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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: We learned yesterday there are more than four hundred additional

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Speaker 2: prisoners who've entered the correction system in the Northern Territory

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Speaker 2: since August last year. The Chief Minister joined us on

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Speaker 2: the show and made no apologies for the fact that

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Speaker 2: more people are being locked up. She says she wants

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Speaker 2: Territorians to be safe. The concern I guess at this

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Speaker 2: point though, is that those correctional facilities are bursting. At

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Speaker 2: the SAMs. We also learned that the Catherine Watchhouse is

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Speaker 2: now being used to how's prisoners now? The Corrections Minister

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Speaker 2: Jared Mayley had said yesterday that work continues at the

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Speaker 2: Berema Correctional Center, taking the total bed count to more

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Speaker 2: than one hundred and sixty beds since opening in December.

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Speaker 2: Now joining me on the show is the Corrections Commissioner

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Speaker 2: Matthew Varley. Good morning to your commissioner.

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Speaker 1: Gooday, Katie, good morning, Thanks so much.

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Speaker 2: For your time this morning. Now, Commissioner, four hundred additional

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Speaker 2: prisoners would no doubt be putting a lot of strain

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Speaker 2: on the system. How are things going?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, look that's right and pretty much I can

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Speaker 1: tell you listeners that that's all we're working on, to

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Speaker 1: be honest, you know, we're just working through day by day,

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Speaker 1: trying to make the system grow and work and adapt.

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Speaker 1: Today where if you count what is in the cat

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Speaker 1: and Watchhouse and a couple other places, where just a

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Speaker 1: nudge under two thousand and seven hundred prisoners in the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory that are on either romand or sentenced. That

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Speaker 1: number obviously fluctuates daily, but it has grown significantly over

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Speaker 1: the last few months, and our job is to work

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Speaker 1: hard to adapt to that. It has put enormous pressure

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Speaker 1: on our agency and our system, but we're just trying

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Speaker 1: to do the best we can.

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Speaker 2: Commissioner, can you talk me through those numbers? How many

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Speaker 2: are on remand.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're over fifty percent of Romande is now really

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Speaker 1: Katie in the overall population, So my numbers today would

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Speaker 1: be a bit over thirteen hundred, which is where the

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Speaker 1: significant growth has been. Of course, as those matters have

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Speaker 1: brought before the court and they have to go through

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Speaker 1: the legal process, so we're probably well, I can tell

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Speaker 1: you at Darwin and Alice Springs prisons, Halts and Olic Springs,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're well over fifty two to fifty three

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Speaker 1: percent of the Romand population now, which is a significant shift,

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Speaker 1: and it brings with it challenges around how we manage

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Speaker 1: those prisoners because they are all subject to you know,

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Speaker 1: assessments and security checks and behavioral management. So it's not

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Speaker 1: as easy as managing sentenced prisoners. They're different, and obviously

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Speaker 1: sentenced prisoners come with a degree of certainty around how

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Speaker 1: long they're with us for, so that changes the way

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Speaker 1: our system runs every day, and of course it also

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Speaker 1: adds to the operational pressures inside those prisons every day

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Speaker 1: because we have to get people to court, we have

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Speaker 1: to get people to video links, and their lawyers want

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Speaker 1: to see them as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've no doubt that the fact that such a

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Speaker 2: large number are on REMAND would also be causing stress because,

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Speaker 2: as you've just touched on, there's different requirements or different

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Speaker 2: things that you need to be worried about when you

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Speaker 2: talk about the prisoners that are on REMAND.

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Speaker 1: Well, obviously, Katie, safety and security is first and foremost,

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Speaker 1: and you know, every prisoner has to be safe, secure

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Speaker 1: and our primary role is managing that, along with of

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Speaker 1: course the safety and security of our own staff in

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Speaker 1: the prison, which is where you know, the challenges at

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Speaker 1: the moment. But you know, if you look at Darwin

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Speaker 1: Correctional Center at fourteen hundred and forty prisoners, if I

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Speaker 1: can be so frank, that makes it one of the

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Speaker 1: largest prisons in Australia. And as we've spoken about before,

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Speaker 1: the complexity of we've got a house, we've got a feed,

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Speaker 1: we've got a launder, we've got a hygiene, we've got

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Speaker 1: a medical, we've got to you know, manage the needs

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Speaker 1: of those fourteen hundred people in a secure environment. That

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Speaker 1: makes it quite a large logistical exercise. Now the same

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Speaker 1: in Alice Springs. Since we last spoke Katie, we've lifted

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Speaker 1: the population in Alice Springs through you know, work locally

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Speaker 1: to get that up to seven hundred and thirty prisoners.

