1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: I never think or know that I'm there. I always 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: believe I can be better. When you accept that there's 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 1: a performance aspect to what you do, It's very easy 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: to develop ticks without really realizing it. It might be 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: referencing a monitor, turning your head, developing an intonation, a 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: pausing so pausing, inflection, tone pace. All of that are 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: the unknowns that people don't realize, the work that goes 8 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: into it, the other aspect of what it is you 9 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 1: do that should be seamless. So I look for all 10 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: those sort of things all the time. Every good interview, 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: I think is about discovering something. I think it's all 12 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: about the art of discovery. And I think if you 13 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: try to find something someone else doesn't know or hasn't considered, 14 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: then it makes your conversation unique and special. 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactic 16 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 17 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 2: their day. 18 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 3: I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imbach. 19 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, 20 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 2: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. 21 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 2: My guest today is Sandra Sully, who I feel for 22 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 2: Australian listeners really needs no introduction. So Sandra is of 23 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 2: course one of the most recognized and respected phases on 24 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 2: Australian television. So she is a journalist, senior editor and 25 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 2: presenter with ten Eyewitnessed News First at five, and she 26 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 2: has been literally on our TVs reading the news since 27 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nearly thirty years, and since twenty eighteen she's 28 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 2: also been the managing news editor at ten Daily And 29 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 2: on top of that, she recently launched a podcast called 30 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 2: Short Black through Network ten, where she chats to various 31 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: women who have something interesting to say. Now, at this point, 32 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 2: it's probably worth me mentioning how Sandra. 33 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 3: And I met. So months ago, I was. 34 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 2: At a big business women's conference where I was speaking 35 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: and Sandra was also speaking as well. In fact, she 36 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: was doing some of the interviews as part of the conference. 37 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 2: One of the women that she interviewed was Julie Bishop, 38 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 2: which was just a phenomenal interview. And I was watching Sandra, 39 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 2: who was just a masterful, masterful interviewer, and I was thinking, ooh, 40 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 2: I would. 41 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 3: Love to have her on the show. 42 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 2: So I during the final day of the conference, I thought, okay, 43 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 2: I'm going to work up the courage to go up 44 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 2: to her because I was a little bit intimidated. But 45 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 2: before I could find her, she actually found me and 46 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:48,119 Speaker 2: said that she loved my presentation, which was lovely, and 47 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 2: wanted me to be on her podcast, to which I said, sure, 48 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 2: I'll do that if you're on mine. So that is 49 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 2: how she ended up on the show. And it's worth 50 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 2: me saying because Sandra liked me is an efficiency nerd. 51 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: We actually recorded the interviews back to back, so Sandra 52 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: had me on her show and then straight after I 53 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 2: had her on mine. So I love chatting with Sandra. 54 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: She is just such a wonderful person. We cover all 55 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: sorts of things, from her cure for insomnia, which I 56 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 2: found fascinating, through to what it's like reading the news. 57 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 2: She read the late news for many, many years, and 58 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 2: we talk about what are actually the hardest things about 59 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: reading the news and how some of the things that 60 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 2: she does to constantly improve her performance, which I just 61 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: found fascinating. So I think you'll love this chat with Sandra. 62 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: And on that note, let's go over to Sandra to 63 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: hear about how she works. 64 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 3: Sandra, welcome to the show. 65 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. 66 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 3: Well this is kind of fun me interviewing you. Now 67 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 3: that you've interviewed. 68 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: Me, it is kind of cool, I have to say. 69 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: And again, very efficient. 70 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: Very efficient. So you have said that you are an 71 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: efficiency kind of nerdy, Tell me, like, what. 72 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 3: Are some of the things that you do that maybe 73 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 3: would surprise people around just how efficiently you run different 74 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 3: aspects of your life. 75 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: Well, I think efficiency is really in the eye of 76 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: the beholder, and I might be deluding myself. Maybe I 77 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: think I'm very efficient and others would argue I'm inefficient. 78 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, but I'm someone that always has needed 79 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: a calendar and worked out I need to quarantine my 80 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: time so that other people don't trespass. Perhaps it was 81 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: those seventeen and a half eighteen years on that news 82 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: that forced me to sort of work out where my 83 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: boundaries were and become a bit of a stickler for them. 84 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 1: And also, my previous life before journalism was health and fitness, 85 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: and I was forever confronted with people that say I 86 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: just don't have the time. Well, you can make time, 87 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: you just choose not to, and sometimes life does get 88 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: in the way. I'm, you know, a hugely empathetic person 89 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: to my own detriment At times. I get that, and 90 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: it can be real mind shift to start exercising if 91 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: it wasn't in your DNA as a kid. And you know, 92 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: it's not your go to space. For me, it's feeling 93 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: healthy and feeling good. I'm not a saint, far from it, 94 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 1: but I have always diarized exercise time. 95 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 3: Really, so you put like exercise in your diary as ainment. 