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Speaker 1: But look, as I mentioned earlier on the show, and

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Speaker 1: we've been discussing quite a bit over the last well

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Speaker 1: last week as well. On Friday, we know that NT

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Speaker 1: Legal Aid plans to cut crucial services due to underfunding,

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Speaker 1: in a move that could see criminals walk free, leave

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Speaker 1: others unrepresented in court, and we'll push a system that

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Speaker 1: already sounds like it is at breaking point. The service

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Speaker 1: provides free lawyers and advice to vulnerable Territorians and it's

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Speaker 1: planning to scale back services from January one due to

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Speaker 1: resourcing pressures. Now, joining us in the studio to tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit more about the situation more broadly

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Speaker 1: is the Criminal Lawyers Association of the Northern Territory's president,

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Speaker 1: Beth Wild.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you, Beth.

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Speaker 1: Good morning Katie, Thanks so much for joining me this morning. Now, Beth,

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Speaker 1: what's the situation from your perspective right now?

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Speaker 3: The announcements from Legal Aid did come as somewhat of

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Speaker 3: a shock to the legal profession when we found out

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Speaker 3: about it this week. The cuts that are proposed bi

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Speaker 3: Legal Aid are drastic. We've never seen anything like this

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Speaker 3: before and it's going to take effect almost immediately.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean for a lot of people listening. They

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Speaker 1: may have been through some kind of court case, you know,

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Speaker 1: and been through the legal system in one way or another.

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Speaker 1: For others, they might not really have any idea what

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Speaker 1: impact this is going to have, you know, on them,

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Speaker 1: on the community, on those you know who've been accused

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Speaker 1: of committing a crime, and on victims. Can you sort

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Speaker 1: of talk us through, I guess a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about what legal aid does and how this is going

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Speaker 1: to more broadly impact the system.

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Speaker 3: Sure, and yes, many people take for granted living in

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Speaker 3: Australia that we have a functioning justice system and it

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Speaker 3: doesn't affect them until it does. Until you're charged with

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Speaker 3: something or you're a victim of a crime and that

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Speaker 3: you do have to go through the court process. And then,

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Speaker 3: as Mary said it earlier, that's when you realize just

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Speaker 3: how important it is.

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Speaker 2: All the various roles that people have to play in that.

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Speaker 3: And that's defense lawyers, prosecutors, the judge, the prison guards,

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Speaker 3: the people bringing people to court, witnesses, all of those

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Speaker 3: things that go up to make a functioning justice system. Now,

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Speaker 3: the role that legal aid has to play in that

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Speaker 3: is that everyone who is charged with an offense that

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Speaker 3: can't afford their own legal representation, and that is the

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Speaker 3: vast majority of people coming before the courts. They can't

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Speaker 3: afford their own lawyers, and we're very expensive. So they

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Speaker 3: would then they would get a grant of legal aid

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Speaker 3: so that they're represented in court by a lawyer. The

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Speaker 3: cuts proposed by legal aid are such that adults won't

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Speaker 3: have a lawyer in court. They will have to represent

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Speaker 3: themselves in what is sometimes very complex legal proceedings for

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Speaker 3: serious offenses. That means is then you'll have someone left

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Speaker 3: to cross examine witnesses by themselves without a lawyer. As

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Speaker 3: Mary said earlier, they won't necessarily be able to refine

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Speaker 3: the issues that are really in dispute. That puts pressure

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Speaker 3: on the prosecutor to have to call every witness. That

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Speaker 3: means a case will take longer. Pressure gets put on

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Speaker 3: the judge who has to ensure that a fair trial

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Speaker 3: is being given to a defendant who's unrepresented. Those things

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Speaker 3: are very likely at best to cause a delay, but

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Speaker 3: you can also have other impacts upon it, which is

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Speaker 3: that a judge in the Supreme Court, for example, does

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Speaker 3: have some control over the court and it's on them

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Speaker 3: to ensure that a fair trial is given to a defendant. Now,

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Speaker 3: if a defendant can't get a fair trial, then it

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Speaker 3: might be that their prosecution is stayed, is the word

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Speaker 3: that we would use. It might be that the prosecution

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Speaker 3: can't be sustained and they would have to stay a prosecution,

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Speaker 3: which means that a criminal or someone charged with very

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Speaker 3: serious criminal offense will be released. So those are the

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Speaker 3: sort of ramifications that we're talking about. It's not just

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Speaker 3: somebody charged with stealing a car comes before the court

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Speaker 3: has to represent themselves. It's much bigger than that, and

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Speaker 3: it will impact upon the witnesses, the victims, the judges,

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Speaker 3: and the courts.

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Speaker 1: Look to me, it sounds like this could be a

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Speaker 1: massive problem in so many ways. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to be alarmist about it or anything like that,

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Speaker 1: but it sounds like it could be a massive problem.

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Speaker 2: And I know that to some people listening, they might

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Speaker 2: be going, well.