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Speaker 1: So we've gone inside Alice Springs from six fifty to

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Speaker 1: seven point thirty and of course new blocks are going

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Speaker 1: to come online soon down there which will lift that

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Speaker 1: population higher. Now against the backdrop of all of that,

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Speaker 1: and the Bremer Correctional Center, as you mentioned, has come

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Speaker 1: online since Christmas, and I think we need to remember

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Speaker 1: what an achievement that has been by our teams. You know,

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Speaker 1: we've essentially turned that old youth detention center into a

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Speaker 1: new operating prison and we've got one hundred and twelve

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Speaker 1: prisoners in there today, Katie. That's an enormous achievement. Our

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Speaker 1: team have, you know, absolutely busting themselves around the clock

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Speaker 1: and right through the Christmas period to make that work.

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Speaker 1: So you know, there's a lot of pressure, but our

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Speaker 1: team have stepped up to the challenge.

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Speaker 2: Commissioner, what about the youth detention facility? How ful is

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Speaker 2: it at the moment?

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Speaker 1: From memory, Katie, I think we've got about forty in

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Speaker 1: Holts and another dozen or so in Alice Springs. We've

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Speaker 1: been commencing and working through the transfer of youth from

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Speaker 1: Alice Springs up to Darlin, which is why you're seeing

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Speaker 1: that grow in Holts, and our team are also working

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Speaker 1: to settle in and operationalize that new facility out at Holts,

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Speaker 1: which as you remember, has had its challenges, but the

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Speaker 1: team again working hard to do their best. We still

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Speaker 1: continue to see young people reminded in Alice Springs, which

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Speaker 1: is why that number we're juggling that every day, and

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Speaker 1: of course young people who are apprehended in Alice Springs

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Speaker 1: we still need to take those into custody. But the

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Speaker 1: work on converting the paperbark facility down the road to

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Speaker 1: our new youth center has commenced and that'll continue through

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Speaker 1: the next couple of months.

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Speaker 2: Now, in terms of how you're managing these huge numbers,

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Speaker 2: have we got a situation where there are up to

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Speaker 2: sixteen people in cells? And can you give our listeners

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Speaker 2: a bit of context when it comes to the number

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Speaker 2: of people in cells and how you manage that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, there's been a bit of commentary Katie about

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Speaker 1: different numbers in different cells, and that's not a new thing.

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Speaker 1: So yes, the short answer is, we do have cells

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Speaker 1: and dormantes, both in the watchhouses and in Alice Springs

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Speaker 1: and Darwin for that matter, with large numbers of people

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Speaker 1: in them. You know, we've got dormitories that have sixteen

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Speaker 1: prisoners in them in prisons, but we also have watchhouses

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Speaker 1: that have large numbers of people with mattresses on the floor. Now,

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Speaker 1: that's not a desirable situation, of course, and I've always

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Speaker 1: said I don't want to be in watchhouse and I

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Speaker 1: don't want to be in watchouses any more than I

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Speaker 1: need to be. But it's a necessity at the moment.

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Speaker 1: You know, you can't just simply manage the prison population

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Speaker 1: growth just by jamming more people into the existing infrastructure,

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Speaker 1: because we'll end up with a problem. So that's why

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Speaker 1: we're in watchhouses. We understand that that's a critical risk

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Speaker 1: for us and for you know, the operations of those

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Speaker 1: watch houses. But our staff are doing the best they

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Speaker 1: can to make it work. And you know, we need

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Speaker 1: to remember that watchhouses aren't designed for long term holes.

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Speaker 1: We get that, but we are still there managing their

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Speaker 1: daily needs. We provide three meals a day. You know,

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Speaker 1: they've all got betting, they've all got laundry, they've all

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Speaker 1: got clothing, and we're admitting them into the main centers

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Speaker 1: as space has become available.

