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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. Now, do you

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Speaker 1: ever wonder why some movies have a G rating, some

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Speaker 1: have a PG rating, others have an M or an MAA.

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Speaker 1: What do the ratings mean? Why do they always change?

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Speaker 1: Why do they not seem very consistent? What is the

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Speaker 1: deal with ratings? And how can we use them to

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Speaker 1: guide the decisions that we're making for our children effectively

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Speaker 1: and in healthy ways. Today I'm joined by a Professor

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Hansley on the Happy Families Podcast. Professor Hansley is

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Speaker 1: an adjunct professor in the School of Law at Western

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Speaker 1: Sydney University. Elizabeth is the President of Children and Media Australia,

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Speaker 1: it's national NGO providing information and advocacy on children's needs

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Speaker 1: and rights as media users. Liz has been on podcasts

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Speaker 1: and TV shows and in conferences talking about screens in

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Speaker 1: the lives of children and families. And I'm really excited

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Speaker 1: for this conversation today. It's one of those things that

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Speaker 1: really really bothers me, Liz, the way that ratings are

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Speaker 1: so inconsistent, they don't seem to be applied even though

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Speaker 1: we have them, and in some ways it's kind of like, well,

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Speaker 1: what's the point of ratings, because with podcasts and with streaming,

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Speaker 1: does any of this even matter anymore? The reason we're

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Speaker 1: talking is there's an inquiry into Australia's national classification scheme

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Speaker 1: being run by the Australian federal government and that's what

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Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about today, Liz, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with me. What's the deal with ratings?

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Speaker 1: Do they still matter?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a delight to be here, justin I'm really

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Speaker 2: happy to talk to you and I hope that what

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Speaker 2: we say will be of use to your listeners. Is

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Speaker 2: there any point to classifications? Well, look, we think there

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Speaker 2: is a huge point to them, which is to provide

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Speaker 2: information to parents and others who make decisions on behalf

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Speaker 2: of children as to what children should be seeing and

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Speaker 2: not seeing. And there is great potential for classifications to

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Speaker 2: be useful in that regard. The problem is that the

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Speaker 2: system that we have at the moment really doesn't provide

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Speaker 2: the kind of information that we need. It doesn't provide

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Speaker 2: age based information, and it doesn't provide research based information.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot of stuff in there that there's

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Speaker 2: really no research to support and where there is research

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Speaker 2: to support it, they tend to go off in the

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Speaker 2: opposite direction or a different direction from where the research

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Speaker 2: would lead. And that's what's great about these proposals that

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Speaker 2: the government's looking at now because they really open up

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Speaker 2: the possibility of having a greater impact from research evidence.

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Speaker 2: And also hopefully we really we've got our fingers cross

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Speaker 2: age based classifications, which we know that would be really

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Speaker 2: really helpful to parents.

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Speaker 1: I want to come back to both the age based

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Speaker 1: and the research based classification elements shortly, but just a

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Speaker 1: quick anecdote. Recently, I sat down with a couple of

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Speaker 1: my kids to watch a movie that was classified as

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Speaker 1: PG and I had to turn it off. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was explicit, it had content in there that was

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Speaker 1: so coarse and degrading, and I just sat there and thought,

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Speaker 1: what is going on here? I know that there's some

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Speaker 1: research around this idea of ratings creep. That is, what

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Speaker 1: was once rated as let's say, an R rated movie

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Speaker 1: has now moved back to being an M or an

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Speaker 1: MA Many M and maas have been shifted back to

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Speaker 1: being pgs. Now, can you describe a bit about what

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Speaker 1: ratings creep really is, and the extent to which it's

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Speaker 1: a problem.

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Speaker 2: The problem here is that the criteria that we have

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Speaker 2: are so subjective that the conclusions that people reach when

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Speaker 2: they apply those criteria will change over time because people's

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Speaker 2: values and standards change over time, and their experience might,

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Speaker 2: to use your word, course in them to certain elements

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Speaker 2: that they might see. I've also heard quite a few

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Speaker 2: people saying that what's suitable for a child or a

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Speaker 2: group of children will depend on what that child or

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Speaker 2: children have already seen. So it's like, oh, if they

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Speaker 2: say in this movie, then they'll be okay with that movie.

