the exercise is to
Speaker 2: help people. So you're trying to be helpful and that's
Speaker 2: what they're leveraging is the human brain and for want
Speaker 2: of a better phrase, the weaknesses during your day and
Speaker 2: your patterns. So yeah, that is really really strange. Actually,
Speaker 2: it was just after a run that you mentioned.
Speaker 1: That, Yeah, you said you laid it all out before
Speaker 1: you even knew that about me. It was very strange,
Speaker 1: but I mean that's obviously the key to that kind
Speaker 1: of success. I was also going to say, look, spoiler alert,
Speaker 1: I got my Instagram back, but that was after about
Speaker 1: a week of negotiating with this Nigerian guy who oh God,
Speaker 1: negotiated with me. And I eventually convinced him by saying,
Speaker 1: because I found out that he was, you know, needed
Speaker 1: money and he worried about his mum's health. I convinced
Speaker 1: him by saying, does your mum know that you're doing
Speaker 1: this to people? And he was like, no, you should
Speaker 1: be so disappointed in me. And then I said, reversed it.
Speaker 3: I an element, love it. You should work for us, Ben.
Speaker 1: Is there a job going? I just I just really
Speaker 1: appreciate psychology. I love that phrase, and I'm going to
Speaker 1: get it wrong. But you know, people tell you who
Speaker 1: they are, and it's very interesting because if you listen
Speaker 1: to people, you can gather so much information about them,
Speaker 1: and if you're evil, you can use that against them,
Speaker 1: or yes, if you're you, you can use it against
Speaker 1: them for the greater good.
Speaker 3: Exactly, right, Ben? Yeah, that's spot on.
Speaker 1: You know what. I'm going to be really honest about this.
Speaker 1: When I watched the first season the whole way through,
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed it, But then I had concerns about
Speaker 1: a season two because I was thinking, how much of
Speaker 1: these people that are going to come and try it
Speaker 1: and take it on this challenge have watched the season
Speaker 1: before and have learnt too much.
Speaker 2: That's a really good question, and I guess yes is
Speaker 2: the answer. Yes, we're always concerned about that because we
Speaker 2: don't want to run out of ideas and initiatives of
Speaker 2: how we might catch them. But once again, it goes
Speaker 2: down to real life, doesn't it. Every time a real
Speaker 2: life fugitive is caught and that person goes through court
Speaker 2: or those people go through the court and litigation process,
Speaker 2: all of the law enforcement and potentially intelligence services tactics
Speaker 2: come out as part of that litigation process. So in
Speaker 2: the real world, fugitives are learning every single day. They
Speaker 2: have the Internet, you know, the click of a button,
Speaker 2: they can find this stuff out. So we're dealing with
Speaker 2: what we would have to deal with in the real world.
Speaker 2: So it's completely realistic. But once again, I think it
Speaker 2: goes down to being mentally resilient and thinking of new
Speaker 2: and inventive ideas, even ones that we perhaps have never
Speaker 2: deployed before in our professional capacity, you know, thinking about
Speaker 2: really off the wall ideas that we can deploy as
Speaker 2: long as it's legal, as long as it's proportionate, and
Speaker 2: it's in the realms of the rules, in the parameters
Speaker 2: of the rules of the hunt, you know, we can
Speaker 2: do it. So it's also on us to be more inventive.
Speaker 2: So we've always got to look at ways of doing
Speaker 2: that as well.
Speaker 1: Did people return and do very similar things to last
Speaker 1: year or do you think that they all we had
Speaker 1: already worked out a plan that was sort of leveling up.
Speaker 3: I think the latter.
Speaker 2: I think people worked out a plan because they had
Speaker 2: watched the first season and potentially they've watched many seasons
Speaker 2: across the world of Hunted and worked out what the
Speaker 2: general mistakes are, what the patterns are. But once again,
Speaker 2: it goes back down to humans are creatures of habit.
Speaker 2: So whilst you might have what you think is the
Speaker 2: best plan possible, you can't account for being paranoid, tired, annoyed, hungry.