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Speaker 2: So in Catherine, that Catherine Watchhouse is now being utilized

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Speaker 2: by corrections as well, isn't it. But do you have

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Speaker 2: staff there?

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Speaker 1: No, And the short answer is the Catherine situation has

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Speaker 1: been a relatively new problem over the last couple of weeks.

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Speaker 1: Now we know that police were engaging in their significant,

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Speaker 1: high profile activity down in Catherine, that's their job, and

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Speaker 1: as a result has been a round up of people

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Speaker 1: on ramand down in Catherine. Now we've worked hard over

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Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks to try and distill some

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Speaker 1: of those prisoners up to Palmerston and then into holts

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Speaker 1: where we can. But you've also got the competing pressures

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Speaker 1: of continued inflows in the Darwin metro area. So Catherine

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Speaker 1: at the moment is a bit of a staging spot.

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Speaker 1: We know that that's the number one concern of police

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Speaker 1: at the moment, and we're working hard on that. We

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Speaker 1: aren't able to provide correction staff and then we don't

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Speaker 1: have a footprint in Catherine, and to be quite frank,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm absolutely stretched with our offices across Darwin

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Speaker 1: providing coverage to the sites we do have, so we're

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Speaker 1: grateful that the police are helping us out in that front.

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Speaker 1: It's a problem that the Commissioner and I are talking

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Speaker 1: about pretty much every day, and I've given him a

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Speaker 1: commitment that will distill prisoners from Catherine as quickly as

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Speaker 1: we possibly can. But it's a checker game, you o, Katie,

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Speaker 1: with pieces of the puzzle moving all over the place.

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Speaker 2: Commissioner. There's been claims that prisoners in watchhouses don't have

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Speaker 2: adequate drinking water. The ABC reckons that they only have

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Speaker 2: bubblers attached to toilets. Is that the case.

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Speaker 1: Look, I was asked that question yesterday and short answer

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Speaker 1: is no. We provide food and water, and there are

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Speaker 1: stainless steel prison toilets in both prisons and watchhouses that

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Speaker 1: are a single unit, Katie. Now, if you google these

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Speaker 1: you'll see them online. There's lots of different manufacturers that

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Speaker 1: produce is you know, all around the country. It's a

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Speaker 1: it's a toilet with a handbasin and a bubbler. It's

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Speaker 1: a stainless steel prison unit. It's installed in watchhouses and cells.

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Speaker 1: It's not new. But I was in the watch houses.

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Speaker 1: I've been in the watchouses a bit really and and

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Speaker 1: you know, we're providing food. We provide meals, we provide

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Speaker 1: cups of tea, you know we I don't really think

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Speaker 1: there's a concern there, to be honest with you. There

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Speaker 1: was a claim that one of the blood bubblers was blocked.

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Speaker 1: If it was, we've probably fixed it. I think it's

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Speaker 1: a bit of a non issue, to be honest.

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Speaker 2: So I mean, what do you make of the claims

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Speaker 2: of people saying that it's you know, that it's a

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Speaker 2: human rights issue and that there you know, there should

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Speaker 2: be a situation where they've they've got more adequate water.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess the first thing I'd say, they've got

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Speaker 1: adequate water. But people are you know, there's people's jobs

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Speaker 1: to hold me to account and what we do. But

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I'm running the best

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Speaker 1: prison system we possibly can with an increase in numbers

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Speaker 1: that would stretch any jurisdiction. Our job is to make

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Speaker 1: sure we're doing what we can with what we've got.

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Speaker 1: People will criticize at the end of the day, I

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Speaker 1: just can't focus on that. I've got to get on

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Speaker 1: with the job of making sure these prisoners and my

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Speaker 1: staff are safe and secure.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about those stuff. How are they coping

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Speaker 2: at the moment, because by the sounds of things, you know,

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Speaker 2: it is, like you said, it's like a moving puzzle

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Speaker 2: that you're trying to you know, you're trying to juggle everything.

