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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, I think parents just need to be aware and

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Speaker 2: just clock when our kids are coming to us and

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Speaker 2: telling us that things are happening to them online.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the scars of our show my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Well, every Wednesday I get to have this valuable conversation

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Speaker 3: with somebody who knows a whole lot about stuff more

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Speaker 3: than me, to help us to make our families happier.

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Speaker 3: And today a conversation that just has to be had.

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Speaker 3: I cannot tell you how I'm passionate isn't the right word,

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Speaker 3: but how seriously, how sober I am about a conversation.

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Speaker 1: Like this kids.

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Speaker 3: In a recent report, between nine and twelve, there's been

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Speaker 3: a spike in kids between nine and twelve sending nudes

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Speaker 3: using phones and social media and computers, iPads, that sort

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Speaker 3: of stuff, with most of them actually saying in surveys

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Speaker 3: that they think it's normal. Let me just say that again,

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Speaker 3: kids nine to twelve think that it's normal to send

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Speaker 3: new duds. We've got a problem in our society at

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Speaker 3: the moment when it comes to the way that our

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Speaker 3: kids are using digital devices. And joining me for today's

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Speaker 3: podcast is Commissioner Julie inman grant. Julie heads up the

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Speaker 3: Australian E Safety Commission. It's a federal well, it's an

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Speaker 3: independent body that the federal government has tasked to help

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Speaker 3: us to keep people safe online, both children and adults.

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Speaker 3: Julie is a mum to three kids herself and is

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Speaker 3: just We have many years of history and wonderful, wonderful

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Speaker 3: conversations and I'm so delighted to be able to have

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Speaker 3: it on the podcast today. Commissioner Julie in mcgrant, Welcome

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Speaker 3: to the Happy Families Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Colson IF and Justin IF. I may so happy

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Speaker 2: to be here.

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Speaker 3: This is a really serious conversation and as much as

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Speaker 3: you and I enjoy talking about all kinds of things technology,

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Speaker 3: this new report really I don't want to make parents

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Speaker 3: get scared. That's not the purpose of this conversation. It's

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Speaker 3: actually to talk about what's going on and focus on solutions.

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Speaker 3: Before we get to the report, can we just briefly

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Speaker 3: talk about what the Australian a Safety Commission does and

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Speaker 3: what you do is the Commissioner just I mean a

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Speaker 3: lot of families won't even know that this branch of

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Speaker 3: is it a branch of the government, No, this independent

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Speaker 3: body is where it.

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Speaker 2: Yep, we're an independent statutory authority. So we're a regulatory

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Speaker 2: agency and we're the first and right now only regulatory

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Speaker 2: agency in the world that solely looks after our citizens

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Speaker 2: online safety needs. So we approach things in three different ways.

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Speaker 2: We are a regulator, but I often talk about the

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Speaker 2: three p's prevention, protection and proactive change. So in terms

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Speaker 2: of prevention, if you go onto our website e safety

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Speaker 2: dot gov dot Au and you look at our research,

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Speaker 2: everything is evidence based. We're working with various groups, whether

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Speaker 2: they're vulnerable, disadvantage groups or young people themselves, with parents

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Speaker 2: and others to make sure that we're basically providing online

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Speaker 2: safety education, information and programs from cradle to grave. We

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Speaker 2: know that forty two percent of two year olds in

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Speaker 2: Australia have access to a digital device that's usually you know,

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Speaker 2: an iPad for entertainment, but by the time they're four

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Speaker 2: years old it's up to ninety four percent.

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Speaker 3: Julie, A couple of weeks ago, Safer Internet Day occurred

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Speaker 3: and you released a report that had a whole lot

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Speaker 3: of statistics around what parents are doing. Parents aren't seeking

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Speaker 3: information until their children are in trouble online, and you're

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Speaker 3: trying to make this a proactive thing, and I find

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Speaker 3: the same thing. I'll show up at schools to talk

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Speaker 3: about keeping its safe online, talk about tweens, teens and screens,

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Speaker 3: and the audience is a reasonably sized but not huge.