96 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: For thirty years, really how many times a week? Well, 97 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: because I used to work in that industry before I 98 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: became a journalist. You know, working was being paid to 99 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: keep fit. And then when I stepped out of that 100 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: and fell into journalism, I was still you know, teaching 101 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: aerobics classes or working out of the morning or training 102 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 1: or whatever. So I would have to make sure I 103 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 1: could meet my other commitments and what mornings could commit 104 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: to doing those things. And then I moved to Canberra 105 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: with journalism, and I you know would work out roughly 106 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: how many times a week I needed to go to 107 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 1: the gym, mix that up with going for a run, 108 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: and so I'm you know, I've always known you need 109 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: to make sure you make time not just for you, 110 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: but for your health. Otherwise, wake up and it's too 111 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: late totally. 112 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 3: I love that it's so funny. Just in the last 113 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 3: few weeks, I've also started. 114 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: Diorizing my gym visits, which I just used to kind 115 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: of just do naturally, and it. 116 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: Just gave it in because it was an afterthought. 117 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, but now it's in my diary. 118 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 2: So what else is in your diary that would surprise 119 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 2: people in terms of quarantining time for different things? 120 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: My work hours when at the minimum time I have 121 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: to be here every day and roughly when I leave. 122 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: So while I work from home every morning, you know, 123 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: for an hour or two depending on the day, and 124 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: some days I'm in quite early, from midday to seven 125 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: seven thirty is blocked out every day just as a 126 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:37,679 Speaker 1: given for the whole year. 127 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 2: And then with that seven hours meetings aside. Is there 128 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 2: anything else that you're putting in. 129 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: My pilates session. It might be a stretch session, it'll 130 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: be a session with the physio, all the you know, 131 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: the personal grooming, personal appointments, all of everything is in 132 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: social time and commitments that I may have professionally and 133 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: or my husband's. So I love the shared diary. So 134 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: I have a shared diary with my husband and I. 135 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: And that includes you know, holidays, so that you can 136 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: actually plan and then you know, when you book a flight, 137 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: it goes into that day with everything you need for 138 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: that day. We have a family diary, so I will 139 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: allocate you know that it might be the days of 140 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: Nanni's required, the days of Nanni's paid, how much daughter's 141 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: hockey commitments, choir commitments, a tutor, whatever is going on, 142 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: that is all in the diary. And it's all color coded. 143 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 3: Oh my god, that sounds so organized. I love it. 144 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: Is that too much? 145 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 3: No, it's not too much. Not in my life. It 146 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 3: sounds amazing. 147 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: But I think when you're kids, people would put up 148 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: that big calendar or that had something on the fridge. 149 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: And I think, because I've always been an early adopter 150 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: with digital, I think the concept of the shared shared 151 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: calendar is quite brilliant. You know, so my daughter, my husband, 152 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: and I are in the shared family calendar, and my 153 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: husband and I are in our shared calendar. 154 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: And is this just through Google Calendar or a specific 155 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: calendar app that you're. 156 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: We're just on Apple, but you can do it on 157 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: Google as well. But for me, I need to know 158 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: how am I going to manage my week where's my downtime? 159 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: Where is an evening commitment? Where am I going to lose? 160 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: Where do I need to say? Yeah, I can do 161 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: all of that, but I need to know at the 162 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: weekend I can hide, recover, recuperate because I'm going to 163 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 1: need it on that. 164 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: I guess like having the downtime because I imagine your work 165 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 2: would be intense and it would be hard to switch 166 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: off given the new cycle as twenty four to seven 167 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: these days, like how do you decide what to say 168 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 2: yes to and what to say no to so that 169 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: you do protect that downtime? 170 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: Again with late news, it allowed me to develop some 171 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: early techniques in quarantining time. I don't think any of 172 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: us are very good saying no as well as we'd 173 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: like to. So some of the early strategies I adopted 174 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: is that I worked out my priorities when it came 175 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: to my charity alignments, and they are the ones that 176 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: get most. They get the time that I have for 177 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: those that For example, in the corporate world, some of 178 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: those jobs are lucrative and you need to make time 179 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: because it makes sense and they're going to pay arguably 180 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: more for you to do that work while you're on 181 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: the telly and you still are seen as that person 182 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: and it has to be the right fit for all 183 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: the right reasons before you say yes, and you have 184 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: to be able to do it, et cetera. But I 185 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: worked out that you can't. Well you want to help everyone, 186 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: you simply can't. So once I worked out my priority 187 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: charity giving list, then that's essentially what I say yes to, 188 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: and the majority of the rest I say no unless 189 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: there's been some backdoor access that I've allowed through, and 190 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: that's my own fault. But arguably, do you know what 191 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: I mean? Yeah? 192 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely? How do you say no? What are your 193 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 3: strategies for saying no politely? Because I imagine you would. 