1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: This is The Happy Family's podcast with doctor Justin Coulson, 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: the podcast for the time Poor Parent, who Just Wants 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: Answers Now, And for this particular episode, we're catching up 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: with a conversation that doctor Justin Coulson had with Kindling 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: on the very important topic of how to protect your 6 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: kids from inappropriate content online. The other guest on the 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: show is e Safety Commissioner Julie Inman Grant, and they're 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: specifically speaking about access to inappropriate content. We pick up 9 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: the conversation as it's hosted by Chavon Hunt. 10 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 2: Justin, I know I always start our conversations with this 11 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 2: statement of fact. But you have five children. I have six, 12 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 2: So every time I get. 13 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 3: There, although on any day it could change depending on 14 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 3: whether I'm feeling frisky or whether I've had enough of 15 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 3: the kids. 16 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 2: You know, I always, whatever it is, it's more than two, 17 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 2: so I always mention it. Have your children ever stumbled 18 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 2: across something inappropriate? 19 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 3: Not only have they stumbled across inappropriate content? I mean, 20 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 3: we know, we just know the research tells us. Now, 21 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 3: of course, you're not allowed to ask an eight year 22 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 3: old or a ten year old whether they've been viewing 23 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 3: pornography that's not ethical. 24 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 4: Researchers can't go and ask that question. 25 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 3: But when we ask people who are eighteen and above 26 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 3: at what age they were first exposed to pornography, we 27 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 3: know that they're being exposed. 28 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 4: The great thing for me is that my kids are 29 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 4: all girls. 30 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 3: Girls are less likely than boys to be exposed to 31 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 3: explicit material. Only one has been and she was most 32 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 3: unhappy about it, and the other ones are really open 33 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:32,639 Speaker 3: about talking about it and they haven't been, which is great, 34 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 3: but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The frightening thing 35 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 3: for me, though, is not that they've been exposed to 36 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 3: explicit material, but that they've been pressured and coerced to 37 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 3: provide explicit material. Fortunately, my children have got me for 38 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 3: a dad, so they've heard the story, they've heard the drill, 39 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:52,559 Speaker 3: they know what to do, and they've come and talked 40 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 3: to me about it, and they've made good decisions that 41 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 3: have preserved their safety and their digital reputations. But boy, boy, 42 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 3: you know when when you have your daughter come to 43 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 3: you and say you need to see these text messages 44 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 3: that this person has sent me, or I screenshot of 45 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 3: this snapchat, or you know, here's what's been happening on 46 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 3: Instagram and they show you the coercion that's coming from 47 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 3: boys who are. 48 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 4: Thirteen years old. 49 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 3: Or when your daughter jumps in the car off she's 50 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 3: met up with some friends in the mall and she says, ah, yeah, 51 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 3: so guess what. I just got a message. I met 52 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 3: this friend of a friend in the mall. I Facebook 53 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 3: friended him on the spot because he's a friend of 54 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 3: a friend and I know my friend and trusts my friend, 55 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 3: and so therefore they're all friends. And you know, facebooks 56 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 3: change the definition of friend, so now we're friends. I've 57 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 3: known him for five minutes and he's already asked me 58 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 3: how far I'll go or whether I'll send him a nude. 59 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 4: You know this sort of stuff. 60 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 3: It's so present, and a lot of parents are saying, oh, 61 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 3: and it doesn't happen to my kids. Well, you're not 62 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 3: talking to your kids number one, or maybe your kids 63 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 3: are lucky number two or number three. You're not aware 64 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 3: of it because you don't think it's out there, because 65 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 3: it's not happening to you. But let's take a step 66 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 3: back and remember that you are forty plus years old 67 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 3: and the people who are doing this are not looking 68 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 3: for you, they're looking for your kids. So the materials 69 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 3: out there, the risks are out there, and it happens 70 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 3: not to everybody, but it certainly happens across the board. 71 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 3: This is not unusual behavior. 72 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 2: Can I ask Justin the daughter that was exposed to 73 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 2: the content, how old was she at that time? 74 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, she was in her mid teens. 