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Speaker 3: But the people who are in the audience are usually

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Speaker 3: the ones who are saying, we need help because something's happened.

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Speaker 3: So what did you discover in your Safer Internet Day report?

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Speaker 2: Well, there was actually some good news and some bad news.

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Speaker 2: So one of the great things about having any Safety

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Speaker 2: Commission in the fact that we've been doing both parents

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Speaker 2: studies and new studies over the past seven years, we're

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Speaker 2: actually able to establish a baseline and see where we've

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Speaker 2: actually made some impact. So and one of the first

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Speaker 2: campaigns we did nationwide was around the start the Chat campaign.

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Speaker 2: It was really all about parents talking to their kids

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Speaker 2: about what's happening online. It was about co playing and

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Speaker 2: co viewing and you know, to kind of demystify kids

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Speaker 2: technology use for them. And what we found was that

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Speaker 2: because parents have started these conversations with kids, kids are

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Speaker 2: more likely to seek out help from their parents by

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Speaker 2: almost a fifteen percent increase from twenty seventeen. We've also

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Speaker 2: been targeting young people directly and working with young people

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Speaker 2: on co design to make sure the messages are authentic,

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Speaker 2: and we found that kids are being empowered to use

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Speaker 2: what we call user empowerment tools on the social media platforms.

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Speaker 2: They're blocking people, they're reporting, they're muting, they're using all

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Speaker 2: these conversations. What we also identified is with this research,

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Speaker 2: we talked to both parents and their children about negative

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Speaker 2: online experiences, and what we found that almost sixty percent

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Speaker 2: of teens age fourteen to seventeen had been exposed to

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Speaker 2: what we call harmful content online, while only forty percent

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Speaker 2: of their parents were aware. Now this was content like

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Speaker 2: drug taking, suicidal ideation, incitement to self harm and healthy eating,

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Speaker 2: gory images, and violent sexual material. Basically, parents are more

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Speaker 2: aware about cyberbulling and other kind of negative things that

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Speaker 2: might be happening to their kids online, but kids aren't

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Speaker 2: as readily talking to their parents about some of these

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Speaker 2: more stignified, I guess, stigmatizing topics or things that could

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Speaker 2: get them in trouble. But we also found that while

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Speaker 2: nearly seventy percent of the kids who were treated in

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Speaker 2: a hurtful or nasty way online or cyberbullied or as

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Speaker 2: what young people often say is that we were socially

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Speaker 2: excluded or there was drama or rumors. Of kids told

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Speaker 2: their parents, but then when we asked their parents what

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Speaker 2: experiences they thought their children had had, only about fifty

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Speaker 2: one percent of parents remember being aware of that issue.

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Speaker 2: And what it sort of pointed out is that kids

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Speaker 2: are living their lives online and they don't make a

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Speaker 2: distinction between their online and offline lives. So you know,

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Speaker 2: drama and rumors and all of this online billing can

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Speaker 2: be very distressing to them. But I think as parents

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Speaker 2: we kind of compartmentalize and may not have it, may

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Speaker 2: not have really registered with as many parents that this

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Speaker 2: was causing our kids serious emotional and mental distress.

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Speaker 1: I think of that just the whole idea of being present.

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Speaker 3: When you say that, it's like, yeah, I'm listening, but

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Speaker 3: I'm not listening, because if we truly inhabited our child's world,

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Speaker 3: we would actually I think we'd be more likely to

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Speaker 3: feel the loss that they've felt, that loss.

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Speaker 1: Of trust or.