Speaker 2: You know, once you get to that mental state, the
Speaker 2: plan might go out the window, and most of the
Speaker 2: time it does, and you're dealing with stuff that you
Speaker 2: didn't know that you had to deal with, So your
Speaker 2: plan has to change, which makes you default to some
Speaker 2: of the tactics that have been happening forever. And that's
Speaker 2: just the fact of going on the run. You never
Speaker 2: know what you're going to come up against, and you
Speaker 2: never ever know when bad luck is going to slap
Speaker 2: you right in the face, and it's how you deal
Speaker 2: with it as you go through that.
Speaker 3: So you know, it's completely it's completely fair.
Speaker 2: It's so exciting because we literally don't know what we're
Speaker 2: going to walk into every single day, and neither do
Speaker 2: the fugitives.
Speaker 1: Well, I kind of felt, you know, straight away, and
Speaker 1: I think audiences around Australia will feel the same. But
Speaker 1: the contestants do seem more ambitious this year. They seem
Speaker 1: like they might be a little bit more hungrier. You know,
Speaker 1: you've been evolved with other, you know, international versions of
Speaker 1: this show. A good question to ask you from the
Speaker 1: comparison is what makes Australians different in the way that
Speaker 1: they try and take on this competition.
Speaker 2: I think the Australian fugitives have been hands down the
Speaker 2: toughest fugitives that I've ever had to deal with in
Speaker 2: doing the show in the British, the US versions, and
Speaker 2: obviously now the Aussie version. And I think that honestly
Speaker 2: comes down to the way the ossies are brought up,
Speaker 2: the way that they're parented, the way that the country
Speaker 2: encourage outdoor, hands on practical living. You've got the I guess,
Speaker 2: the the temperature, the environment for it. The country lends
Speaker 2: itself for you to get out and explore and be adventurous.
Speaker 2: And I think just having that in your experience as
Speaker 2: a child and into your teen years and into your
Speaker 2: adult life, being really sort of practically hands on and
Speaker 2: resilient has really helped them with being fugitives on this
Speaker 2: TV his show, which is annoying for us as hunters,
Speaker 2: because obviously we don't want all fugitives to be good,
Speaker 2: because our work will be a lot tougher. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I honestly think and I'm not just saying that the
Speaker 2: Aussie fugitives are the best I've ever dealt with because
Speaker 2: I'm doing the Aussie version. It is because I mean it,
Speaker 2: and they actually are. And I just think, yeah, your
Speaker 2: background and being able to be practical and mentally resilient.
Speaker 2: Gives you that confidence as well as a nation. So
Speaker 2: ultimately that's why I think they're the toughest fugitives I've
Speaker 2: ever had to deal with.
Speaker 1: It's interesting as well, Like you know, for me growing up,
Speaker 1: my parents both they were separated, but you know, whoever
Speaker 1: was looking after us, they encouraged us to be outside
Speaker 1: exactly A lot of our child a lot of my
Speaker 1: growing up was always encouraged to be socializing with all
Speaker 1: the other kids in the street and making up our
Speaker 1: own entertainment. And I now can see that they're large
Speaker 1: part of my creativity was sort of probably fostered in
Speaker 1: that way right at the start. So maybe it does
Speaker 1: lend itself to being able to think outside the box.
Speaker 2: I think so massively. And like you said, Ben, when
Speaker 2: you're you know, a child, and you're growing up and
Speaker 2: you're being a you're able to go over to another
Speaker 2: group of children and ingratiate yourself and learn about the
Speaker 2: different nuances in how different people live. You know, we've
Speaker 2: all got we all think inherently different, every single human being.
Speaker 2: We brought up with different parents with different influences, you know,
Speaker 2: some parents together. I was the same as you, Ben.
Speaker 2: My parents were divorced and I spent time at either side,
Speaker 2: and you know, so we all think different, we have
Speaker 2: different experiences. But once you learn that from other people,
Speaker 2: and the only way you're going to do that is
Speaker 2: is if you get out and about and do it,
Speaker 2: you're going to be a better rounded person. And I
Speaker 2: think naturally that lends itself to aliens as a general
Speaker 2: population of people.
