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Speaker 1: I've been coming up with some amazing studies recently for

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Speaker 1: the Doctor's Desk episodes and today no different. What is

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Speaker 1: the relationship between a mother's screen time and children's developmental outcomes?

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Speaker 1: That is, if you're with the kids, you're on the phone,

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Speaker 1: you're on the screen, you're on the tablet, you're on

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Speaker 1: the whatever, and the kids are around, does it impact

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Speaker 1: them at all? Does it matter at all? Today? That's

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Speaker 1: what we're going to unpack. Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast,

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Speaker 1: Real parenting solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.

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Speaker 1: We are Justin and Kylie Coulson. Kylie, I'm so excited

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Speaker 1: to share this study with you. I think this is

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Speaker 1: an absolute dead set cracker.

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Speaker 2: I'm actually intrigued about this one because I don't.

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Speaker 1: Think I said it as excited to me as I should.

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Speaker 1: It's a dedit cracker. I'm really excited for this.

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Speaker 2: Well, I am intrigued by it because screens play such

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Speaker 2: a significant role in our lives. It's interesting to me

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Speaker 2: to think that our usage would have an impact on

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Speaker 2: our children's development. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So there is a term for it. It's called techno

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Speaker 1: ference and a number of studies over the years have

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Speaker 1: been looking at this idea of techno ference, what happens

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Speaker 1: when you're on the phone, when you're on the screen, laptop, tablet, whatever,

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Speaker 1: to the kids and their development. This was a study

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Speaker 1: that was conducted in Japan. It's been published in a

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Speaker 1: pretty high level journal. It's called Nature Scientific Reports. Nature

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Speaker 1: is one of the world's leading journals. It was published

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Speaker 1: on March twenty four of this year, so it's only

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Speaker 1: been out for a couple of months. Here it is

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Speaker 1: in a nutshell. You've got about just under four thousand

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Speaker 1: mother child pairs. Called it a diad mother child diads,

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Speaker 1: so nearly four thousand of them. The kids are two.

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Speaker 1: And what we've got is essentially mums are filling in

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Speaker 1: the question. They're saying how much screen usage they've been

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Speaker 1: racking up in the presence of their child? Okay, and

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Speaker 1: then the child is being assessed in three domains. We're

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Speaker 1: looking at fine and gross motorabilities. We're talking about cognitive capacity,

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Speaker 1: visual spatial comprehension, and also interpersonal relationships, their socialization and

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Speaker 1: verbal abilities. Okay, how much does mum being on a

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Speaker 1: screen in the presence of kiddo impact child development? In

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Speaker 1: those three areas, and there was a whole, very sophisticated

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Speaker 1: analysis going on here to make sure that we were measuring,

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Speaker 1: or the researchers are measuring exactly what they thought and

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Speaker 1: taking into account a whole lot of other things that

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Speaker 1: could impact so they could statistically control for it. Here's

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Speaker 1: basically what they found. Kids of mums who used digital

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Speaker 1: media for one hour or more in the presence of

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Speaker 1: their child, those kids had lower language and social development

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Speaker 1: outcomes compared with the kids whose mums did not use

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Speaker 1: digital media while they were with them. And for the

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Speaker 1: children of mothers who used digital media for two hours

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Speaker 1: or more, they showed a lower total development quotient compared

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Speaker 1: with those mums who didn't use digital media. In short,

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Speaker 1: the wrap up, the summary of this is that when

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Speaker 1: mums use digital media for more than an hour a

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Speaker 1: day with their children, it's negatively associated with language development

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Speaker 1: in their two year olds, and use for more than

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Speaker 1: two hours is negatively associated with global development. It has

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Speaker 1: a significant impact across the board in terms of all

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Speaker 1: developmental facets and aspects, at least that we'll look at

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Speaker 1: in this study.

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Speaker 2: So a handful of years ago, research was heavily focused

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Speaker 2: on children's screen time and especially in those young years,

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Speaker 2: and how that impacts their development. And now we find

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Speaker 2: ourselves here talking about mums specifically or parents in general

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Speaker 2: being on their screens in the presence of the children

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Speaker 2: and the impact it has. I'm curious to know how

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Speaker 2: the data compares well.