75 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: Okay. And when you speak about the drill that you 76 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,239 Speaker 2: give them as a parent, you touched on it there. 77 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: At what age did you start the drill? 78 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 3: This is a controversial question. I get in trouble consistently 79 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 3: for suggesting that we start much earlier than most parents 80 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 3: are comfortable hearing me suggests that that's the age that 81 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 3: it should be. So based on evidence, it seems that 82 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 3: children are being exposed to pornography on average, male and female. 83 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 3: The average age of exposure is around ten. It might 84 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 3: be nine, it might be eleven. We kind of don't 85 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 3: know because hard to get good data. Julie might shed 86 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 3: some light on this. I don't know if you've seen 87 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 3: data that I haven't seen on this, but it seems 88 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 3: to be about ten. 89 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 5: Ish for both Australian boys. 90 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 3: Eleven years old, right, so somewhere around there and girls 91 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 3: will be older. We have girls being exposed at much ages. 92 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 3: And when I go into schools and give talks on 93 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 3: this topic, I take a snap poll and I just 94 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 3: say to the boys. Usually they're all, you know, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. 95 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, well, just put up your hand. Was 96 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 3: it younger than ten? And a handful of hands will 97 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 3: go up. 98 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 4: Was it ten? Was eleven? 99 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 3: And usually it's somewhere around at eleven or twelve year 100 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 3: age group, but there's plenty that are still putting up 101 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 3: their hands at younger ages. So I recommend to parents 102 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 3: that they start talking about body safety and you know, 103 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 3: just what bodies are for and how bodies work, and 104 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 3: using appropriate names for anatomy from the start. That they 105 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 3: start talking about intimacy from probably around about the age 106 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 3: of six ish. 107 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 4: Now I'm being really general here. 108 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 3: Every family is going to be different, and that they 109 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 3: start talking about procreation with more specificity around seven or eight, 110 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 3: and that they start talking about pornography before their kids 111 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 3: are in grade five, because my guess is grade five 112 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 3: is about the age of a eleven, which means that 113 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 3: when my kids are going into grade five, I want 114 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 3: them to know what pornography is. 115 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 4: I want them to know what explicit. 116 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 3: Content is, and I want them to I mean, the 117 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 3: drill goes like this, Hey, have you ever heard of 118 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 3: something called pornography? And kids will usually say no at 119 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,119 Speaker 3: the age of ten, even if they have heard of it, 120 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 3: because they don't want. 121 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 4: To tell their parents that they've heard of it. 122 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 3: And so we might spend a minute or two talking 123 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 3: about what pornography is, and then the question will be 124 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 3: I know it probably sounds a little bit weird, but 125 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 3: there are some people who are interested in viewing pornography. 126 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 4: You know, there's curiosity. Have you heard of. 127 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 3: It happening in your school? So I start really wide, 128 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 3: you know, is it happening at school? Do you hear 129 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 3: anyone talking about it? And then I bring it in. 130 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 3: I'll say, have any of your friends ever talked about it? 131 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 3: Have any of your friends ever been exposed to it? 132 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 3: Have they ever been involved with it? And then I'll 133 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 3: bring it even closer to home and I say, have 134 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 3: any of your friends ever talked to you about it? 135 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 3: Have you ever been shown it? Have you ever searched 136 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 3: for it yourself? And so we're starting nice and wide. 137 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 3: They feel comfortable and they're comfortable talking in generalities, and 138 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 3: slowly but surely we bring it into a nice specific point. 