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Speaker 1: Now, as we've been speaking about over the last couple

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Speaker 1: of days, eligible territory ands over eighteen are going to

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Speaker 1: be able to buy OC spray from September for self

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Speaker 1: defense as part of a twelvemonth trial. The Chief Minister

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Speaker 1: sees the Northern Territory is going to look to replicate

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Speaker 1: the approach in WA. The only other jurisdiction where OC

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Speaker 1: spray is lawful now joining us on the line for

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Speaker 1: their take on the announcement is the Union for Retail Workers,

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Speaker 1: the Shop Distributive and Allied Employees Association NT Secretary Josh Peek.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Josh, Good morning, Katie. Thank you for having

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Speaker 2: me on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, good to have you on the show. Now, Josh,

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Speaker 1: I know, well, obviously we have got a lot of

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Speaker 1: retail workers, a lot of those workers across the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 1: What's the reaction been to this OC spray announcement of

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Speaker 1: a trial.

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Speaker 2: Well, of course, and we've spoken about this many times, Katie,

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Speaker 2: we absolutely welcome any measures that will make workplaces say

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Speaker 2: for and be strong deterrence against, particularly those people that

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Speaker 2: come into our retail spaces and seek to cause cause harm.

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Speaker 2: So I think on the basis that it's a trial

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Speaker 2: is something that we cautiously welcome. I just do want

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Speaker 2: to flag though, there are a number of situations in

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Speaker 2: a retail setting that we are sort of watching this

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Speaker 2: and reasonably cautious about. And that is, you know, when

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Speaker 2: we are talking about enclosed spaces, what is the consequence

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Speaker 2: of you know, the spray being used on bystanders, particularly

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Speaker 2: and particularly for customers to use it against another customers

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Speaker 2: for example, you know, and potentially a retail worker be

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Speaker 2: impacted by that by that O spree oc spray, which

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Speaker 2: can happen, which which can happen in course to the

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Speaker 2: side effects we're concerned about. We also know that particularly

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Speaker 2: in a in a food setting where there is food around,

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Speaker 2: there is a whole bunch of dangers with the use

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Speaker 2: of the spray in those enclosed settings. And so when

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Speaker 2: the sprays, let us say, for example, in a supermarket,

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Speaker 2: whether it's good reason or not good good good reason,

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Speaker 2: there can be a huge set of consequences on the

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Speaker 2: consumable of the foods that are being sold there there thereafter.

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Speaker 2: So you know, as with all of these things, it's

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Speaker 2: not straightforward when it comes to retail stores fundamentally though,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I just to go back to the first

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Speaker 2: and I think core principle, which is should people have

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Speaker 2: the right to self defense and to keep themselves safe? Absolutely,

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Speaker 2: we support people having more ability to do that. This

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Speaker 2: I think is an appropriate trial, but I just think

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Speaker 2: we also need to be conscious from a retail point

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Speaker 2: of view what that actually looks like, particularly when there's workers.

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Speaker 1: Buy yes, Josh, I know other customers. I know there's

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Speaker 1: been quite a bit of a discussion about this on

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Speaker 1: a national stage, following on from the absolute tragedy that

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Speaker 1: we saw in Bondi with the attacks that had happened there,

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Speaker 1: and there had been some calls for this to be

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Speaker 1: implemented across the board. We also know in Western Australia

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Speaker 1: is something that is legal in w A. I know

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Speaker 1: obviously you're the you are the secretary for the Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory in South Australia as I understand, But has there

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Speaker 1: been much discussion I guess, you know, with like with

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Speaker 1: with you guys or with the body and having a

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Speaker 1: chat to w A or anywhere else in terms of

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Speaker 1: whether it sort of works for them.

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Speaker 2: Well, we've got lots of discussions on this issue and

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Speaker 2: we're particularly engaging with the retailers on as well, and

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Speaker 2: it's been something that generally speaking, many retailers particularly, and

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Speaker 2: again we've got to look look at this in sort

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Speaker 2: of a tear down approach. Firstly, I think from the

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Speaker 2: union's perspective, generally speaking, we would be pretty supportive of

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Speaker 2: it being used by trained security per personnel quite appropriately,

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Speaker 2: as long as there's appropriate training to ensure some of

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Speaker 2: the issues that I've just mentioned don't arise. So for

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Speaker 2: a trained security officers got it, you know they're going

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Speaker 2: to be trained to potentially only use it outdoors, or

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Speaker 2: use it away from customers or away from the other

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Speaker 2: consequences that without outline them. Now, there is a degree

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Speaker 2: of debate within with within the sector about this because

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Speaker 2: particularly some some retailers have the view that even if

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Speaker 2: you do conduct that kind of training with with with

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Speaker 2: security officers, you can't you know, if you have every

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Speaker 2: security officer holding one one of these, that will ultimately

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Speaker 2: lead to some of those unintended consequences. In w A,

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Speaker 2: we haven't potentially the trial hasn't run long enough yet,

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Speaker 2: so I'm not sure whether we've got data yet that

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Speaker 2: says how many you know, members of the public, for example,

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Speaker 2: have taken up the ability to carry around caps display

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Speaker 2: with them. So you know, I get I think, I

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Speaker 2: think in many ways we yet to see what that

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Speaker 2: what that really, what that looks like. I'm not aware

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Speaker 2: at this stage of some of those un and in consequences.

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Speaker 2: And that's the kind of sort of why the Hunan's

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Speaker 2: position is, We're okay for a trial, but we really

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Speaker 2: do need to be mindful of about the fact that we

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Speaker 2: absolutely understand that you know, there may be you know,

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Speaker 2: people that want to have this on them for their

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Speaker 2: own personal safety. We need to be clear about, you know,

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Speaker 2: about that if they are used particularly on other people

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Speaker 2: or in a retail environment and can in fact be dangerous,

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Speaker 2: and so we just need to monitor that to make

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Speaker 2: sure that we're not seeing those consequences. And where there

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Speaker 2: is particularly really strong quality point of sale information provided

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Speaker 2: to consumers, you know, it does need to be explained

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Speaker 2: to people when they do purchase these things that they

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Speaker 2: really shouldn't be using them around other people who so

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Speaker 2: intended on being used as perfectively, and that they probably

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Speaker 2: shouldn't be used in enclosed spaces, that if they are

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Speaker 2: used near food or other sort of items, that effectively

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Speaker 2: they all need to be destroid or heavily sanitized. So

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Speaker 2: there are a whole range of things that flow on

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Speaker 2: on from this. That's not to say that we're opposed

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Speaker 2: to it.

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Speaker 1: No, Hey, before I let you go, do you know

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Speaker 1: where things are at with security guards on bottle shops

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Speaker 1: being equipped with OC spray? That is something that you

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Speaker 1: know that we've been told would be rolled out under

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Speaker 1: the previous labor government. Do you know if there's been

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Speaker 1: sort of any update in that space.

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Speaker 2: I haven't got an update on that, and certainly something

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Speaker 2: that I said for we strong we strongly support if

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Speaker 2: people are trained on using these and they know how

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Speaker 2: to use them properly. We think they're an excellent safeguard that,

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Speaker 2: particularly when security personnel use them, can certainly make those

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Speaker 2: workplaces safer. And I would be keen for an update.

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Speaker 1: As well well. Josh. It is always good to catch

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Speaker 1: up with you, mate. Really appreciate your having a chat

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Speaker 1: with us this morning.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Katie, Thank you