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Speaker 1: It all kind of shows the same thing, and there's

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Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting that question because of when we were

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Speaker 1: prepping before. I thought we were going in a different direction.

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Speaker 1: But there is a whole lot of data that shows

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Speaker 1: that there's a coral between mother's screen usage and children's

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Speaker 1: screen usage. So it seems that mums who use their

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Speaker 1: phones particularly or the devices particularly in the presence of

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Speaker 1: their children are much more likely to also give their

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Speaker 1: kids a device to use or allow them to use

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Speaker 1: the device as well. They're just less restrictive around device usage.

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Speaker 1: And there is a relationship between child use and developmental

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Speaker 1: outcomes generally, so when kids are using devices, when kids

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Speaker 1: are on screens, we see the same negative relationship. That is,

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Speaker 1: as device usage and screen usage goes up, developmental out

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Speaker 1: comes decrease, they become worse. So it works both ways.

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Speaker 1: When mums are on the devices or when kids are

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Speaker 1: on the devices, we get worse developmental outcomes for children.

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Speaker 2: So why is it that my screen usage while I'm

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Speaker 2: in the presence of my child has such a negative

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Speaker 2: impact on their developmental realities?

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Speaker 1: So I would say that it's not just for screen usage.

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Speaker 1: I'd say if you're preoccupied, because it affects your ability

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Speaker 1: to be responsive, effects your ability to pay attention, it

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Speaker 1: affects your ability to be warm and engaged with your

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Speaker 1: child and language and interactions like a tennis match. There's

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Speaker 1: that serve and return. The baby makes some sound and

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Speaker 1: then your eyes light up and you say, it sounds

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Speaker 1: like you just said puppy, Or your child tries to

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Speaker 1: engage with you, or wants to play a game, or

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Speaker 1: asks some food, and you engage in response. So that

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Speaker 1: serve return, which is what usually developmental psychologists are researching

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Speaker 1: and talking about. It's harmed, it's reduced, it's interfered with.

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Speaker 1: When we have got something else that's occupying this. Once

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Speaker 1: upon a time, if we're sitting there reading a book

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Speaker 1: or a magazine, it's just much easier to tear yourself

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Speaker 1: away from that than it is from a screen. The

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Speaker 1: screens are so darn good at keeping us completely connected

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Speaker 1: and completely focused on the screen. So fundamentally, what it

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Speaker 1: comes down to is parents are less There may be

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Speaker 1: more to it than this, but I think that the

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Speaker 1: real core of it his parents are less able to

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Speaker 1: engage with their kids, whether they know it or not,

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Speaker 1: because they're caught up in the screen.

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Speaker 2: This research, it sounds like it's specifically dealing with handheld devices,

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Speaker 2: but I am interested in understanding and knowing whether or

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Speaker 2: not having the TV on, say, for instance, in the background,

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Speaker 2: has the same kind of impact on our children's development.

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Speaker 2: I grew up in a home where the TV was

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Speaker 2: pretty much on all the time. There was always still

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Speaker 2: is it still is?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So how does that impact kiz okay?

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Speaker 1: So, first a quick clarification. In this particular study the

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Speaker 1: screen usage, they were just looking at digital media use,

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Speaker 1: so we're talking about laptops, tablets, and phones. It's not

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Speaker 1: phone only. To move on to the broader question of TV,

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Speaker 1: this study didn't look at television specifically. It was only

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Speaker 1: looking at those smart, handheld or mobile type of devices.