139 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 3: And whether they have or not, kind of it only 140 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 3: matters from the point of view that you might change 141 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 3: what you're talking about. But what matters most is what 142 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 3: happens next, and that is when you say to your child, So, 143 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 3: if it ever did happen, what do you think is 144 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 3: the best way to respond? Would you be willing to 145 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 3: come to me and talk about it? Why do you 146 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 3: think I'd be concerned about it? Where do you think 147 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 3: the best place to go is to discuss things like this? 148 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 3: And so you're really trying to empower them to come 149 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 3: up with some good rules for themselves to make good decisions, 150 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 3: not if, but when they're exposed. Whether it's in grade 151 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 3: five or whether it's in grade nine, the likelihood is 152 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 3: that they'll be exposed, and so we're pre arming them. 153 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 3: And that's the drill. As they get older, once they're 154 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 3: in high school, you start talking about snapchat and Tumblr 155 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 3: and Twitter and Facebook and Instagram, and you start saying, 156 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 3: you know, people might start approaching you. If somebody approaches you, 157 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 3: these are the sorts of questions that they'll ask you. 158 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 3: They might ask you what you're wearing, or I might 159 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 3: ask you what you've got underneath what you're wearing. You know, 160 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 3: these are the kind of normal progressions that these conversations take. 161 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 4: How would you respond? 162 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 3: And you teach them don't delete this. This is important 163 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 3: that you keep it. We need to have evidence. And 164 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 3: then you teach them that you must come and talk 165 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 3: to a responsible adult. And this is how we kind 166 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 3: of guide them through this stage, this phase. 167 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 2: So, Julie, what Justin's saying that's resonating with you and 168 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: what your experience is at the Commission. 169 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I'm actually thinking about the talk that I 170 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 5: need to have with my kids right now, like, for instance, 171 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 5: my five year old twins. I probably shouldn't be talking 172 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 5: about the privates in terms of fruit, the peach, the 173 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 5: banana and mommy's pineapple, So maybe we need to talk 174 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 5: about real anatomy. I look at the work I do 175 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 5: at the Commission also as a lens of a parent, 176 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 5: because parents are the cohort that we're really trained to reach, 177 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 5: the most difficult cohort to reach. They're busy, they may 178 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 5: be handing over the eyepad is the digital babysitter, and 179 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 5: they may not be engaged and involved in their kids 180 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 5: online lives. When my eldest daughter was five years old, 181 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 5: she was enamored with my Little Pony and we went 182 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 5: on YouTube and we're looking for my little pony and 183 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 5: we found a different kind of pony ride, if you 184 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 5: catch my drift. So kids can stumble upon pornography, and 185 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 5: it's not just that there's a proliferation of pornography or 186 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 5: violent content out there, it's that it's incredibly violent. A 187 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 5: lot of it is escalating. So it's not the garden 188 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 5: variety pornography that we used to steal from, you know, 189 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 5: dad's penthouse under the bed. There is wide ready access 190 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 5: to vast amounts of very violent, degrading and concerning pornography 191 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 5: that could impact our children's development. So yes, it's definitely 192 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 5: a concern for the commission. Then when you get to 193 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 5: the tween and teenage, of course, you know teenagers are 194 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 5: programmed to be curious and take risks, and yes they'll 195 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 5: be they'll be looking for it. And so I wholeheartedly 196 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 5: agree with justin that we need to start the conversations 197 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 5: with our kids early and often we're trying to get 198 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 5: them to develop more cyber judgment, better resilience, critical thinking skills, 199 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 5: but to also have those open and honest conversations so 200 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 5: that if they come across something that makes them uncomfortable 201 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 5: or is confronting, they'll come talk to you or another 202 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 5: trusted adult. 203 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: Justin I just want to bring you in there, because 204 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: one of the things that I keep thinking of when 205 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 2: we talk about you know, if we're talking about the 206 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 2: under sixes, and like your daughter's coming across. Luckily they 207 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 2: were with you when that happened, but I can imagine 208 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 2: if children don't understand if they're very young and they 209 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 2: see something like pornography, regardless of whether it's violent or 210 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: if it's just sex, that for a young child that 211 00:09:55,160 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 2: could be quite upsetting. And I'm wondering if do you 212 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 2: have any advice for how parents can talk to their 213 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 2: child once that exposure has happened. 