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Speaker 2: And again that implies that what we're interested in here

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Speaker 2: is coursening, that if someone's been coarsened to something, then

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Speaker 2: they'll be okay going forward, and that's not what the

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Speaker 2: research says at all. Rather, it says there's more of

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Speaker 2: a dose response relationship. And particularly if you think about

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Speaker 2: something like violence, the more violent content a child is

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Speaker 2: exposed to, the more likely that child is too become

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Speaker 2: desensitized to violence, to developed attitudes that aren't as sort

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Speaker 2: of concerned with violence as we would like children to be,

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Speaker 2: and so on. So there's a lot of difficulties with

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Speaker 2: just the general beliefs and practices out there in the community,

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Speaker 2: which again aren't based on research, and that's why we

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Speaker 2: would really like to bring it back to the research.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's one of the things that my kids are

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Speaker 1: constantly hearing me say is just because your friends are

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Speaker 1: allowed to watch it, doesn't mean that you're allowed to

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Speaker 1: watch it. Every family has different standards. This inquiry that

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Speaker 1: the government's having and the submission that Children in Meater

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Speaker 1: Australia have made, can you talk a bit about this

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Speaker 1: age based criteria that you're describing, and then we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about the research base as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we'd be delighted to see age based classifications. At

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Speaker 2: the moment, people are probably familiar with the idea of

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Speaker 2: M A fifteen plus.

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Speaker 1: That's the only one we've got that, yes, of course.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well we have eighteen, we have fifteen, but anybody

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Speaker 2: under fifteen. We're just reliant on these very very vague

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Speaker 2: and broad and amorphous ideas of GPG and M and

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Speaker 2: listeners might not be aware, but M is different from

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Speaker 2: M A fifteen plus and it's not legally restricted, so

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Speaker 2: anybody can legally watch M rated content and that includes

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Speaker 2: some quite violent superhero content. For example. And it also

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Speaker 2: might include some rom coms that might have some sexual

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Speaker 2: content that some people might feel uncomfortable with, but other's

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Speaker 2: not so much. And so that's why we really need

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Speaker 2: to know more about the actual content of the of

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Speaker 2: the films and so on that are out there. And

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Speaker 2: remember we're talking about games as well, and apps and

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Speaker 2: other sorts of content a subject to this classification.

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Speaker 1: You've just raised something for me as well. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the games will come back to But why don't we

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Speaker 1: have ratings on books? I'm always astounded that there are

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Speaker 1: no raps on books. Even the theater, if you're going

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Speaker 1: to go and see a play, no ratings. What's the

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Speaker 1: deal with this? I just don't quite get how these

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Speaker 1: things have slipped through the cracks.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it's just that different legal schemes grow up

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Speaker 2: in different places for different purposes, and they don't end

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Speaker 2: up being comprehensive. But we do actually have classifications for

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Speaker 2: written publications. It's just they don't try to be as

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Speaker 2: comprehensive as for films. And there are some things that

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Speaker 2: are submittable for classification which would basically be pornomax just

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Speaker 2: to put two fine A points on it. So if

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Speaker 2: things have fairly strong sexual content, then they would be submittable,

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Speaker 2: and there's a couple of different levels of classification depending

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Speaker 2: just how much detail they show.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about how this would work though. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you're going to have an age based classification scheme,

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Speaker 1: how do you determine from a developmental perspective whether it's

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Speaker 1: old can or cannot watch that superhero movie? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know plenty of people who are really fine with

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Speaker 1: their five and six year olds watching them, and in

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Speaker 1: our home, our kids don't tend to watch them until

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Speaker 1: they're in their adolescent use. It's a big.

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Speaker 2: Discrepancy, yeah, exactly. Superhero movies are an interesting example because

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Speaker 2: they're often heavily promoted to very young children well before the.

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Speaker 1: Classification is known, not just the movie, but the merch, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the kids get all the merch before the

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Speaker 1: movie comes out.