194 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 3: You know, given what you said, You're gonna have to 195 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 3: say a lot of no's in your life. 196 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: You will. 197 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: Sometimes it depends on mental or physical health because you 198 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: always feel bad. But generally what I'll say is, look, 199 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: I've got my core charities that I'm aligned to and 200 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: they take up a lot of my time, and outside 201 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: of that and family, I don't have much time lab 202 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: so I'm really sorry. If I can help you next year, 203 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: please stay in touch and always run it by me, 204 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: because if I can, I will yeah, if I can't, 205 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: I tell you I can't. 206 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 2: And is it a similar strategy, just that honesty, because 207 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 2: I imagine you would get so many emails and cause 208 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 2: of people like young journalism students going can I pick 209 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 2: your brain over coffee? 210 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 3: Will you mentor me? Well, you like you must get 211 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 3: so much of that. 212 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, look I do, and I'm not going to complain. 213 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: I feel very privileged. So I'm always mindful of the 214 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 1: need to give back and to keep that ladder down 215 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: as opposed to pulling it up behind you. I know 216 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: plenty of colleagues that do that, and I just think, really, 217 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: you know you've got every hand up on the way through. 218 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: You need to hand back, give back. It's really important. Again, 219 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: it's about managing time, and so I would say to them, look, 220 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: the next two months for me, you know, batshit crazy. 221 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: I just can't. I wish I could stay in contact 222 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: and we'll try and work out a time that suits. Generally. 223 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: For example, we have a little cafe next door to 224 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: us here at ten. I know when I work, so 225 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: again I can look at my diary and I'll say 226 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: if I need to be in at ten most days 227 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: at midday, I work out which day of the week. 228 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: I can meet you at eleven. You got forty minutes. 229 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: That's it, do you know what I mean? So it's 230 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: not interrupting my transport time. It's still driving at the 231 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: same place. It takes the same amount of time for 232 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 1: me to get to work, but I'll deviate and give 233 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: them thirty minutes to forty minutes. At the cafe next door, 234 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: I can have a butte toweet with them. It's the 235 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: right environment. But again, it's not stretching me other than 236 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: giving them my time because time is the most precious 237 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: thing for me, and asking me to then, you know, 238 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: drive to Zeteland on no, yeah, you know. And when 239 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 1: I finish work, no, I'm staffed, family time. Want to 240 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 1: get home. You know, it's been a busy day because 241 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: for me, I start from home at roughly six, you know, 242 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: six point thirty. But I can do that remotely anywhere 243 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: I am because because of the social requirements in the 244 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: digital space, it might just be Twitter. A lot of 245 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: people are outside of news, aren't really in the echo 246 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: chamber of Twitter, and I get that. I'm not a 247 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: big fan of Facebook, but I've got family and friends 248 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: on Facebook. I'm only on Facebook really relatively recently, and 249 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: really it's only as that news person other than a 250 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: private family messaging group. That's how we stay connected. But 251 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: we can do that on what's happened text messaging. So look, 252 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: I've worked out a long time ago. There's only so 253 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: much time in the day. I can't be everywhere, and 254 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: I choose not to be. I enjoy Instagram when I 255 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: have time. Twitter is pretty all consuming, mostly because of 256 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: what I do. But nine literally, I've been on Twitter 257 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: for seven eight years or longer, and I rarely tweet 258 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 1: on weekends. So for example, I just say, well, I'm 259 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: not on yeah, yeah, Well I might look at it 260 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: because I'm interested in the news cycle, and I'll choose 261 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 1: when I want a social something. But I don't feel 262 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: any need to be Sandra Solli, the journalist in the 263 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: Twitter sphere on weekends. And I used to say to 264 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: all my colleagues, if you're constantly on, when are you not? 265 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: When are you down? When are you off? When are 266 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: you sleeping? When are you having fun? 267 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 2: Like? 268 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: You must switch off You'll go mad. 269 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 2: So you're starting at six point thirty in the morning, 270 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 2: take me through how like? So I imagine your first 271 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 2: thing that you're doing is getting across the news, like 272 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 2: what's happened overnight? 273 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 3: Is that fair? So how do you get across the news? 274 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 3: What does that look like? 275 00:13:58,720 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 2: You know? 276 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 3: Caite download for which one is. 277 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: The os, the Terror of the Daily Telegraphs, City Morning 278 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: Herald and the finn I have a quick look at 279 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: the Guardian. I subscribe to the Guardian, New York Times, 280 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: Washington Post, so I'll have a quick scan. I mean, 281 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: over the years you've learned how to kind of quickly scan. 282 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 3: How do you quickly scan? What does that look like? 283 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: Well, headlines, front page, yep, there are the stories that 284 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: screen at you for a reason. When you're on Twitter. 