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Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS.

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Speaker 1: Oh now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Daily OS. It's Monday, the twelfth of May. I'm

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Speaker 1: Billy fitz Simon's I'm Sam because Looski. Did you know

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Speaker 1: that some politicians still get paid an annual salary or

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Speaker 1: in this case, a pension upon retiring from parliament. You didn't, Well,

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Speaker 1: this podcast is for you. Then. Now the scheme no

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Speaker 1: longer exists, but politicians who were in Parliament prior to

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Speaker 1: it being acted in two thousand and four are still eligible.

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Speaker 1: And the reason we are talking about it now is

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Speaker 1: because Peter Dutton, who just lost his seat of Dixon

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Speaker 1: and so will be removed from Parliament after twenty four years,

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Speaker 1: is one of the eligible politicians. We thought it was

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Speaker 1: the perfect time to explore this little known scheme that

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Speaker 1: will see millions of dollars being paid out to form

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Speaker 1: a politicians for decades to come.

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Speaker 2: The first thing I think of when you start talking

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Speaker 2: about this is those ads for the lottery which say

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Speaker 2: you're going to get paid twenty five thousand dollars every

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Speaker 2: year for the rest of your life.

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen those ads.

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Speaker 2: Oh, well, you should watch more daytime commercial television. But

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Speaker 2: it's this amazing idea that they could just be getting

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Speaker 2: this salary forever. Where did this all come from?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so this story starts in nineteen forty eight, and

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Speaker 1: that is the year that's something called the Parliamentary Contributory,

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Speaker 1: which is a tongue twister super annuation scheme or we'll

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Speaker 1: call it PCSS was created. And this was a scheme

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Speaker 1: that mandated, so it became by law required that politicians

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Speaker 1: who had completed twelve years of service in parliament be

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Speaker 1: paid a certain amount each year once they leave parliament.

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Speaker 2: I guess then kind of a milestone for politicians to

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Speaker 2: work towards and then they're kind of set for life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And the amount owed is dependent on how long

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Speaker 1: they were in parliament for and also if they held

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Speaker 1: any senior roles such as being a minister. Another interesting

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Speaker 1: thing about it is that how much you are owed

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Speaker 1: is dependent on what the current salary of an MP is. Interesting,

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Speaker 1: so if you were in parliament in the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 1: for example, obviously the salary that you got then is

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Speaker 1: not the salary that MPs today get. Sure, but what

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Speaker 1: you're being paid is dependent on what MPs today get paid, right,

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Speaker 1: And like I said, it's dependent on how long you

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Speaker 1: were there for. So if you were in parliament for

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Speaker 1: say fifteen years, you got more money than someone who

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Speaker 1: was in parliament for twelve years. And if you were

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Speaker 1: a Minister for Education, let's say, then you got more

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Speaker 1: than someone who was a backbencher.

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Speaker 2: And is the reason all of this came into existence

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Speaker 2: the same way that employers think about like long service

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Speaker 2: leave or something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of it was well in nineteen forty eight.

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Speaker 1: How super annuation existed then is nothing like how it

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Speaker 1: exists today, And so that was one of the primary

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Speaker 1: reasons that this existed. It was seen as a way

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Speaker 1: to entice people to get into politics because a lot

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Speaker 1: of people would have been leaving the private sector where

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Speaker 1: they may have been owed something like long service leave,

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Speaker 1: like you said, and so this wasn't way to entice

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Speaker 1: people to get into politics.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: Another reason is that it was seen as harder for

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Speaker 1: a politician to re establish their career once their parliamentary

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Speaker 1: term was over.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Interesting, So you had a situation where they established

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Speaker 2: this scheme because people were leaving private jobs to enter

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Speaker 2: politics and then perhaps struggling to get jobs after being

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Speaker 2: in politics. How weird that today, I was going to say,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of the opposite.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not really the case that it's harder to

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Speaker 1: find a job after politics.

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Speaker 2: I would think, probably say it's easier. Like we see

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Speaker 2: a lot of politicians move into the private sector sitting

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Speaker 2: on boards and becoming parliamentary advisors or strategy advisors for

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Speaker 2: private companies and earning a lot more than they didn't.