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Speaker 1: The research around TV is now decades old, although TV

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Speaker 1: is changing because it's becoming increasingly interactive, smart TVs and

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Speaker 1: so on my take on it is this, if you've

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Speaker 1: got the opportunity to turn it off, turn it off,

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Speaker 1: the background noise becomes a distraction. There's also the increased stimulation,

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Speaker 1: and so that can reduce children's capacity to pay attention

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Speaker 1: to one thing. There's no such thing as multitasking. All

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Speaker 1: we do is dilute their attention on things that matter,

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Speaker 1: like looking into your eyes or reading the book or

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Speaker 1: playing with the game. Fundamentally, as well, you'll find that

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Speaker 1: children who are sitting in front of a TV, or

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Speaker 1: if the TV is even on, you're going to get

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Speaker 1: less physical activity, sleep quality goes down, there's more noise,

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Speaker 1: and there's actually some really interesting research out there that

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Speaker 1: looks at just the impact of noise in the environment

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Speaker 1: and well being. And we're designed to be in quiet places,

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Speaker 1: so when there's always something going on, the brain's being stimulated,

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Speaker 1: but there's also a stress response. It's stressful to have

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Speaker 1: the screens going, it's stressful to have NonStop music, non

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Speaker 1: stop talk, NonStop chatter, NonStop background noise. All of that

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Speaker 1: adds up to create a level of stress in us

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Speaker 1: and our children. It amplifies what's going on in the

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Speaker 1: nervous system, so I would generally say keep it off. However, however,

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Speaker 1: I will say this, if you need to take a break,

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Speaker 1: whack the TV on. It's way better than giving them

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Speaker 1: an iPad or an iPhone or something like that. Why,

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Speaker 1: Because the TV has defined end points, you can turn

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Speaker 1: it off at the end of the episode. The TV

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Speaker 1: has narratives and storylines. We talked about this last week

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Speaker 1: on the podcast when we were talking about the Jonathan

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Speaker 1: Hate research. And the TV doesn't have the same stimulatory

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Speaker 1: impact that devices have when the kids are playing games.

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Speaker 1: There's just it's like a little mini casino for your

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Speaker 1: child's brain with all the excitatory stimulatory lottery sounding whizzes

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Speaker 1: and pops and bells and whistles and opportunities to win.

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Speaker 1: And this is not what's good for kids' brains. So

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Speaker 1: at least if they're watching an episode of Blue or

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Speaker 1: if they're watching something on ABC Kids, they get to relax,

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Speaker 1: developed some memphy, meld into a storyline. You don't want

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Speaker 1: too much of it, but it's better than it's better

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Speaker 1: than the alternative.

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Speaker 2: So I find this whole scenario quite intriguing because at

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Speaker 2: the heart of it, kids are copycats, right that's how

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Speaker 2: they learn. So they hear something and they repeat it often.

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Speaker 2: I think about in my childhood Sesame Street, play school.

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Speaker 2: They were the places where I learned my ABC's, I

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Speaker 2: learned how to count I before I was even at school. Right,

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Speaker 2: And we're having a conversation about the fact that our

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Speaker 2: children's development is delayed by being exposed to these things,

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Speaker 2: and I kind of just want to push back on

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Speaker 2: it a little bit, because, like I remember, I remember

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Speaker 2: when my youngest sister was only about three, she went

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Speaker 2: and was babysat by a friend, and she came home

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Speaker 2: and out of nowhere, at the dinner table, she let

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Speaker 2: the F bomb far out, far out, yes, and we

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Speaker 2: all were like, what the heck. Anyway, as it turned out,

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Speaker 2: the people who had baby sat her had the TV

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Speaker 2: on and it has worn, and literally she heard it

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Speaker 2: and it took my parents months to eradicate that from

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Speaker 2: her vocapu very. And so here's my thinking. It's like

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Speaker 2: kids hear things and they repeat them, which would actually,

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Speaker 2: in my mind help language development, but this study is

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Speaker 2: suggesting that it actually doesn't.