214 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 3: It really depends on the context, so it's hard to 215 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 3: give general advice. It depends on the age of the child, 216 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 3: It depends on where they were when they were exposed, 217 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 3: how they felt about it. Most parents will tell me 218 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 3: that when they've talked to their younger children that the 219 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 3: kids will often say things like I kind of felt 220 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 3: a bit icky that's probably the best descriptor. It just 221 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 3: kind of felt a bit inside. But there's also for 222 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 3: many children, not for all, but for many children, there's 223 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 3: also a real curiosity. And so from a parenting perspective, 224 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 3: what we want to do is encourage the conversation, which 225 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 3: means we can't shut it down. We can't be critical, 226 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 3: we can't be angry. We might be inside seeing that 227 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 3: there are people out there who are literally targeting children 228 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 3: with this material for whatever inappropriate and foul and sick reason, 229 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 3: it's just not okay. But being angry in that moment 230 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 3: at our child or at our child's friends parents who 231 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 3: had the sleepover where this occurred and didn't supervise appropriately, 232 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 3: there's no point going there and doing that in the 233 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 3: moment with our children. What we instead want to do 234 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 3: is ask ourselves a couple of questions. Number one, who 235 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 3: do I want to be the sex educator of my child? 236 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 3: Do I want the Internet to be in charge of 237 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 3: my child's sex education? Or do I want to be 238 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 3: in charge? And if it's going to me, then we 239 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 3: want to start a conversation. And my number one advice 240 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 3: to parents is number one, always be calm, and number 241 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 3: two be led by your child's curiosity. If your child 242 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 3: doesn't want to talk about it, if they're not curious, 243 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 3: if they'd rather just put it behind them, then that's fine. 244 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 3: Let it go and say I'm always here to talk 245 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 3: and set up a couple of rules to help them, 246 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 3: not demanding next time, this is what I expect of you, 247 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 3: but instead, well, if this happens again, where do you 248 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 3: think is the best way to go? What's the best 249 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 3: way to deal with it? So again we're trying to 250 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 3: empower them rather than be authoritarian towards them. They're much 251 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 3: more likely who think it through maturely, even at a 252 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 3: young age, if we're not in their ear telling them 253 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 3: how it's got to be. And if I ever catch 254 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 3: you doing this again, because what happens is that forbidden 255 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 3: fruit actually becomes quite tantalizing, and all of a sudden 256 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 3: they start thinking, even if they are only six or seven, 257 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 3: don't worry, Dad, you won't catch me doing that again. 258 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 3: I'll be much trickier and sneakier next. I just won't 259 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 3: tell you. So we just want to keep the communication 260 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 3: channels open and ask them questions, be guided by their curiosity, 261 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 3: stay calm. That would be the simplest advice i'd give. 262 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 2: You're listening to kindling conversation and this is part of 263 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: our Safety Net series Keeping Our Kids Safe Online, and 264 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 2: we're speaking with doctor Justin Coilson, who's a parenting educator 265 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 2: and author, and Julie Inman Grant, who's the Children's e 266 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 2: Safety Commissioner. Julie, you were nodding vigorously then when Justin 267 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 2: was talking about how we might talk to our kids 268 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 2: once they've been exposed this way, and after all we've 269 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 2: talked about this seems like a stupid question, but I'm 270 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 2: going to ask it anyway. Can we actually have things 271 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 2: in place to prevent these happening? I know we don't 272 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: know that we can completely prevent it, but are there 273 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 2: safety measures as parents that we can put in place 274 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 2: that is some kind of protection? 275 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 5: Right? Well, there are a couple of things there. My 276 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 5: office has been charged by the government with looking into 277 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 5: suggested strategies for government in terms of how to tackle 278 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:31,599 Speaker 5: this issue. The other thing that parents should do, aside 279 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 5: from sitting down and talking to their kids and being 280 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 5: engaged in their online lives, knowing what they're doing, who 281 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 5: they're talking to, what they're they're looking at is when 282 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 5: they're setting up setting up programs for them, particularly at 283 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 5: the younger ages, making sure they're setting up the privacy 284 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,839 Speaker 5: settings and the parental controls. There are technology solutions that 285 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 5: can help parents ensure that their kids are having safer experiences, 286 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 5: but I'd also warned that technology in and of itself 287 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 5: is never a panacea. You know, you're never going to 288 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 5: totally prevent access because technological protections can be circumvented and 289 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 5: you just don't want to have that set in forget 290 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 5: mentality and that resilience and critical thinking that we want 291 