Speaker 3: That absolutely is the case.
Speaker 1: Well, I feel like this is a really good compliment
Speaker 1: and I'm going to take.
Speaker 3: It so great. Take it. I mean it.
Speaker 1: You know, I might be reading into this differently, but
Speaker 1: you know, I thought that your relationships inside your surroundings
Speaker 1: seemed a little bit more intense. I must have been.
Speaker 1: I didn't notice if there was this change to too
Speaker 1: much of the people working with you, but it or
Speaker 1: maybe it's you know, we've evolved and the magic of
Speaker 1: TV looks like it's coming across better. But that intensity
Speaker 1: of how you are trying to track them does seem
Speaker 1: very intense compared to last year.
Speaker 3: I think you're right. I think it is.
Speaker 2: And again with the TV side, we're always trying to
Speaker 2: make it fast paced and lots of adrenaline I think
Speaker 2: that the rise in fugitives. So last year there was
Speaker 2: eighteen fugitives. This year we've got another two to deal with,
Speaker 2: so we've got more fugitives in a very short space
Speaker 2: of time. And again to put this in context, the
Speaker 2: UK version, generally speaking on the not the celebrity version,
Speaker 2: but the normal members of the public, we had around
Speaker 2: fourteen fugitives and we had twenty eight days to catch them.
Speaker 2: The Australian version we had twenty fugitives, so six more
Speaker 2: and seven days less to catch them. So I mean
Speaker 2: that's probably in part as to why you're seeing that intense,
Speaker 2: frantic nature and headquarters and out of the ground. It's
Speaker 2: just because we've got a lot of spinning plates, lots
Speaker 2: to deal with, and we never want to miss that
Speaker 2: low hanging fruit at the start of the process, because
Speaker 2: we know if we catch people at the very start
Speaker 2: of the process in the first twenty four to forty
Speaker 2: eight hours, we know what benefit that gives us as
Speaker 2: a hunter team one week, two weeks down the line
Speaker 2: with resources and brain power and you know, being able
Speaker 2: to spread our resources a bit better. So that's probably
Speaker 2: why you're seeing much more intense nature in headquarters because
Speaker 2: naturally we've just got a lot more to deal with
Speaker 2: at that point.
Speaker 1: You know. Also, the if I was to be doing
Speaker 1: this type of a show, I wouldn't get anyone involved.
Speaker 1: I know that there's some people that have pre arranged
Speaker 1: for and family to help them. I feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: you're getting other people involved is just too much, almost
Speaker 1: like a paper trail that you just don't need. I
Speaker 1: personally would not be wanting to get other people to
Speaker 1: help drive me or house me. What about you? Do
Speaker 1: you think that you would try and isolate yourself as
Speaker 1: much as possible and try not to involve others, or
Speaker 1: do you think it's important to use those techniques.
Speaker 2: I think it really depends on the situation, the geographical location,
Speaker 2: and what part of the process you're in, because you
Speaker 2: could use your associates to your advantage if you're using
Speaker 2: them correctly. And the way I would probably use them
Speaker 2: is not to physically go to them, but maybe use
Speaker 2: them as decoys or to drag hunters into certain areas
Speaker 2: of the state. And I'm going to be the other
Speaker 2: side of it kind of thing. So there's obviously huge
Speaker 2: disadvantages to doing that because you've got to make contact
Speaker 2: and that contact might be the bit that hunters find
Speaker 2: out about.
Speaker 3: But if you're doing it correctly.
Speaker 2: With covert methods of communication, and you're deploying your associates
Speaker 2: to your advantage, it's actually massively tages if it works.
Speaker 2: If it doesn't, it could bite you on the backside.
Speaker 2: So my answer to that is it depends on several
Speaker 2: variables on that. So sorry to sit on the fence.