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Speaker 1: Enroll them exactly. But I think the big reason for

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Speaker 1: this scheme existing was because it was a form of

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Speaker 1: superannuation and it was a way to pay people after

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Speaker 1: they retired, which when this was created, I mean superannuation

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Speaker 1: wasn't even mandatory in Australia until nineteen ninety two, So

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Speaker 1: you have to remember this was not created now, this

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Speaker 1: was created at a certain period in time when things

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Speaker 1: were very different.

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Speaker 2: And you mentioned before that it ended in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and four. Yes, what were the reasons that they wound

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Speaker 2: this program up?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so it was abolished in two thousand and four

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Speaker 1: by then Prime Minister John Howard. It was actually an

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Speaker 1: idea brought forward by Mark Latham, who at the time

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Speaker 1: was Opposition leader and the leader of the Labor Party. Now,

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Speaker 1: the Labor Party and the Coalition were gearing up for

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Speaker 1: an election at the time. Mark Latham brought this idea

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Speaker 1: forward and John Howard responded by saying, I don't necessarily

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Speaker 1: agree with this position, but I don't want this to

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Speaker 1: become a partisan debate, so we're just going to abolish

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Speaker 1: and he recognized that it was seen as too generous

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Speaker 1: by community standards. I actually found a clip of John

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Speaker 1: Howard announcing that it was going to be abolished, which

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Speaker 1: I thought I would play.

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Speaker 3: There is a community perception that this sufers too generous.

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Speaker 3: I think the adverable package is not too generous, that

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Speaker 3: people think the super is generous, and rather than listing

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Speaker 3: drift on for months as the subject of a partisan

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Speaker 3: political debate, I've decided to act immediately to get it

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Speaker 3: off the agenda as a partisan political issue.

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Speaker 1: Now, although it was dismantled, this scheme is still applicable

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Speaker 1: to anyone who entered Parliament before the two thousand and

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Speaker 1: four federal election. For anyone who was elected after that date,

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Speaker 1: there is a different scheme that exists, and it's just

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Speaker 1: more in line with how super anuation works for everyone today.

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Speaker 2: So I guess if you entered Parliament before that two

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Speaker 2: thousand and four cutoff date, you essentially kind of signed

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Speaker 2: terms and conditions. Yes, that still need to be a

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Speaker 2: please for the rest of your life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess it must have been part of their

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Speaker 1: contractor that they signed at the time.

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Speaker 2: Well, there'll be quite a few of them, because we

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Speaker 2: have quite a few long serving members of Parliament. Who

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Speaker 2: are the politicians who would still be eligible for this?

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Speaker 1: I thought I would turn this back on you. Who

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Speaker 1: do you think would still be eligible for this? Or

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Speaker 1: how many politicians that are in Parliament today? Do you

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Speaker 1: think we're in parliament prior to two thousand and four?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so we've got we've got one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: in the lower House, and how many senators are there?

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Speaker 1: About seventy I think.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's call it to twenty. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: say that there was twenty five percent of them.

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Speaker 1: Wow, is that right? No? No, much smaller than that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So it just feels like an old institution.

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Speaker 1: Yes, ASTI politics totally fair. No, So there are actually

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Speaker 1: only six remainings after the election that we just had,

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Speaker 1: there are now only six that are still in Parliament

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Speaker 1: and were there prior to two thousand and four. Can

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Speaker 1: you name many of.

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Speaker 2: Them current members?

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Speaker 1: Yes? Alban easy, Yes, Tick came in in nineteen ninety six.

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Speaker 1: How's this audio experience for the listeners?

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is really challenging.

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Speaker 1: Should I go through them?

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Speaker 2: It's like because I'm thinking, like the oldest people that

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Speaker 2: can possibly imagine in parliament.

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Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, the ones they're not that old. They

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Speaker 1: must have just gone into Parliament when they were relatively.

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Speaker 2: Yes, fineby Joyce.

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Speaker 1: No, no, let me tell you someone them. Tanya Plibasak.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: She was first elected in nineteen ninety eight, around the

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Speaker 1: same time as Anthony Alberanzi. Catherine King, who is a

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Speaker 1: Labor MP. I don't think she's as well known as

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Speaker 1: the other ones, but she was first elected in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and one. Penny One, who I'm sure you'll be

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Speaker 1: familiar with, she was first elected to that.

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Speaker 2: I approached this problem the wrong way.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, yes, Susan Lee.