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Speaker 3: The sense that the sense that something's happened to them

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Speaker 3: that's significant and that they need help with. There's a

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Speaker 3: psychological term called disenfranchised grief, and disenfranchised grief is basically,

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Speaker 3: I'm grieving because something bad has happened to me and

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Speaker 3: I'm struggling with it. But the experience that I'm having

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Speaker 3: is ultimately unseen by the people around me that I

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Speaker 3: needed to be seen by. And it sounds to me

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Speaker 3: like you're kind of indicating that that kind of an experience.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it does feel like a little bit of disenfranchisement.

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Speaker 2: And I guess the question is, and you're the psychological specialists,

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Speaker 2: but you know, does it just require parents stopping and saying, Okay, well,

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Speaker 2: how did this make you feel? And how can I

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Speaker 2: help you? So again, I think it's probably a very

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Speaker 2: basic conversation, but I think parents just need to be

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Speaker 2: aware and just clock when our kids are coming to

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Speaker 2: us and telling us that things are happening to them online.

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Speaker 3: We could talk about this for days, but I think

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Speaker 3: in the interesting time, and given that this is the

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Speaker 3: podcast for the time, poor parent who really just wants

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Speaker 3: answers now a couple of things to bring all this together.

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Speaker 1: Typically, when we as parents are thinking.

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Speaker 3: About what's safe for our kids online. We're thinking about

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Speaker 3: cyber bullying. We're thinking about making sure that I've seen nuds.

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Speaker 3: But because of this conversation you've thrown in, there's all

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Speaker 3: of the violence. There's the breathtaking social awfulness that occurs

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Speaker 3: that you wouldn't necessarily call bullying. It's just kids that

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Speaker 3: are being awful to each other. You've talked about the

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Speaker 3: suicidal ideation and the anorexia and all the kinds of

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Speaker 3: sites that lead to self harm. There's the grooming, there's

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Speaker 3: the exclusion and so on.

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Speaker 1: All of this is there.

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Speaker 3: And from what I picked up from your conversation, Julie,

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Speaker 3: you're saying talk early, talk often, be present, Teach them

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Speaker 3: to block and mute and use whatever other community buttons

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Speaker 3: are available to protect themselves. And remember that telling the

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Speaker 3: kids that if something happens, you're going to take the

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Speaker 3: phone off them is not going.

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Speaker 2: To work, no, I think, And this is what this

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Speaker 2: research from Safer Internet Day sort of surface stuff. We

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Speaker 2: need to find the right balance, and every parent is

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Speaker 2: going to have a different parenting style. But between letting

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Speaker 2: our children be independent, have some freedom online and creating

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Speaker 2: those right expectations, and of course the way that we

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Speaker 2: manage a young person's technology use. The younger they are,

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Speaker 2: the more restrictive we need to be. But we need

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Speaker 2: to teach them those good habits early. So some other

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Speaker 2: things that parents can do, they can set parental controls.

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Speaker 2: You can come to our e safety guide at e

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Speaker 2: safety dot dot au. We've got a list of the

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Speaker 2: top games and apps and social media sites that kids

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Speaker 2: are using and it talks about how you can set

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Speaker 2: their privacy stings or parental controls. Of course, there are

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Speaker 2: a range of other parental controls that you can buy externally,

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Speaker 2: or even what we call native controls like screen time

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Speaker 2: that exist on the iPhones and the iPads that you

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Speaker 2: can utilize. But have your kids use technology in open

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Speaker 2: areas of the house so that you can look over

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Speaker 2: the shoulder see what they're doing. You can see their expressions.

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Speaker 2: That goes for kids who are gaming. Now you think

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Speaker 2: about popular games like Fortnite, you've got one hundred different people.