285 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: I've created lists on Twitter. So while I just my 286 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: inbox is just not the constant feed of everyone I follow, 287 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: I really look at that. I look at my lists, 288 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: which is a curated list of the people I find 289 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: the most important ones to hear. 290 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 3: Who are some of those? 291 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: It might be CNN, BBC, Reuters, it might be your 292 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: major news editors around the world. It'll be our ten team, 293 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: it'll be our ten Daily team, it'll be the Project team, 294 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: It'll be Radio National. That's why I'm I fell in 295 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: love with radio probably over twenty years ago and when 296 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: I started late news, I and I grew up very 297 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: much in a TV family. I find TV very relaxing 298 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: and helps me sleep. But because I find television so relaxing, 299 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: so I might have got home and Wimbledon was on 300 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: before I knew it was four o'clock, and then I'd 301 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: have to get up at midday and be in here 302 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: at two or three. I was just started. So I 303 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: did a lot of study on sleep, and I realized 304 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: that you need to shut down all of the stimulus, 305 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: the visual stimulus, but I couldn't switch my brain off. 306 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: The biggest adrenaline rush of my day was in the 307 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: last half hour my shift. So if you're asking most 308 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: people to knock off at five and be home in 309 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: bed asleep by six, they would say you're Matt. But 310 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: everyone expected me to be at home in bed asleep 311 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: by twelve thirty one o'clock. So I realized that while 312 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: I could turn off all the blue lights and the 313 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: white lights and make the room dark, how did I 314 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: switch my brain off? Because I'm a thinker and I'm 315 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: a list maker, I'm not so much a planner. Despite 316 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: being connected to the diary. Once it's in the diary. 317 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: I've let it go from my list because I know 318 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: I've allocated space and time for it, right, So I thought, 319 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: I need to listen to something that stops me ruminating 320 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: about whatever it is. It might be relationships, it might 321 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: be family, it might be how I'm going to manage 322 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: next week, whatever it is. And so then I fell 323 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: in love with tune in radio and I would listen 324 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: to BBC, you know, in the UK, and I'd go 325 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: to bed listening to great chat and people would say, well, 326 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: didn't that keep you up? And I said, look, I 327 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: think the analogy I always made was it's a little 328 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: bit like a kid reading a story. When you read 329 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: a story and you put them to bed, you stop 330 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: them thinking, they stop being scared or whatever's going on 331 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: in their little brain. And we never really grow up. 332 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: We're always just that little brain. Might just get overwhelmed 333 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: and overloaded or more mature, but it's still the same triggers. 334 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: I think play And I'm not an academic. This is 335 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: just you know, Sandra tom Fillery, who knows. But for 336 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: me what worked was if I was listening to something 337 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: really interesting and I was dog tired, fatigue would take over. 338 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: But my brain would stop. And it always worked like that. 339 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 3: As a cure for insomnia and rumination and any other 340 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 3: things that have worked for you, Like with all the 341 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 3: reading of done about sleep. 342 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: Well, you do need to turn off all the stimuli, 343 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: and you do need to So it might be podcasts 344 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: and I don't get to engage because I can always 345 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: go back and listen to it again. News it doesn't 346 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: matter because it's tomorrow's fish Rapper. But for over twenty 347 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: five plus years I've been going to bed listening to 348 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: the radio. So then you know, when my first marriage 349 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: broke down and and I met my current husband, I thought, gosh, 350 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: what if he doesn't you know, what if he's a 351 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: light sleeper. And I know a lot of other people 352 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: who love to listen to the radio. It helps them, 353 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: and you know that they're married to light sleepers, so 354 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 1: they've got to manage earphones and that's tricky. And I 355 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: was very lucky. My husband was an early adopter and 356 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: he find he loves it. I mean he always goes 357 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: to bed either listening to podcasts or the radio. So 358 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: it might be hard Chat BBC UK Radio. We might 359 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: listen to I Love WNYC, New York Public Radio. 360 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 2: I want to ask you, because that's kind of interesting 361 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 2: what you say around when you were doing the late 362 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 2: shift with news, that the most adrenaline filled part of 363 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 2: your day was right at the end of your shift. 364 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 2: What is the hardest part about reading the news? 365 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 1: Look, I'm a journalist by trade, so the perception is, 366 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 1: you know, you're a news presenter, and it's all about 367 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: the ego of being on Telly. And Look, everyone in 368 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: every walk of life has ego. It's part of our DNA. 369 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: Some have more than others, and in television some have 370 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: a lot more than others. I've certainly got ego, but 371 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: I think it's pretty well in check. And I only 372 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: has to take because it's really for others to judge, 373 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: and you know, I know who I am. What a 374 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: lot of people don't realize is that there is a 375 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: real performance aspect to what you do. And I never 376 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: used to take that as seriously as I've learned to appreciate. 377 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:30,479 Speaker 1: So you have to manage the performance side of it. 378 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: So I was once told a long time ago that 379 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: for every hour you're on television, it's equivalent to about 380 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: three hours work. Wow, because of the energy you intensity 381 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: and the intensity of that hour and the ebb and flow, 382 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: the peaks and troughs, and then you know you'll have updates. 