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Speaker 1: If you don't break the law, you don't have to

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Speaker 1: worry about legal representation. But from what I'm hearing this

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Speaker 1: morning as well, you know, it's not just about that

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Speaker 1: legal represent dentation, and everybody does deserve the right to

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Speaker 1: for legal representation, whether you know whether people like it

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Speaker 1: or not. But then also you know, for victims, if

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Speaker 1: a case gets thrown out or if you know, as

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Speaker 1: you've touched on there, if it's you know, if it's

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Speaker 1: not all labeled to happen in the way that it

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Speaker 1: should through the court system, then it's not a good

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Speaker 1: outcome for anybody.

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Speaker 2: By the sounds of things.

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Speaker 3: That's right, even if something isn't thrown out for example, yeah,

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Speaker 3: there's a really significant delay. Then that also impacts upon

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Speaker 3: witnesses and the viability of a prosecution, So you might

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Speaker 3: lose witnesses, the evidence will become less strong as time

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Speaker 3: goes past, it becomes more difficult for prosecutors to prove

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Speaker 3: their case, and you won't then have a conviction at

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Speaker 3: the end of it. So those things can impact upon

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Speaker 3: the efficacy of our justice system, which we do need

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Speaker 3: to be functioning.

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Speaker 2: In order for it to be effective.

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Speaker 1: It sounds as well, based on the front page of

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Speaker 1: the NT News today that you know the system is

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Speaker 1: understressed as it is my understanding based on comments that

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Speaker 1: have been made by yourself in the NT News that

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Speaker 1: there have been dozens of cases where clients were unable

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Speaker 1: to speak to their lawyers or were not taken to court.

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Speaker 2: What's going on in this space now?

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Speaker 3: This isn't something that's happened overnight. It is something that

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Speaker 3: has been building up to this point where we have

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Speaker 3: prisoners that are being kept in the watchhouse and we

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Speaker 3: heard about the escape about a month ago. Yeah, actually

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Speaker 3: sentenced prisoners because there's no space at the prison, are

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Speaker 3: being transferred to the watchouse to spend weeks there and

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Speaker 3: that is not a sustainable environment for the prisoners but

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Speaker 3: also for the police that are having to look after

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Speaker 3: them in the watch houses. It's the watch houses can't

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Speaker 3: do their job effectively. What happens when someone gets arrested

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Speaker 3: and is in a watchhouse and the prison cells are full,

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Speaker 3: they'll never come to court. So you'll get people that

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Speaker 3: are charged and go straight to prison without seeing a lawyer,

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Speaker 3: without fronting a court, So they'll just be a name,

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Speaker 3: an anonymous name on a list, and the lawyers down

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Speaker 3: at court will have to figure out where that person

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Speaker 3: is try and contact them, which can be difficult yelp

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Speaker 3: to get instructions to be to have the matter really

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Speaker 3: heard in court, and that's taking days, sometimes up to

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Speaker 3: seven days us for the lawyers down at court to

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Speaker 3: track down where people are.

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Speaker 1: It's I mean, to me, that sounds quite unbelievable, sounds

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Speaker 1: pretty crazy. I mean, the fact that we've already got

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Speaker 1: prisoners in our watchhouse, to me is pretty crazy right

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the city, is you know. It

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Speaker 1: sort of demonstrates to me, I can't really imagine how

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Speaker 1: different programs etc. To try and rehabilitate people are actually

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Speaker 1: happening if they're then in a watch house. Maybe I'm wrong,

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Speaker 1: maybe it is still happening, But I don't know, Ben,

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Speaker 1: do you know, you might know more than me, But

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Speaker 1: you know, then when you're at the fact that in

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Speaker 1: some cases, then I would imagine lawyers sort of having

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Speaker 1: to triage who they're then seeing or how people are

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Speaker 1: being represented, what's the situation from that aspect.

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Speaker 3: So the lawyers down at court will usually see people

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Speaker 3: who are brought into the sales first because we know

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Speaker 3: that they're there.

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Speaker 2: There's often a lag time with.

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Speaker 3: Getting paperwork though, that we don't get till the afternoon,

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Speaker 3: by which time the court has stopped seeing people. So

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Speaker 3: matters sketogen day after day without getting reached in court.

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Speaker 3: So that's a huge problem because people are being remanded

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Speaker 3: in custody and they might have a good prospective bail.

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Speaker 3: They might be a first defender. It might be a

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Speaker 3: pretty minor matter and they're not getting dealt with. It

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Speaker 3: might be a driving offense for example, So somebody might

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Speaker 3: be charged with driving unlicensed, they've done it before, they

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Speaker 3: get arrested, and they're spending seven days without seeing a

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Speaker 3: lawyer and then getting released. So we have those sorts

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Speaker 3: of things. That's expensive for people too, Like that's somebody

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Speaker 3: costing quite a lot of money to keep in the

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Speaker 3: system being shuffled through the watchhouse back to the prison

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Speaker 3: again video links. So a lot of prison guards involved

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Speaker 3: for something that they were going to get a fine for.

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Speaker 3: So that really is a waste of resources and demonstrative

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Speaker 3: system that's not working effectively.

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Speaker 2: So where to from here?

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Speaker 1: I mean, by the sounds of it, there needs to

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Speaker 1: be some really serious movement with the situation with legal aid.

