1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: As the founder of the hugely popular blog zen Habits, 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: Leo berbort has built a reputation for seeking simplicity in 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: work and in life, so it might be surprising to 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: hear that he often looks to the tech world for inspiration. 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: After looking into the agile software development process, Leo realized 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: he didn't need to hide his creative work from the 7 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: world until it was completely finished. Watching tech companies release 8 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: software while it was still in development and then constantly 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: updating it live, Leo decided to apply the same strategy 10 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 1: to his writing. My name is doctor amanthe Immer. I'm 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 12 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: and this is how I work a show about how 13 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. On today's My 14 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: Favorite Tip episode, we go back to an interview from 15 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: the past and I pick out my favorite tip from 16 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: the interview. In today's show, I speak with Leo Berborta, 17 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: and this chat starts with me asking Leo about his 18 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: iterative approach to writing. 19 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 2: I'm not saying I'm the only one in the world, 20 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 2: but I did draw inspiration when I started learning more 21 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: than a decade ago about that like agile software development. 22 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 2: And I think I might be one of the few 23 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 2: people who started doing this at the time, and maybe 24 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 2: now there's more. But it's really interesting because when I 25 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 2: was reading about software development, you know, there's an old model, 26 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 2: Microsoft's model when they were developing, you know, in the nineties, 27 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 2: developing the next version of Windows. They would spend a 28 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 2: couple of years working on the software in kind of isolation, 29 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 2: and then they would put it out into the world, 30 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 2: fully developed, launched, and then people would try it, and 31 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 2: you know, inevitably a bunch of people would be like, 32 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: this sucks, this isn't what I need, Like I'd get 33 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 2: all this backlash because it wasn't what people really needed 34 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: in the world. And so people developing software came up 35 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 2: with an idea of what if we put something out 36 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 2: immediately to test out, get feedback on, and then use 37 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: that information to develop live. As we continue to develop, 38 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: we're continually putting it out there, getting feedback and getting 39 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: that cycle of putting it out and getting feedback and learning. 40 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 2: And I love that model, and I was like, how 41 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 2: could I use that in my own life? So I 42 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 2: started applying it to everything that I was doing, from 43 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 2: meditation to learning to productivity, and then I was like, oh, 44 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: what if I used it for writing? So what I 45 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 2: would do is I would test out ideas. Blog posts 46 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 2: would actually be the first iteration, so I'd be like, okay, 47 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 2: I want to write about you know. At one point 48 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 2: it was like haiku productivity, like really constraining myself to 49 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: be more effective like haiku writers do. And so I 50 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: wrote a blog post about it and it like resonated 51 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 2: with people. So by putting something that was really easy 52 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 2: for me to write out into the world, I could 53 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 2: see if there was any kind of resonance with it, 54 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 2: or if people had some you know, you know feedback 55 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: that was negative, or maybe they just didn't care about it. 56 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 2: So blog posts were ways for me to test that out, 57 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 2: and then I would take their feedback and then I 58 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: would develop something even more from that. So maybe a 59 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 2: series of posts, maybe it was a mini ebook that 60 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 2: I would give to, you know, a couple dozen people, 61 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: and then I would develop a book from that. And 62 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 2: then I came up with the idea of developing the 63 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: book live with people. And so what I did was 64 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 2: I would get a group of people, maybe twenty people, 65 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 2: and they would sign up as my like beta testers 66 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: for my book, and so I would write stuff for 67 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 2: them and then let them test out in their lives 68 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: and actually put into action so they had some action 69 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 2: steps to take after reading it, and then they would 70 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: tell me, like how it went. They would give me 71 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 2: the feedback, and I would take that information and use 72 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 2: it to write the next chapter in the next chapter, 73 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 2: and then I would take all the information as they 74 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 2: were going through it to write the next version of 75 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 2: all of those chapters. And so the book was constantly 76 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 2: evolving as people were giving me feedback, as they were like, oh, 77 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 2: this is something that was amazing that I really loved, 78 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: or like I would hear nothing about it and maybe 79 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 2: that was a sign, and I would ask them questions. 80 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: I would have them fill out form like surveys and 81 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 2: things like that, and I would also have some real 82 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 2: world results that I could speak to when I actually 83 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: put the book out into a larger group and say, hey, 84 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: these twenty people used this book and they got these results, 85 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 2: and so that might enroll people to like, Okay, I 86 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: want to try this out and really get going and 87 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: really put themselves into it because they've seen that there 88 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: are proven results. Or if I was getting some feedback 89 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 2: that people didn't really care or didn't weren't really into it. 90 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 2: I would drop the whole book project once in a while, 91 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 2: so this way when the book finally came out. A 92 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: lot of writers will write a book in isolation for 93 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: a year or two and then they put it out 94 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: and they're like, I hope people actually like this. I 95 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 2: already knew if people would want to read this and 96 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 2: would actually put into action, and if where the stumbling 97 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 2: blocks were and what they actually resonated with, because I've 98 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: been testing it as I wrote. And one of the 99 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: coolest experiments that I did just to finish this part 100 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 2: out is I would write live in public, so I 101 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: would you know. One day, I decided to write a 102 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 2: really short ebook, and I put a Google doc with 103 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 2: the title of the ebook, and then I shared that 104 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 2: doc publicly on Twitter, and I said, come watch me 105 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 2: write this book and give me comments as I write it. 106 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 2: So I let people give me comments as I was 107 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 2: writing the chapter, so it was like I was writing 108 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: in public, live on stage or something like that. They 109 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 2: couldn't see me personally, but they could see the writing. 110 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: And that was one of the most fun like juiciest, 111 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 2: most exciting writing experiments i'd ever done, because it was 112 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: like people were commenting live like this is so cool 113 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 2: or what about this, Leo? And so it was like 114 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 2: a really collaborative live thing where I had to be 115 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: really present in my writing and I couldn't just abandon 116 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 2: it and come back a month later because people were 117 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 2: there watching. So I actually wrote that book in like days, 118 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: and it was the most fun I'd ever have, and 119 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 2: I'd done several versions of that since then. 120 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this extract from my chat with Leo, 121 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 1: you might want to go back and listen to the 122 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: full interview and you can find a link to that 123 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: in the show notes. If you're looking for more tips 124 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: to improve the way that you work, I write a short, 125 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things that I've discovered 126 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 1: that helped me work better, ranging from software and gadgets 127 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: that I'm loving through to interesting research findings. You can 128 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: sign up for that at Howiwork dot co. That's how 129 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: I work dot co. Thank you for sharing part of 130 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: your day with me by listening to How I Work. 131 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: If you're keen for more tips on how to work better, 132 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: connect with me via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy 133 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: to find. Just search for Amantha Imba. How I Work 134 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: was recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery people, 135 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: part of the Koln Nation. I am so grateful for 136 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: being able to work and live on this beautiful land, 137 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,119 Speaker 1: and I want to pay my respects to elders, past, 138 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: present and emerging. How I Work is produced by Inventium 139 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: with production support from Dead Set Studios, and thank you 140 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: to Martin Nimba who did the audio mix and makes 141 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: everything sound better than it would have otherwise.