383 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: During the day, You'll be writing updates, and there is 384 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: just the adrenaline it goes with a big story, et cetera. 385 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: So the hardest part of any day really is getting 386 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: it right and doing a good job. And I reflect 387 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: on that every day. So I don't look back at 388 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: the bulletin every night, but pretty often. 389 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 3: Do you say, analyzing your performance? 390 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: Yeah? 391 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, what sort of things that you're looking for 392 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 2: when you're watching yourself back? 393 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: Like you, I know you appreciate the fact that you 394 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: always feel like you can keep learning. I never think 395 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: or know that I'm there. I always believe I can 396 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: be better. When you accept that there's a performance aspect 397 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: to what you do. It's very easy to develop ticks 398 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 1: without really realasing it. It might be referencing a monitor, 399 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: turning your head, developing an intonation, pausing someone Just recently, 400 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: is you know, complaining on Twitter to me quite often 401 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: about my phrasing when I read, And I think, well, 402 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: you know, you're comparing men and women. Men and women 403 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: have different chess capacities, And I am very deliberate in 404 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: my phrasing and pausing based on what I believe I 405 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: can deliver with punch and authority. So you know, your 406 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: two paragraphs for an introduction, for example, are structured around 407 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: a number of phrases with keywords that makes sense of 408 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: the story. Like the introduction is written for a reason, 409 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: and it's got to be delivered with not just not 410 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: so much with impact, but with the right emphasis in 411 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: the right space. So I'm very mindful that if I'm 412 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: in someone's living room, and that is always a privilege, 413 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: they're not necessarily watching me. They're often just hearing me, right, 414 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: So mums and dads. Shift workers might be in the 415 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: kitchen getting dinner ready, or tomorrow's breakfast if they're a 416 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: shift worker, or tonight's lunch if they're shift. Do you 417 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: know what I mean. So they're in the kitchen, they're listening, 418 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: So I need to emphasize the keywords that make sense 419 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: of the story. Hopefully they'll come out of the kitchen 420 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: and watch. But if they don't have time to watch, 421 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: I need them to hear what was critical about the story. 422 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: So pausing, inflection, tone, pace, all of that are the 423 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,439 Speaker 1: you know, the unknowns that people don't realize that the 424 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: work that goes into it, the other aspect of what 425 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: it is you do that should be seamless. So I 426 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 1: look for all those sort of things all the time, 427 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: and then you know I did address work. Was that 428 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,719 Speaker 1: top right? Oh gosh, no, you know that the like whatever? 429 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: You know, Like, there's so many people see you before 430 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: they hear you. They're always judging you on on your 431 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: hair and your voice and your outfit, And then I think, 432 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: what about what I said? My job is to make 433 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: sure at the end of the day that you know, 434 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: I get it more right than wrong. I lead that 435 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: to others to judge, but I have to feel comfortable 436 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: in myself that I'm consistently of a standard I'm proud of, 437 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: you know. 438 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 3: I'm just loving that you're watching yourself back like that 439 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 3: really surprises me, not. 440 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: For any ego that in fact it can always be 441 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: because I think I say to the makeup and hairdresses 442 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: every day, you know, they said, you know, what do 443 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: you want to learn? Really, I've been asking for thirty 444 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: years to come out of this area and look like 445 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: Cindy Crawford, and you just buddy give me me every day, like, 446 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: come on, guys, anyway I do you best because I 447 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: can't do it. 448 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: I want to ask about that, and absolutely, like I mean, 449 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 2: I just the idea of watching yourself because it's something 450 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 2: like I remember when I was learning how to present, 451 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 2: like to be a speaker, the best learning for me 452 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 2: was watching myself present, which is absolutely excruciating. And also 453 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 2: like now that I do the podcast, listening to podcast 454 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 2: episodes when I'm doing the editing process, excruciating but so 455 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 2: important because you identify all those ticks, and I do 456 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 2: want to ask you don't use filler words like it 457 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 2: blows my mind. Like we've been talking before in our interview, 458 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 2: when I've seen your interview other people, like at the 459 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 2: conference where we met, you just don't. 460 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,959 Speaker 3: Use filler words. It seems like I feel like you 461 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 3: don't what a filler word, Like you know those here 462 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 3: all the time. Really, I feel if I just don't 463 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 3: not hear them, I feel like you don't. That's so funny. 464 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: You're wincing at your speech patterns, and I WinCE at 465 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 1: mine because we're never happy. Yeah yeah, and so I 466 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: don't hear yours, but you're too close to yours. 467 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 3: So you and I'll edit them all out anyway correct right, And. 468 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: I'm always I'm always struggling to get the phrasing right 469 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: and thinking, you know, don't be so deliberate or slow 470 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: to respond, And then I can only ever hear pausing, 471 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: arming and a ring and just on that. Have you 472 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: noticed the American speech pattern? They really do it, and 473 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: they learn it from a very young age at school. 