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Speaker 2: That's what I mean. I mean the merch. Merch comes

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Speaker 2: out long before, and it's clearly merch that is aimed

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Speaker 2: at young children as size for pajamas, little backpacks, little

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Speaker 2: pencil cases, all that sort of stuff. We've all seen it,

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Speaker 2: and that really undermines the classification message when it comes

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Speaker 2: out so by the time you find out that it's

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Speaker 2: emerated and therefore not recommended for anybody under fifteen, it's

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Speaker 2: too late and the die is cast. Every four year

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Speaker 2: old's going to see it because that expectation has been raised,

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Speaker 2: and it's just too much to ask if parents that

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Speaker 2: they resist that, and there's no legal compulsion on them

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Speaker 2: to do so. But to come back to your original question,

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Speaker 2: the government is proposing to put in place a panel

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Speaker 2: which has people on it who have research in different

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Speaker 2: disciplines bit psychology, education, pediatrics. We'd hope there'd be some

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Speaker 2: pediatric nurses on there because they know real lot about

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Speaker 2: child development, and then they would look at all of

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Speaker 2: the research and try to get some sort of sense

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Speaker 2: of what's suitable for a five year old, a nine

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Speaker 2: year old, thirteen year old and so on, and have

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Speaker 2: the classifications accordingly. Most of these classifications, we would hope

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Speaker 2: would still be advisory. So if you've got a particularly

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Speaker 2: mature five year old, then maybe they could see something

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Speaker 2: a bit higher. That's up to you, but you've got

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Speaker 2: all the information to make that decision. And also if

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Speaker 2: a child's especially sensitive, then you might not show them

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Speaker 2: something that would otherwise be okay for their age group.

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Speaker 2: But we do think that there are some things, just

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Speaker 2: as with the kind of content where we have the

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Speaker 2: cutoff of eighteen and fifteen, we think it would be

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Speaker 2: justifiable to have a cutoff of twelve for some content

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Speaker 2: where we're parents just told very strongly your child should

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Speaker 2: not be seeing this and use the legal system to

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Speaker 2: do so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's the age based and I guess the

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Speaker 1: research would inform that age based system classification system that

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Speaker 1: you're discussing, Liz. Something that's been on my mind a

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Speaker 1: lot lately with the introduction of Kyle Sandlans and Jackie

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Speaker 1: O into Melbourne Radio, the growth in the listenership that

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Speaker 1: they have. I'm astonished at the content that is being

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Speaker 1: played at six o'clock, seven o'clock, eight o'clock, nine o'clock

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Speaker 1: in the morning, when parents are doing school runs with

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Speaker 1: their kids. I know that there's codes of practice around this,

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Speaker 1: but it seems like to some degree much of the

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Speaker 1: world has just stopped caring about explicit content, content that

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Speaker 1: is genuinely not for kids. I mean, I might even

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Speaker 1: argue that it's not really for some adults as well,

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Speaker 1: But regardless of that, my question isn't so much about

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Speaker 1: Kyle and Jackie out as much as I think that

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Speaker 1: the degrading way that they present is definitely affecting our

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Speaker 1: kids in unhelpful ways. Rather, the question is what do

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Speaker 1: you think typical mums and dads are focused on now

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Speaker 1: when it comes to their children's exposure to various forms

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Speaker 1: of content. Is it the same today in twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: four as it was back in the nineteen eighties when

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Speaker 1: I was a kid growing up, and mom and dad

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Speaker 1: would say absolutely, no, you're not watching that emirated movie

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Speaker 1: because you're a kid, you're ten years old. What are

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Speaker 1: you seeing in children in media Australia in terms of

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Speaker 1: responses from parents on topics like this.

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Speaker 2: Well, the kinds of parents who get in touch with

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Speaker 2: us are the parents who care a real lot. They're

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Speaker 2: very concerned about what their children are seeing and hearing

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Speaker 2: and playing, and they really seek out our help in

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Speaker 2: not just giving them advice as to what they should

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Speaker 2: be doing in their own home, but in supporting the

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Speaker 2: broader reforms that we advocate for. But I don't know

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Speaker 2: if there is such a thing as a typical parent really,

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Speaker 2: because you know that's that group of parents. But then

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Speaker 2: there are other parents who want their children to have

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Speaker 2: as broader an experience as possible, and as I was

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Speaker 2: saying before, parents who think, oh, they've already seen this,

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Speaker 2: so that should that means they should be okay to

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Speaker 2: see that they have that sort of logic to what

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Speaker 2: they do. Parents do all different sorts of things, but

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Speaker 2: I think ultimately all parents, with maybe a very few,

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Speaker 2: very minor exceptions, want their children to grow up healthy

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Speaker 2: and happy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm convinced that having a healthy classification system

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Speaker 1: is going to be part of that, so that we

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Speaker 1: can make sure that our kids aren't seeing content that's

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Speaker 1: not developmentally appropriate, that exposed them the things they're not

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Speaker 1: ready for.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and we want to make it usable for parents,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's part of the problem at the moment.