Speaker 1: I love it. I've just that these are all the
Speaker 1: questions that you know. I've spent twelve months thinking about
Speaker 1: what i'd ask. You know, I need to ask spend
Speaker 1: these questions. I reckon here to have the answers. You know,
Speaker 1: how long I mean you personally? How long could you
Speaker 1: do you think you could possibly spend? Keep three hundred dollars?
Speaker 1: I mean three hundred dollars is the budget that these
Speaker 1: guys have got. How long could three hundred dollars last year?
Speaker 3: It's a tough question.
Speaker 2: I think I think it would probably last quite a while.
Speaker 3: I would use it to best effect.
Speaker 2: I would probably be leveraging, and I don't want to
Speaker 2: give too much away for future fugitives as we go on,
Speaker 2: but I would certainly be leveraging. Maybe the homeless community.
Speaker 2: I'd be leveraging anything, maybe the religious community in any way,
Speaker 2: shape or form.
Speaker 3: And getting some assistance there. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I it's a difficult one to answer, but I
Speaker 2: guess the overarching question is could I go on the
Speaker 2: run and win?
Speaker 3: And I think as much as I would like to.
Speaker 2: Say yes, because I have the experience of catching people,
Speaker 2: and in reverse, I would know how not to be caught. However,
Speaker 2: what I would always say is you can never account
Speaker 2: for bad luck. It doesn't matter how experienced you are.
Speaker 2: You never know when bad luck is around the corner.
Speaker 2: You turn the corner and it punches you straight in
Speaker 2: the face and you don't know how to deal with it.
Speaker 2: So you can never say yes. But I would like
Speaker 2: to think i'd give it a very good run.
Speaker 1: Maybe. Well, let's just let's workshop this because we had
Speaker 1: seen in the UK that you know, after a couple
Speaker 1: of seasons, you did a celebrity version. So if we
Speaker 1: do a celebrity version here in Australia, would you be
Speaker 1: interested in being one of the celebrities on that show.
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I thought he was going to say,
Speaker 2: what celebrity? Why do I want to track down and
Speaker 2: my answer to that would be Kylie Minogue.
Speaker 1: Of course, she's already p dumb and spinning around. Should
Speaker 1: be too hard to find, my friend. I think it
Speaker 1: sounds good in theory, but I don't know if you'd
Speaker 1: be able to catch Carlim. And you know, no man
Speaker 1: has really been able to catch Calm. So there you go.
Speaker 3: You know what. You're right, Ben, You're right. I might
Speaker 3: have to rethink that one won't.
Speaker 2: But I guess to answer your question, well, I wouldn't
Speaker 2: think i'd class as a celebrity anyway.
Speaker 3: However, I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I would always rather stay team Hunter. So if I
Speaker 2: could dabble and try it and then go back to Hunters, yes,
Speaker 2: if it meant I had to be fugitive forever, then
Speaker 2: definitely not. I'm definitely team Hunter all the way.
Speaker 1: I just think we'll do the one. So when we
Speaker 1: do our celebrity version here in Australia, we're going to
Speaker 1: hit you up for it. I reckon you'd be great.
Speaker 2: Go for it, a big good laugh, won and never
Speaker 2: say never say no, just say yes and deal with
Speaker 2: it later.
Speaker 1: This is this show now, I mean you're in different
Speaker 1: versions around you know the globe, So you know, has
Speaker 1: this taken over your life? I mean you still able
Speaker 1: to do the work that you were originally trained and
Speaker 1: trained in. Do you do you'll still do that or
Speaker 1: or has your life become more about taking part of
Speaker 1: this show? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I mean Hunted is a huge part of my calendar.
Speaker 2: I only do the Australian version now, so I'm very
Speaker 2: loyal to the Aussie so I just I just do
Speaker 2: the Australian version, okay, And I absolutely adore coming over
Speaker 2: to your beautiful country. I spent a good few months
Speaker 2: over there filming the show. But yeah, most of my
Speaker 2: most of my year is dealing with my day to
Speaker 2: day job, which is in cybersecurity, so lots of travel,
Speaker 2: lots of talking, but ultimately people always want to get
Speaker 2: down to the nitty gritty and ask me about the show.