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Speaker 2: Buying for the leadership of the Liberal Party.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and how could you forget Bob Catter first elected

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 2: You've got that group of six, which is actually a

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Speaker 2: much more diverse but also quite a powerful group. Yes, six, Yes,

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Speaker 2: then I would have thought.

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Speaker 1: Yes, they have been in their job for a long time.

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Speaker 1: They've been in Parliament for a long time, so.

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Speaker 2: They will continue to get that benefit.

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Speaker 1: Once they retire. But obviously none of them have retired yet.

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Speaker 1: But why we're talking about it today, or why it's

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Speaker 1: come up in the news recently, is because Peter Dunnan

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Speaker 1: has obviously just retired from Parliament and he is now

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Speaker 1: eligible for this.

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Speaker 2: We're going to be back with the rest of the

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Speaker 2: deep Dive after a quick message from our sponsor.

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Speaker 1: Now, the equation to work out exactly how much he

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Speaker 1: will get is complex, like literally the most complex I think.

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Speaker 1: I sat at my desk for an hour just trying

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Speaker 1: to figure this out.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this about me, Sam,

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Speaker 1: but I did extension mass times, so I pride myself

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Speaker 1: on being able to do mass. It was just it's

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Speaker 1: dependent on how many roles for how many years, Like

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Speaker 1: sometimes it comes down to how many days you were

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Speaker 1: in a certain position for and that all comes into

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Speaker 1: how much you get once you retire. But news publication

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Speaker 1: cry he had much more stamina than me, and they

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Speaker 1: did do the maths, and they estimated it to be

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Speaker 1: about two hundred and fifty eight thousand dollars a year,

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Speaker 1: which sounds about based on the numbers that I saw

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Speaker 1: in the in the report. Yea, and that's what So

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Speaker 1: that means, just to reiterate that Peter Dunnan will get

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Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty eight thousand dollars a year every

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Speaker 1: single year for the rest of his life.

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Speaker 2: And I wonder if he's allowed to also earn income

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Speaker 2: through other means silent, so it's not exclusively you have

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Speaker 2: to earn it. So you could safely assume that he'll

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Speaker 2: ran to the private sector most likely see on some boards,

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Speaker 2: do some speaking events, yep, do some advisory work, write

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Speaker 2: a book. There's so many different ways that politicians can

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Speaker 2: make money after their career. In camera wraps up. Yes,

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Speaker 2: that you could conceive that that two hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: will turn into five hundred grand pretty quick.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're talking about cumulatively with whatever other endeavors he

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Speaker 1: exact signed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a nice kind of safety net to have

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Speaker 2: until you die.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's a very high income. It is on

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Speaker 1: the higher end of the amount available, and it's because

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Speaker 1: he was in parliament for so long, so twenty four years,

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Speaker 1: like I mentioned, and he also held several ministerial roles

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Speaker 1: when the coalition was in government. So that's why it

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Speaker 1: definitely is on the higher end.

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Speaker 2: And so if we zoom out and we think about

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Speaker 2: those six current members, but also then everyone alive who

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Speaker 2: was in politics before two thousand and four, how much

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Speaker 2: is this program actually costing us the Australian tax payer.

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Speaker 1: So the Department of Finance ran the numbers in a

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Speaker 1: report it released in twenty twenty three. It found that

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Speaker 1: there are more than four hundred retired politicians and their

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Speaker 1: spouses who are still being paid this annual payment. In

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Speaker 1: terms of how much it is costing us in the

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Speaker 1: current financial year, so twenty twenty four twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: the government will spend about forty eight million dollars on

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Speaker 1: this scheme and that's this year alone. Now, what I

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Speaker 1: found interesting is that they expect that these payments will

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Speaker 1: still be being paid up until at least twenty sixty.

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Speaker 2: Three, isn't it remarked? I mean that makes sense. I

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Speaker 2: mean we're thinking then about forty years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're trying to start doing the mathspect Jim match,

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Speaker 1: it goes a bit dark very quickly.

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Speaker 2: But isn't it fascinating that a reform that was wrapped

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Speaker 2: up formally in two thousand and four will actually come

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Speaker 2: out of you know, out of play sixty years.