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Speaker 2: How are the staffing numbers going and how are they coping?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, look, our staff. Look, I'm really proud of our

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Speaker 1: staff and what they're doing every day. They're hard working,

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Speaker 1: they're doing the best they can in what are really

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Speaker 1: tough circumstances and often operating behind the scenes in terms

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Speaker 1: of you know, making the prison system work seven days

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Speaker 1: a week now. Of course, we're short, and I've always

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Speaker 1: been pretty plain about that. We're continuing to recruit. There's

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Speaker 1: forty officers in training at the moment. We're continuing the

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Speaker 1: work on how we redistribute workforce around the system. Our

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Speaker 1: officers are working over time. They're stressed, you know, they

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Speaker 1: asked me lots of hard questions. And I was talking

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Speaker 1: with the United Workers' Union secretary just last night and

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Speaker 1: I'll be meeting with them again today at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day. Though, our job is to solve problems.

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Speaker 1: Our staff are helping us solve those problems. But we'll

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Speaker 1: continue to move the chess pieces around as best we can.

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Speaker 1: The unfortunate part of this whole scenario is we don't

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Speaker 1: get to decide how many people come to prison, so

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Speaker 1: our staff are just turning up and making it work.

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Speaker 2: The Chief Minister had told us that one of the

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Speaker 2: largest ever intakes of recruits have started their training to

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Speaker 2: become corrections officers. How big an impact or how positive

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Speaker 2: I guess is that going to be what they're able

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Speaker 2: to get cracking and get into the job.

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Speaker 1: Well, look, you know, it's a big positive for us.

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Speaker 1: We've got thirty one new officers that commenced on Monday,

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Speaker 1: I think what might have been Tuesday with the public holiday,

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Speaker 1: and then we've got another I think eleven experienced officers

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Speaker 1: currently in training. We've got more experienced officer courses coming

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Speaker 1: into play in the next couple of weeks and in

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Speaker 1: through February and March. I've always said, Katie, we need

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Speaker 1: more officers. We're going to continue to recruit, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we've got the challenges there of a growing system as well.

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Speaker 1: I guess the point i'd make in you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to sugarcoat this, but as we recruit, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're continuing to grow the agency as well. So the

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Speaker 1: headwinds are against us. But I'm really happy that we've

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Speaker 1: got thirty one new officers in training as of Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: and they've got an eleven week course ahead of them

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Speaker 1: before they're out on the roster, probably by about Easter.

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Speaker 2: Now, Commissioner, before I let you go, the ABC again

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Speaker 2: reporting this morning that an independent politicians raised human rights

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Speaker 2: concerns with the United Nations over what they've described as

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Speaker 2: terrible jail conditions in the Northern Territory. My understanding is

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Speaker 2: that Yinya Guyoula has indeed written to the United Nations

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Speaker 2: Special Rapperteur on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples to visit

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Speaker 2: the Northern Territory's asking him asking them to come to

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Speaker 2: the Northern Territory and have a look at the jails.

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Speaker 2: I mean, would you welcome.

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Speaker 1: That well, yes, of course, and we welcome all the

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Speaker 1: oversight that we're subject to. This is not new for us.

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Speaker 1: We have oversight by the Ombudsmen, we have oversight by

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Speaker 1: the courts and the legal fraternity. You know, we have

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Speaker 1: an inspection by the Ombudsman pretty regularly. We have an

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Speaker 1: official visitors program where independent people come into the prisons,

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Speaker 1: have a look around and provide reports to our Minister

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day. That is not new

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Speaker 1: for us. But should other people want to come and

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Speaker 1: ask me hard questions, then my job is to answer them.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I'm just going to keep going and

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Speaker 1: doing the best I can for territoriums Well.

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Speaker 2: Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley, we always appreciate your time. I

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Speaker 2: know you're incredibly busy at the moment. We appreciate the

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Speaker 2: work of the correction staff as well. I know it

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Speaker 2: cannot be an easy job, particularly at this point in

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Speaker 2: time when you've got four hundred extra prisoners than what

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Speaker 2: you had in August last year. So thank you very

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Speaker 2: much for having a chat with us today.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Katie, and thanks to our staff out there. It's

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Speaker 1: not just the uniform staff as well. It's our clinicians,

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Speaker 1: our probation and prole officers, our youth justice workers. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who make this system work every

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Speaker 1: day and they're doing the best they can for the territory.

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Speaker 2: Matthew Varley, thanks so much for having a chat this morning.

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Speaker 1: All the best, Katie thinks.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.