Speaker 2: So I spent a lot of my talking about it
Speaker 2: and a small part of it filming it.
Speaker 1: I just love because you can hear how much you
Speaker 1: love this show. And you know, I spoke to at
Speaker 1: last year while the show was on, and you know,
Speaker 1: it was very rare that you could tweet somebody who
Speaker 1: is a part of a show and have them tweet bag.
Speaker 2: Then I'm so humbled and fortunate to be to have
Speaker 2: been asked to come over to your wonderful country and
Speaker 2: do your version. Like, honestly, I have to pinch myself sometimes,
Speaker 2: I'm so lucky to be the only, for want of
Speaker 2: a better word, outsider if you like the non ossie.
Speaker 2: So I'm so happy to be doing it. And yeah, honestly,
Speaker 2: we've always tried to converse as much as possible in
Speaker 2: line with the people that love the show, because without
Speaker 2: people watching it, we wouldn't be doing it. So you know,
Speaker 2: why wouldn't we do that? And that will always be
Speaker 2: the same. We'll always talk to you guys and have
Speaker 2: some fun along the way.
Speaker 1: Well, that's certainly what it is, you know, before you go.
Speaker 1: My last question, what is something from behind the scenes
Speaker 1: of this show that you could possibly reveal? Now, I
Speaker 1: don't want to give away too many secrets because this
Speaker 1: show works, I think with some of that magic that
Speaker 1: we kind of need to leave to the side, But
Speaker 1: is there anything that you can share with us, something
Speaker 1: that we won't see on the show, Like, did anything
Speaker 1: unusual happen in the production when you were trying to
Speaker 1: track people down? Was there a funny anecdote that happened
Speaker 1: throughout filming this season of season two.
Speaker 2: Well, I was on an interview before this, and it
Speaker 2: was made aware to me that I keep saying these
Speaker 2: phrases that at the time I completely forget i've said.
Speaker 2: I don't even realize I've set them. So season one,
Speaker 2: for example, I was just chatting away to a fellow
Speaker 2: hunter in HQ and said, oh, I've got my capture
Speaker 2: pants on, and that was one of the you know,
Speaker 2: one of the biggest punchlines on the show, and I
Speaker 2: didn't I don't even remember saying it, because, honestly, in headquarters,
Speaker 2: the camera operators are so good, they're so professional, you
Speaker 2: don't even realize they're there. They're just hoovering up all
Speaker 2: of what's going on in headquarters. And apparently one of
Speaker 2: my phrases this year is I have a warm and
Speaker 2: fuzzy feeling in my pants or words to that effect,
Speaker 2: which I honestly then I don't remember saying at all.
Speaker 2: So I'm not sure what episode that might come out in.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's one two or whatever.
Speaker 1: But also I want to know what was going on
Speaker 1: that day. I don't want to know it like it's
Speaker 1: really hard to read.
Speaker 3: God knows, God knows, that's what I mean.
Speaker 2: I don't even remember saying I probably would have reworded
Speaker 2: it if I'd thought about it, but it was a
Speaker 2: fun fact for It was my fortieth birthday whilst filming
Speaker 2: the show, so it was in the heat of the hunt.
Speaker 2: We had a lovely dinner to celebrate my FORTI if
Speaker 2: on season two filming.
Speaker 1: Wow, oh my gosh, Well I can't believe. Sorry, I
Speaker 1: had no idea that you were forty. You look very young,
Speaker 1: look very youthful. Maybe you've been indulging in some of
Speaker 1: the spars that we have here in Australia.
Speaker 3: People wish I had time.
Speaker 1: I just want to say thank you so much for
Speaker 1: your generosity with chatting with me. I've had such a
Speaker 1: fun time talking to you. I almost knew that I
Speaker 1: would because I kind of have that weird brain of
Speaker 1: being fascinated by this sort of stuff. So thank you
Speaker 1: for taking the time to chat with me.
Speaker 2: You're very welcome, Ben, It's been absolute pleasure. And thanks
Speaker 2: to everyone for listening to your podcast and watching the
Speaker 2: show and appreciate it.