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Speaker 1: Not exactly the language development that you want. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: there are a couple of really easy things that I

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Speaker 1: can respond to here that are based in the very

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Speaker 1: best research evidence. First of all, children do repeat what

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Speaker 1: they hear. However, they are much more likely, especially when

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Speaker 1: they're young. They're much more likely to repeat what they're

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Speaker 1: hearing in a real person conversation rather than what's on

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Speaker 1: the screen. Even when they do repeat what's on this screen, though,

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Speaker 1: they don't necessarily have the context or the understanding of

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Speaker 1: the vocabulary, and that part of my system partly explains

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Speaker 1: what's going on there. Research evidence really clearly does say

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Speaker 1: though that while the TV might reinforce things that they

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Speaker 1: have been learning, it's not a good teacher. So, yes,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned that you were listening to Sesame Street or

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Speaker 1: play school and you learned your ABCS or your accounting.

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Speaker 1: You probably didn't actually learn it there. You learned it

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Speaker 1: as you were reading books with your parents, or as

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Speaker 1: you were spending time with friends, grandparents, whoever, whatever, at preschool,

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Speaker 1: and then when you see it and hear it on

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Speaker 1: Sesame Street, you have that reinforced. Moreover, here we are

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Speaker 1: in our forties and fifties and we're reflecting back and

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Speaker 1: saying I learned it on Sesame Street. The reality is

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Speaker 1: we don't know where we learned it. We can't remember

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Speaker 1: exactly where the best learning took place for us when

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Speaker 1: we were living forty plus years ago, so our ability

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Speaker 1: to accurately recall where we learned is minimized. And the

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Speaker 1: research evidence certainly indicates that TV is a poor teacher

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Speaker 1: relative to any other option that's out there. So if

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Speaker 1: we sum it up, these parents in this study from Japan,

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Speaker 1: the more that they're on their screens, the more they

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Speaker 1: diminish their children's positive developmental outcomes. I think that's a

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Speaker 1: really important take home message.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, it sounds a little bit doom and

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Speaker 2: gloom right now, So what are we going to do

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Speaker 2: about this?

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Speaker 1: I just want to pick you up on that doom

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Speaker 1: and gloom. Pretty Much every conversation we have about screens

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Speaker 1: when they're not used intentionally, creatively, constructively and in moderation,

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Speaker 1: the story is doom and gloom, particularly when it comes

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Speaker 1: to our kids. So the take home message, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we are about real parenting solutions every day on our podcast.

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Speaker 1: The take home messages to the extent that it's possible

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Speaker 1: keep screens away from your face, away from your eyes,

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Speaker 1: and away from your kid's eyes when they're growing up.

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Speaker 1: It's really that simple. They will simply do better when

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Speaker 1: they are engaged in analogue, person to person, face to

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Speaker 1: face conversations. Last year, we talked about a study that

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Speaker 1: just fascinated me where kids were having zoom conversations or

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Speaker 1: face to face conversations with their mum, and their brain

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Speaker 1: waves were being measured and there was nine times activation,

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Speaker 1: nine times the activation in a face to face conversation

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Speaker 1: compared to a zoom call. If that doesn't tell you

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Speaker 1: that screens are a hollow imitation of the real thing

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Speaker 1: of real life and are therefore not even nearly moving

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Speaker 1: towards optimal development for our kids, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: else will. I just I think this conversation is fascinating.

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Speaker 1: It so important. That's why I keep on digging up

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Speaker 1: these brand new, increasingly compelling studies that point in one direction,

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Speaker 1: and that is minimize our kids screen access. We'll link,

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Speaker 1: as we always do, to this doctor's desk study in

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Speaker 1: the show notes. Thanks so much for listening. We hope

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Speaker 1: that you get heaps out of these podcasts and they're useful.

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Speaker 1: If you've liked what we've talked about, please share the

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Speaker 1: podcast with a friend you can thought it really easily

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Speaker 1: by clicking a couple of buttons. And I just know

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Speaker 1: that our podcast episodes can help people to make their

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Speaker 1: families happier. We really appreciate the work of Justin rule

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Speaker 1: On from Bridge Media. He is our producer and our

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Speaker 1: show notes and other research assistants is from Mmhammond's. If

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Speaker 1: you'd like more information and resources to make your family happier,

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Speaker 1: visit happyfamilies dot com. Do do you