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Speaker 2: A lot of parents have sort of checked out of

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Speaker 2: the system because it's not usable, because it doesn't provide

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Speaker 2: the kind of information that they want. We would like

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Speaker 2: to see a lot and we would expect to see

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Speaker 2: a lot more parents relying on a very well design

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Speaker 2: system that provides the information they need.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Liz, the classification inquiry is ongoing into this scheme

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Speaker 1: that currently exists and how it can be improved. But

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Speaker 1: if I'm a parent today who wants help, I mean personally,

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Speaker 1: as you know, I've been a long time following supporter

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Speaker 1: of what you do at Children Media Australia. But if

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Speaker 1: I'm just hearing this conversation for the first time, where

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Speaker 1: do I go? What do I do to help my

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Speaker 1: children to minimize the risk that they're going to be

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Speaker 1: exposed to content that's not for them in movies and

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Speaker 1: games and other media.

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Speaker 2: Well, justin thank you very much for the opportunity to

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Speaker 2: plug Children and Media Australians know before you go movie

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Speaker 2: review service. If parents what that kind of information, all

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Speaker 2: they have to do is go to Children Andmedia dot

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Speaker 2: org dot au and click on the movie reviews tab

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Speaker 2: and there you'll find reviews of every movie or release

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Speaker 2: in Australian cinemas since two thousand and two that was

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Speaker 2: rated G ORPG and of emirated ones that were promoted

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Speaker 2: to children, and a selection of other movies that might

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Speaker 2: be older but are available on streaming services. And we

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Speaker 2: also review apps, so you can go there and get

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Speaker 2: information that is from a child development perspective. It's written

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Speaker 2: by somebody with child development expertise, and that is age based,

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Speaker 2: and it gives recommendations for different age groups of children.

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Speaker 2: Now you don't have to do or not do or

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Speaker 2: to follow the recommendations, but there's lots of information there.

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Speaker 2: One thing that I did with my own daughter when

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Speaker 2: she was younger was she wanted to see a particular

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Speaker 2: movie and I wasn't sure if it was going to

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Speaker 2: be right for her, and we sat down and read

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Speaker 2: the review together, and based on what was in the review,

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Speaker 2: I think she was probably about eleven or twelve at

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Speaker 2: the time, and that's often a tricky age when kids

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Speaker 2: really want to watch quite adult stuff and you're really

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Speaker 2: a bit nervous about what's going to do. Anyway, we

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Speaker 2: read the review together and she thought, based on it, no,

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Speaker 2: I still want to see it, and so I went

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Speaker 2: along with her, and we talked about it afterwards, and

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Speaker 2: she said, well, I'm really glad I read the review

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Speaker 2: before because it would have been really, really scary if

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Speaker 2: I hadn't known how the movie works out. And so

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Speaker 2: she enjoyed the movie and she got a lot out

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Speaker 2: of it, but she wasn't scared out of her wits

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Speaker 2: as she might have been if she hadn't read the reviews,

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Speaker 2: so that's one thing you can do with the reviews,

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Speaker 2: or just read it yourself and make up in your

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Speaker 2: own mind. It's entirely up.

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Speaker 1: To you now. Like that, Forewarned is forearmed, No before

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Speaker 1: you go. Children and Media Australia. Professor Elizabeth Hansley is

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Speaker 1: the President of Children and Media Australia and it's been

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Speaker 1: so great to talk to you about the challenges with ratings.

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Speaker 1: I hope that the submission is well received and we

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Speaker 1: see some changes to the national classification scheme. My goodness,

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Speaker 1: we need it. Thank you so much, Liz for.

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Speaker 2: Your time, My pleasure to be with you. Justin.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rulant from

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. And for

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Speaker 1: more information about making your family happy, we'd love for

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Speaker 1: you to visit Happy families dot com dot We'll put

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Speaker 1: some notes about Children MEA Australia in the show notes

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Speaker 1: so that you can check out all the resources there

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 2: Let