474 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: It's quite extraordinary. 475 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 2: That's interesting, I have noticed that, really extraordinary. Wow, I'm 476 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 2: going to listen out for that. I want to ask 477 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 2: about the visual side of things, because obviously a lot 478 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 2: of what you do is not on TV, but the 479 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 2: most well known part of what you do is, and 480 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 2: just the scrutiny that must happen like being on TV 481 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 2: so many days of your life. What are tricks and 482 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 2: hacks and things that you've picked up to just make 483 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 2: the visual part of your job easier, whether that be 484 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 2: tips from makeup artists, posing for folk like, what are these? 485 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 2: What are the best things that you've learned? 486 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 1: Well, surround yourself with good people. Yeah, so I've had 487 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: the same stylists for probably thirty years who I met 488 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: when I first started here. But critically, I think too, 489 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: you have to study those in your world who you 490 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 1: admire and respect, and then to ask yourself, then ask 491 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: yourself why and what it is about them that you 492 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: admire so that you can never be anyone else, but 493 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: you can be the best you. And how did they 494 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: do it? What are their tricks? Not so much that 495 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: you ask them, but study them, you know. So when 496 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: I grew up, I never knew I was going to 497 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: be a journalist, but you know, worke up as one 498 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: serendipitously completely. But I remember I was, you know, completely 499 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: smitten with young event because I thought she was just strong. 500 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: Yes she was gorgeous, but you know, she had impact. 501 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: It was pausing, inflection, tone, intellect, all of the above. 502 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: And so I thought, what was it that made her 503 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: so good? And she used you know, several tricks and 504 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: I didn't study it endlessly. But what I always say 505 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: to younger journalists is you can never be anyone else 506 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: but you, but it's up to you to be the 507 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: best you that you can be. One of the reasons 508 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: I look back, if it's not every week at my work, 509 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: it might be every you know, two or three times 510 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: over two weeks, is to create some distance between the 511 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: performance I've just executed and what it actually looks like 512 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: at home. You find some objectivity, you find some perspective, 513 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: and then I think, oh, you know that color. I 514 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: like it on you. It's not just all about the reading. 515 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: You know, people see you before they hear you. So 516 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: you're in people's lunge rooms, you know, when you knock 517 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 1: on the door, I lays say to young journalists, like, 518 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: why is it all about what you what you look 519 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: like in people's homes? Right, you've opened the front gate. 520 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: You're at the front door, so i'e unseen. They open 521 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,959 Speaker 1: the door and bang they see. What's the first thing 522 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: they do? They actually physically lean back. They I bore 523 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: you head to toe and then they zero in and say, yes, 524 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: what do you want from me? Right, so when they 525 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: turn on the television, you need to be the least 526 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: defensive in as many areas as possible so that they 527 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: don't go and turn you off. And that can be 528 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: you know, hair and makeup and outfit. So they need 529 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: to all kind of be relatively seamless and gosh over. 530 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: You know, thirty years in January, you learn how to 531 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: be the least defensive as possible in as many areas, 532 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: relying on people that are really good at what they do. 533 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: So you know, you don't go to a headresser to 534 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: get your teeth fixed. I got. I have a really 535 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: good stylist, and I believe she's She's helped me tremendously, 536 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: and I've picked up tips of the trade, you know, 537 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: in that I know what kind of works for me 538 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: and what doesn't. I don't always get it right, and 539 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter as long as I don't consistently 540 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: get it wrong. 541 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. 542 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, if I sweat all the negativity, and I 543 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 4: learned early on, I'm not going to please everybody, and 544 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 4: not everyone's going to like me, and I'm actually okay 545 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 4: with it as long as the majority don't. 546 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: Otherwise I'm in big trouble. Well, how do you. 547 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 3: Deal with that? 548 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 2: Because like being being such a public figure, and particularly 549 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 2: with social media where everyone feels like they've got a 550 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 2: right to comment and criticize anyone. How like what's your 551 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 2: approach to dealing with kind of like the more public criticism, 552 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 2: particularly on social media. 