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Speaker 1: We spoke to the Chief Minister, Lea Fanokiro a little

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Speaker 1: bit earlier this morning on the show. She seemed to

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Speaker 1: have a broad understanding of the impacts that you know,

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Speaker 1: not funding legal aid that it may have. Firstly, from

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Speaker 1: that perspective, where do you think we need to go.

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Speaker 2: With the situation with legal aid.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm very hopeful that the parties can get together

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Speaker 3: and come up with a solution. It seems to me

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Speaker 3: that it's between the federal government and the local end

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Speaker 3: government and legal Aid coming up with a solution whereby

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Speaker 3: it's adequately funded to meet the needs.

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Speaker 2: Now we know that the needs are increasing.

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Speaker 3: There's more people in jail than ever before, and so

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Speaker 3: those you have to meet. The other services that make

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Speaker 3: up part of the system also have to be funded.

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Speaker 3: You can't just keep funding police and corrections without funding

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Speaker 3: the other services such as courts and legal aid, because

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Speaker 3: if the balance is thrown out of whack. We see

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Speaker 3: what's happening right now.

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Speaker 1: So in that sense, obviously we need to try and

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Speaker 1: sort things out, or we need to, you know, we

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Speaker 1: need to, I don't know, they need to work things

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Speaker 1: out when it comes to legal aid. How big an

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Speaker 1: impact do you think the situation with NAJA has had

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Speaker 1: as well in terms of you know, what's now happening

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Speaker 1: with legal aid.

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Speaker 3: So from my understanding, what happened at NAGER put increased

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Speaker 3: stress and pressure on Legal Aid who undertook greater work,

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Speaker 3: and they did so on the understanding, I think that

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Speaker 3: they're funding requirements would be met. So from what I

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Speaker 3: understand that there have been no actual funding cuts from

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Speaker 3: either federal government or antique government. But the need's been

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Speaker 3: greater because of what happened at Narga, but also an

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Speaker 3: increasing need that we're seeing too. As I've said, there's

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Speaker 3: no prisoners in so we've got an increasing need.

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Speaker 2: We had the situation at Naga where they had.

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Speaker 3: Almost no lawyers in Alice Springs and had to stop

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Speaker 3: services all together, which then did create a pressure on

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Speaker 3: legal aids.

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Speaker 2: So it certainly has.

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Speaker 3: Impacted and we are seeing that and that's part of

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Speaker 3: what is happening at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Well, and then when you look at what's happening at

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Speaker 1: the moment, when you look at the stress on the system,

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Speaker 1: what do you think needs to happen in that space?

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Speaker 1: The funding obviously funding.

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Speaker 3: For legal aids, So that's one thing, and I hope

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Speaker 3: that they can get together and organize a solution. We're

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Speaker 3: really hopeful of that. It's heartening. As Mary said, the.

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Speaker 2: Chief Minister is as the issue. She's a former lawyer.

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Speaker 3: I understand she's a lawyer, so that's really good news

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Speaker 3: for all of the justice system in the Northern Territory

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Speaker 3: that she'll be across these issues. So we do need

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Speaker 3: that sorted out. But there is the other issue, of course,

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Speaker 3: where we've got this bottleneck in the courts with matters

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Speaker 3: not being reached with people.

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Speaker 2: In the cells.

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Speaker 3: Now, I think what we probably need to see happen

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Speaker 3: is an increased capacity in the cells in their local court.

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Speaker 3: We need an increased capacity of the courts to deal

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Speaker 3: with matters so that they're not being adjourned.

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Speaker 2: It's not just people in custody.

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Speaker 3: People coming to court for all they're driving offense will

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Speaker 3: sit day after day. I had one person sit for

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Speaker 3: three days and just not get reached and be adjourned

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Speaker 3: and have to come back next week and then the

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Speaker 3: next day just to have a very simple matter dealt

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Speaker 3: with for which she received a fine.

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Speaker 1: It does seem like, I mean, obviously this hasn't happened overnight,

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Speaker 1: right Like, it seems to me like it's something that's

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Speaker 1: maybe been kind of bubbling along for quite a while,

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Speaker 1: and you know, like a few different things that have

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Speaker 1: happened that have just exasperated the whole situation.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's right, of course, And I read the comments

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Speaker 3: of the Deputy Chief Minister this morning in the paper

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Speaker 3: as well, and.

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Speaker 2: That's absolutely true. It has not this.

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Speaker 3: It is something that the government has inherited. There are

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Speaker 3: government now and they need to look for solutions for us,

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Speaker 3: and I'm happy to talk to them about solutions that

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Speaker 3: we can all work through together to make sure that

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Speaker 3: we're dealing with matters in a timely fashion, so that

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Speaker 3: matters can be dealt with, so that victims get justice,

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Speaker 3: so that we don't so that witnesses can come to

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Speaker 3: court and tell their stories, so that we can really

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Speaker 3: make sure we've got a functioning legal system that serves

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Speaker 3: us all.

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Speaker 1: Well. Bethwild, the head of the Anti Criminal Lawyers Association, President,

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Speaker 1: we really appreciate your time this morning. Thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me on the show.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Katie, thank you