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Speaker 2: You've got what we call a commingled environment, which may

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Speaker 2: include some aggressive adults or foul mouth teenagers along with

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Speaker 2: your you know, twelve or thirteen year old. You want

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Speaker 2: to actually hear what's happening, rather than you know, being

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Speaker 2: closed off. So you need to be present. You don't

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Speaker 2: have to be there every moment, but just be aware

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Speaker 2: of what they're doing. Be really careful about letting kids use,

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Speaker 2: you know, their their devices in the privacy of their

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Speaker 2: own bedrooms and bathrooms. I know, in our household, of course,

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Speaker 2: a lot of schoolwork does happen, but our child comes

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Speaker 2: in and plugs in, you know, charges her devices over

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Speaker 2: night in our bedroom, so that you know, she has

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Speaker 2: to come back in if she plans to not sleep

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Speaker 2: and use the technology.

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Speaker 1: Does she ever call you commissioner as she does it?

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Speaker 2: She does not, She does not. I get the occasional

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Speaker 2: teenage eye roll. Yeah yeah, yeah, mom, Yeah, like you

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Speaker 2: really know what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Mom, that's right. So like you're the a safety commission

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Speaker 1: or anything. What would you know? I get the same

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Speaker 1: thing with my kids. Yeah no.

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Speaker 2: And but it's important because to know how kids respond

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Speaker 2: to different things and to know what kind of works.

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Speaker 2: To also understand what parents are actually experiencing. And this

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Speaker 2: is one of the challenges that we have justin is

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Speaker 2: in reaching enough parents. We tend to see the people

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Speaker 2: that come to the webinars and the seminars, or the

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Speaker 2: parents that are already really engaged. It's the really busy

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Speaker 2: time for parents that we want to reach so that

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Speaker 2: the iPad or the telephone doesn't become the digital babysitter,

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Speaker 2: because there are things that can go wrong even if

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Speaker 2: you have parental controls on. So we can't be there

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Speaker 2: at every moment, but we can talk to our kids.

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Speaker 2: We can help them build their digital resilience. We can

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Speaker 2: help teach them critical reasoning skills, and I think that's

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Speaker 2: the most important thing. Whether it's a scam, whether it's

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Speaker 2: fake news, whether it's a friend using an imposter or

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Speaker 2: a fake account, whether it's it's online grooming of children,

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Speaker 2: these are all social engineering tactics. We need to teach

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Speaker 2: our kids to question everything before they click a link,

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Speaker 2: before they respond to someone who they may not know,

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Speaker 2: and certainly before they go meet someone in person that

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Speaker 2: they may have only met online.

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Speaker 1: Julie, we need to wrap this up.

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Speaker 3: I know that you're preparing for another very important meaning

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Speaker 3: just to say, if people want more information, so that

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Speaker 3: you can reach more families, help more people, and deal

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Speaker 3: with the significant challenges that the online will does present

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Speaker 3: to our kids, where should they go and what can

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Speaker 3: they find?

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Speaker 2: Well? Our National Online Safety Hub is at eesafety dot

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Speaker 2: gov dot au. We offer tons of free webinars for

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Speaker 2: parents and for young people, so look those up, check

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Speaker 2: out our e safety Guide, and then we have a

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Speaker 2: whole set of parent resources, including some great resources that you.

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Speaker 1: Helped us develop.

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Speaker 2: Justin around how do you talk to your kids about

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Speaker 2: online pornography under the age of eight, between the ages

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Speaker 2: of eight and twelve as tweens and then hopefully you're

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Speaker 2: not leaving it to the teenage years, but also for teenagers. Again,

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Speaker 2: I think the goal should be let's get ahead of

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Speaker 2: this and let's sort of anticipate what our kids might

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Speaker 2: be experiencing and have these conversations and make sure that

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Speaker 2: we're part of our kids online lives the way we

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Speaker 2: are there every day lives.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, such an important conversation.

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Speaker 3: Commissioner Julie Inman Grant from the Australian Ee Safety Commission,

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Speaker 3: thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: On the podcast today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 3: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruhland from

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Speaker 3: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and if

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Speaker 3: you'd like more info about making your family happy out

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Speaker 3: We will link to everything that Julie's talked about in

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Speaker 3: the show notes, and you can also visit happy families

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Speaker 3: dot com dot au o