553 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: I look early on, I would if it was aggressive, insulting, 554 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: in appropriate, and just block, delete and block every now 555 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: and again, especially it happened a little while ago with 556 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: the gentleman who I know. I'd been following me in 557 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: and tried to connect, and every now and again, if 558 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,239 Speaker 1: I had a moment, i'd like something he said. So 559 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: I knew, you know, he wasn't a bad person, and 560 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: he was committed to news and all of that. But 561 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: he made some sort of random comment and the abortion 562 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: debate was happening in New South Wales. I'm trying to 563 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: remember the exact sequence of events, and I'll get it wrong, 564 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: but the point is he said something where he made 565 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: an assumption about why I was childless, and I just decided, 566 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: you don't deserve to be blocked because I know you 567 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: don't really realize what you said and how that's going 568 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: to be interpreted. But I responded quite bluntly and said, 569 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: you actually don't have a clue about my choices and 570 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: why I made them, or if I made them not 571 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: up to you, and I don't have to share. You 572 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: might want to think about that. But everyone else gave 573 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: him mary Hill on my behalf, which A was sweet, 574 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: but B then they started trolling him, and so then 575 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: I punctured the conversation and said hey, and he reached 576 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: out to me privately, and I said, I know you 577 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: didn't mean what you said, so I said, I'll respond 578 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: publicly and go you know, And he apologized kind of publicly, 579 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: so I made sure that everyone could see he didn't 580 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:09,479 Speaker 1: realize what he said in the way he said it, 581 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: and that that's not what he meant. And if he 582 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: crossed the line, he learned from the experience it's not 583 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: a bad human being. It guess what we want mistakes, 584 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,479 Speaker 1: So you know, I pick and choose my battles. I 585 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: don't take too much home with me, and I learned 586 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: early on in this game you can't please everyone. I 587 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: have a responsibility, I think, particularly to other women, to 588 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: make sure not so much trolls, but people who you know, 589 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: cross those lines get dealt with pretty appropriately. 590 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 2: I want to ask you about interviewing, because obviously where 591 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: we met was at a conference where one of the 592 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 2: interviews you did was with Julie Bishop, which was such 593 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 2: an enjoyable. 594 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: Brilliant interview. It was a hard one to do, actually, I. 595 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,959 Speaker 2: Want to ask you about that. So what goes into 596 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: preparing for an interview like that. 597 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: Well, lots. You can't turn up and not have done 598 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: you knowing it, yeah, yeah, But then I think the 599 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: hardest thing is getting the context right because you can't 600 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: really You've got a sense of who the audience are, 601 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: but you can't always be absolutely certain. You can't always 602 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: be absolutely certain what it is they want from the experience, 603 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: So is a lot of mind games that go on. 604 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: You've also got to be aware of, you know, their 605 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: most current and up to date information, who they are, 606 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: what they've said, what makes sense from a news perspective 607 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: about what they're doing. So clearly, for Julie Bishop, it 608 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: was about resigning, stepping down the criticism she'd received about 609 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: some of the choices she'd made in her professional space. 610 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: She'd just been appointed chancellor of a and you, but 611 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: also there was a lot of conjecture about her role 612 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: as a senior woman for other women and what she'd 613 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: done for other women in that space. Some people really 614 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: want you to focus on the personal, but it has 615 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: to be a personal conversation and somehow you've got to 616 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: know how to navigate the boundaries you can't see. So 617 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: what you generally do is have a meet and greet beforehand, 618 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: and my go to space will be this isn't a 619 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: gotcha moment because it wasn't about that. I mean, if 620 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: it was a television moment for news, I don't owe 621 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: them a pre conversation. It's no holds barred. It is 622 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: about the story of the day. They're not turning up 623 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: if they don't want to talk about it. But this 624 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: was a women's conference and I wasn't there to go soft. 625 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: But at the same time, I wanted it to be 626 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: interesting and I didn't want her to not want to 627 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: give so I think where I found what I thought 628 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: would be an interesting extraction or a direction to take 629 00:32:55,560 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: her on was why she reluctantly challenged and that, in 630 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: my view, she hadn't really done the numbers. Otherwise she 631 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: answered that really by saying she hadn't really done the numbers, 632 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: but she had to do it. She believed on behalf 633 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: of other women or not. I don't know, but I 634 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: wanted to ask that question to let other people judge intonation, 635 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: body language, conviction. I wasn't sure what I made of it, 636 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: but I wanted to hear what she had to say. 637 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to ask in the pre interview chat. 638 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 2: I imagine one of the key things there is building 639 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 2: that report with your subject. 640 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 3: How are you doing that. 641 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: Well, it's look, you don't always get the chance for 642 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: a pre chat, so again you've got to be mindful 643 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: of the audience. I mean, this was a women in 644 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: business audience and they were really interested to meet and 645 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: see Julie Bishop speak. She'd just come out of office 646 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: and I think most Australians were pretty proud of her 647 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: as our foreign minister, really proud, and I wanted to 648 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: acknowledge that. So I wanted to congratulate, you know. The 649 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: first thing I'd do was say hello and acknowledge that 650 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,720 Speaker 1: we'd met each other before, never spent much time together. 