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 5: to develop in our children so that they know how 292 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 5: to react appropriately is a really important defense. So you know, 293 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 5: there is there are some forms of prevention, but again, 294 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 5: be engagement is going to be really important. I also 295 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 5: want to note that these conversations are really awkward, and 296 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 5: sometimes they don't happen because parents don't know how to 297 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 5: have that bird's in the bees conversation with the technical 298 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 5: mannual anymore. And thanks to doctor Colson, he spent a 299 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 5: lot of time providing some resources on e safety dot 300 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 5: gov dot IU on a wide range of topics, including 301 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 5: what to do when someone shows your child pornography? Six 302 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 5: strategies for when your child accidentally finds online pornography, and 303 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 5: then how to talk about pornography with children as young 304 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 5: as eight, for kids that are eight to twelve, and 305 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 5: then for teenagers, because you're obviously having very different conversations 306 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 5: at different levels of child's development. 307 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, just listening to what Julie has said, 308 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 3: something struck me that I really want to emphasize. I'm 309 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 3: a supporter of using appropriate safeguards to protect children in 310 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 3: the same way that I'm a supporter of fencing the pool. 311 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 3: You know, it keeps children out of obvious and immediate danger, 312 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 3: but you can't fence the ocean, and relying on technology 313 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 3: to keep your children safe will simply well, it will 314 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 3: ultimately fail because they'll be at a friend's house who 315 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 3: doesn't have the same protections, or they'll be at school, 316 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 3: or they'll be on the bus, or they'll be somewhere. 317 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 3: The number of parents who have come and spoken to 318 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 3: me after a seminar that I've run a presentation where 319 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 3: and said, you know, my eight year old was on 320 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 3: the school bus and one of the year six boys 321 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 3: said look at this and stuck something in front of 322 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 3: him that was violent and degrading and explicit, and it's 323 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 3: affected him. Or my eleven year old was at a 324 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 3: sleepover and the parents went to bed, and the kids 325 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 3: pulled out the iPads and they started looking up rude words. 326 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 3: And it was innocent when it began, But now my 327 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 3: eleven year old feels sick and doesn't want to see 328 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 3: his friends anymore because it's just made him feel so awful. 329 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 4: And I've got, and I'm sure. 330 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 3: Julie has well countless stories of good parents and good 331 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 3: kids who have just been had this thrust upon them 332 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 3: in spite of the very best conversations and the very 333 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 3: best intentions. So no matter how hard we try, we 334 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 3: need to be aware that it's almost guaranteed. It's not guaranteed, 335 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 3: but it's almost guaranteed to happen, and when it does, 336 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 3: ideally we'll have already had the conversation with our children. 337 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 4: Now. 338 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 3: I'm not suggesting, by the way, if somebody's listening with 339 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 3: a four year old that they say, right, we need 340 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 3: to talk about this now. Actually, my number one advice 341 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 3: for parents of young children is have every serious conversation 342 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 3: about pornography, about drugs, about sex and intimacy. But whatever 343 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 3: you pick the topic. All serious conversations need to be 344 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 3: had at least once by the age of two. Not 345 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 3: that the children will understand what you're saying. 346 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 4: But you've got you've had, but that. 347 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 3: You've had practice starting to talk about this stuff out loud, 348 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 3: because when the moment arrives, if you haven't had some 349 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 3: level of practice, it's it's actually kind of hard to 350 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 3: do it. As Julie said, it's a bit tricky, but 351 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 3: you can't fence the ocean. So have the conversation in 352 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 3: an age appropriate way. You know, the resources are at 353 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 3: the e Safety dot gov dot au website. Have the 354 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 3: appropriate conversation with your children and let them lead it 355 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 3: and follow their curiosity and pre arm them. 356 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 2: We've got so much to think about just in this 357 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 2: one episode. Justin, Julie, thank you so much for coming in. 358 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 4: It's been a pleasure. 359 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: To find more resources jump online at Happy Families dot 360 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: com dot au. And if you're interested in having doctor 361 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 1: Justin Coulson speak for your organization or event, you can 362 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: find those details at Justinculson dot com.