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Speaker 1: Yeat so interesting and I think it's something that we

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Speaker 1: don't hear a lot about because it did wrap up

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Speaker 1: twenty years ago. But it's just interesting how a policy

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Speaker 1: like you said that you know, first started what is

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Speaker 1: the mass nearly ninety years ago, eighty years ago, it

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Speaker 1: will continue to cost tax payers millions of dollars for

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Speaker 1: decades after it ended.

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Speaker 2: Can I ask you a question to wrap up, Billy,

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Speaker 2: what's your personal opinion on whether politicians should be paid

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Speaker 2: after I mean, whether it's this program or another program?

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Speaker 2: Do you think politicians should be entitled to payments after

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Speaker 2: they leave politics?

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Speaker 1: Well? Putting me on this spot, especially when we always

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Speaker 1: say TDA, we don't.

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Speaker 2: Do opinions, well, this would be a non part as

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Speaker 2: an opinion applying to everyone on all sides of politics.

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Speaker 1: That's true. I think that what they have now, which

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Speaker 1: is just a superannuation scheme that's in line with what

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Speaker 1: everyone else gets, makes sense.

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Speaker 2: But I don't think that but you don't get a

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Speaker 2: superannuation payment for the rest of your life if you

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Speaker 2: work in public health.

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Speaker 1: No, but you get money put aside that you then

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Speaker 1: have access to for the rest of your life. And

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Speaker 1: I think that, you know, politicians should have that just

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Speaker 1: as everyone else should have that. But I think a

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Speaker 1: scheme like this. But like I said, it was do

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Speaker 1: you know that quote you can't judge the past with

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Speaker 1: the spirit of the present? I think, lovely have you

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Speaker 1: never heard that? That's nice one of my favorite quotes.

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Speaker 1: And I think that you know, it made sense for

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Speaker 1: the time when it was created, but it doesn't make

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Speaker 1: sense today.

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Speaker 2: That is a really interesting way to start our Monday morning. Billy.

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Speaker 1: Thanks, Are you going to tell us your opinion?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Okay, I think I need to understand a little

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Speaker 2: bit more about how politicians earn money whilst they're in parliament.

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Speaker 1: So like a true politician, Sam, I need to understand

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Speaker 1: how they get on super Yes, they get super.

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Speaker 2: Well, so then why do they get extra super well.

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Speaker 1: So here they did do like salary sacrifice, but it

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Speaker 1: was a much smaller percentage and a much smaller amount

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Speaker 1: than what they are now entitled to In the years

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Speaker 1: after they retire, so it doesn't It's not like how

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Speaker 1: superannuation works today, where you get a certain amount put

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Speaker 1: aside and then you get access to that later. They

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Speaker 1: were putting a certain amount aside, but they get much

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Speaker 1: more when they retire, Like a lot more is being

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Speaker 1: spent out for them.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's so interesting. I think my view is that

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Speaker 2: it should be relevant to how much they're earning from

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Speaker 2: other things, and I think that it should be a

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Speaker 2: safety net that's one hundred sent there if they can't

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Speaker 2: enter the private sector, but if they're delivering big speeches

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Speaker 2: and writing books and sitting on boards, maybe there should

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Speaker 2: be some sort of way for that to kind of

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Speaker 2: beat tones down a little bit. But neither of us

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Speaker 2: are in charge, and that's okay because we're here here

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Speaker 2: in the pod and we'll make a difference our own

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Speaker 2: way and definitely not have as much money as politicians do. Lives.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us on this morning's pod.

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Speaker 2: That was a really interesting chat. Thank you, Billy, and

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Speaker 2: thank you for joining us wherever you're listening or watching us.

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Speaker 2: We hope you have a really great week and get

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Speaker 2: through some of the kind of you know, struggles of

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Speaker 2: the early Monday morning. Itis. You can always check out

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Speaker 2: our newsletter. We've got you know, picture this game. We've

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Speaker 2: got stuff going on on our Instagram. There's lots to

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Speaker 2: check out to get a spring in your step. We'll

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Speaker 2: be back again with the headlines in the afternoon. Until then,

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Speaker 2: see you later.

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Speaker 1: Bye.

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Speaker 2: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 2: Bunjelung Chalcoltin woman from Gadigo Country.

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Speaker 1: Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the

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Speaker 1: lands of the Gadigal people and pays respect to all

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Speaker 1: Aboriginal and torrest Rate island and nations. We pay our

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Speaker 1: respects to the first peoples of these countries, both past

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Speaker 1: and present.