651 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: She said, look, what areas are you considering on, you know, 652 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: having a chat with me about And I talked hers 653 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 1: through those and I said, are there any no go 654 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: zones from your perspective? I said, because I can't think 655 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: of any, you know, And she didn't provide any, which 656 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: was terrific. I also, I'm not someone I'll have a 657 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 1: list of questions, but I never remember them. 658 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 2: I was going to ask you, like, during the actual interview, 659 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 2: do you have a map of where you want to go? 660 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 3: What's kind of going through your head? 661 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: Well, I'm very torn in this space because some of 662 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: the best interviewers will always say you never ask a 663 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: question if you don't know what the answer is going 664 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:50,760 Speaker 1: to be, and I think that's a good rule of thumb. 665 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: Many people say that you should have a map of 666 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: where you want it to go, but how can you 667 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: possibly know when you can't control the person interviewing. So 668 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: I will write down scores of questions that give me 669 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: areas to deviate into if they take me there. But 670 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 1: I really rely on the rapport and where I feel 671 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: like it makes sense to deviate too, or pivot to, 672 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,760 Speaker 1: or continue down a certain path. It's really more about 673 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: gut than anything else. I mean, it's all reliant on homework, 674 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: but the actual engagement is about gut and rapport for me. 675 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: And maybe that's where I go wrong. I don't know. 676 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 3: I think that's really interesting in your head, like are you? 677 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 2: Because something I struggle with when I'm interviewing people is 678 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 2: trying to stay present so that I can actually listen 679 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 2: to what's being said. But at the same time, another 680 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 2: track of my brain is going I've got all these 681 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 2: areas that I'm interested in, which one makes sense to 682 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 2: place next? If we if this bit is coming to 683 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 2: a natural end, So like what's going on in your 684 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 2: head when you're like during that Lea Bishop interview, Well, 685 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 2: I have. 686 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: Those bullet points really about must discuss areas. You know, 687 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: you've got to touch on a couple of key things 688 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: when you're talking to people. Like if we did an 689 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: interview and you didn't ever mention my job in television, 690 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: people will go hello, yeah, you know, so you got 691 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: your touch points that you that you must cover. I 692 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: think before you approach any interview, it is wise to 693 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: find some perspective, take some time out. Yes, you do 694 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: your homework, which is really like a study phase that's 695 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 1: you know, kind of where you where you smash it 696 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: and cram, and then you need to go for a 697 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: walk or go for a run or switch off. So 698 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: you get some perspective from what someone else may want 699 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: to see or glean from that experience or that conversation. 700 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: So you find some tangents that are comfortable or unique 701 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: or make sense to the context within which you're talking. 702 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: Someone does that. 703 00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 3: Make it makes perfect sense? 704 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 2: And I feel like that is something that I can 705 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 2: learn from when I'm doing interviews. 706 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: I like that a lot. Yeah, I mean you do 707 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: interviews a lot, but I think and I love your podcast. 708 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan. I tell I do a bit 709 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: of mentoring with the executive assistance, and I will say 710 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 1: to them that it's a really good one because they 711 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,919 Speaker 1: need to understand where their CEO's heads are, because they're 712 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,359 Speaker 1: already in the next phase of business and you need 713 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: to understand where their heads are and have a sense 714 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: of what the roadmap looks like. And so I'm always 715 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,280 Speaker 1: recommending podcasts where they can grow as an individual, grow 716 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: as an EA, and also be a good help for 717 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:46,240 Speaker 1: their boss. Every good interview, I think is about discovering something. 718 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: I think it's all about the art of discovery, and 719 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,280 Speaker 1: I think if you try to find something someone else 720 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 1: doesn't know or hasn't considered, then it makes your conversation 721 00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:58,800 Speaker 1: unique and special. 722 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 3: I love that it's so funny. 723 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 2: It reminds me of an It's just a blog post 724 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,760 Speaker 2: I was reading the other day, I think, by Derek Sivers, 725 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 2: and he said the best way to teach someone something 726 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 2: is to surprise them, because if they're surprised, it will stick, 727 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 2: and if they're not, it won't. And that reminds me 728 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 2: of that, and I feel like I think, I feel 729 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 2: like we're out of time. But that's probably a nice 730 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 2: a nice little note to end on It's Sandra Sully 731 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 2: because I feel like I have to say your name 732 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 2: in full. God, it's just been a pleasure chatting to you. 733 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being on the show. 734 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: It's been such a pleasure talking to you. I hope 735 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:32,720 Speaker 1: my questions haven't been too long and you're not required 736 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 1: to do too much editing, but thanks so much for 737 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: having me. 738 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 2: So that is it for today's show. I hope you 739 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 2: liked my chat with Sandra. If you did, why not 740 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 2: share it with someone else in your life who you 741 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 2: think would enjoy it. And if you're liking how I work, 742 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 2: I would love it if you leave a review. The 743 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 2: more reviews the show has, the easier it is for 744 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:51,399 Speaker 2: people to. 745 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 3: Find how I work. 746 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 2: And I personally read every single review, and my goodness, 747 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,839 Speaker 2: they just bring such a brig smile to my face. 748 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 2: So thank you to everyone that has taken the time. 749 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,840 Speaker 3: To do that is super lovely of you. So that 750 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 3: is it for today's show, and I'll see you next time.